Conference 7.286::digital

    another one bites the dust

    
    Just when my son was getting old enough for me to care about this...
    

    Stop complaining and start doing!

    
    Re .3:
    
    Why do you assume that one can work hard to make Digital a success, or
    one can mourn the passing of DEC, but one cannot do both?
    

    Somehow, someway all of the moaning and groaning has got to stop. If
    everybody keeps this "poor me" attitude up, there won't be any Digital
    or any jobs at all. Toughen up! It's a cruel world out there! Stop
    mourning the passing of DEC-- that's an era gone by.... Look to the
    future because looking back won't do you, your coworkers, or your
    family any good at all.....
    
    GET ON WITH IT!

    .5
    
    
    
    Easy for you to say....

    No-- It's not easy for me to say.....
    
    Just an example- I have had 14 managers in 25 months of employment with
    Digital (3 left in the last two months alone)....needless to say life
    isn't so pretty......
    
    It's easy to complain-- so people do it-- It takes courage to shut up
    and move forward.....
    
    We have to stop bitching about everything, draw the line, move
    forward or get out of the game somewhere along the line.....
     

    
    as Iacoca said '...if you can find a better deal, then TAKE IT!"

>================================================================================
>Note 3327.5                   more benefits killed                        5 of 8
>GRANMA::AFILIP                                        8 lines  15-AUG-1994 11:01
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                       -< No Sympathy-- Just get going! >-
>
>    Somehow, someway all of the moaning and groaning has got to stop. If
>    everybody keeps this "poor me" attitude up, there won't be any Digital
>    or any jobs at all. Toughen up! It's a cruel world out there! Stop
>    mourning the passing of DEC-- that's an era gone by.... Look to the
>    future because looking back won't do you, your coworkers, or your
>    family any good at all.....
>    
>    GET ON WITH IT!
>

The result of all the cutting has been NIL. Morale is an all time low, 
continuing to cut everywhere possible has not increased profits.

Some years ago the SIX-A-SIDE football was cut, it was a pan European
competition, it did not cost a lot directly to Digital as many countries
work councils paid for some of the expenses. It was something I and many
of my colleagues looked forward to every year.

There is nothing left for an employee to look forward to, no rises, no
promotion, little or no training, little or no future.

Its a cruel world out there but no other company has got back to profit
doing the DEC way.

Ren� El Gringo

>================================================================================
>Note 3327.7                   more benefits killed                        7 of 8
>GRANMA::AFILIP                                       12 lines  15-AUG-1994 11:08
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                               -< Top this.... >-
>
>    It's easy to complain-- so people do it-- It takes courage to shut up
>    and move forward.....
>    
>    We have to stop bitching about everything, draw the line, move
>    forward or get out of the game somewhere along the line.....
>     

It takes no courage to shut up. It takes courage to speak up and be counted.

Has anybody measured the consequences of cutting other than saving a few 
dollars. The consequential cost of cutting is than more and more people
Digital needs are leaving.

Ren� El Gringo

    
    
    		Baaa-aaa-aaa-aaaa; Baaaa-aaa-aaaaa;
    
    				Pablo
    

    re .7
    
    25 months??
    
    Now there's a voice of experience...

    
    See personal-name...
    

    If somebody did not standup and say what was on their mind we would now
    have 25 mile virtual offices, get paid once every two weeks, and would
    be speaking the kings english :-)
    
    ray j

    Don't get me wrong---- there is absolutely nothing wrong with speaking
    up-- I'm saying that people need to get rid of this wounded animal,
    poor me mentality.... yes we're all suffering to an extent, but to
    steal an old football cliche, it's time to "suck it up and play with a 
    little pain, or there is no tomorrow"......
    
    re .12 Exactly..... the voice of NEW experience.....
    You sound a little afraid of a newcomer? 
    

    Refer to Hitch Hiker's Guide - do we all go and buy new shoes? Then buy
    stock in shoe manufacturers now, otherwise how about looking the world
    in the face and saying if Germans can bring down a very nasty Wall,
    South Africans can bring in the vote (we're still working on equality -
    but then where in the world isn't?) 'ordinary' people can log in and
    grab NASA piccies of Shoemaker (or however it spells), then maybe, just
    maybe, we are capable of achieving great things, when we put our minds
    to it......COLLECTIVELY! I can't do it alone, neither can the 'young' 
    Maverick, but what if, what if, what if we tried all pulling together in 
    the same direction??
                                                
    Imagination - use it before you lose it.  (-8-)
                                                
    Whichever way you look at it, you've got to smile....

    Hey !! Maverick ,,,  Don't forget to turn out the lights.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Sure hope you get a nice raise for having such a great attitude.
    
    
    mg

    I agree with Arthur.
    
    You guys should stop complaining about every little thing that must be
    cut to turn the place around. 
    
    This is such a nothing benefit - I am glad the company is not WASTING
    another dime on it.
    
    Michael

    Yes it is true that you should speak up.
    
    Speak up with thoughts on ways we can improve - better things we can
    cut - why we should not cut anymore
    
    25 months in the company is all you need to know what kind of people
    help and those who don't

    
>    This is such a nothing benefit - I am glad the company is not WASTING
>    another dime on it.
    
    Spoken like a person without a promising and intelligent teenager...
    
    If it was such a nothing benefit, what would it cost Digital to
    continue it?
    

    I agree with .20 here. Try and get a college education is no cheap
    thing to attempt.

>    You guys should stop complaining about every little thing that must be
>    cut to turn the place around. 
>    
>    This is such a nothing benefit - I am glad the company is not WASTING
>    another dime on it.

