Conference 7.286::digital

I know this was discussed in another note, but I couldn't find it before I
started this topic for the anonymous noter.

If I remember correctly, the other note stated that other employers felt that
Digital employees were not motivated and couldn't adapt to other cultures.

Obviously, this is a very broad brush to be painting 100K+ people with.

Bob

    Hmmm ...   Well, if Digital really did send out a lot of "deadwood" via
    TFSO, isn't this the result one might expect?  On the other hand, if
    Digital mostly TFSO'd employees that were decidedly *not* "deadwood"
    this would be a very surprising result.  I expect that the truth lies
    somewhere inbetween.
    
    On the plus side, it could be that by posting profits from here on,
    recruiters and others may have a different opinion about the hiring of
    current Digital employees.  Thus, one way to look at it is that if the
    talent here makes Digital more successful, employment opportunities
    outside will get better.  I'm guessing that folks will tend to want to 
    hire talent from successful companies.
    
    Steve
    

    Sounds to me like it's time for a new recruiter.  I get at *least* one
    call a week, so someone out there's hiring ex-Deccies.  I remember a
    couple companies in Dallas, years ago that told a recruiter "don't bring 
    me any blacks or women".
    
    On the the bright side...makes it easy to figure out what companies you
    wouldn't want to work for anyway.
    
    								Tex

My wife, who has contracted for Digital and other companies, says she's
heard similar things from the agencies and recruiters she works with.  I
heard it directly from a neighbor who is also a recruiter.  The recurring
theme is that "ex-Digital employees have obsolete skills and an inflated
sense of their worth".

				Steve

    Anecdotal evidence from the other side of the coin:
    
    Over the holidays I had the pleasure of meeting, at a social gathering, 
    a personnel mgr for a local (e.MA) hi-tech related (power supply) company. 
    When she found out I worked at DEC, she mentioned that she and her company 
    have a very high regard for DECcies and ex-DECcies, and that they've been 
    very pleased with the results of recent hiring from both categories.
    
    A refreshing change from the typical responses in the recent past: "Oh, you
    work for DEC? That's a shame..." 
    
    Some balance, FWIW...

    >	Have the previous "deadwood" types made it harder for digital
    >	employees (former and current) to find jobs.
	
    According to an acquaintance who runs his own business, "yes". His view
    is that SOME of the very early people who ejected with big packages
    sought employment with firms he deals with. As you might suspect their
    performance (SOME) was far less than stellar. He knows of one or two
    cases where this lead to the ex-Digit getting fired for exhibiting
    unacceptable ("all-talk-no-substance-or-action") behavior. This has
    left them with a sour feeling about ex-Digits which gets conveyed to
    other business associates. Bad news travels fast.
    
    Individuals I know who were good employees and got laid off more
    recently have indicated that this anti-Digital-people sentiment is
    rather pervasive in New England. Headhunters and potential employers
    they've worked with elsewhere didn't seem to have this same view.
        
    >	Its too bad that I have to go on the reputation of others and
    >	not my own.

    Agreed, but if really want to (or need to) leave the company, there are
    things you can do. 
    
    First, (I agree with a previous note) get a new headhunter. A good one
    probably knows the companies that have anti-Digital sentiments and can
    undoubtedly steer you to others.
    
    Second, if you write to potential employers, don't send a resume. Send
    a good, aggressive letter and outline your experience and
    accomplishments which show why you'd make an excellent employee. Shoot
    for an interview based on your accomplishments, not on your resume. You
    will undoubtedly be asked for a resume ... stay focused on the
    objective (getting an interview) and offer to bring the resume in.
    It probably won't work often, but you only need it to work once. If you
    get in front of somebody and convince them that you can do the job,
    where you worked won't matter.
    
    Third, I wouldn't want to work for a company who is so brain dead that
    they aren't smart enough to realize that all Digits and ex-Digits are
    unique individuals with their own pluses and minuses. Scratch them off
    your list.
    
    

    Agree with .3;  Get a new recruiter.  It seems ironic to me that just a
    few short notes back (3639), the discussion focused on not only the
    opportunities available to DECcies in the outside world, but also the
    fact that many folks have taken adavantage of them.  Is this a classic
    case of being in the right place at the right time?
    

