Conference 7.286::digital

    Well ... the life boats are all gone, so some people will just
    swim for it.

I suspect you'll see more of this - the job market is picking up a bit and
unhappy employees realize that "waiting for TFSO" makes no sense anymore.

					Steve

    
    
    >new trend?
    
    hell no. 
    THis has been going on quite heavily for quite some time now...
    the top 10 reasons to RUN not walk to the nearest exit?
    
    10)pay raise freeze and no sign of the thaw
    9)out the door on a dime and at the whim of someone who should be
      have been out long before you and who will still be there tomorrow
    8)total lack of willingness on anyones part to LISTEN to the people
      who are LIVING thru it and dealing with it everyday and might
      actually be able to HELP--like trying to talk to a teenager
    7)the lies and complete lack of honesty (I have more faith in
      the government than in some of the mgrs around me--scary)
    6)continuous chain of stupid stupid stupid implementations
    5)so many reorgs that we're getting chaffed hands packing and unpacking
      book boxes
    4)We miss Ken
    3)the light at the end of the tunnel is looking more and more like a
      train coming
    2)I can be treated with a total lack of respect and disregard by my
      friends and family...why let total strangers get away with it?
    
    And the Number 1 reason for the MASS exodus from Digital these days.
    
    1)Because no one cares enough to try and stop it.....

    re .3
    
    People leaving Digital is exactly want Mr. Palmer and his Vp's want. 
    I believe I read somewhere that he will cut the number of employees
    till he get's a profit.  This only makes sense to Palmer.

    
    The headhunters I've talked to all say that they have hundreds of jobs
    available and that the job market in this part of the country
    (Northeast) is booming.  They are very optimistic.  There are tons of
    contract positions available but you must have *current* skills.  There
    is a huge demand for communications engineers and MS-Windows/X-Windows
    programmers out there.  The headhunters I've talked to always mention
    that they have had many calls from DECcies looking for jobs and that
    many still think that there are no jobs outside of DEC when in fact
    there are many.
    
    No, you don't have to stay at DEC, you can go elsewhere if you have
    skills that are in demand; this mass exodus will help this company
    financially by limiting the need for severance pay and reducing the
    number of layoffs needed to meet such academic statistics as "revenue
    per employee".  (I know and realize it will hurt DEC too.)
    
    Note also that the job market internal to DEC is improving
    substantially as evidenced by the increased activity in the
    JOBS conference.
    
    Dennis
    

    re:  .5


    The key word to remember here, folks, is CONTRACT!  Remember the
    trend in corporate America is not to have your company over-bur-
    dend with FULL-TIMERS @ bennies!  

    The future:
    
    DEC Employees: 0%
    DEC Managers: 100%
    
    It seems clear that we are going to become a company of "managers" and
    farm out all our needs....contractors/vendors...the " variable work
    force".
    

    			You are absolute RIGHT!!
    
    	We had a con call yesterday and thats exactly what we have been
    told.  We are expecting 50% of our MCS engineers to be TFSO'ed by
    NOV/DEC time frame in the Great Lakes District!  
            
    Have a VARIABLE DAY...

    
    
    
    well,, It's obvious that the powers that would-be have no idea that
    they are still raking in their millions of $$ a year is because of the
    loyalty of the full time employees...
    
    lets see where the variable work force leaves you in rough times....
    

    
        Let's see, IMHO and in about 60,000 others, our main problem is
    management.  So, the managers are going to turn Digital into management
    only and contract labor?  Hahahahahahahahaha! in the words of one other
    noter.  Classic example is the CSC's management requiring Digital
    Consulting to have their own support contract - no more freebies.  Did
    anyone tell anybody in the field?  Nooooooo, of course not.  So, now
    that management realizes the lunacy of arbitray policy implementation,
    they're off to 'work the issue'.  Yeah, right.  I understand the CSC's
    predicament, what I don't understand is the complete lack of
    forethought on the part of the middle managers.

    charlie

    Well folks there is one thing you can feel good about, if you leave
    it sounds like the job prospects for engineers and other people who
    do real work is a lot better right now. So sharpen those skills. 
    
    Anybody care to guess the odds of a DEC middle manager finding 
    something besides: "would you like fries with that"?
    