	Sure, in the grand scheme of things this is a very small benefit. So
	were
	- Canobie Lake
	- Turkeys
	- Funding and facilities for clubs and leagues
	- Wellness centers and exercise equipment
	- Matching gifts
	- Tuition reimbursement
	- Larger vacation accrual
	- Pay Raises

	All those trivial little benefits used to do is make this a good
	place to work. And there's no evidence that more cuts will "turn the
	place around." But there is certainly enough evidence that every
	little cut drives another spike into the morale coffin.

	Roy

    As per 3337.12, I refer to my Spiral theory'?'
    
    I've been out, I've come back in, still seems stuck on the Downward Spiral
    model.    Moaning etc. I have zero interest in, I just want to know how to
    activate, promote and effect the Upward Spiral model. If they were so right
    why is it still failing? So what the hell, go fo a new approach. Shock
    hell out of the industry, and all the sub-industries (Media ANALYSTS
    etc.) 
                                    IMAGINE......
    
    Gloom and doom merchants shocked to death in Digital Positivity Shock wave
    Revolution. Worldwide repercussions. Digital coming out of the closet.
    Sales not just to other departments and existing 'bound in' customers
    but to new areas of business. Press Horror - who do we slag now fears.
    Digital employees found laughing at Press cutbacks - Publications co to
    axe 47% of editorial staff!! Revenge is sweat(.)
    
    All together now, WE WILL SUCK SEEDS, WE WILL SUCK SEEDS, WE WILL.....
              

    If tuition has been killed - than someone is giving me periodic gifts
    that cover my courses.
    
    I still say that this is a nothing benefit - have your promising
    children work their way through school like I did.
    
    Benefits will come back when we come back.

>>    This is such a nothing benefit

Deletion of this benefit will cost me several thousand dollars in the next
four years. To me, this is a substantial pay cut.

--RS

    It's not so much the quality of the benefit itself that is the issue
    here, it is yet another case of "benefit erosion".  I know that nobody
    cares that Digital was listed as the most desirable company to work for
    10 years ago and now is not listed in the top 500.  I am perfectly
    capable of buying my own $8 turkey.  I'm paying my son's tuition
    perfectly well without assistance and should be able to do the other
    kids as well.  But some people aren't in the same position that I am
    and, come to think of it, I may not be in the same position by the end
    of the year.  The last major change in the benefits packages that
    effected me was the change that forced me to go to an HMO.  A byproduct
    of that change is that some of my family gets much better medical care at a
    reasonable cost.  The change in this tuition assistance plan is that it
    is now gone and has not been replaced.  

If your kid qualifies for a National Merit Scholarship, there are lots of
ways of getting one other than from your employer.  Colleges sponsor large
numbers of them.

    Some perspective, please... None of this is unique to Digital.
    
    I've been talking in the last week with friends from AT&T, Northern
    Utilities (Public Service of NH), and a construction company that's
    building the sewage treatment extensions on Deer Island in Boston. 
    (The latter two, at least, are heavily unionized, so that issue's not
    germane.)
    
    They all report considerable backpeddling in their health insurance
    deals -- more employee contribution, less coverage.  The AT&T guy says
    that his family coverage, which used to be free, now costs him
    $340/month!  His situation has changed somewhat, in that his daughter,
    formerly covered as a minor dependent, is now covered as an adult
    dependent -- but that's not the whole reason for the increased cost.
    
    Since these guys from widely differing industries report the same
    phenomenon, it seems inevitable that we'll see a big jump in the cost
    of our health bennies the next time around.
    
    It also seems that "benefit erosion" is a condition of the times, not
    something invented here.
    
    -Mark

>                                                         The AT&T guy says
>    that his family coverage, which used to be free, now costs him
>    $340/month!

I don't think DMP 1 family coverage was ever free, but it's now over $90/week.
That's more that your AT&T guy pays.

        Rat hole, but what the hay.

    I think you'll continue to see health insurance benefits erode.  It is
    in a large corporation's best interest to off-load the cost to the
    government.  The more pain they can place on Digital employees, the
    more we'll scream at them but also our representatives.  I'd expect to
    see further erosion if not out-right plan cancellation.

    chg

I doubt we'll ever see outright health benefits cancellation, especially
at a time when the whole USA is sensitized to the issue by Congress. Those
in favor of gvt health care claim that there is a looming disaster in the
uninsured. Those who oppose it claim there is nothing to worry about, 
business takes care of its own (i.e. most of us have access to good health
plans already). Listening to either of those arguments, the thought of 
Digital dropping healthcare benefits would send a shiver up my spine. That 
would send the remaining employees packing faster, and in far larger
numbers, than anything else short of a major pay cut. A rule of thumb I
have heard is that benefits such as health care account for about a 30% 
addition to your monetary salary, so they are nothing to be sneezed at. 
Whacking 30% off everyone's compensation would crash this company right
into the ground. Based on that, I wouldn't worry about it happening. It is
analogous to the Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine that governed the
Cold War: it is too destructive to trigger off, there is nothing left for
anybody.

Regarding the loss of Merit Scholarship funding, as a one-time finalist for 
a Merit 16 years ago (no, I didn't get it, I ain't quite that good!), I
find this very sad. Scholarships are funded from a wide variety of sources,
and every loss means another kid who may not be able to make it to college.
So those who might have gotten a Digital Merit will have to find some other
scholarship, which means that particular pool will be reduced, bumping
someone else to another one. Eventually, somewhere down the line, someone
will be bumped one step too far and fall out of the scholarship pool; there
just won't be enough to go around. It is a competitive, Darwinian arena,
and there will always be losers, but it is sad to see that we are making
it that much harder.

>    If tuition has been killed - than someone is giving me periodic gifts
>    that cover my courses.