    
    
    
        Move out west, nobody knows what Digital makes out here.
    
        That's if you can tolerate earthquakes..
    
        oh...get a new headhunter, your's ain't helping you a bit.
    
    

    re.. back a few..
    
    while a few headhunter types have expressed negative opinions about 
    current/ex DECcies value in the marketplace..i've had the opposite 
    experience(s)..

    RE: .6  
    
    > Second, if you write to potential employers, don't send a resume. Send
    > a good, aggressive letter and outline your experience and
    > accomplishments which show why you'd make an excellent employee. Shoot
    > for an interview based on your accomplishments, not on your resume. 
    
    This is absolutely correct, IMO.
    
    Before I was hired by Digital 13 years ago, I read several books about
    job hunting and interviewing - and the books stated in very definite
    terms to NOT send out resumes first.  Employers can wallpaper their
    offices with the piles of resumes they get.  It starts to become
    meaningless for them after awhile.
    
    The books said to put all the effort into getting an interview with
    the person who can hire you, then bring the resume to the meeting with
    you.  The books also stressed things like sending thank-you letters (as
    part of the follow-up to confirm the time of the interview.)
    
    Within Digital, if you speak to a hiring manager and get an initial
    interview (prior-to-the-formal-interviews) arranged, they often want 
    a resume e-mailed to them before you get there.  If at all possible,
    it's still good to bring it with you to the initial (prior-to-the-
    formal-interview-process) meeting with the hiring manager rather than
    mailing it.
    
    Outside Digital, it's probably always a good idea to bring the resume
    with you.  This way, you aren't one of a pile of resumes - you're a
    person with a face and a personality who also has excellent <whatever>
    which are spelled out on the resume you provide in-person.

    I guess the problem may depend on where you're at because in Michigan
    they love ex-DECies.  The mid-west headhunter I have always has leads
    with companies looking for ex-DECies.  HP is a particular one...they 
    have a lot of our former employees and it's working out well.
    
    As for the headhunters saying that the ex-Digits didn't stay in that
    job for more than a year...
    so what?
    
    If it doesn't work out, move on to something that does...
    
    Just about every ex-Digit I know has left their first job within 6-8
    months to find a great deal of happiness and contentment with the next
    one they took.  
    
    Jobs have to be a mutual fit.
    
    I don't think it has to do with the ability to adapt to a culture. 
    It depends on the individuals motivation for taking the job.  Did they
    know they were losing their job at DEC and took the first life-boat
    that came along?  If so they may not have considered whether or not
    they would be happy just that they would have job security.  Then, if
    things didn't work out, they were secure while looking for another
    job...
    
    I think that it's utterly ridiculous and ignorant to say that ex-DECies
    (the thousands of them) aren't motivated, have dead skill sets and
    can't adapt to new cultures!
    
    How many times in the last few years have we had to adjust to a
    changing culture?  Once every three to six months?  Into DCS, out of
    DCS, under MCS, not under MCS, 7 new managers in two weeks...but we
    keep adapting, keep doing our jobs...
    
    sounds ike your headhunter is an ignorant and unmotivated individual
    
    I'd find a new one...
    
    but I still think it's a problem that may be location-related...
    

  I agree with several replies. If an employer says they don't want to hire
DECcies because they "can't adjust to the culture", it probably means they
have a culture that an ex-DECcie would not want to work in.
    
>    Outside Digital, it's probably always a good idea to bring the resume
>    with you.

  Getting scheduled for an interview without sending a resume can be an ad-
vantage, if you can pull it off. I always bring a resume, whether or not I
send one in advance. When I was job-hunting in the 1970's, I found that about
one time out of ten, the interviewer had not seen my resume in advance and/or
didn't have it handy during the interview. By bringing one, I could not only
supply him with a copy but also explain stuff as he read it, which was much
more effective than him reading it in advance and drawing his own, possibly
wrong, conclusions.

I don;t think it's the headhunter at all. I know of several folks who TSFO'd
out and ran into the same problem. Still they ALL found jobs.

