Conference 7.286::digital

    	The first notes file was provided by the notes developers. I don't
    know if they have rolled the file over, getting rid of early notes. I
    think the second to use a client-server protocol other than DAP was one
    based in Australia, but that was suppressed when it became critical of
    GIA management. It is possible that some ozzie still has an archive.
    
    	The earliest VMSNOTES, if they are still archived on node VAXAXP
    would be a good example since they were one of the earliest. The
    BONNET::VALBONNE conference was also fairly early and is still active.

	Personally, I wasn't privileged to have VMS access
	till '84, about the time the VALBONNE conference
	came on line mentioned in .-1

	There are many still around much older.  Try ANCHOR::82ENET
	that starts at '81.  Earlier than that (other protocols?)
	you might want to ask someone like Steve Lionel - he was
	there.

		Hey - great idea of inyaface marketing!  I like it.
	Careful it doesn't backfire on you though.  You could
	reasonably expect a customer question as to why Digital 
	hasn't capitalized on this lead in client-server technology 
	in almost 15 years!!!!  Just for grins read note 5.* of 
	82ENET where some farsighted colleagues were talking about 
	porting NOTES to other software platforms

						....Sigh

/Chris.

      The first topic in PROXY::PDP_11 dates from August 1984. It is still
    active, though maybe you ought to do something about the message that
    says 'This is a MDNF - Management Disinterest Notes File' before showing it
    to customers. Otherwise a good example of a work-related file.
    
      MILORD::WAR_STORY started a year later, but has lots of good stories
    to amuse.
    
    Ken

		This is the earliest note I've ever seen:

          <<< MUGGER::MUGGER$SYS1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ICL_CONNECT.NOTE;3 >>>
           -< Discussion of Digital's ICL Connect Software Packages >-
================================================================================
Note 1.0                          Introduction                         2 replies
SWCA06::HESLOP                                       36 lines  25-DEC-1960 00:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This conference has been set up in order to discuss issues related to 
    ICL connect software supplied by Digital.
    

    I believe this question has been discussed in AXEL::NOTES_HISTORY
    
    	Dave

    
    Even better... My friends brother was the system manager of a VAX at
    lotus some years ago.  He told me that they loved NOTES on the VAX.
    What a good idea!
    
    Jon
    

                 <<< FOO::USER:[NOTES$LIBRARY]TRIVIA.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -< Triviality is its own reward >-
================================================================================
Note 1.0                          Introduction                        14 replies
VAXWRK::VAXworks                                      2 lines   6-FEB-1981 15:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the VAXworks trivia file.  Ask away, and be prepared for whatever 
answer(s) you may get!

    re .0 & .2
    
    I believe that the default notes that are created when you install
    Vax Notes are kind of old (maybe mid-eighties?).
    
    At least, the only time I have installed Vax notes (for use with the
    Windows Conferencing client), I remember the customer making some
    comment about Digital not producing newer versions of this "ancient"
    product, purley on the basis of the default note time-stamps.
    

    	The first formal release of a client-server protocol with DECnet
    was the DAP file transfer protocol with DECnet-8. This ran on the RTS-8
    operating system, and shipped a few months before the RSX-11D or
    RSX-11M versions of DECnet. DECnet-8 shipped sometime around Summer
    1974. I was using a client-server file transfer protocol on a PDP-8 in
    1970, but it was not DEC supplied software.
    
    	The earlier versions of Notes-like things used DAP to access a
    remote file, so Notes is way late in the history of client-server. When
    Notes got its own protocol around 1984, many notes files that had
    previously been accessed by DAP were converted to a new file format, so
    notes exist from before then. Notes that purport to be from earlier
    than around 1980-1981 are a fake since that was when remote file access
    DECnet servers supported the required record locking.

    TERMINALS, now on ONTIME::, but still the one and only. 
    
    Work-related and continuously open since 1-DEC-1983. 
    
    [And only slightly older than my career at DEC, as it happens.]
    
    [We still make terminals, too. :-)]

The first notes file was STAR::SYSNOTES, first opened in 1980. 

					Steve

    However, the original SYSNOTES is no longer in use, and I'm not sure
    it's still in existence. 

Well, it doesn't matter - we didn't invent NOTES either.  Len Kawell basically
reimplemented the "Notes" program from PLATO IV.

				Steve

>    However, the original SYSNOTES is no longer in use, and I'm not sure
>    it's still in existence. 

Notes> o/nono STAR::SYSNOTES
You are not a member of this conference

-stephen

	SYSNOTES is still there, but the current version was started on
5-Jun-1985.  The first sentence starts with:

This is a new SYSNOTES file...