	Tuition reimbursement is now limited to those courses for which
	there is a direct business need, as determiend byt he cost center
	manager (I believe). It used to be that you could take ANY course,
	even those that were completely unrelated to work, and get at least
	a 75% reimbursement. No more. And, the "direct business need" is
	very much at the whim of the group you're in. Some are very good.
	Others, not so good.

>    
>    I still say that this is a nothing benefit - have your promising
>    children work their way through school like I did.
>    

	And I suppose you had to hike up hill both ways, 12 miles barefoot
	in the snow, too. What a ridiculous attitude -- that nobody else
	should have it any better than you did. By that logic, why don't we
	all just work at manual labor, like our ancestors?

>    Benefits will come back when we come back.

	Why do you believe this? There has been no such indication from on
	high, and in my nearly 9 years with the company, I havee yet to see
	a benefit taken away, and then come back. 

	Roy

    re: .31
    
    I didn't mean to imply that Digital was considering dropping the health
    plan, but I do see an attitude shift on the part of employers. 
    Recently, McDonnel Douglas canceled the retirement healthcare of its
    retirees.  This is after they promised the benefits to entice some to
    retire.  It's in the courts, and I hope the company loses.
    
    Ford, General Motors, and Chrysler have all come out in favor of
    government health care.  Of course, the unions are screaming murder.
    It will all wash out - the only people that have money to pay for it,
    are us.  And until the system is reformed to display the true cost, it
    will keep going up.

    Final Thoughts-
    
    Digital is in no position to give anyone anything that costs money.
    
    If the benefit will DIRECTLY effect job performance - ie. job 
    required courses, than Digital must continue that benefit.  
    
    We must cut these types of benefits - We have waited too long already.
    
    I do believe that if/when Digital becomes profitable again things 
    will come back.  This is happening right now at WANG.
    
    

    What we are seeing here is a particular piece of US culture that has
    mystified me since I came here from New Zealand.  The use of companies
    as social welfare agencies.
    
    This approach to social welfare is patently stupid.  Its only benefit
    is it gets the Govt. incompetents out of the loop, and allows some
    amount of free market forces to reign.
    
    
    (a) It means social welfare is available largely to those employed by
    major companies, which is the major group that doesn't need it as much.
    
    (b) It means that within those companies, the employees are being
    unfairly treated, because the benefits are exactly the same as income,
    except it is not being factored into the normal salary/wage scales.
    
    (c) It means that companies which are in trouble are obliged to
    haemorage millions (sometimes billions) of dollars at exactly the time
    they need the dollars to continue their existence and their provision
    of jobs.
    
    (d) It distracts the companies from their core competencies
    
    (e) It ruins the market economics of having the consumers of a system
    directly interact with the providers of it
    
    
    For the people who think these benefits are worth it, don't you also
    think that Digital should
    
    	- negotiate with various TV manufacturers to get each employee a
    	  color TV?
    
    	- negotiate with various car repair companies to maintain my car?
    
    	- negotiate with various food wholesalers to get good grocery deals?
    
    
    Why not?  Whats the difference between maintaining my car and
    maintaining my body?  Between college scholarships and entertainment?
    
    
    Expect to see more of this cutting back on minority perks as the
    business realities of the 90's continue to sink in, as we are forced 
    to make better efforts at evenly paying our people for the benefits
    they bring to the company.
    
    
    /Bevin                       

    You are a smart employee Brett.
    
    

Digital's total compensation package includes salary and benefits.

The benefits have been significantly reduced over the last 3 years, and 
salaries are frozen.

Given this, and the dismal morale prevelent throughout the company, it has 
become very difficult to keep good people, and nearly impossible to attract
new ones.

Digital has very little time to get its sh*t together, or the inability to 
attract and keep good people will drive it out of business.

Bob

    I have been reading this note silently and I'd like to make an
    observation in the way of "attitude"-
    
    The person who seems to have the worst attitude is the 25 month old
    "Maverick" who insists WE have the moral problem.  By virtue of your
    own responses you are showing your obvious naitivity with Digital.  You
    seem to be trying to "boost" us up out this poor attitude by bullying
    us with your insensitive opinions.
    
    You have shown yourself to be every bit as negative as we can be and in
    addition, you seem narrow-minded and self-centered.  The only thing you
    have inspired me to do is write this note.
    
    My opinion on benefits-I'm sorry to see any benefits go, even ones that
    don't directly effect me.  I hope we can pull Digital out of this and
    get back on track.
    
    My opinion on "whining" in the file- I'd rather do it here than at
    home. 
    
    Good Luck

    re .38
    
    Here here!!!  I agree whole-heartedly.
    
    Scott

        From  ADA9X::BRETT 3327.35:
         
        "What we  are  seeing  here is a particular piece of US culture
        that has mystified  me since I came here from New Zealand.  The
        use of companies as social welfare agencies".
    
        It's  no mystery...companies  offer  benefits  to  attract/keep
        workers.  Sometimes these are negotiated items (individually or
        collectively), sometimes not, but benefits are virtually  never
        offered because of altruistic social welfare concerns.
        
        The  cash  equivalency  of  salary and benefits is  not  always
        linear, so employees are not unfairly treated, as you  suggest.
        For  example, the same medical package would cost more for  the
        self-employed than for  the  corporate  employee,  even  taking
        into account subsidies.
        
        Modern companies seek to  be  as flexible as possible about the
        kinds of benefits an individual  can  choose.    If  you prefer
        subsidized merchandise to health benefits, for example (because
        you  are  already  covered  by  your  spouse's    separate  job
        health benefits), that might be very appealing!

re: .35

Digital Australia provides all (I think that is correct), employees with
supplemental health insurance above that supplied by the government.  It also
provides employees above some level (and it isn't VP) with a car, maintenance,
fuel, and insurance.  I think the government requires Digital to charge the
employee some small amount each month for this.  Doesn't sound much different
than the U.S.