Here in Maine, when you can find a job, ex-Digital is respected

dave

Way back in 1981, I considered working for a small 80-person outfit in
Seattle.  Before they were willing to talk with me they not only wanted
a resume, but also a sample of some code I had written!  My "sweat-shop
alert" went off at the code-request, nevertheless I complied and was
invited to interview.  The interview confirmed the sweat-shop alert.
However I did enjoy talking with their co-founder and #2 man Paul Allen,
and their #3 man Steve Ballmer.  And no I did not end up working for
that company.

In case you haven't figured out yet, the company was Microsoft.  And
while I might have been financially better off had I ended up working
there, I have no regrets not making the personal and family sacrifices
I would have been called to make.

    

    My daughter is a Sales and Technical recruiter for Silicon Graphics.
    
    She has shared the very same thing with me that is expressed in .0.
    i.e., SGI has a VERY low opinion of ALL Digital employees, ESPECIALLY
    those in Sales, or recently TFSOd from Sales.  Seems they hired a
    couple some time back and they were both "fish out of water".  SGI 
    feels that ex-DEC Sales folks, coming out of a non-commissioned 
    environment, simply aren't "hungry enough" to work in SGI's highly 
    commissioned space...
    
    I have had several TFSOd folks call me (knowing my daughter's
    occupation) to get her number - some of them with EXCELLENT credentials
    from their days with Digital.  She has yet to get the first one to a 
    face-to-face interview with an SGI hiring Sales manager...

    When I came to Digital from Raytheon back in 1987 I heard the same
    thing about Raytheon employees: they were inflexible, didn't have the
    right mindset, etc.  Everything that is being said about ex-Deccies was
    being said about Raytheon employees.  I figure that when you work for a
    large company that's been making the news, and not for the best of
    reasons, then people are bound to make assumptions according to the
    type of press the company is receiving.
    
    I figure that if someone makes an assumption based upon one or two
    experiences, or even worse, hearsay, then they are going to be pretty
    close minded about the work experience, too, not someone for whom I'd
    be thrilled to work.
    
    I'd find a new recruiter, too, it doesn't sound like he's very
    motivated to present your best face.
    
    /Susan

    
    
    	I know a couple of people in the MA area who are in positions of
    	hiring people.  Knowing that I work for Digital, they tell me that
    	the problem with Digital people, or resumes of Digital people, is
    	that, after reading it, they STILL can't figure out what the person
    	can do or has done.  They must be getting resumes that are focused
    	on internal job searches.  Their suggestions were that these
    	should detail job skills, accomplishments, and the like, that
    	anyone in a hiring capacity could appreciate.
    

    RE: .17  
    
    > They must be getting resumes that are focused
    > on internal job searches.  Their suggestions were that these
    > should detail job skills, accomplishments, and the like, that
    > anyone in a hiring capacity could appreciate.
                             
    This is a really good point, too.
    
    A year ago, I had to put together a resume as part of my admission
    to graduate school (for C.S.) and it was the first 'outside Digital'
    resume I'd done in over 12 years.  I had to rethink the whole resume
    to change it from my inside-Digital-resume (which takes sort of a
    Digital-is-the-whole-world approach, with inside-Digital terms about
    cost centers, job codes and organizational acronyms, but with very brief 
    mention of what I'd done before Digital) to a resume that explained
    what I've done (in ALL my various jobs) in much more standard terms.
    
    It's good to keep this in mind if it's been awhile since you've looked
    outside Digital for a job.

>In case you haven't figured out yet, the company was Microsoft.  And
>while I might have been financially better off had I ended up working
>there, I have no regrets not making the personal and family sacrifices
>I would have been called to make.

Exactly my recent experience.  "Cultural" differences were cited for
not pursuing something further.  Employee count was about 70.

I was asked how I felt about overtime hours.  I said, "Time is a a great
goal setter but a poor metric for productivity and efficiency.  What would 
you say if I exceeded your expectations and shut off my terminal after
40 hours?"  The answer came, "Of course getting the job done is most 
important (we agreed) but (! red alert) many people here put in more
than 40 hours and I have to worry about teamwork."

I came away with the following thoughts:

(1) Asking a minimum of 45 hours while paying salary is devaluing you by
    a minimum of 12%

(2) Judging performance by the number of hours above 40 is short-sighted,
    and just plain wrong. 

(3) I wasn't being valued for my skills but I was being valued on whether
    I would pimp myself for profits.