						--Doug

    Hey, Don't forget Helix::CTnotes. CTnotes opened Jan 1983 and is
    still in use. 
    				Marie
    

          <<< STAR::NOTES_ARCHD$:[NOTES_ARCHIVE]SYSNOTES_OLD.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< VMS system notes >-
================================================================================
Note 1.0                             Welcome                          No replies
 KAWELL                                               3 lines  16-JUN-1980 14:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  This notes file should be used to log changes to VMS and its bundled
components.  That is, when you make a change to something that might
possibly be interesting to someone else, write a short note here.
    

Some interesting reading there.  Like the bit about the RM05 announcement:

                RM03            RP06            RM05            IBM 3370

Drive + Contr.  $26,800         $44,000         $44,000         $36,850
Capacity        67MB            176MB           256MB           571MB(!!!)
Transfer Rate   1.2MB/sec       .8MB/sec        1.2MB/sec       1.8Mb/sec
Seek (average)  30ms            30ms            30ms            20ms(!)

There's also a note about hand-carrying STAR::'s disks for the move to
Spit Brook.

    Before it was CTnotes, it used to be called DittyBag.  It was started
    by none other than Jared Spool.  Those were the good'ole days :-)
    
    - Vikas

    STAR::JOKES was there back in '82.
    
    Till they wanted their system back and shut down the file.  :-)
    
    ed

�    	The earliest VMSNOTES, if they are still archived on node VAXAXP
�    would be a good example since they were one of the earliest. The
�    BONNET::VALBONNE conference was also fairly early and is still active.

VMSNOTES only dates back to 25 October 1982.  I believe the folks in 
VAXworks were too busy with the trivia file to create a work-related one :-).

j.

BTW, VMS Still doesn't have a FROTZ utility ;-).

Notefile: VAXAXP::NOTES$ARCHIVE:VMSNOTES_V1
Note: 1.0
Author: VAXWRK::STILES
Topic: VMSNOTES Notesfile Description
Date: 25-OCT-1982 12:28
Lines: 16
Replies: 1

    SYS$NOTES:VMSNOTES
    ------------------
    This file is to be used for exchanging VMS related information among
the field, SWE, and VAXworks.  Possible items to be entered include:

    - Problem statement with problem resolution: "Here's a problem, and
      here's how to fix it or workaround it."
    - General product announcements
    - Tips on avoiding problems
    - Pointers to documentation and tools accessible by the field
    - Issues and concerns from the field on topics they perceive as possible
      problems in general: "VMS should have a FROTZ utility, or we'll never
      catch up to IBM."

There is no commitment implied or intended to answer specific questions
that might be asked.

    	It's still not clear exactly what was wanted.
    
    	DEC's earliest client-server product shipped was almost certainly
    DAP (FAL) file access on DECnet-8, summer 1974.
    
    	In 1980 VMS V2 shipped with indexed file support in DAP, and it
    seems that it was used fairly rapidly by an unofficial Notes product,
    using the new extensions added to DAP.
    
    	If the request was for earliest use of the NOTES client-server protocol
    rather than DAP then the notes files do not provide reliable evidence,
    and I believe the earliest use was around January 1984. If the request
    was for the earliest use of *any* client-server protocol then you should
    be looking ten years earlier.

Mr. Monahan is probably right.  I've been working at DEC since
1977 on communications software of one kind or another, and
even back then the prevailing model was client/server.  

Of course, we didn't call it client/server then (I myself 
used "listener" for server, influenced heavily by
RSX DECnet terminology) but that doesn't invalidate
the concepts.

    I believe 3485.17 is correct in claiming that to be the earliest note
    written with Kawell Notes.  The Notes product we use now was done a few
    years later by Benn Schreiber and Peter Gilbert.  As mentioned, the
    NOTES_HISTORY conference has many more details.

	The first conferences created by VAXnotes (as opposed to K-notes) were created 
during the field test which started late in 1983.  I know I was regularly accessing a 
selected few with VAXNOTES by Dec 1983.

	Am I dating myself here?  (Back in '83, I was, for a while, the youngest person
regularly contributing to notes.)  Alas, not even close to the youngest now...

Tracey 
(who used to sign off as tlh back in the TRIVIA heyday.)

    	I think we are in violent agreement here about everything except
    what the base noter really wanted.
    
>    Ok, you old f*rts... I would like to know the name of the OLDEST
>    notesfile on the net that I can attach to and do a listing of the first
    
    	Various claimants, going back to about 1980. Take your pick
    
>    20 notes (showing dates around early 1980s...  hopefully something 
>    circa the year VAXnotes came alive.
    