    

    re: -1 -- 
    
    Digital middle managers can and do find something else besides
    hamburger flipping to do with their time.  Middle managers don't die,
    they become ICs!
    
    (only partially joking...)
    
    M.
    

    
    There appears to be some real threads of true in some of the previous 
    comments.  One of the items to come out of the San Diego MCS Boondoggle was
    that Digital will have a "Variable Work Force" and the MCS Managers will not
    be managing Digital Employees, but the Variable Work Force.
    
    
    dp
    

    We are losing approximately two employees a week in the Central region. 
    I know of several that are close or at least interviewing and most have
    their resumes out somewhere (sales).  This is becoming a big problem as
    our sales force that was meant to be "the team" leaves.
    
    lhr

    
    	Of course Digital can exist with mostly mgrs.   My brother-in-law
    is a corp level mgr with a very large construction company (and his
    father before him was, too) and they have very few (less than 1% non-
    mgrs.).  They do only heavy construction, interstates, bridges, dry
    docks, etc.   Everywhere they contract they just hire the equipment &
    people required.  The interstate across a state can be build with
    workers, trucks, and materials rented/purchased locally.  I aske why
    an interstate is made of different material as one drives across a
    state.   Answer: we buy locally whatever is best priced for a bid.
    Most of their multi-billion company is in a not too large building
    in Omaha.   Can a company do that with high-tech??   Ask any Japanese!
    So, his building in Omaha has a few hundred mgrs., some sec'ys, some
    cleaning people, cafeteria staff, etc.   But, the brunt of the business
    is all done by mgrs.  This is also very common, and has been done for
    years, in the home construction trade and other industries.  Guess
    what's a gonna happen to high-tech folks??
    
    bon chance, y'all!!

    Well,
    
    I have to agree with .3.  My last day with Digital will be Friday,
    23-SEP-94.  I am ooohhhh soooooo tired of pay freezes, management
    bulls**t, etc. etc. etc.  My manager told me that they thought this was
    the best move I could make.  I was told that I am too talented and have
    too much to offer to stay at DEC.  Best Wishes to all those still here
    and take care.............
    
    click - (light going off)
    
    Gc

    
    re: .6
    
    Contract (definition) - DEC refuses to hire me several years ago at a
                            marginal salary because I asked for too much.
                            Two years later I walk in the door at 170%
    			    of former offer as employees exit right and
                            left.
    
    Only in Corporate America.

    The motion picture industry today works as "virtual corporations" like
    the construction industry described above.
    
    It didn't used to be like this, back in the days of the powerful
    studios.  An interesting series of documentaries on PBS recently,
    hosted by Patrick Stewart, describes the rise and fall of MGM.
    
    In the late 50's and early 60's the bean counters took over and
    started cutting costs.  All the contract actors were let go, and
    it was a big shock to them.  They were used to a steady paycheck.
    Ricardo Montalban described how he was worried at the time - with 4
    kids and no regular paycheck.
    
    After this MGM was just a shell, and the studios no longer controlled
    production.  The director's influence grew and that is how it is done
    today.  Everything is done by people who have a contract for a single
    movie.  Some contributors are small companies that do have employees,
    but the company as a whole has a project-related contract.  Special
    effects firms, like Industrial Light and Magic, for example.
    
    This sounds a lot like the transition DEC is going through.

    re: .15
    Comparing us to the construction business is a poor analogy. The
    construction industry is a prime contractor who hires sub-contractors
    who work with commodity building materials. That might be a fair
    analogy to compare that to a Systems Integration company, but even
    at that, the knowledge required to be successful in the SI business
    would dwarf that required in construction.
    
    You also imply Digital would be void of any product to sell, that is
    anything that would require development. Of course you could contract
    out product development, but you'd have very little control. Things
    like NRE, cost overruns, delays and such would kill you.
    
    You can't simply take things other people make, re-label them, mark
    them up and sell them. Sears and Radio-Shack were successful at that
    for quite a few years, until the competition from the BJ's, Sam's
    etc. The competition in our industry is much tougher, smarter,
    hungrier.
    
    Sorry, it won't work. IMHO, what Digital needs to do is drastically 
    thin out the management ranks, right along with the businesses its 
    getting out of. Until it does, things will only get worse.
    

    re: Note 3401.6 by BIGQ::GARDNER
    
    > The key word to remember here, folks, is CONTRACT!
    
