Conference 7.286::digital

    bye \john, we will miss you, i always liked your notes in here.

    if you change your mind, please come back.

    \bye
    \nasser
    ps. now it is 743 not 744 ,  is this the beginning of the end :(  ?
    \bye                                                              
    \nasser

    for what it's worth ... I AGREE WITH HIM!

    
    Re: .0 (Though I guess you won't see it)
    
    John:
    
    	Thanks for your efforts at SFA. Sounds like they've come a
    long way since I was there. What a party town/campus (that I can
    remember, anyways) that was !!
    
    	Please keep up the good work, inspite of the seeming
    insanity that appears to be driving this ship (or bass-boat
    on Lake Sam Rayburn, that I remember).
    
    Randy
    
     

>>>    The rumors and instant feed back are very addictive -- but the drug
>>>    takes me away from what I need to focus on right now.

I have pretty much agreed with John's notes in the past and this one (.0) is 
right on the money! I'm sick of the whining and speculating!  It is addicting 
and I've got to get detox'ed!

After I post this I'm deleting this conference!

Rick C

    okay, I'll try it.  "Fasting" from noting for a while might be good for
    the soul.
    
    Mark

    
    I'm convinced there's enough information in this conference
    for a doctoral dissertation.
    
    "Electronic Fora: Negative/Positive Effects on Employee Morale."
    
    :-)
    
    Glenn

    
    .-1
    
    I'm convinced I wouldn't need this notesfile if my management would
    communicate with me once in a while.
    
    :-)
    

    Here is a man with a lot of class!
    
                      I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M
    
                                      Doc. No:  018574
                                      Date:     06-May-1994 08:56am EDT
                                      From:     Enrico Pesatori @OGO
                                                PESATORI.ENRICO AT A1 at SALE*
                                      Dept:     V.P. WW Sales &  Marketing
                                      Tel No:   
    
    TO: See Below
     
    Subject: Q4 Focus and Direction
    
    
    I know that the events of the past two weeks have raised a number of 
    questions and concerns, both on your part and on the part of your 
    customers.  I am writing to reassure you about our direction as a 
    company and share some of our many successes.
    
    First, I want each of you to know that I am very excited about my new 
    responsibilities and the opportunity to work with you.  Over the next 
    14 days, I will conduct an in-depth review of the strategies and plans 
    for the Systems Business Unit and the PC Business Unit in preparation 
    for FY95.  We have already asked you to do a lot, and we will ask you 
    to do even more.
    
    Digital's sales force includes many talented professionals, and they 
    will continue to be a critical part of this company's growth strategy.  
    We have no intention of abandoning our direct sales force in favor of 
    an indirect channels strategy.  In fact, we are investing heavily in 
    the up-to-date systems, tools and educational programs that will help 
    us build a world class sales organization.
    
    As part of our ongoing strategy, however, we will put the right 
    products through the best distribution channels.  We will increase our 
    focus on partnerships and strategic alliances, and we will provide the 
    resources our customers need to make a Digital decision.
    
    We are all frustrated by the Q3 results and the temporary setbacks that 
    are inevitable in any turnaround.  But it is also important for you and 
    your customers to recognize that there are strong, positive indicators 
    that our long-term strategy is working.
    
       -  Alpha continues to gain market acceptance.
    
       -  Our UNIX platform is positioned to be a top competitor and our 
          networking products are regaining their industry leadership.
    
       -  Digital's server technology is setting new standards for price 
          and performance.
    
       -  We have more of the applications our customers want, and the list 
          of applications continues to grow.
    
       -  Our PC revenues have doubled in the last three years, and we're 
          now one of the Top 10 PC manufacturers in the world.
    
    We have to build momentum throughout the company, and our sales and 
    marketing team is a critical part of that effort.  As you look to the 
    fourth quarter, it is more important than ever that you focus on 
    Digital's strengths and on meeting our revenue goals.
    
    Good selling.
    
    
    
    

Putting a little reverse English on the title of this note, if people don't
stop playing silly games, I can see where we're *all* going to stop reading
the Digital notes file because there won't *be* any Digital notes file.

I have also 'abandoned' this conference several times over the past year,
for a week or two, but I've always come back.