    	Not sure what you mean by "came alive". It shipped early in 1984,
    but as mentioned, some notes files were active in late 1983 using field
    test software.
    
>     "Digital did client / server when client / server wasn't cool!"
    
    	For this you want to use the 1974 date which is when DECnet-8
    shipped. I'm afraid I no longer have the documentation - it was lost in
    an office move long ago, but I'm sure SDC has archives that you can use
    to show peer-to-peer networking and client-server at that date. I only
    mentioned the FAL server specifically because it was DAP protocol that
    was used 6 years later by Len Kawell, but I believe the NICE
    client-server protocol at least was also shipping in 1974 for network
    management (NML). DECnet for RSX11-D and RSX-11M shipped a few months
    after DECnet-8, but I believe all in CY 1974, and all of them had FAL
    and other servers.
    
    	The "listener" term was what was used then - FAL -> File Access
    Listener, NML -> Network Management Listener - instead of "server", as
    Dave mentions in .23. The names have stuck even though they are now called
    "servers" so you have FAL$SERVER on your VMS system, the file access
    listener server :-)

        History is always important, and may even impress the
        customer, but I'm sure their foremost concern is what we can
        do and are doing NOW.

        Bob

    re .- 1 - Amen!
    
    It is pointless arguing that we took ten years or so to change 
    our terminology from "listener" to "server"  - .0 wants to do 
    a *CUSTOMER* demo, not a Digital post-mortem.
    
    I suggest that you pick an interesting conference of early 80's,
    vintage. hit it with the sexiest windows front-end you can find 
    and read a few of the more interesting basenotes.
    
    For added credo - tell the customer that over the years Digital 
    ensured that the Notes application survived a migration from file server
    architecture to dedicated application server-application client
    and multiple improvements of the application protocol over the years.
    
    This is the main point of competitive client-server positioning
    and its benefits.  Many customers even today, still believe that 
    client-server means a remote D: drive.
    
    
    Sock it to em!
    
    /Chris.

    i, for one, think its a bit petty and unwarranted to flame people who
    have taken the time to share a bit of history. i appreciate it and
    enjoy their notes. perhaps we need yet another topic to discuss it. but
    to label it BULLSHIT is immature at best. grow up people. 

    Re: .29

    I've looked through the whole string and saw nothing that 
    seemed worthy of such strong criticism.

    If you were referring to .27 and .28, I believe that you may
    have misinterpreted their intent.  I think that they were 
    suggesting that we focus on the base-noter's immediate need 
    and relate it to our product history.  Reminding the customer 
    that:

        o  NML and FAL are really client/server facilities.

        o  We've used client/server facilities almost as long as
           we've existed.

        o  Our committment to our customers (and our own needs) 
           have led us to support client/server facilities across
           changing technology.

    seem like a really good idea to me.  (I will agree that the
    word "pointless" in .27 is a bit heavy-handed too.)

    Terry
    

    >If you were referring to .27 and .28, I believe that you may
    >have misinterpreted their intent.  I think that they were 
    >suggesting that we focus on the base-noter's immediate need 
    >and relate it to our product history.  Reminding the customer 
    >that:
    
 your probably right. perhaps i should refrain from noting after 4 hours of
    grueling yard work. in any event i've no beef with anyone in
    particular.
       

    to my opinion, referencing to old products/projects is necessarily not
    useless in that context. Hopefully we have accumulated more competence
    for client/server due to around 20 years of experience than many of our
    competitors. We should also remember, that many early real time network
    applications were based on Digital's systems. Today those solutions
    would be counted in the client/server space.
    
    --Ritva
    

    	Re.25
    
    	Sorry, this doesn't make much sense.  Any chance you would re-enter
    the reply using 79 columns please?
    
    	Re string.
    
    	Surely, the point of having a history (and hence asking for
    information about it) is to show customers that we are not new-starts
    in whatever field is being sold into.
    
    	Someone has already pointed out that we were into Client/Server
    business long before Sun came into existance - didn't we have Notes
    long before Lotus came into existance too?
    
    	What other things did we have before other companies started
    pushing the product as if they are the experts?
    
    				Malcolm.

    re: .27 and .28
>        History is always important, and may even impress the
>        customer, but I'm sure their foremost concern is what we can
>        do and are doing NOW.
    