    Triple my salary.  I'll buy my own "benefits".  The main drawback to
    consulting/contracting is security.  This requires some planning on
    your part.
    
    The drawback to any company who relies heavily on consultants is ZERO
    loyalty.
    

    The main drawback is security....  Well, since security is gone....

    > When do I get a triple salary?
    
    When you walk out the door and name your own salary (depending on what
    your skills are).

    
    It looks like I called the current situation pretty well back in notes 
    2873.21 and 3120.16.
    
    However, I've found that being right too soon at digital is more
    punishable a 'sin' than screwing up royally when the chips are down.
    
    I've often suspected that this was because the mediocre were more
    comfortable (less threatened) seeing demonstrations of mediocraty than
    they were demonstrations of excellence.
    
    But I've come to expect such things in the land of A is Non-A.
    
    
    Publius
    

    
    When I go to buy a computer, even though I paid 1000's for the current
    one I use and pay money to maintain it, I continue to look for other
    computers that can do the same thing (or more) at less cost and with
    less maintenance cost.  When I find one, I sell the old computer (at
    its current market price) even though I am sad to see that old friend
    go and buy the new one (which undoubtedly will be substantially cheaper
    and give substantially better performance).
    
    I don't continue spending money on the old one which was expensive in
    the first place (and doesn't perform well relative to my neighbor's)
    when I could buy a cheaper one that will do much more and cost much
    less to maintain.  This strategy saves me lots of money and improves my
    ability to get work done.
    
    I am not the type to continue to keep old technology in my house for
    sentimental reasons or whatever when there is much better in the
    industry.
    
    Can this philosophy be applied to Digital's managers?  Is Digital
    overpaying them (relative to the value they actually bring to the
    company versus hiring someone else at a cheaper rate)?  Perhaps this
    philosophy only works with computers?
    
    Dennis
    

Re:  .19

>    You can't simply take things other people make, re-label them, mark
>    them up and sell them. Sears and Radio-Shack were successful at that
>    for quite a few years, until the competition from the BJ's, Sam's
>    etc. The competition in our industry is much tougher, smarter,
>    hungrier.
>    
>    Sorry, it won't work. IMHO, what Digital needs to do is drastically 
>    thin out the management ranks, right along with the businesses its 
>    getting out of. Until it does, things will only get worse.
 

You'd better add digital to your list of 'taking things other people make...'
We've been doing it for decades now; we *used* to sell Radio Shack's PCs with
our name on them for crying out loud!  How 'bout laser-, line-, and personal-
printers.  We don't make the majority of them (Canon, Ricoh, Printronix,etc.)!
Disks?  Nope.  Media?  Nope.  Alpha chips??????  The list goes on...

Yes, it doesn't work, but it's served us well, because of "value added"--that,
of which, seems to be dwindling at an increasing rate.

    Why can't we see the OBVIOUS Solution!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Regarding all the last notes.......
    
    WHY DON'T WE CONTRACT MANAGEMENT!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    sure would break up the beaurocracy!
    
    no smiley.....as this ain't really funny.  But what the hell, what GOES
    around, COMES around.
    
    chet

    re: .25
    My, you seem to have a strong opinion here. By not including Digital
    I didn't explicitly exclude them. The bottom line here is, NOBODY is
    going to pay inflated prices today. BTW, I don't agree that Digital
    ever added any value in re-selling. They thought that because it said
    Digital on it people would buy it. Large customers with deep pockets
    had the money. It was easy to buy it all from DEC, usually they had
    money to burn, like GM, EI Dupont, etc. But it was never because we
    added any real value. If that were true, we would have sold to the
    small customers too, but we never did. Hell, you couldn't even get a
    sales rep to call you back unless you had an order for a hundred VAX's
    or something.
     
    

    That's a GREAT idea. Contract the equivalent of project managers to
    manage the already available resources (us). The blow 'em out the door 
    when it's over, or hire them again for fresh projects. Sounds like it'll
    help keep the corruption in line, especially if they're watched over
    with the attitude that they're outsiders instead of good old boys
    feeding at the trough.
    
    PS, you're fired.
    
