[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference 7.286::digital

Title:The Digital way of working
Moderator:QUARK::LIONELON
Created:Fri Feb 14 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:5321
Total number of notes:139771

3454.0. "Use new technology to be competitive?" by OSL09::OLAV (Do it in parallel!) Thu Oct 20 1994 06:49

Is "Digital style of working" using legacy VMS applications? Today I wanted
to have access to a system to lookup price information. Guess what they
offered: PACS!!! How can we be competitive with that kind of systems?
Do we have anything better?

Olav
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
3454.1ODBC access to data is the minimum requirementOSL09::OLAVDo it in parallel!Thu Oct 20 1994 06:533
And the database isn't even accessable via ODBC (not in Rdb, but RMS files)!

Olav
3454.2Oracle can do it !XSTACY::KBOWENSy and Tah-lae are now part of the family!Thu Oct 20 1994 07:198
    >>And the database isn't even accessable via ODBC (not in Rdb, but RMS
    files)!
    
    Incorrect!
    
    Go look at RDBAccess for RMS
    
    Gerbil$done_it
3454.3I know it's possible, but is it used?OSL09::OLAVDo it in parallel!Thu Oct 20 1994 09:443
OK, do  you have a live system with ODBC access to price/product info?

Olav
3454.4Like the highway system?LACV01::ROMANODon Romano - LACT IM&TThu Oct 20 1994 15:2024
    >> OK, do  you have a live system with ODBC access to price/product
    >> info?
    
    Just Microsoft Access using ODBC and DBI (Database Integrator) attaching 
    to the DSPS files.
    
    I have a feeling that there some fairly good systems "home grown" out 
    there, built out of necessity.
    
    The problem of the legacy systems is well known.  There has been (IMHO)
    bad investment in the information systems infrastructure of this
    company.  It's like the highway system and bridges, you save money by
    holding up on investments.  It works for the short term but then things
    start to break and it is not easy fix quickly.
    
    Combine that with the rapidly changing environment and the symtoms
    become quite severe.
    
    Silver lining: it appears like (another) push for common systems is on
    with the emphasis on proven products (SAP, etc.)  Should be interesting
    with all of the new business units/divisions going their own ways.  A
    new adventure in integration.  :-)
    
    Don  
3454.5GEMGRP::gemnt3.zko.dec.com::WinalskiCareful with that AXP, EugeneThu Oct 20 1994 22:038
Rule #1 of Information Systems:  If a system is working, don't change 
it.

Olav, is your complaint that the VMS-based system doesn't work, or 
are you complaining because it doesn't use the latest and trendiest 
technology?

--PSW
3454.6Have a vision of something betterOSL09::OLAVDo it in parallel!Fri Oct 21 1994 01:5718
Of course most of our systems work, but they require a lot of *manpower*
to get the job done. More active use of World Wide Web technology could
fix the need for technical/marketing/sales information. We certainly need
better use of information technology in the bid/order process. If you
want to produce a proposal for a customer containing a full description
of the system with part numbers and prices and some drawings in Word
format, how automated is that process? Then if the customer wants to order
it, could you just submit the order with the information you used to create
the proposal? How easy is it for you to give him feedback on delivery date?

> Rule #1 of Information Systems:  If a system is working, don't change 
> it.

Do we recommend that to our customers too? Keep your VAX forever, you don't
need those new and fancy systems! Anyway, I don't think changing the old
systems help. Replace them!

Olav
3454.7VTX application on Partnernet in UK BRUMMY::WALLACE_JMon Oct 24 1994 10:129
    In the UK our CSOs/etc have access to pricing info via VTX application
    on Partnernet. I haven't seen it myself but those who have say it's
    brilliant (relative to PACS, most things are). 
    
    Quite why us internal folks can't be allowed access to stuff which
    clearly already exists is an interesting question... 
    
    bye
    john
3454.8VANGA::KERRELLDECUS UK - IT User Group of the Year '94Tue Oct 25 1994 04:0710
re.7:

>                   -< VTX application on Partnernet in UK  >-
>
>    Quite why us internal folks can't be allowed access to stuff which
>    clearly already exists is an interesting question... 

You can. From UK VTX main page, take 31, 1, 7, 2.

Dave.
3454.9One reason why we loose moneyOSL09::OLAVDo it in parallel!Tue Oct 25 1994 04:12239
================================================================================
Note 1826.14         Where to go for an intel NT software??             14 of 26
BGSDEV::TANNENBAUM "TGA Developer"                    4 lines  19-OCT-1994 09:40
                                    -< $89 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If this isn't DEC internal, DELL is offering Windows NT Workstation
    V3.5 for $89 per copy.
    