I'm in Colorado, and this is by far the BEST source of information about
where the company is REALLY headed, what is wrong and what is right.

The 'negative waves' do get overwhelming from time to time, but that is
information too...  sometimes I watch the national news, and sometimes
I just change the channel...  but I don't ever remove the channel from
my receiver...  I'd like to urge you all to do the same... stop participating
for a while, stop following for a while, but don't stay away forever...

We all need to hear both sides of the story, and the sugar coated spin
control that we seem to get from above just doesn't make a healthy diet,
but then neither does just dwelling on the doom and gloom...

Please, for your own sanity take a vacation from DIGITAL, but please come
back when you're feeling better, we need all the enlightened points of
view that we can get...

	Joe

    I concur completely with the last note. It is very distressing to 
    see some of the negative reactions to happenings-corporate. It really
    is the best source of information about the company. Its also the place 
    with opinions about the news. I remember when we were having tfso's
    all over the place and to read about it was distressing to read, that
    doesn't mean it was wrong. Just distressing. I remember the fiasco of 
    getting rid of the remote sales group. It sounded like a stupid thing
    to do and maybe them talking about it in this conference helped stop
    a bad decision. 
    
    I've been tempted to dump this conference but its too valuable a 
    source of corporate information.
    
    Fred

    	Well, we're approaching the second interpretation of the topic
    	title.
    
    	2.36 is disappointing.  I'm not disappointed in the moderators
    	for doing what they did, but I'm disappointed that they had to.
    
    	One bad apple, and all that...

    lets be honest with ourselves for a moment. do the contents of this
    file represent a distorted view of this company or the people that work
    for it? no. i don't think so. if things are bad. they are bad. dwelling
    on it is bad. ignoring it is worse.
    
    

    RE -1
    AGREED

    Best conference around for figuring out in which direction
    the bullets are flying :-). I guess there's an awful lot
    of "incoming" at the moment though...

    	IF you believe in the tremendous potential for information technology;
    ie. development and application of things like the "Information 
    Superway" --- Then don't run from this notesfile! 
    
    	Perhaps as we learn to use information channels like this
    notesfile, as we develop conventions and etiquette for it all, and as
    we better understand the usage of and limitations of the technology;
    then we can all learn to get successfully into the 21st century.
    Then maybe we could not only learn to live in the next century  but 
    to THRIVE there. It may not be easy!!!, but it is all most certainly 
    necessary.
    
    	In a very real sense, we are pioneering here!
    
    

        >	In a very real sense, we are pioneering here!

    i could not agree more with you.

    there is also many other benefits to this note file that no one has
    mentioned before which is improving our writing and negotiation
    skills that can always be useful for business related work and
    at this occasion i'd like to say on a more personal level that i feel 
    that my writings and communications skills has improved in bounds and 
    leaps since i joined the 743 other DECeees about 2 years and started to 
    note here and engage in what sometimes can be lively discussions and 
    discourse and for that i thank every one for the opportunity to do so 
    and that is why i say dont give up on this note file becuase there is 
    allot of good stuff left in here.

    \bye
    \nasser

I agree that this notes conference can bring you down emotionally. However, as 
has been said already, it is a pretty good source of company-wide information.

Also, I deal with enough things in my job to depress me. What I read in here 
really doesn't lower my morale any. In fact, the phrase " misery loves company 
comes" to mind.

I'll continue to read, and write as I do on occasion. And if there is anything 
I can contribute that I think will help this company, you'll see my name in
here.

Actually, I hope all of you who have opted to leave will reconsider. 
I wish everyone in this company with access to a terminal could participate.

Regards,

Jim

    
    Three Cheers for the DIGITAL notes file. It is the "pulse" of the
    company. Misery does love company.
    
    Remember, Its only a job. We still are alive. It is not the end of the
    world.
    
    

	re: 3054.15 

>>    Best conference around for figuring out in which direction
>>    the bullets are flying :-). I guess there's an awful lot
>>    of "incoming" at the moment though...
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    re: .15 and .20
    
    Remember the Gulf War advice:
    
    - Friendly fire isn't.
    
    - Don't think you're John Wayne.  Even John Wayne wasn't John Wayne.
    
    - If the enemy's in range, so are you.