    
    );^)

    
    	Contracting mgmt. isn't new.   Even in some east coast papers there
    are ads for temp VP's.   Last ads I saw were in the $55K to $95K range.
    Keep in mind this could be a very large step down for some VP that has
    been making $550K/year or more...$95K would probably pay some of his
    green fees but not much towards decent limo service.

    Re: .27
    
    Why, I don't believe I (my .25) stated an opinion--they were facts that
    should've been known about who built many of our components.
    
    I do agree with you that digital "...[didn't add] any value in re-selling." 
    We did, however, proportedly, add value in a difference of function,
    connectivity, personnel that delivered the services, et cetera.  The
    main reason Mr.-small-customer didn't go with us was that even with the
    "added value", it was still too expensive.  That's now changed
    somewhat, with things such as PCs, printers (and the like) are considered
    commodities and such should have a fair "street price"--we are still
    higher in that market too, albeit only slightly.  But we're again
    touting the "added value" message to justify the higher price.
    
    But what I see as being "Out the Door" is this added value in many of
    the services and also for digital to demand $150-200 per hour for a
    consultant that can't necessarily add value--especially since that
    consultant can no longer call the CSC when they're in a bind.
    
    Now Mr. Stanley, you can consider the last paragraph my opinion, maybe
    even a strong one.  Isn't what these notes files are all about?
    
    Jesse
                  

RE: .3

If you think things are so bad What are you waiting for? you can leave
and don't let the door hit you on your way out. And that applies to ALL
of The other WHINERS in here.

    
    
    
    re .31
    
    
    If all of us 'whiners' left, you might have to WORK for a living...
    then you'd find out first hand what all the fuss is about..
    
    ;-)

    	Re .15

    	.19 is correct when he says your analogy is not correct. The
	two industries have many similar characteristics, but just
	because one successfully uses commodity labor does not mean
	the other can. I can go into detail on the reasons if you
	like.

    
    	Re .19
    
	While I agree with much of what you say, you make the statement:

> but even
> at that, the knowledge required to be successful in the SI business
> would dwarf that required in construction.
    
    	Are you saying the running a successful SI business is many
    	time harder than running a successful construction business?
    
    						Ed
    
    

    re .33
    
    
    Yes, I do believe it would be much tougher to be successful as a
    systems integrator than running a construction business. The key word
    is success. The knowledge required in the construction industry, while
    not insignificant, does not require the breadth of knowledge or the
    number of specialists you'd need to succeed in SI. Consider the number
    of large construction companies in the US today, and then the number
    of systems integrators (those capable of large projects in both cases).
    I think you'll find a lot more construction companies, which would
    suggest they are sharing a lot more of the pie.

    <.-1>Having worked in both induxtries, I can safely say you are talking
    out of your hat.
    
    martin

    re:.31
    
    I think you've missed the point in this conference. Noone's "whining"
    about anything. People are concerned that the company is headed in the
    wrong direction. A company that they have worked for, for years. A
    concern that no one in management seems to be asking the right people
    (that's the rest of us - all of us) how WE think things could be
    improved. Not that they are required to do so. But we are the ones
    doing the business - whatever unit you're in - and we *might* have an
    answer or two. So, Digital loses those people to customers and
    competetors. Many of those that have left at my site are the TOP
    people. They're frustrated and angry. Okay, so they left. It'll take
    Digital YEARS to replace their expertise, if they ever do. In the
    meantime, the company suffers because of a "brain drain".
    
    

    re .31
    
    maybe because I have hung with this company for 12 1/2 years and happen
    to have faith in the hardware and software we have developed and
    supported.  The last two years have been extremely difficult, and I
    really wish management would quit with the constant reorgs, downsizing,
    etc. and ask me what I need to do to keep our revenue and profit coming
    in.  (IE delighting customers)
    
    If asking to have input, as an employee (supposedly empowered) and a
    stock holder is whining, then it is obvious why the lines of
    communication seem to be cut.
    
    meg

    re: .35
    25 years in product development in this industry and having relatives 
    in the construction business, I know your wrong. So you've got your
    opinion and I've got mine. BTW, did you leave a successful construction
    business to come here ???????????????
    Have a nice day 8>).