(4) Of course, he didn't believe what he was saying or there wouldn't have
    been a "but" in his response.  I don't want to work for people who lack
    perspecacity.

(5) Life is more than job, and possible windfalls.

I am confident they'll find someone for their "culture."  My employer won't
regret my product and output.  And I'll work for someone who appreciates
the value I'll bring beyond my "duties" and "hours"  without applying a
meaningless metric to measure my value.

Mark

    I too have heard stories regarding sentiments similar to .0. I've also
    heard they pertain mostly to former DEC middle-managers. At any rate,
    here's a quick list of places that former Deccie's I know ended up
    either after being TFSO'd or leaving voluntarily (most of them were
    networking-types):
    
    Wellfleet (aka Bay Networks), Synoptics (also aka Bay Networks), Cisco,
    BBN, Proteon, Novell, Shiva, Bytex, FTP Software, Booz-Hamilton-Allen,
    Cascade Communications, MCI.
    
    And that's just off the top of my head. So, I still think there are
    more people than not who value ex-Deccies. 

Here in Colorado Springs ex-Deccies make up a large portion
of several MCI groups. They hired enmass from my development
organization. 

As for myself, I haven't even been looking and I've had friends
ask if I'd be interested in interviewing at the companies they
were at which had several ex-Deccies already. liesl

    	I know of someone who was TFSO'd, and immediately a *large*
    customer said to their account representative "Either we employ
    him or you do. We prefer you employ him because that way he has
    access to DEC internal information". The account representative
    said "Yes sir", and within 2 weeks of TFSO that person was
    working for DEC again as a contractor.  Some ex-DEC employees
    are valued.

|Thefre are many companies that have less than stellar opinions of former 
|DEC employees. Many of them feel that DEC employees are not motivated, 
|lack proper skills and cannot adjust to other cultures. I am not saying 
|that they are right... I am saying they are entitled to their opinions. 
|
|
|Thanks,
|recruiter
    
    A recruiter who tells a DEC employee the above is interested in one
    thing and one thing only.  Filling a slot for some client.  The
    recruiter is hoping that by talking the DEC employee down, the DEC
    employee will grab the position despite the [insert DEC employee's
    hot button issue[s] - pay, hours, benefits, interesting work, whatever.]
    
    								-mr. bill

    Nearly all the employees layed off in Galway have been hired by other
    companies.Some others went out on their own and started their own
    company.Digital people leaving here are going to other jobs.
    Is this bad mouthing Deccies a US thing?
    
    reg,
    
    	John.
    

>    Is this bad mouthing Deccies a US thing?

From some of the reports, it may be largely regional (north east).
I think it is also different according to size of the company.
Larger companies understand the workforce issues in a not-so-narrow
focus; small companied *do* have a narrow culture and "fit" is 
very important to them, just as joining a group in a large company
means becoming a part of "the team."  Recruiting talent, I guess, is
very different from someone who needs to add someone to the company
of 50 people and the person who is handling hiring and recruiting 
for Microsoft.

When it comes down to the hiring decision, though, "all politics are local."
So, get in the door and show them what you have to offer.

MM 

re. 15

>    She has shared the very same thing with me that is expressed in .0.
>    i.e., SGI has a VERY low opinion of ALL Digital employees, ESPECIALLY
>    those in Sales, or recently TFSOd from Sales.  Seems they hired a
>    couple some time back and they were both "fish out of water".  SGI
>    feels that ex-DEC Sales folks, coming out of a non-commissioned
>    environment, simply aren't "hungry enough" to work in SGI's highly
>    commissioned space...

That may not be the universal view at SGI. My cousin left Digital sales on his
own a few years ago to take a job with SGI sales. He was successful at Digital
and is very successful with SGI. 

    re: .23:
    >A recruiter who tells a DEC employee the above is interested in one
    >thing and one thing only.  Filling a slot for some client.  The
    >recruiter is hoping that by talking the DEC employee down, the DEC
    >employee will grab the position despite the [insert DEC employee's
    >hot button issue[s] - pay, hours, benefits, interesting work, whatever.]
    