Bob

    I like the 25 month old mavrick.
    
    He seems to be able to put his head down and continue on selling.
    
    That is what the company needs - people who will try hard to help
    Digital succeed.

    Thank you Mr. London.....
    
    Hey .38--- I seemed to have ruffled a few feathers- well good. I save
    my sensitivities for home..... but the business world is indeed a
    Darwinian, capitalistic environment. Bob Palmer told you so in his DVN
    a few weeks ago. VP's are touring the country to tell you this over the
    next few weeks. I am saying the exact same thing, just not coating it.
    It's reality. 
    
    I indeed possess a big ego --- would you rather have your
    front lines filled an unconfident, low self-esteemed slob? Probably
    not. Your lively hood depends on Digital products and services being
    sold-- so for the part of this distribution and growth that still
    involves direct people, you'd better have hungry people out there, 
    especially with the uphill battle we all know we're in.....
    
    I am a warrior in Sales and I am here to  build the bank account- nothing
    more or less. I have adjusted to the computer industry's climate, 
    much to the way the company has asked of me in order to be successful-- 
    
    I am a hired gun--- I am here to win-- that involves throwing out the 
    negative thoughts and getting on with the
    job---> THIS IS MY POINT-- 
    
    I am not angry or trying to "bully" anyone-- sorry if the
    pointing out the truth made you feel that way.....
    
    
                                               

    Re .43
    
    If you're as good as you say you are, then DIGITAL will have no
    problems.
    
    I suggest you be careful with that pride, it may hurt you...
    
    Jim Morton

    WHAT'S THE PROBLEM ? WE DONT EVEN HAVE BATHROOM TISSUES
    
    

    
    
    RE: .43  Well it is understandable.  Your attitude.  Thing is it 
    ain't the real world as you say.  Most folks, when they get a bit 
    older realize that there is more to it then put your head down and 
    go.  People mello with age and look for things such as a company to
    grow old with, etc.  They'd like to think that they are appreciated.  
    
    
    Mike  

    >>>    Digital is in no position to give anyone anything that costs money.
    
    Except for VP salaries and bonuses to the president, of course. 
    
    The person who said it was a niggling little benefit was basically
    right -- BP's last raise would cover the entire National Merit and
    summer-school program for ten years.  We're talking 2 to 10 kids a
    year.  (My daughter went to St. Paul's summer program on this
    scholarship and discovered a career area that she hadn't even known
    about previously and is now pursuing with great pleasure and
    excitement, but that's not relevant to Digital's profitability.)  
    
    And that's precisely why cutting it is so annoying.  It's an amount
    that simply disappears beside the costs of closing plants, moving and
    re-moving people, hiring new VPs and kicking old ones out (presumably
    with golden parachutes), and all the other nonsense that goes on.  
    
    Being on the receiving end of it feels a little like the company is
    saying, "You are so worthless that you are not worth the smallest
    benefit."  I'm sure that didn't enter into any of the discussions; I'm
    sure it was done for the best of reasons (as for instance none of the
    students we've paid for were going into careers of interest to
    Digital.)  But of course they wouldn't say that because the rank and
    file is too stupid to understand, or doesn't have a business need to
    know, or something.  
    
    --bonnie

    
    My husband worked for a highly profitable company (SW development) that 
    merged with another highly profitable company.  Both businesses were
    rolling in cash.  After the merger:
    
    	- employees lost vacation accrual rights
    	- employees lost a week of vacation
    	- percent of health coverage charged to employees was increased by
    		30 percent
    	- employees lost offices with doors and went to a tiny cubicle
    		environment with no windows
    	- Senior executives got major bonuses.
    
    It's not just happening at Digital; it's happening everywhere.  And it
    doesn't necessarily have anything to do with profitability.
    

    WRONG!  It's not happening everywhere.  Consider SAP's health benefit
    plan:  Zero cost -- that's right -- 100% paid by the company FOR
    EMPLOYEES AND DEPENDENTS.  And three weeks of vacation, eligibility day
    1 of employment.  Digital has been screwing its employees over for
    years.  I used to think that this would hurt Digital when they needed
    to hire new employees.  Now its obvious that we're slowly but surely
    downsizing to zero.

    Oh yes, and I forgot -- SAP provides a matching 401 K plan as well.

    
    re .50
    
    Just curious, but what is SAP?
    
    -Steve
    

    You have to remember that what motivates people to work at a particular
    job is a complex mix of things. Monetary remuneration is just one of
    those. There are also the "social welfare" benefits to help you through
    the unpleasant things life can give you, as well as the personal
    satisfaction in doing a job you enjoy, that you are good at, with people
    you like and respect (and who reciprocate), and that lets you contribute
    to the world in a way that you are happy with. If all I wanted was
    money, I would go into business selling drugs. I could make a lot more
    than working at Digital. However, money is the *only* enticement there.
    It does not meet my personal moral standards, so it wouldn't give me
    any satisfaction. Instead of benefits, there would be people out to
    shoot me or throw me in jail. I doubt that the people I would have to
    associate with would be socially or intellectually stimulating.
    Altogether a crummy way to go through life. But I would be rolling in
    cash.

    So, back to reality...Digital has to provide a competitive mix of
    enticements to keep people and get new ones. In the US, it is now
    customary for employers to provide many of the benefits provided by the
    government in other countries. Which method is better is irrelevant.
    People want the total package one way or another, and if they can't get
    it working for Digital, they will look elsewhere. Over time, personal
    priorities change, and different sets of benefits will have different
    appeal.