    Wellllll, I wuz gonna stay out of this one -- BUT -- the "whine"
    comment got me goin'!
    
    Digital is leading the pack in where Hardware vendors need to be in the
    90s and beyond -- Like it or not, the industry is changing and those
    who adapt are the only ones who will survive.
    
    Digital seems to have a wake-up call (finally) and I don't believe the
    wake-up call is exclusively limited to the SLT -- A key point in one of
    Palmer's DVN was "top-down-management" --- Clearly a message to the
    members of the Country club that things have changed -- Some clubbers
    went into denial on this one -- Rumor has it that the management
    organization between the SLT and me and thee were told:  'Do it this
    way -- or hit the highway."  Great -- sort of paying for the sins of
    the past.
    
    Now,  we have superior (from the Street Peddler) products in the ALPHA
    product suite -- the marketing organization seems to be coming off of
    life support systems and is becoming coherent --- the competition is
    going to hit the great wall of 64-bittiness with all its pain.
    
    The pendulum is swinging our way again -- The competition is nervous --
    We have a better story than anyone -- We need to come off of this
    nightmare we have been in and recognize that we need to change with the
    market and that means adopting a staffing g model that let's the
    company be successful.   
    
    Having said all of that, I submitted my resignation last monday to
    pursue other interests -- I did it because of significant career
    opportunity -- not because Digital is in the dumper -- The folks who
    stay here need to have a single focus -- Kick Ass!
    
    My MOST Humble .02
    
    Dennis

    RE .31
    
    You're absolutely right !!! After all, no one in the conference has
    any RIGHT to complain about ineffectual leadership, loss of spending
    power because of wage freezes, mega-chute clauses in upper management
    contracts.  They should all just bend over and take it.

    
    One thing that a hasn't been mentioned here is the number of angry
    ex-employees out there influencing or making decisions about what
    company their new employer will deal with.  I talked to a consultant
    type the other day who said that nearly all his group has been
    "tfso"ed.  He has remained in contact with many of them who tell
    them that Digital will _never_ get any business from their new
    employer if they can help it.

    For years, Digital banked on the "no layoffs" to keep wages down.
    The security is gone.  My group has lost over 30% in the last year.
    Only two of those to "tfso".  Most of them from having "other
    opportunities" _now_ and not wanting to wait for the ax to fall
    before starting to job hunt.  Sad part is that most of those who
    have "other opportunities" are among the best employees.  Not a
    knock on anyone still here now, but sooner or later, you're only
    left with those who have no place else to go.

    fred();

    
    re: "Variable Work Force"
    
    	That's a byoot of a term; does this mean we need to hand over our 
    tweekers to management? You've just gotta love them. I can see this
    whole new relationship blossoming between:
    
    	"The Tweekers and the Variable Work Force"
    
    - Jim K
    
    P.S "Tweeker" is a term coined by FS techs in the 70s, 80s, etc. for a
        small flat blade screwdriver used to adjust pots on various
        devices (remember TU45s?). 
                                    

    Hey Jim......sounds like MCS management is taking a lesson from IDC!
    
    sound familiar?   
    
    Let's TFSO all the workers, and manage em from afar.......
    
    sickening.

    
    
    I'm here (and intend to stay here as long as I can) for TWO reasons:
    
    I LOVED DEC....I keep hoping that DEC will break out from behind this
    ugly mask of DIGITAL and come back in some form on another....
    This is the best job I've ever had. (and it used to be even better)....
    I think that we can turn this place around and rise again IF we can get
    someone who has power to listen to reason....that's been the hard part.
    
    Reason 2 is: I work from home. 
    I don't have to come into the office everyday...fight the traffic and
    the weather..I KNOW I've got a good thing going here. I KNOW that I
    would be very hard pressed to find such a great opportunity anywhere
    else. You can't begin to imagine what a benefit it is to be able to
    work from home. I've discussed this in other notes, so this isn't new..
    