    
    This is not strictly true.  Many recruiters are quite honest, but also
    lazy.  If a client says, "I don't like that applicant", the reason is
    completely irrelevant to them.  They just keep looking for the
    applicant who will be liked.  Because, bottom line, filling a slot is 
    what the recruiter's job is all about.  That is what he or she 
    gets paid to do.  The client's needs and preferences are what is 
    important.  
    
    It does seem that this attitude (ex-DEC = no good) is most pervasive in
    the Northeast and in the selling fields.  If you take a moment to look
    from the outside in, perhaps you will understand where this attitude
    comes from.  We, Digital, have been telling ourselves and everyone else
    for 2-3 years now that we were releasing the deadwood, getting rid of
    those people whose jobs or qualifications were no longer needed.  We
    have also said publicly (one of Bob's many popular speeches) that our
    sales force was overpopulated, undermotivated, and had an obsolete
    mind-set.  According to us, this is why we have laid off more than half
    of them, and why we now have variable compensation for sales.  
    
    Like the recruiter, I am not saying that these companies are correct in
    their assumption of low quality in ex-Digital employees.  I am saying,
    however, that this attitude is a reasonable reaction to the bad press
    we have given ourselves and allowed ourselves to be given by
    newspapers, analysts, etc.  
    
    Another thought:  this could also be a result of the fact that
    Digital doesn't know how to *fire* low performers...we honorably lay
    them off, in exactly the same manner and compensation as those whose
    performance was valuable!  How is a prospective employer supposed to
    tell the difference?
    
    M.
    
    
    M.
    

> <<< Note 3645.20 by MKOTS3::LANGLOIS "Which bridge to burn,which to cross" >>>

>    here's a quick list of places that former Deccie's I know ended up
>    either after being TFSO'd or leaving voluntarily (most of them were
>    networking-types):
    
>    Wellfleet (aka Bay Networks), Synoptics (also aka Bay Networks), Cisco,
>    BBN, Proteon, Novell, Shiva, Bytex, FTP Software, Booz-Hamilton-Allen,
>    Cascade Communications, MCI.
    
  Networking is a special case, where non-Digital companies are booming (and
Digital is doing well too) and ex-DEC engineers are in demand. 
  Any more cases of ex-DEC engineers (software or hardware; not managers or
sales/support/service people) being bad-mouthed en masse by a recruiter? 

Re several 

I am leaving DEC in a week, after 8 good years and I must say that this whole "badmouthing
ex Deccies" is totally unknown to me (and several of my ex colleagues). In fact since I 
began looking around the market I have had lots of positive offers and generally ex Digital
employees are very sought-after on the market here in Sweden. The special culture we have
(have had?) and the general profile seems to be very much in demand. The company I am 
joining more or less clearly states that they prefer to hire either ex DEC or ex IBM 
people...

/Tom S soon-to-be-ex-DECCIE , DC Stockholm

Re several 

    I am leaving DEC in a week, after 8 good years and I must say that this
    whole "badmouthing ex Deccies" is totally unknown to me (and several of
    my ex colleagues). In fact since I  began looking around the market I
    have had lots of positive offers and generally ex Digital employees are
    very sought-after on the market here in Sweden. The special culture we
    have (have had?) and the general profile seems to be very much in
    demand. The company I am  joining more or less clearly states that they
    prefer to hire either ex DEC or ex IBM  people...

/Tom S soon-to-be-ex-DECCIE , DC Stockholm
                                                     

    When I was forced to job-hunt a year ago, I ran into a head-hunter who
    basically told me that - he was an ex-DECcie himself, with a background
    in only Bliss and Cobol.  He wanted to know if I would be willing to
    take a 30% (!!!) pay cut to get a job outside!  And the only interview
    this clown got me was indeed for a job that didn't pay much, and would
    have soon bored me.  I've been working in various software engineering
    jobs for more than twenty years.  I didn't really need to accept an
    almost entry-level job at a big pay cut!  Needless to say, I dropped
    that agency.  Even better, I found a much better job inside DEC, so I am
    still here!  If I only knew Bliss, I could see the "obsolete engineer"
    label.  But I am far from overpaid even by DEC standards, let alone by
    industry standards.  I guess some head-hunters, and presumably some of
    their clients, have a pigeonhole attitude.  I don't need to work for
    those guys!
    