    	We are now into the tricky question of what the customer needs
    versus what he wants (see Bob Dylan for accompanying music), and the
    customer here is the author of .0
    
    	He in turn may be supplying a reseller, and impressing the customer
    is a need rather than a want. He asked for history, therefore he wants
    it. If his customer wants history then he (the .0 author) needs it. If
    his customer is a reseller then in turn his customer may need it.
    
    	It used to be said "Nobody ever got fired for choosing an 
    IBM computer". Can we make a parallel "Over the last 20 years
    nobody ever got fired for choosing DEC client-server"? Customers
    who fell for the first line were not looking at IBM's current
    products - they were looking at their job safety. History *is*
    important when you are selling something.

	Gene - good to see you've relaxed a little.

	The "BS" in my note title was aimed at the competition
	which was the reason for .0 requesting this sort of info.  
 
/Chris.

	>The "BS" in my note title was aimed at the competition
	>which was the reason for .0 requesting this sort of info.  
 
    yeah. i figured that out after posting the note. sorry. like i said,
    noting right after 4 hours of raking leaves is a definite no-no.

    
    

            <<< AXEL::FOLKD$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]NOTES_HISTORY.NOTE;4 >>>
                           -< The history of Notes >-
================================================================================
Note 3.0                  A very short history of Notes               No replies
VMSDEV::SZETO "Simon Szeto"                          51 lines   8-SEP-1987 21:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[The following was written when VAX Notes was still in field test.]

                         -< Introduction to VAX Notes >-
================================================================================
Note 2.0                     Short history of NOTES                      1 reply
2CHARS::SZETO                                        42 lines  20-JAN-1986 18:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  The new VAX Notes product is now being field tested.  This product
  will be a supported DEC product, unlike all previous NOTES utilities
  which were unsupported internal tools.

  There were three NOTES utilities, one or more of which you may have
  used before.  In the order in which they came into use, these were:

  NOTES

  The original NOTES utility was first written in 1980.  Written by
  Len Kawell (now an ex-employee) it is sometimes known as "K-NOTES"
  to distinguish it from its successors.  Although not a product, it
  was installed on many if not a majority of VMS systems on the
  Easynet, and thought of by many users as a standard VMS utility
  (erroneously).

  NOTES-11

  This utility was originally written in 1983 by Mark Goodrich for
  reading VMS notefiles from RSTS/E.  It was later adapted to run on
  RSX-11M-PLUS, VMS and MicroVMS, and finally P/OS and Micro/RSX.  It
  became generally available as an internal tool in early 1984.  Many
  enhancements suggested for the original NOTES were incorporated into
  NOTES-11.  Because of these enhancements, NOTES-11 became the
  utility of choice for a large number of "noters."

  VNOTES

  In late 1984, VAX Notes became a funded project.  In March, 1985
  Benn Schreiber and Peter Gilbert produced a prototype known as
  VNOTES (although it is often called "VAX Notes").  Using remote
  servers, VNOTES provided better performance than its predecessors,
  particularly over long reaches of the network.

  VAX Notes

  The product is now finally ready for field test.  In addition to the
  functions in the VNOTES prototype, many other features were added.
  Some of these enhancements required that a new notefile format be
  used.  This brings about the need to convert old notefiles to the
  new format, which will be discussed in a later section of this
  document.

>    yeah. i figured that out after posting the note. sorry. like i said,
>    noting right after 4 hours of raking leaves is a definite no-no.
    
    What's the matter with your trees?  :^]
    
    							Tex 

re .0

>   I am just getting fed up with SUN and Gupta and whoever saying that
>    "they" invented Client Server... cheesh!

Not to mention Lotus saying that they invented Notes...

- Bob

    
    	Well, over here on the right side of the pond, we have a company
    called Micropolis claiming in their adverts (in the Pro-Audio
    magazines!?!) that they invented RAID!  Maybe they just invented the
    name?
    
    				Malcolm.

    As I remember, it was invented by a grad student (Stanford?) as a
    thesis, about the time I left grad school to come to DEC (er, digital)
    in the early '80's.  That's why the classification in RAID x levels -
    it's nice and orderly; and why RAID level 4 exists, even though it's
    not useful commercially it makes sense in a logical progression.  The
    same student thought up the name.

> As I remember, it was invented by a grad student (Stanford?) as a
> thesis ...

Well, you have the right state.  The university was Cal (Berkeley), not
Stanford; the guy was Randy Katz; and he was on the faculty, not a graduate
student.

___Pete

    I stand corrected...the years haven't done much for my rememberance of
    papers read while I was a grad student.  I'll have to see if I still
    have a copy buried somewhere in that mess in my basement.