    
    Seems to me that this notesfile is kind of like TV.  Most
    of what is here is negative, but there is the occasional
    nugget of wisdom.  My inclination lately is to turn off
    the local news, for example (tired of the reports of the
    nightly body count in the city -- it depresses me).  On
    the other hand, the discovery channel is neat, most of the
    time.  
    
    So I don't write off TV altogether, I'm just more selective
    in what I watch. Here, I hit "next unseen" more often than
    I used to.  Over the years, this conference has been a valuable
    tool in helping me pay attention to what's going on in Digital,
    trends and so forth that have helped me make some intelligent
    career decisions.
                     
    Glenn

    
    Oh yeah, and the other thing about TV -- I like to make the
    occasional reference to Beavis and Butthead so my
    generation X colleagues don't think I'm a *total* baby-boomer
    dweeb. :-)
    
    Same thing here -- the occasional cultural reference to Digital
    in conversation is sometimes useful as well.
    
    Glenn

Re:             <<< Note 3054.22 by BOOKS::HAMILTON "Change xxxx." >>>
                 -< HUMANE::DIGITAL -- not a vast wasteland. >-

...it's only half-vast...

-stephen

    
    
    I heard this quote about TV but it could be applied to notes.
    
    "Notes is the perfect medium because it's neither rare nor well done!"
    
    
             -=-=-R~C~W-=-=-

    The author of .0 had also better not read the Wall Street Journal,
    Business Week, and the Boston Globe.  I believe that all of the
    specific bad news cited in .0 was reported in those media -- and
    except for the DCU events, I think the bad news got into this notes
    file due to people who entered information from those outside sources.
    
    The difference between this notes file and those outside sources is
    that we get *more* news about Digital, with less filtering.  Sure, we
    get the bad news.  We also get the other side of the negative stories
    that are being printed about us on the outside.  And we also get a lot
    of information that the outside world doesn't see -- in amongst the
    chaff that inevitably flies around when things get stirred up.
    
    The place where I have to agree with .0 is about the chances of someone
    at a high level seeing this stuff and doing something constructive
    about it.  If it's happened, I haven't seen it.  And although it may
    be happening and we just don't know, in the cases that I have been
    personally involved in, the response I got back was "there's no
    problem so nothing needs to be changed."  I find *that* far more
    depressing than rumors about massive layoffs.  But I'd rather know
    than not know, even though I too sometimes put my head down and
    ignore this file for a while in order not to be distracted.
    
    		Larry Seiler

I am convinced that top mgmt. in the company views this notesfile on
about the same level as a tabloid newspaper.

It would be absolutely incredible the amount of trust, enthusiasim and
excitement that would be generated (at no cost!) if Bob Palmer or other
upper escheleon managers would converse with employees via this
notesfile.

A cluster of Alpha machines might not be enough to handle the load on
VAXnotes.

Lee

    I am in complete agreement with the basenote author.
    
    I have had several weeks of increasingly *GOOD* interaction with
    customers, including two major proposals for UNIX business where we
    were virtually the ONLY VENDOR that could satisfy their requirements
    for system management and robust leading edge commercial features.  And
    just to make it perfectly clear, this is UNIX business, business that
    only months ago was the realm of nothing but depressing morass, one of
    the fastest growing markets in which Digital sells.
    
    We (Digital) are doing GOOD THINGS in a growing UNIX market.  We have
    customers that are buying or planning to buy our UNIX systems.  When we
    get a RFP that's not been wired for someone else, we do very well.  Our
    main problem right now is getting product out the door to meet demand!
    
    Don't believe everything you read in the papers!  I've been selling
    UNIX for Digital toe-to-toe with customers for six years, and we've
    never looked better!

>> It would be absolutely incredible the amount of trust, enthusiasim and
>> excitement that would be generated (at no cost!) if Bob Palmer or other
>> upper escheleon managers would converse with employees via this
>> notesfile.

 What would they converse about?

  Given the amount of information that we now receive from them 
  I would not expect much.

 In this case it seems to be: 

  "If you can't say something good, then don't say anything at all."

It's been like this for years now.....  8&(

>    The difference between this notes file and those outside sources is
>    that we get *more* news about Digital, with less filtering.  