    Why do I fight so hard against the STUPIDITY and the suicidal plans of
    an uninformed and out of touch mgt? Becaues I know that if this company
    or the center goes down the tubes, I'll be out driving to work in the
    snow and wearing dress clothes to work again everyday till I'm 65. 
    I have TOO MUCH to lose to just sit back and let people screw up the
    best job I've ever had and the best company I've ever worked for.
    Why do I put notes into the notesfiles? Because knowledge is POWER
    and I've found that too many times people are not aware of some
    REALLY ASSININE plan that is going into affect (or has already been put
    into affect) and so can't do anything to try and change it (or stop it)
    and stupid things get implemented much to the surprise of those who are
    most negatively impacted.  
    You could not begin to guess how much personal mail I get every day, or
    how many people stop me in the hall (when I do have to go into work
    to pick something up or drop something off) and thank me for bringing
    some point to their attention or for saying something that THEY wanted
    to say. I know that the same happens to others who enter notes on
    matteres important to other employees. 
    Someone said in another note that the only way we can survive is by
    sticking together and doing what's right for Digital, the customer and
    each other......the old triangle. It's been tossed by upper mgt, but
    NOT by the people who are 'in the trenches'. 
    That's what alot of these notes are about. Keeping each other informed
    and helping to address issues that could have a disasterous impact on
    all of us is absolutely necessary.....
    If it sounds like whining, maybe it is, maybe it's whining in sheeps
    clothing. Use what you can to get by, and pitch the rest......
    
    my 'buck-three-eightys' worth
    

    
    
    
      I think we are missing something with the "value added" thing a while
     back. Buying PCs from Digital certainly has value added - a lot of
    service value. There is a big service organization backing up anyone
    who buys a Digital PC. Case in point - the Radio Shack (Tandy) PCs we
    sold with our name on them. I can remember situations where the Tandys
    had some engineering bugs in the hardware - we flew PC Harwdare Design
    Engineers to the customer site to view the problem and console the
    customer first hand.
      I cant remember now how many times I've been called to go to a
    customer who has many DECpc's with problems. Often they have only
    just purchased the PC's and are insisting "all these new PCs I've
    bought are broken". Yah right, I now our manufacturing quality control
    is better than that. Often its because a) the customer does not under-
    stand something about PCs like memory management and has set them up
    wrong or b) some var or distributer has added something to the PC to
    cause them not to work properly (like a virus).
      No matter what it is - if the customer has a problem we go, often the
    same day or next day without even a mention of who will pay the
    bill(often we give it away).
      
    
     I've followed the PC revolution since 1980 when I worked in some of
    this countries first computer (PC) stores and believe me buying a PC
    from Digital gets you value added ITS CALLED SERVICE.

I'm with cathy on this one. I'm staying as long as possible too.
I also loved the old DEC and want it back. Plus I'm learning new
skills and working with a team that is very supportive of me. 

And one really big factor. I've worked in several other corps both
large and small. The grass is pretty much the same everywhere. The
big difference is with the people you spend most of your day with.
And I *like* the folks I'm with. liesl

p.s. Dilbert is showing you what it's like *everywhere" unless you
start your own company.

pp.s What's the Celebris called in the EPP catalog on VTX? I didn't
see it.

    Liesl,
    
    	I don't see Celebris either. Looking at the GIADEV::DECpcENG
    notesfile, Celebris would be the FR-82*, FR-83* & FR-84*. 
    
    - Jim K 

The EPP catalog on VTX only lists certain "specials".  You can order anything
Desktop Direct sells at the EPP discount.  I have a Celebris 590FP on order.

					Steve

    
    	Re .33 (Sorry...continued rathole...)
    
    	I must disagree with you. First I believe many more construction 
    	companies fail than SI companies. Even you seem to think this
    	is the notes you have written. If this was the case how could
    	it be harder to run an SI company? 
    
    	Also, there are very few *large* construction companies in the U.S.
    	For example I believe there were three bidders on Boston's
    	third harbor tunnel. There are only a few companies capable of
    	handling jobs of that size.
    
    	I understand that having in-laws in the business may give you
    	some insight into it, but I suspect I have a little more, and
    	running a successful construction company is a *very* difficult
    	thing to do.
    
    						Ed
    
    
    

    
    	Yup, my brother-in-law was there in Boston bidding that and also
    the terrible sewage ststem that apparently needs replacement.  He's
    got many years experience, degreed in that, and his father before him
    did the same for the same company.
    
    	They employ no "labor", it's all subbed and subbed again....like
    hi-tech will be to compete worldwide.   He's hires contractors who
    in turn hires local engineers who hire managers who hire grunts and
    heavy equipment.
    