    	- Barry
================================================================================
Note 1826.15         Where to go for an intel NT software??             15 of 26
NWD002::BOTTOMS_DA "It's always something"           18 lines  19-OCT-1994 23:01
                              -< SSB Part Number >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re:                    <<< Note 1826.12 by BRUMMY::WALLACE_J >>>

�    That sounds good. Is that the media price, licence price, or both?
�    Do you have part numbers ? 

	The price and part number is for the Digital Windows NT V3.1
   Workstation kit. It is the CD-ROM version (w/3.5" install disk)
   and includes license and documentation (Users Guide).

      Windows NT V3.1 Workstaion  	QB-0QRAA-SB      $   9.67          

   The Digital Windows NT V3.5 kits are supposed to be available from
   SSB on 10/28. The part number for V3.5 Workstaion should be 
   QB-0QRAA-SC (but if your order now with that number, you will only
   get V3.1).


   							-Dale
================================================================================
Note 1826.16         Where to go for an intel NT software??             16 of 26
OSL09::OLAV "Do it in parallel!"                      7 lines  20-OCT-1994 01:11
                    -< Part number and version number mess >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The part number for V3.5 Workstaion should be QB-0QRAA-SC (but if your order
> now with that number, you will only get V3.1).

Why don't we have a different part number for different products??? We are
really difficult to do bisiness with!

Olav
================================================================================
Note 1826.17         Where to go for an intel NT software??             17 of 26
NWD002::BOTTOMS_DA "It's always something"           12 lines  20-OCT-1994 18:22
                           -< It's worse than that >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE:             <<< Note 1826.16 by OSL09::OLAV "Do it in parallel!" >>>

�Why don't we have a different part number for different products??? We are
�really difficult to do bisiness with!

   It is a different number: -SB is V3.1, -SC is V3.5. However, if you
   order the -SC variant now, and even specify V3.5, for some reason SSB 
   fills your order with V3.1 !!!! Apparently, you have to wait to send
   in the order until 10/28 in order to receive V3.5. How's that for order 
   processing!

   							-Dale
================================================================================
Note 1826.18         Where to go for an intel NT software??             18 of 26
ANDREW::OSTROM "ETP Engineering Mgr."                28 lines  23-OCT-1994 20:05
                    -< We DO NOT want another part number. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm an ex and sometimes software product manager, and used to work in
    Software Manufacturing, so I'd like to correct some mis-information.

    Digital software part numbers have, for the last 8 or 10 years, been
    of the Q?-UPILx-yy.VVVV format.  The ? is replaced with L for
    licenses, A for media/docs, B for packeges, etc.  The UPI is the
    UNIQUE PRODUCT IDENTIFIER, and each "PRODUCT" has its own.  NOT
    creating new UPIs for every new version of every software product is
    how we limit ourselves to only a few tens of thousands of software
    part numbers.  Thus, as .-1 says, there IS a new part number for WNT
    V3.5, which might be a change to the "yy" in the part number for a
    break-the-seal think like NT, but would only be a rev to the VVVV for
    a part for say VMS or C or whatever.  Thus, QA-001AA-GZ has always
    and will always be the part number for a VMS doc set.

    Note, that if you just order the part number, you automatically get
    the currently shipping revision, which, for NT, seems like it's V3.1.
    You can specifically order V3.5, which should be honored.

    Our part numbering system is really pretty straight forward if you
    take just a few minutes to read the front of the price book -- we
    should give sales/sales support folks a test -- I spend too much time
    answering questions that could be easily answered by reading the
    price book.

                        Andy Ostrom
                        ETPE Engineering/Product Mgmt Mgr.
================================================================================
Note 1826.19         Where to go for an intel NT software??             19 of 26
OSL09::OLAV "Do it in parallel!"                     19 lines  24-OCT-1994 02:53
                    -< Information systems we use are weak >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if you want fewer phone calls, I think we need better info/order
systems not more reading.

Looking up Windows NT part numbers in VTX price:

        MODEL
        NUMBER      DESCRIPTION                      LIST
              
   1  QB-0QRAA-SA   WIN NT BETACODE Package                   495.00
   2  QB-0QRAA-SB   WIN NT OS SHRNK Package CDROM             295.00

Who is able to answer customers and order products on this basis???
Is it version 3.1 or 3.5. Do you get Workstation or Server? What about
the new 3.5 licensing?