	:) Did anybody read the whole article in Infoworld that
	   I've seen quoted a dozen times in the last month about
	   Digital (they called us "DEC") being voted "best in
	   client/server support"? I think BobP quoted it in the
	   DVN last week.

	   It reminds me of the blurbs in movie ads:

	As quoted:

	"...unbelievable ... the best that Hollywood has to offer!"

						Ima Reviewer, Rolling Stone

	In context:

	"It's unbelievable to me that this sort of tripe can find it's
	 way onto a movie screen. I'm going to start directing if this
	 is the best that Hollywood has to offer!"

						Ima Reviewer, Rolling Stone

	What the outside is saying is "perception" and when it comes to
	trying to persuade a potential customer, perception _is_ reality.

	Larry	8^#   (filter feeding ;)

RE: many, but .26 as a distillation of the thoughts

>    The author of .0 had also better not read the Wall Street Journal,
>    Business Week, and the Boston Globe.  I believe that all of the
>    specific bad news cited in .0 was reported in those media -- and
>    except for the DCU events, I think the bad news got into this notes
>    file due to people who entered information from those outside sources.
    
I believe that this paragraph misses the point of .0.  It is *not* the
bad news about Digital which is so depressing to the author (and many
other people, including myself).  It is the unrelieved bitching, whining,
complaining, and general doom-and-gloom atmosphere which pervades this
notesfile.  Elements of this include:

1) There is no good news anywhere: any good news will be subverted to be
   turned into bad news.  An example is the Rdb announcement:  the best
   performance and price/performance in the industry.  Did anyone stand
   up and cheer?  No, one of the first responses was that they had heard
   a rumor that we would be selling Rdb.

2) Constant re-iteration of the same old news, re-hashed and the same points
   made over and over [and over...] again, and all of it doom-and-gloom.

3) The attempts (and there are many) at reasonable dialogue, which are trying
   to really address some of the problems we have here, are overwhelmed and
   buried under the nay-sayers who criticize and deflate without trying to
   contribute.  Look what happened to Anker Bergsonne's (sp?) note on ways
   to make things better locally.

The problem that .0 had with this notes file is *not* the substantive bad
news about Digital, but about the fact that there is nothing *but* bad news
about Digital, at least according to the majority of the notes here.  (I
am specifically thinking about edp and his magic script to keep re-entering
the same note no matter how many times the moderators delete it, but there 
are many other examples).

I do not have rose-colored glasses on.  I see the bad things happening.  As
Bob Palmer said (paraphrasing), Digital has the best products and the worst 
marketing of any organization anywhere in the world.  But with Enrico Pesatori
taking over Sales and Marketing, I have real hope that it can be fixed.  For
once we have someone in charge of marketing who understands and values 
marketing, and who has the track record to enforce his (or his staff's) ideas.

I am keeping this notes file as one I read every day.  I like the news, I
value the interaction with some of the noters.  But the constant re-iteration
of "Digital is doomed, nothing can save us, the SLT is clue-less, all managers
are scum" can be very depressing, which is IMHO the point of .0.

-- Ken Moreau

    Re: .31
   >An example is the Rdb announcement:  the best
   >performance and price/performance in the industry.  Did anyone stand
                                                            ~~~~~~
   >up and cheer?  No, one of the first responses was that they had heard
                   ~~
   >a rumor that we would be selling Rdb.
    
    I agree with the point of your note but not your "all-or-nothing"
    logic.  (I have the same habit that I've been working on eliminating
    for years.)  Most of the original replies WERE congratulatory on Rdb's
    performance.
    
    I'm sorry but most issues in this company and the world are not
    "black-and-white" but shades-of-gray.  Who knows the full story?  About
    everything said here has most likely been altered by the grapevine from
    the original source.  These "shades-of-gray" are probably not as black
    as most noters and the press love to portray.
    
    Pete

RE: .-1
    
Sorry for the excessive cynicism.  See what writing in this notes file will
do to you? :-)

You are right, and many of the original replies to the Rdb announcement were
(IMHO properly) congratulatory.  But all too soon the nay-sayers and cynics
overwhelmed the good feelings.

>    I'm sorry but most issues in this company and the world are not
>    "black-and-white" but shades-of-gray.  Who knows the full story?  About
>    everything said here has most likely been altered by the grapevine from
>    the original source.  These "shades-of-gray" are probably not as black
>    as most noters and the press love to portray.
    