    Re: Note 3327.32 by NOVA::SWONGER
    
�>    Benefits will come back when we come back.

�	Why do you believe this? There has been no such indication from on
�	high, and in my nearly 9 years with the company, I havee yet to see
�	a benefit taken away, and then come back. 
    
    Tuition reimbursement was yanked then restored.
    
    	BD�

    SAP is one of Digital's business partners, providing manufacturing,
    logistics, and financial application software.  

>    Tuition reimbursement was yanked then restored.
Only after a significant amount of "whining."

8^)

    
    	Come on, DECies - get with the program. Digital's benefits are not
    out of line with anybody's (with the exception of of SAVE program) when
    one considers the total dollar amount.
    	A cafeteria plan would probably solve most questions/displeasures
    in this thread. Each individual could pick their own benefits with a
    "fixed" dollar amount, and that would be that. The remainder is at your
    cost. It works at lots of companies, big and small, quite well.
    	For those of you all worked up over "social values" in the
    workplace, I suggest an article in the August 15th issue of Industry Week
    entitled "Life without Job Security" by Cliff Hakim. It's discussion
    of the social employment contract in the 90s business environment will
    be a real eye-opener.
    	The real world is always what the individual wants to make of it.
    Fortunately life is still "different strokes for different folks".
    	Digital is going to survive with us or without us. Pick a side,
    then play the game. Winners rule.
    
    			the Greyhawk

    Tuition reimbursment has not been restored to the way it was. I can not
    sign up for collge and have Digital pay...no questions asked.  I wanted
    to get an advanced degree in international business but my manager
    won`t buy off because there is no need for it in her group. They will
    not give me a job plan with further any further education as well.

    Oh, here we go again. The 12-step mentality - get with the program or
    continue to suffer from your mental illness; the martial metaphors -
    sale warrior; the arrogance and condescension thinly disguised in
    the standard 'game' analogies.  
    
    I'm thrilled many of the cynics & whiners have seen the light and
    feel converted to a new sense of direction and purpose. I'm disturbed
    that the diction and tone of this & other strings in the conference 
    is approaching the 'us vs. them'. Digital, My Digital. My ATTITUDE
    uber alles. DIG IT, or Leave it. Sheesh, how petty.
    
    We're starting to turn on each other like rats kept too long in
    high stress experiments. I really don't see that the benefits to
    science justify this behaviour....
    
    bk
    
    

    >Oh, here we go again. The 12-step mentality - get with the program or
    >continue to suffer from your mental illness
    
    	I dunno about you, but the "Love it or leave it" attitude you
    	deplore is not one I've ever encountered at 12 step meetings...
    
    	YMMV.
    					andrew

    
    	Don't know what 12 step meetings are. In the field we get to work
    all day. Meetings are for those who have nothing better to do is our
    attitude out here.
    	As for the love it or leave it stuff - the sales folks I know who
    are good (and are still here) are results focused. So when we read
    notes, and hear comments, that do not lead to a result, our basic
    reaction is this is Bull**** because we have better things to do -
    like sell stuff Digital makes.
    	For those who feel DECreps have an ego, you betch'a. If you don't
    you will not be successful in sales, any sales. Period. Selling
    anything is a game of numbers. You get lots of rejections, and often
    lose more than you win. Like baseball, a .300 hitter is a star. So
    you better have an ego.
    	My comments, and others, are geared at doing something. If you are
    paralyzed by events, then get out of the way. No one here is going to
    knock anybody for doing; but we sure are going to flame those who
    aren't. This is a time for getting tough, getting focused, and getting
    out with buyers closing business. Sales folks really do not have a
    luxury of doing anything else these days. We expect our Digital to
    support us wholeheartedly, and provide us with fast response. Otherwise
    us sales types are dead. And if we die, Digital is history for sure.
    	As the great Peter Drucker says, "Nothing in business happens
    without a sale first." And good salespeople do not apologize.
    
    		the Greyhawk
    

    I usually just read but I wanted to comment!  I originally came from
    the military, then Hughes Aircraft Co. for 5 years, then TRW Systems
    Integration for 8, then to Digital.  I've been here for 2 years and I
    still shake my head at the attitudes of the employees here.  The grass
    is always greener until you get there.  The only thing Digital has done
    wrong is to spoil its employees!  You have it better here then just
    about everywhere else.  Do your job as you agreed to and take you pay
    as they agreed.  Thousands out there would trade with you in a minute!!
    
    Businesses exists to make money for their stock holders (PERIOD!!)
    
    Mike

>    Businesses exists to make money for their stock holders (PERIOD!!)
    
And a fine job Digital's done of that, eh?

8^)

    RE: .45  by MANM01::PHILIPOCAMPO 
    
    >WHAT'S THE PROBLEM ? WE DONT EVEN HAVE BATHROOM TISSUES
    
    You think you got it bad.  We don't even have time to go!
    

>    Businesses exists to make money for their stock holders (PERIOD!!)
    
    Pick up almost any good book on pramatic business theory (vs
    economic theory) and you'll find that the above definitely
    does not figure #1 on the list of existential motivations.
    
    More importantly the bottom line metrics (i.e. guiding behaviour)
    are:
    
    	- Will what we do provide enough income to ensure continuity
    	  of the company?
    
    	- Will what we're doing provide good enough/different enough
    	  service or product to our customer?
    
    	- Will what we're doing be challenging/fun enough for us?
    