    	When he returned he told me it wasn't so much a big job as a messy
    one.   Not to mention the Boston area is, to him, the you know what of
    the USA.  I won't know for awhile if his company gets the job....if
    so, he's probably gonna get sucked into directing the planning and
    "field work" (as he calls it) on-site.
    
    	Yup, in the future more & more companies will be doing that...
    look computer companies & help desk/support operations.   An ex-UM
    from the Atlanta is now workin' a help desk/support operation in
    ohio and gets the top salary for a tech job in his company...$7/hr!
    
    	The standards of living in the USA MUST drop!   No, I don't like
    it either....but it's a comin', folks!   Ask your kids that have just
    graduated from college and what they're being told (also seeing on
    their own!).   We have to equalize the USA with the World or we cannot
    compete.   Isolation is out for the 21st Century.   We're locked into
    a downslide.   No, it may not apply to "you" specifically, but if it
    doesn't directly you will feel it and your kids will take the
    hammerin'.
    
    	Where was I.....yeah, Boston project...yuch!

    
    	-1
    
    	You need some of that Prozac in YOUR wheaties!
    
    	Get serious. Maltheus has been dead for 200 years, and his economic
    theories totally forgot about technologies and the growth of an
    industrialized society. We do not live in an agrarian age anymore.
    
    	Digital will survive, and grow - maybe not this year, but
    definitely next. Don't let local conditions muddy what is really
    happening here. We ARE seeing more and more companies willing to
    discuss Alpha/networking/Desktop technologies that we are uniquely
    positioned to supply.
    	While downsizing are painful and extended, ours is necessary.
    The end will not be in sight until Digital is down to 48-52K employees.
    I wish I could give better news on this scenerio, but business/market
    realities are already in place. We are living in the most turbulent
    times in the computer industry. Much like working in the American
    automobile industry in the 80s. But such is life. We do not come with
    guarantees.
    	Please try to cheer up a bit. We can win, and grow, and be quite
    the comeback. Watch!
    
    		the Greyhawk

    I for one do not understand why we're not profitable right now. They've
    already lopped of over a third of the population, sold off and plan
    to sell many facillities, cut employee benefits (dental plan pays out
    based on 1986 rates), no raises, etc, etc, and on and on. And we haven't 
    turned the bleeping corner YET ? The gross revenues, while down some, 
    are not down that much, aren't we still like a $13.45 B company or 
    something ? 
    

    RE .46 I agree 90% of the time the grass is not greener on the other
    side. If you want greener you have to work and then work at it.
    
    
    Regards Denis

Oh, yeah? Keith (with a 66xx employee number) turned in his badge today because
of the Digital "tap".

>================================================================================
>Note 3401.51                    Race to the Door?                       51 of 51
>POBOX::CORSON "Higher, and a bit more to the right"  25 lines  23-SEP-1994 11:05
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                      -< Keith, it's not quite THAT bad >-
>
>    
>        -1
>    
>        You need some of that Prozac in YOUR wheaties!

    
    	I am sorry for Keith and his family. My note still stands. 

    Re. 45 (more ratholing)- As a call screener on the weekends/
    weeknights I turn away all the PC users wanting support because 
    there isn't any. There is no phone support afterhours. They 
    certainly DO NOT think we provide good PC support. They are 
    angry and most of them say they are taking back their purchase.
    

    
    re: .-1, I have to agree with that, as the Field downsizes to
    next-to-nothing, customers will most definately notice the level of
    service going down. Service calls that would have been responded to
    with minutes in the old DEC Field Service days will languish for days
    because what few engineers that are left are too busy dropping
    everything to respond to a
    'guaranteed-we'll-be-there-in-two-hours-or-die' PC call that some
    manager in never-never (never been there, never will) land promised
    some nationwide customer. 
    
    The mentality these days seems to spring from the PC thinking, "Get rid
    of them old guys who can fix VAX's, we don't make/sell/need them
    anymore, we got PC's!, and any idiot can fix a PC, right?"
    
    The next time your cluster is hosed, send in the PC fixers.
    