But your last sentence IMHO proves my point.  It is the fact that too many 
noters portray *everything* as unrelieved despair.  

As an example, read 3063.0.  Someone broadcasts a rumor that this company has 
declared bankruptcy.  No facts are given, no source is identified, and no
confirmation or denial by any authoritative person is demonstrated, but how
many people read that note and had their stress level peak for a minute?  And
last week we had the one where the base note said Palmer had resigned.  Again,
no facts, no visible attempt at confirmation or denial, just hysterical rumors 
spread internationally at electronic speeds.

People, come on!  Remember that literally thousands of people hear what you
write!  Before you write that the FAB complex in MA has fallen into the
world's largest sinkhole and Digital cannot make any more AXP chips for 18
months, before you write that (mumble) has purchased Digital and has decided
to eliminate (your_favorite_OS_here), before you write *ANYTHING* which 
would cause the loyal employees of this company more pain than they are in
now, please stop and think.  Confirm what you are writing!  A simple phone
call to Employee Relations or Corporate Finance or even Bob Palmer's office
would go a long way toward squashing the worst rumors.  Or at least wait 24 
hours to see if the information is really true!  This is not AP or UPI;
there is no reward for breaking a story first!!!

I am still planning to stick with this notes file, but 3063 and others are 
causing me to question whether my stress level can stand it.

-- Ken Moreau

re Note 3054.33 by ODIXIE::MOREAU:

> before you write *ANYTHING* which 
> would cause the loyal employees of this company more pain than they are in
> now, please stop and think.  

        Perhaps rumor notes such as those to which you refer are
        Digital's equivalent to the tabloid newspapers.  Perhaps they
        are exciting if fanciful stories that enliven people's
        otherwise deadly dull days -- rather than cause pain.

        One of the thing that has caused the most pain to me over the
        past years of loss is the lack of news that makes a
        difference.  Oh, there's plenty of news. VPs are appointed,
        VPs go.  Organizations are re-organized.  Slogans and
        programs are promoted with far more vigor than our products. 
        We announce the world's fastest frammitz.  The only dramatic
        changes are in the lives of those who are let go.

        Perhaps people are thinking that if Digital itself is
        incapable of change that really makes a difference then
        perhaps some major external force like a buyout or bankruptcy
        or new leadership would make a difference.

        I am not advocating this point of view, but perhaps it's a
        search for signs of hope rather than despair.

        Bob

        Re:   <<< Note 3054.33 by ODIXIE::MOREAU "Ken Moreau;Sales Support;South FL" >>>

        Ken,
        
        It really  is  heartening  to see that you and several others are
        trying to interject some reason  into  the  debate going on here.
        From me, and I'm sure a lot of others, thank you!
        
        I have been quiet for a while because I have been struggling with
        how to take the next step and  engage  myself, you and others who
        believe that constructive support of the company is  the only way
        we can save ourselves.
        
        My thinking is currently that we can only move  forward by having
        someone offer  to facilitate the employee/management dialogue and
        have it accepted  by  both parties.  It is not necessary that all
        employees and all managers accept the  offer.   The offer must be
        made by persons who are trusted by  both parties.  Secondly, I am
        convinced there must be structure for the dialog  - this is where
        I'm not ready.
        
        The conclusion I have reached is that I personally am a candidate
        for the trusted emmisary role, which leads me to make an offer:
        
                I will lead, facilite or participate a process  or  forum
                for  constructive  dialogue  between a group of employees
                and some  members  of  senior management on the following
                conditions:
        
                A) The employee group must individually and as a group be
                        committed  to  constructive,  non-confrontational
                        dialogue.  I cannot  participate  in  emotionally
                        driven  confrontational  work and will  quit  the
                        moment that happens.
        
                B)  Senior management must  agree  to  working  with  the
                        employee group.  Without a management  commitment
                        there is no point in moving ahead.
        
                C) The majority of the effort wil necessarily  have to be
                        done  outside  working hours.  I am  prepared  to
                        give an evening a week of my time.
        