    
    Pick up any of the "Excellence" books by Tom Peters for example.
    You'll see that that the top businesses become top businesses 
    precisely because they're NOT focussing on "making money for the
    stockholders" but because they're focussing on offering the best
    that the market has to offer. That this means that you can charge
    top dollar is almost an afterthought in the minds of the people
    who are doing these things.
    
    Discounting human behaviourial goals (or simply discounting humans)
    in business practices is one of the best ways of ensuring mediocracy.
    
    re roelof

    
    re .61
    
    Hear hear!
    
    I have worked at worked at half a dozen companies before joining
    Digital over six years ago. I was amazed at how much Digital employees
    got away with, and still am, regarding benefits and the like.
                                                        
    Digital has indeed spoilt it's workers, and we know how loud spoilt
    brats can shriek when they don't get their way all the time.
    
    I always thought scholarships were for bright children but poor
    parents. As that was not Digital's scheme, I can only vote in favour of
    the removal of this benefit in these hard times.
    
    We all like to have a whinge, but you can't make a career out of it! or
    can you?
    
    Max.
    
    

    Digital benefits may have been better than elsewhere, but they were
    part of the contract of employment. Now they are being eroded, one by
    one. The problem is not the lack of the benefit, but the fact that our
    terms and conditions are being diminished. 
    
    When Ijoined DEC (as it then was) it was EXPLICITLY stated by more than
    one person that "DECdoesn't pay top dollar, because we don't want to
    drive the market rate up, but we do provide the best benefit package in
    the industry and the best job security". Job security has gone, the benfits 
    are going and we have a pay freeze - where does that leave us?

re. -1

>    When Ijoined DEC (as it then was) it was EXPLICITLY stated by more than
>    one person that "DECdoesn't pay top dollar, because we don't want to
>    drive the market rate up, but we do provide the best benefit package in
>    the industry and the best job security". Job security has gone, the benfits 
>    are going and we have a pay freeze - where does that leave us?

	It leaves "us" where we were before joining DEC.


Fred Deady

	re: "Don't complain, because it's worse elsewhere"

	I find this logic absurd in the extreme. It's *ALWAYS* worse
	somewhere else. Should we just take whatever happens with a smile on
	our faces, becasue we don't have to perform manual labor 12 hours
	per day for minimum wage? Heck, maybe we should be happy no matter
	what benefits are taken away or no matter how long the wage freeze
	remains in place. After all, we still have freedom of the press!

	I came to work for this company based on a particualr compensation
	package -- a package that has been steadily whittled away over the
	past few years while our senior management received bonuses and
	raises that well exceed my annual salary. All the while my own
	performance has been graded as excellent, thank you very much. And
	the product group in which I work has been pulling in 4-5 times our
	engineering budget in revenues. Tell me again why I'm supposed to be
	happy about this?

	Roy

    re: Digital benefits being better than elsewhere
    
    They always were better than a lot of places and worse than a lot of
    places -- for every company that's been cited as significantly worse, I
    could cite one that's significantly better.  I don't think that's
    relevant because the negative reaction to announcements like this
    doesn't stem  primarily from any actual loss of dollars on the part of
    the employees, anyway.  Most of the underlying emotions have to do with
    the symbolic meanings -- the implicit message that we aren't valued
    that comes across when rank and file employees are asked to bear the
    brunt of sacrifices that upper management does not seem to be making.  
    
    We see corporate VPs driving up to the front door in black stretch
    limos as we're on our way to lunch after a meeting where we discussed
    what was going to happen to the people who will be cut in the next
    round of SES cutbacks.  We see the always impeccably coiffed Bob Palmer
    getting a big bonus when the grunts who do the real work haven't seen
    raises in so many years we've forgotten what it means.  
    
    I don't think anybody I talk to minds the sacrifice.  What they mind is
    the *inequality* of the sacrifice.  They feel like they're being
    exploited to pay for the perks and inflated salaries and golden
    parachutes of the people who got us into this mess in the first place.  
    
    Most of us don't believe that the main job is making money for the
    stockholders and we don't believe that business starts with the sale. 
    We believe that a sale starts with a quality product or service that
    helps the customer solve a problem, and it continues through delivery
    and service, and we want to produce a quality product that is so easy
    to sell that it practically walks out the door, and we want to help the
    sales force sell when products aren't walking out the door.  When you
    do that, then everybody makes money.  
    
    Most of us think that a big chunk of middle and upper management is
    standing between us and anything we can do to make that happen again.  
    
    You don't build world-class products without a world-class work force. 
    You don't build a world-class work force by treating the people who
    actually do the work like interchangeable drones.  You build a world
    class work force by trusting your employees and giving them the power
    and the information to do the job right.  
    
    --bonnie

    Folks, you have to start looking out for number 1.  I have been doing
    this for the last 5 years and have had no problem with working for 
    Digital.  Digital makes *choices* and we all make *choices*.  I choose
    to work here because it benefits me, and Digital pays me because it 
    benefits the corporation.  It doesn't work the other way around, never
    has and never will, regardless of the company.  Make sure you have 
    marketable skills both professionally and technically and you will
    never have a problem with a company because you can always choose to 
    leave, key word is 'choose'.  If you don't have marketable skills,
    then you are dependent on the company for a job, and guess what kind
    of position that puts you in.  The cherry picking has already begun
    in Digital, make sure you are cherry to the job market, if not, start
    today on that journey.  BTW, Digital is still a better place to work
    than most FWIW.
    
    Brad.

    Nicely said .70...... and you won't ruffle the feathers like I did.....
    
    Once again- there are a lot of people out here looking for someone to
    hold there hand and baby them-- call your parents! This is a workplace
    and our playground is now a battlefield.......
    
    .68- If your performance is as excellent as you say, have the guts to take 
    your goods to the open market and find out what your worth... 
    you owe it to yourself, because Digital owes you nothing......
    