    /Charlotte (glad to still be here!)
                                           

    I hear from TFSOed friends that both MCI and Honeywell Services really
    "love" ex-DECcies. Two that I know did quite well by them. These 
    companies are nationwide, the examples I know are located near Dallas, 
    and Birmingham Alabama.

    re: .20  Cascade Communications has an un-spoken rule about hiring
    ex-DECcies....possibly because they already have quite a few they
    aren't interested in hiring many (if any) more.
    
    Debbie
    

    
    	Just a brief comment about the sales side of this note.
    
    	Several recruiters, both contract and retainer, have contacted many
    successful Digital sales people in Chicago. Their comments have always
    been "If you can sell for Digital in THIS environment, you can sell
    anything, anywhere."
    
    	And here in the Midwest, sales folks are leaving in droves.
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    The Computer Merchant (617)878-1070, based in Boston, places tons of
    ex-Digital and I'm constantly getting called by them to see if I know
    of anyone.  Ask for John Rogue.
    
    Here in Dallas I see several companies that have just about taken every
    ex-Digit they can get their hands on.  Many are worried Digital will no
    longer be able to support them, so they're sucking up vital employees
    as they can.
    
    I work with clients all over the US on a daily basis and have seen a
    huge increase in ex-Digits working with the client.  Chin up, folks,
    you're still valuable!
    
    								Tex

...this has been a _very_ interesting note...

    Several people in NT marketing have recently left on their own for
    Compaq, Sequent and Sun.
    
    I think a Digital resume may have been a problem a year or so ago.  I
    think it is now a plus.
    
    Laurie

    >"If you can sell for Digital in THIS environment, you can sell
    >anything, anywhere."
    
    We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, have been doing so much with
    so little for so long that we can now be called upon to do practically
    anything with almost nothing.            :-)

    I heard from an ex-DECie friend of mine in the Atlanta area and
    he said, "Having Digital on your resume  here is like the kiss
    of death."
    
    I still think it's geographically related but this is too much...
    
    "The kiss of death?"  How sad...
    
    

    Don't believe all what others say. If the skills of any person are not
    in great demand or a person has obsolete skill set, that makes him/her
    less employable. That's not to say that some 'irrational' individuals
    don't discriminate or have bias. Of over 60K that were laid off in last
    4-5 yrs, most of them are now working - some with better jobs and some
    with worse. I wouldn't worry about such statements. Just go out and knock
    on every opportunity for employment that is available. Something ought 
    to workout especially now the economy is doing ok.

                  <<< Note 3645.39 by ROMEOS::TREBILCOT_EL >>>
                           -< don't move to Atlanta >-

>>    I heard from an ex-DECie friend of mine in the Atlanta area and
>>    he said, "Having Digital on your resume  here is like the kiss
>>    of death."
    
Must depend.  I know of a whole group of people who just moved from
Digital in Atlanta to AT&T.    

    I know the same group (12) that went to AT&T.  I know of others who
    have gone to HP.  So, I do not believe it is a kiss of death to be a
    former Digital employee.  Must be a personal problem.
    

	re: past several.  

	I also think that the "Atlanta Kiss of Death" was an isolated 
case.

	In addition to several high tech companies who can't seem 
to get enough of us, I've got a headhunter "courting" me now that I'm 
pretty much having to beat off with a stick...


Tracey 

    Tracey, you've been "beating 'em off with a stick" for as long
    as I've known you!  (At least until you got married!) %^}  %^}
    
    					{^% andrew %^}

    This may be comparing apples and rocks.
    I have never heard ill said of Digital individual contributors,
    and have heard some nice comments about our engineers.
    

    I don't know if there is any significance to this or not, but most of
    my ex-coworkers under the age of 40 don't appear to be having any difficulty
    finding new employment...the one's over 50 seem to be having a much
    harder time.  There could be a lot of reasons for this I suppose -
    salary requirements, ability to relocate, etc.  Just an observation
    with no statistical backup.

Age discrimination happens.  It shouldn't, especially with wisdom and
experience of some of our workers.  Part of it may be salary requirements
of older workers - or merely the expected salary requirements.

A lot of hiring and consideration for hiring seems to be done on
alchemy and supposition rather than perspecacity and fact.

Mark