        Anker

    
    re: .31 and .33
    
    Ken, you make some excellent points, but I think something
    is missing from your analysis.  We need to ask ourselves
    (as human beings), *why* people are so relentlessly negative.
    
    The exposure to the environment that has been Digital since
    1990 or so is beginning to wear on people. I think that's
    natural. This place has been the corporate equivalent of
    a war zone (complete with the sense of loss of control over
    one's life and the internalization of the fact that one's
    job, and hence the middle class lifestyle that many have
    attained, could be gone tomorrow through some totally random
    event.) 
    
    It is difficult in the extreme to get the traumatized survivors
    of such events to think in more positive ways -- not impossible,
    just very difficult.
    
    We're all human, and we are reacting in a human fashion to these
    events.
    
    My recommendation to folks considering deleting HUMANE::DIGITAL
    from their notebooks is to think again.  The people who read
    and write here desperately need the interaction with other
    people under the same stress. *Most* of the people here are
    not just cynical; they're hurting badly and they need support.
    
    It's therapeutic to vent sometimes -- as Hemingway said (and
    as I've quoted here before): "If he wrote it, he could get
    rid of it; he had gotten rid of many things by writing them."
    
    Glenn
                              

re: .35

That sounds good, Anker, but i think the first issue is how to facilitate the
dialogue among employees, so we know what it is we're trying to accomplish.

Maybe the first step would be to set up a Notes conference just devoted to
that (which i assume you might have to run by Personnel, if you want to
facilitate and moderate that).  Then make sure the existence of that notesfile
can be advertised in appropriate EINFs.  I'm afraid that might be the only
fair way to start off, since having meetings after work or whatever would
give the discussion and unnecessarily geographically localized focus.

If we had an Employee Initiative notesfile, then people could sign up, state
how they would like to be contacted, and we could set up some norms for
discussion (like voting) and hopefully set an agenda (for instance, some
topics that i can see leaping out right here are: Communication Among Employees
and 6.54, Cost Reductions, Barriers to Effective Work, Consistency and Fairness
in Employee Relations, Revenue Opportunities, RENEW/Morale Issues, etc.).

								- paul

        Re:         <<< Note 3054.37 by ARCANA::CONNELLY "foggy, rather groggy" >>>

        Paul,
        
        I agree  with  your  suggestion that we need to figure out how we
        dialogue among ourselves.
        
        My preference is for direct dialogue.  In a real conversation the
        dialogue switches dozens of  times  in  a very short time period.
        In notes files and by  mail  the  dialogue  is  much slower.  The
        disadvantage  with  direct  conversation  is  that  it   requires
        physical  presence.    Personally  I  work  best  either    in  a
        conversation,  or  by thinking for a long time and  then  writing
        down my thoughts. Maybe the answer is a combination of both.
        
        Lets hear some other thoughts!
        
        Thanks/Anker

RE: .34 <Digital's equivalent to the tabloid newspapers>

I appreciate your point, but I do not consider a steady diet of "Midnight
Star" or "Weekly World News" or "National Enquirer" to lead to a healthy
or balanced world-view.  I have nothing against those magazines as such,
and often flip through them at the cash register to see what completely
idiotic/distorted/fabricated story they are running, but I am frightened
by the people who take them seriously.  


RE: .35 <Anker Berg-Sonne>

You are one of the bright spots in Digital to me.  (And I apologize for
mis-spelling your name in an earlier note).

>                B)  Senior management must  agree  to  working  with  the
>                        employee group.  Without a management  commitment
>                        there is no point in moving ahead.
        
I think the last sentence is dead on-target.  But further, you need a large
fraction of *all* employees to commit to this process, otherwise "there is 
no point in moving ahead".  Let us not (as edp is trying to do) create an
us-vs-them atmosphere here.  We all work for the same company, and our 
paychecks do not say "manager" or "worker", they say (your countries variant
of) Digital Equipment Corporation.  Management, even senior management, have 
jobs to do the same as the lowliest line grunt like me.


RE: .36 <*why* people are so relentlessly negative>
    
I am in Sales Support.  One of the things that I learned when I moved from
Engineering in ZKO out to the field is that the method of presentation is
often *more* important than the information being presented.  This was a
startling thing for an engineer to learn!