    Once again, I restate that this is a CAPITALISTIC WORLD-- there is no
    EQUALITY-- the VP's and CEO's have figured this out and whether
    ethically, righteously, or not have gotten to the top of the food
    chain-- find a way to get there too and your complaining about being
    stuck down below will surely stop.......
    
    just be a maverick.......

    
    
        Re  .47
    
        Just a small correction on the magnitude of the benfits under 
        discussion.  At least for the National Merit scholars, there 
        more like 25 kids (not 2 to 10).  I know because in one year 
        both of mine qualified (twins), probably a first ever.  Digital 
        contributed $2k per year per student.  So at least the National 
        Merit contribution amounted to more like  25 * $2k * 4 yrs., or 
        $200k.  Don't know about the Philips academy.  No value judgment, 
        just a better cost estimate.
    
        Sure helped with two going to college at the same time.  Could I 
        do without it now, under tough times?  Sure.
    
    
    
        Different item, a few back, about the only purpose of a company 
        being to make money for stockholders:  
    
        Fine, but you highly direct folks never seem to understand that 
        the best way to get there may not be the straight-ahead, through-
        the-wall approach.  It's been said a number of times, but one 
        more time -
    
            If you put the CUSTOMER FIRST, and take care of your 
            EMPLOYEES NEXT, maybe you don't even have to think about 
            the stockholders at all, because the company will be 
            successful and make that profit for the stockholders.
    
            In fact, looks like win-win-win (customer-employees-
            stockholders) to me, instead of our win-???-lose focus 
            with stockholders first, customers next and employees
            dead last.  And the stockholders don't seem so happy 
            either.
    
    
        Peter
    

    re: .72
    
    I suspect it varies a lot -- the year my daughter graduated, I think
    there were only four DEC National Merit Scholars, and 7 who attended
    the Phillips and St. Paul's programs at around $5K a shot.  At least
    that's how many names there are in the Digital Today article, which I
    saved.  
    
    I suppose in the technical sense we could have afforded to send our
    daughter to this specialized summer program, but with her college bills 
    looming directly ahead, I doubt very much that we would have tried to
    squeeze out the tuition and all that to let her attend.  On the cosmic
    scale of things, it's not very important.  
    
    --bonnie

    Milton Acadamy was around the 1K price when my son got a DEC
    Scholarship in the summer of '83.  Prices must have risen 
    since.  He, too, found out that he didn't want to study what
    he thought he wanted to study in college there.

    justme....jacqui

RE: .60  <the Greyhawk>

You don't know what a refreshing relief it is to read your most recent
comments.  Amen, brother.

As someone who toils in the field (pun intended) like yourself, I appreciate
the results oriented approach you state.  Sometimes we win, and sometimes we
lose, and in many cases it has nothing to do with skill, talent, hard work,
or commitment.  

My analogy is that of a prospector who is sent to work on a specific mine.
A good prospector will locate the gold and figure out how to get it out of
the mine at a profitable rate.  But what happens if the mine you are assigned
to has absolutely no gold?  The hardest working, most skilled, and best
prospector in the world can't find what isn't there.

So if the account you are assigned has a Vice President who tells his direct
reports "The answer is Sun Microsystems: are there any questions?", or if
the product that we have is dramatically overpriced and literally falls
apart when we try to take it out of the box, or if we sell a service and the
person who is to deliver the service is TFSO'd before they can deliver the
service, or if we sell a year-long service contract and the person who is
to deliver the service has never worked with the product that they are 
supposedly an expert on, (and I could go on but this is getting boring),
then sometimes you lose that particular deal.

So what do you do?  Just like the Greyhawk, you pick which products you sell,
you pick where you spend your time selling them, and sometimes you wait for
the Vice President to be fired.  But in all cases you keep trying: ignore 
the nay-sayers, avoid Digital people who constantly moan and complain about
how terrible it is, and go see more customers.  Customers like what we have,
consider it valuable and helpful to them, and spend a great deal of money
and time and aggravation to purchase it from us.

As one vulture said to the other: "Patience hell, I'm going to kill something".

RE: another benefit killed

Well, this particular benefit take-away (tuition reimbursement for dependents)
doesn't bother me that much right now because my kids are 9 and 6.  I am not 
too happy about the changes to the car plan, though.  

But in every case you have to ask yourself, is the total salary + benefits
I get from Digital sufficient renumeration for the work I do?  If so, stay
and quitcherbitchen.  If not, then look around for a company where the total
salary + benefits is sufficient, and go with them.  And if you can't find
a company where you are sufficiently compensated for your work, maybe you
should re-set your expectations...

Notice that this is not "love it or leave it".  We have seen examples of
changes which were modified based on feedback from the field (VTX SPD, 
VTX PRICE, the Digital Art Library, a benefit example I can't remember right
now, etc), so make your feelings known in a productive way to the people
who have the power to make the decision.  That is what I plan to do with the
car plan changes when I see Bill Horzempa next week.  

But whining in this notes file is literally worse than useless.  It is 
totally ineffective in bringing a reasoned and responsible message to the
decision-makers, and can hurt the morale of the people who read it here.

-- Ken Moreau

    its interesting to read all this rah rah let's go kick the
    competition's butt stuff. its also somewhat refreshing to think that
    maybe, just maybe, the new Digital may weed out the deadwood (don't
    hold your breath to long).
    
    however, no one has mentioned treating people with respect and dignity.
    seems that doesn't matter. only thing that matters is to "crush the
    other guy at all costs". pound the competition into submission. i don't
    disagree with that. i also believe that can be accomplished without
    trashing peoples self respect and dignity.
    
    and FWIW, i've done the "greyhawk" route. as well as others. and i've
    always said the meek shall get trampled by the aggressive, the over
    zealous, and the foolish. only question each has to answer is what you
    can live with - what's acceptable looking back at you in the mirror in
    the morning. and that's for each to decide.