    .mike.
    Still annoyed, right here in River city.
    

    re: -1, I must also agree.  Many talented MCS engineers are leaving
    to supply our customers with experienced system managers.  Those that
    are left are getting buried with calls and are still being dumped on
    about not meeting metrics.  This fuels the rush to the door.
    
    Bright side?  We don't have to tfso (in my office) because enough
    have left on their own.  
    
    I don't think Digital has considered the enormous (average 10+ yrs?)
    investment in professional skills training, customer satisfaction
    experience and technical training that "walks" when one of these
    folks leave.  It sure must please our competition!
    
    

    RE:-1, I attend my District's Leadership meeting on a weely basis. This
    meeting includes all MCS Service delivery managers. The meeting went
    through its' normal agenda and finally came to the open discussion
    section. I took the opportunity and asked the group the following
    question:
    
    	"What does everyone think about the number of engineers leaving?"
    
    
    .........................................................>>Silence
    
    I rest my case.
    
    Regards
    To Your Success
    Rick

    IMHO, MCS is positioning itself to be sold off - lowering overhead to 
    the point that the numbers look good to a potential buyer - its just
    the the 'overhead' being lowered are the people who actually do the
    work, not the true overhead.  FWIW - wait 'till the powers that be
    figure out how many of the rest of us are leaving!  How do you manage
    without people to manage?

    re .60: "FWIW - wait 'till the powers that be figure out how many of the 
    rest of us are leaving!  How do you manage without people to manage?"
    
    This has never seemed to be a problem at Digital before.  Are you
    suggesting that a manager needs to have people reporting to them?

    
.60> How do you manage without people to manage?
    
    You do what SES/IDC is doing to preserve their management empire.
    

    This is going to be fun to watch.  I continue to maintain that our #1
    problem is management.  So, we bring in new management at the top, and
    tra-ling! Management is a core competancy. Only a management
    organization with no accountability could come up with this idea.
    
    charlie

    Look at last year's Annual Report and the listing of the Officers,
    which we called the "Senior Leadership Team", which is now called the 
    "Corporate Management Committee".  Count the number of managers no longer 
    with us, or moved to less responsibility.  This high turn-over is
    from the carefully selected leaders such as Gresham Brebach, Ed
    Lucente...  This should give some credence to the previous note about
    management being our biggest problem.  We can't take our time and
    select the correct ones (I'm not knocking Gresh or the others that are
    gone, in particular I liked Gresh and he has been a successful manager
    outside Digital).  

    If MCS really is positioning itself for a sell-off, I hope they have
    better luck then the now-defunt (in my view) Digital Consulting. If you
    can get out of this puzzle palace, err fun house, good luck and god's
    speed to you!
    
    --- Gavin

    Oh, I was actually being serious and not sarcastic in that last note.
    Just reread it and saw that it could be taken a few ways. :)
    
    --- Gavin
    

    Wonderful observation, by the way.  "Hey, DCS is SOOOOOO valuable we
    wanna sell it for kajillions!  You don't wanna buy it?!?  OK, disband
    it, toss it, it's a wrap, let's move on..."
    
    Has anyone checked the water up at HQ?

    According to info I heard in a meeting this morning, MCS is bringing in
    a PROFIT of some $600 million per quarter. Yet Digital is losing around
    $200 million per quarter. That means that the rest of the company is
    losing $800 million per quarter. How long would the rest of Digital
    last if they sold MCS to get a one-time cash infusion? Not long....
    
    It's estimated that MCS could be sold today for about $2.1 billion.
    That would be gone pretty quickly at $800 million per quarter. :-(
    
    Harry
    

    I never believe one group's "profit" claims.
    
    When you roll such claims up, you end up with a company making many
    billions of dollars of "profit", while we continue to bleed. 
    
    This is not to say that MCS is not profitable; but a dose of NaCl is in
    order..
    
    ...tom

    re -1
    
    absolutely!  you'd be amazed at how (put your fav group name here) bean
    counters can juggle numbers... and at how many expense items are
    deferred and put at the feet of (put your least fav group name here).
    
    

    re: -1,2,3
    
    To say nothing of how "expenses" can be "allocated" to the 
    "responsible" cost centers and "revenue" can be transferred 
    to the "creation" unit.  Forget the pea under the walnut 
    husk - this is the real shell game!