In the last few weeks I have decided that the *way* I present information is
just as important as the information itself.  Therefore, whenever I talk to
people about Digital, I always go out of my way to be a cheer-leader.  Instead
of baldly presenting the SPECmark rating of the Sable server, I talk about
how it could become the next microVAX II, selling hundreds of thousands or
millions of units.  Instead of saying that DEC OSF/1 V2.0 now has these
features, I talk about how Gartner now calls it one of the mainstream UNIX
products in the industry (rating it superior in 13 of 18 categories) running 
on the fastest box available, and how we can compete *AND WIN* UNIX business.
Instead of saying the OpenVMS is for our installed base, I talk about how I
sold $2.8M of OpenVMS AXP into an overwhelmingly Sun and IBM installed base.
Instead of talking about how the PC business is a commodity and how Digital
does not have a differentiator, I talk about how I sold $1.8M of Digital PCs
last year, and how we are now #6 in the market (just past Dell).

All I am saying is for you to notice the effect of not just your message, but
also the presentation style.  Because whatever attitude you consciously
project is what will rub off on your colleagues and customers.  If you project
doom, despair and agony on me, then you bring people down.  If you project
determination and give reasons for hope, some people will dismiss you as a
Pollyanna who can't see reality (there is a lot of that here).  But some
people will pick up on that positive energy and pass it on.

You can spread despair or determination.  I made my choice.

-- Ken Moreau

    Attempting to get a useful management to employee dialog going on a
    large scale is fraught with pitfalls once it takes on sufficient
    dimensions to have significant effect.
    
    Several of the ideas in the previous notes sound very similar to the
    principles guiding the work of European works councils. Therefore I
    encourage anyone who is seriously contemplating going ahead with any
    formalised type of management / employee cooperation in the sense of
    representing a group of employees in a dialog with management should
    get in touch with the Digital Equipment Corporation Works Council board
    whose names follow:

	Derek Lee @VBO, Valbonne, France, Chairperson
	Livia Papi @TNO, Turin, Italy, Vice-Chairperson
	Leo Scheidl @AUI, Vienna, Austria, Vice-Chairperson
	Wolfgang M�ller @UFC, Munich, Germany, Secretary
    
    I have not discussed the topic with these people myself and can not
    guarantee that they would help, but they may be able to help avoid
    re-inventing the wheel in this area.
    
    Mike

Hi,

I've just added this conference to my collection.  We all need to bitch and
whine and vent-- it is a healthy to relieve this stress.  Better to share the
``misery'' with the ``company'' (no puns inthended ;-)), than with loved ones at
home.  We've gotta stick together and help solve the problems together.  By
whining, bitchin' and venting, we collectively identify the symptoms and
hopefully get to the root cause of the problems.

Ron

    Welcome!  But beware -- if  you post a rumor that Digital has gone into
    Chapter 11 and Digital France has gone out of business, you are likely
    to get a lot of bizarre and non-serious responses.  And that's as it
    should be.  
    
    Personally, I think there's value in someone posting a baseless rumor
    like that and having it get sqashed, instead of just talking about
    it with people who don't know.  I think that's an important purpose
    that is served by this conference.  Of course, the READERS have to
    understand not to believe unsubstantiated rumors.  
    
    And then there have been the rumors that turned out to really be true...
    But I think that speculation and expressions of concern, if they 
    flush out FACTS, are valuable.
    
    		Larry

    
>    And then there have been the rumors that turned out to really be true...
>    But I think that speculation and expressions of concern, if they 
>    flush out FACTS, are valuable.
    
    ...and that's a fact about rumours and...hang on a minute...or
    is just rumoured to be a fact? :-)

    What a joke!!!!
    
    The author of the baseNOTE needs to get a grip!  
    I picture him as the Al Franken character on SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE
    who talks to his mirror.  I think his name is Stewart Smalley.
    "Your smart enough.  Your good enough.  The company you work
     for is in great shape......".  
    
    This company has serious problems with no easy solutions.
    Insulating your little world from this reality would only
    be setting yourself up for a needless and uncomfortable
    surprise.  
    
    I hope this guy is never TSFO'd if he cries reading NOTES.  
                                                              

>    The author of the baseNOTE needs to get a grip!  
    