I think it's great that Sales and other folk who deal directly with the
customer are getting a more gung-ho attitude.  But i think it's also more
likely to be true that they can exert a direct influence on improving
Digital's situation than can many other folks (like programmers, computer
operators, financial analysts, even probably engineering and manufacturing
people).  You can be gung-ho in one of those latter positions, but usually
all it buys you is more frustration, since by definition you're less of a
free agent in what you do (everything is done in "virtual teams" or by
committee or whatever, with the "client" usually another Digital employee).

We keep going through this same cycle in this notes conference: people see
something stupid or disrespectful being done by management, they use this
forum to state their complaints, a few people respond with the traditional
nay-saying, like "love it or leave it", "this is CAPITALISM" (BFHD, IMO),
or "we're just here to make the stockholders big bucks" (which to me is a
ridiculous case of mistaking effect for cause, and one you would never see
in a successful company that actually served customer needs).  Then you
get the insults ("whining like babies", "want the company to be your mother",
etc.), which fall into the ad hoc personal attack nonsense category.

People are always more likely to complain when something they had is taken
away than when they never had the thing to begin with.  It's just human
nature.  And a lot has been taken away in terms of Digital benefits since
i started (1979).  Since about 1986 our management has gone way off track
by overhiring, shooting for the wrong markets, allowing bureaucracy to add
tons of hidden costs to just about every revenue-generating activity, and
navel-gazing their way through countless disruptive reorganizations that
did nothing to address the real problems the company faced.  But we haven't
seen management leading by example and sharing the pain that the rest of
us face in terms of pay (at least in the case of Sales) and benefit cuts.

I don't see any problem in having people both talking positive and being
gung-ho here, and also airing their criticisms.  It's the ones who from
either side carp at the other and get very-self-righteous that bug me.  As
they say, just hit NEXT UNSEEN if you don't like a particluar topic or
individual posters.

I'm more upbeat about the company's prospects since this last reorg than i
have been for a long time (especially if they follow through with a couple
of more sell-offs of non-core groups, like the parts of DC that don't fit
in with the mission of the business units, and maybe some software groups
too).  It's obvious we're going to end up a much smaller company, but that
could be okay.  What's scary is that we may lose a lot of good performers
in the next six months, voluntarily, just because Digital has shown little
or no concern for the morale of line workers (the people who do the REAL
work), for a long time.  That's not okay.
								- paul

    
    	Let's face it folks - most of this thread has a distinctive "local"
    management flavor. If yours is good to decent, then life, however hard,
    is livable at the *new* Digital; if your immediate management sucks,
    you got a real problem. Unfortunately, there are no answers for the
    latter short of looking elsewhere seriously.
    	As for the SLT sharing some of the financial pain, I couldn't agree
    more. Personally, RP and Co. should all take a 20% pay cut until
    Digital has two years of profits back-to-back. They can make up the
    difference with stock options that do not get re-adjusted. Since they
    haven't, it says more about them that it does us. So what? We still
    live our lives, not theirs.
    	The key thing for me (and I believe my field counterparts) is this:
    Since we are all workerbees to begin with, let us stick together and
    work with each other to make our little niches happen. If you are in a
    support role, and one of us field types call with a question, or need,
    knock yourself out making it happen. Our commitment to you will be the
    same, if can move your product or service, we'll knock ourselves out
    making that sale. If we cannot sell it, we will give you our honest
    appraisal on why, and what the customer needs to make it a purchase.
    	What I would really like to see now is a series of conferences
    covering key products, services, and technologies where we can all
    participate to share, exchange, and execute our goals. Like one on
    PCs, one on workstations, one on UNIX-related software, one on
    networks, etc. You get the message. The H*** with the SLT at this
    point, let's go win for us.
    
    		the Greyhawk

    re:78
    
    	There are already notes files like you mentioned that have been in 
    existance for some time. If I have any sort of question, I can usually
    locate an appropriate notes file to find an answer. 
    
    	Not meaning to be sarcastic but, did I miss something or did you ;-)
    Assuming you (or anyone else) didn't already know this, there is a
    text file listing all notes conferences that can be found at 
    ANCHOR""::NET$LIBRARY:EASYNOTES.LIS.
    
    	There is also an on-line up to date notesfile about all notes files at
    TURRIS::EASYNET_CONFERENCES.
    
    	Ray

    
    re: .79
    
    A minor correction:
    
    The most recent copy of EASYNOTES.LIS is now always found at 
    HUMANE::SYS$PUBLIC:EASYNOTES.LIS
    
    -Joe
    

    
    FWIW: on the topic of management sharing the pain...
    
    Last year, the head of Digital Japan took, I believe, a 10%
    pay cut because of the poor financial results.  I think his reports
    took a 5% pay cut as well.
    
    This is standard practice in Japan.  Obviously not here in America,
    where the pain starts at the bottom up.
    
    Julian.

>>    Last year, the head of Digital Japan took, I believe, a 10%
>>    pay cut because of the poor financial results.  I think his reports
>>    took a 5% pay cut as well.
  Much less messy than Supuku.

    Mixed feelings is when your son gets accepted in the Advanced Studies
    Program at St. Paul's School - while the Digital scholarship is under
    suspension.
    
    ARRRGH.

just out of curiosity, does anyone know if there has been any discussion on this
topic of late, at least in terms of WHEN (if ever) some of these benefits may be
turned on again?

-mark