We need systems that are supporting our daily business! I don't think the
front of the price books makes any of this any more clear.

Olav
================================================================================
Note 1826.20         Where to go for an intel NT software??             20 of 26
ANDREW::OSTROM "ETP Engineering Mgr."                12 lines  24-OCT-1994 06:44
                            -< Seems pretty clear. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, page 6.45 of the October 10, 1994 price book says:
    
        Windows NT Operating System Package (V3.1)
    
    so I suppose that's pretty clear.  Since when do you expect to have
    part numbers on pre-release versions of software?  How do I order VMS
    V6.2, or DEC C V5?  I can't!  You've already been told that the
    release date is 10/28, what more do you want?????
    

                                    ao
================================================================================
Note 1826.21         Where to go for an intel NT software??             21 of 26
OSL09::OLAV "Do it in parallel!"                     16 lines  24-OCT-1994 07:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Well, page 6.45 of the October 10, 1994 price book says:
>    
>        Windows NT Operating System Package (V3.1)

Is the price book available on-line (not PostScript)?

> You've already been told that the release date is 10/28, what more
> do you want?????

A computer system telling me that (not notes).

> Since when do you expect to have part numbers on pre-release versions
> of software?

Windows NT 3.5 is not currently pre-release. Competition (other companies
selling Windows NT) have been taking orders for about a month now.
================================================================================
Note 1826.22         Where to go for an intel NT software??             22 of 26
ANDREW::OSTROM "ETP Engineering Mgr."                 9 lines  24-OCT-1994 08:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From Digital it's not released -- the fact that others HAVE released
    it is irrelevent.  

    The version number is not currently displayed on VTX price.  I don't
    think the intent was to replace the price book in its entirety.  Have
    you used option "5" on the main menu of VTX price to tell the authors
    of the system that you would like them to include software version
    information (it IS in the SSB database).
================================================================================
Note 1826.23         Where to go for an intel NT software??             23 of 26
MUMPS::ROODY "Roadkill on info highway..."           22 lines  24-OCT-1994 08:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re: .22
    
    > From Digital it's not released -- the fact that others HAVE released
    > it is irrelevent
    
    Uhhhm, except maybe to customers, but I keep forgetting that they too
    are irrelevent in the new Digital.
    
    What is irrelevent is whether or not the product is available.  What
    other companies are doing is taking orders, and money, with a scheduled
    delivery date in line with availability.  They are selling both systems
    and kits this way.  
    
    These are sales we will never see.  These are sales we can not make
    because our systems are too archaic and bound up in themselves; in most
    cases Business Practices has the final word on what a product group can
    offer to customers - and it is rarely what a competitive model
    requires.
    
    Irrelevent indeed.
    
    
================================================================================
Note 1826.24         Where to go for an intel NT software??             24 of 26
BGSDEV::TANNENBAUM "TGA Developer"                    4 lines  24-OCT-1994 09:43
                                -< Irrelevent? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A group I work with needed a copy of Windows-NT V3.5, and couldn't get
    it in-house.  They ordered *AND RECEIVED* it from Dell last week.
    
    	- Barry
================================================================================
Note 1826.25         Where to go for an intel NT software??             25 of 26
DECC::OUELLETTE "Mole Whacker"                        7 lines  24-OCT-1994 11:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From Digital it's not released -- the fact that others HAVE released
    it is irrelevent.  

It's not irrelevent; it's the problem!
Perhaps a VP could pay a visit and help some people out...

R.
================================================================================
Note 1826.26         Where to go for an intel NT software??             26 of 26
POLAR::TOMKINS                                       21 lines  24-OCT-1994 12:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That is interesting that the product was obtained from Dell.
    
    Typically, Microsoft has licensing restrictions on software
    distribution with their OEM's.
    
    For example, Digital can sell Microsoft OS's with hardware but cannot
    sell just the OS without hardware. Further, we are in some cases
    prevented from selling upgrades to OS's as well.
    The reason for this is that a distributor, company x, has an exclusive
    territory license with Microsoft and if we were to sell into that firms
    territory, how does Microsoft make sure that company x gets their fair
    due for the product sale. It actually get's more complexe than this,
    but this is the rough start of it.
    
    In any event, I would be surprised to find that Dell had a
    non-restrictive distribution agreement with Microsoft, different than
    the agrreement we have in place. If this is the case, then our lawyers
    ought to be going back to re-negotiate the contracts. If this is not
    the case, then Dell is breaking the rules.
    
    Regards, rtt