    And YOU need to be a tad more understanding during these difficult
    times!  Lotta folk upset right now, one way or the other, and jumpin'
    on a shipmate floatin' in the same boat for worryin' about the risin'
    water ain't gonna help much, now is it?
    
    The guy you just landed on with both feet is another one that's spent
    many years doing his best, bailing water, helping where help was
    needed, doing the right thing, and hoping/working for a better
    tomorrow.  Now lay off and take your personal frustrations out on
    someone/something else.  You STILL wanna jump on someone, y'all try me
    on for size, not somebody who shared their personal feelings of
    frustration during these trying times.
    
    Or, maybe you'd like to reword your response in a tad more literary
    and acceptable manner, such as:
    
        "Although I understand you're disappointed, I don't think it's
         realistic to expect...".
    
    						   Tex

RE: .44

	You obviously have never worked with John. (author of .0)
	You need a clue. To some people, this place is more than
	just a job. (It used to be that way for me)

						mike

    re .44  I see your still running under the school of thought that its
    unmanly to cry. That certainly is the crock thats still taught to
    American boys and men.  Look at the death rates in males due to stress
    induced illnesses.  It certainly could be career suicide to cry in
    front of ones' peers at work, but, at home its allot safer. 
    
    I applaud the basenoter for admitting in public that he cried. 
    
    And, yes, crying about many of the things that are happening in digital
    IS APPROPRIATE.
    
    Jeff

RE: .44 <The author of the baseNOTE needs to get a grip!>

Given that (by definition of the base note) John is not here to read this
and defend himself, and given that I know John fairly well and know what
kind of person he is and the kind of job he does for Digital, I feel that
I must respond to this.

>    This company has serious problems with no easy solutions.

John agrees with this 100%

>    Insulating your little world from this reality would only
>    be setting yourself up for a needless and uncomfortable
>    surprise.  

The one phrase that could *not* be used to describe John Wisniewski is
"insulated from reality".  John is more knowledgeable about more things
than almost anyone else in this company, and I specifically include myself.
He puts in more hours, more dedication, more work, and more commitment to
his job than almost anyone else I know, in or out of Digital.  His work
in the OpenVMS Partners program, his proselytizing of Digital on the
Internet, his work with the DECUS LUG, and the development of tools and
presentations that help out his fellow support people is nothing short of
astounding.  And all of the above is done on his own time, while still
doing superbly at his "real" job.  (Notice the hours he listed in the base
note.  I know for a fact that John considers this a normal day).  At the 
same time he keeps up on most of the major industry news, reading an 
astonishing number of journals per week, while still tracking multiple 
newsgroups on the Internet.  

And finally, John acts as a cheer-leader when people are down.  In multiple
cases in private notes files I have seen John find the silver lining in 
some really dark clouds, to keep people focused and "up" for their jobs.
    
>    I hope this guy is never TSFO'd if he cries reading NOTES.  
                                                              
He cries because he cares.

If John is ever TSFO'd, then I will be the one crying: for Digital.  Because
John will walk out with this head held high, knowing he did a superb job for
this company.  He will walk right into one of the **many** companies who have
offered him jobs, for lots more money than he is getting here.  And he will
do a superb job for the company that is lucky enough to grab him.

I tell you this:  I would rather work with 100 John Wisniewski's with their
"can-do" attitude, who know how to get their jobs done (including knowing
which notes files contribute to success and which detract from it), than
with someone who writes notes like .44, whose intention IMHO is to criticize,
de-moralize, and generally dispirit anyone who reads their diatribe.

-- Ken Moreau

mega-dittos on .48

Chuck
OpenVMS Partner

    RE:.45 "You still want to jump on someone, y'all try me on for
            size.
    
            My friend you appear to be a noble clown.  Noble in your 
            defense of John, clownish in your silly offer.
    
    RE:.46 "To some people, this place is more than just a job."
    
            In what ways?
    
    RE:.47 Applaud me too. I cry.  I cry thinking about how quickly my
           small children are growing.  I cry when I think about all my
           parents have sacrificed to make my life better.  I will never
           shed a tear for Digital.  I am a badge number.  Headcount.
           I work hard to make this company successful and propsperous.
           Why?  Because it will benefit me and enhance my ability to
           provide for my family.  Period.  Anyone who claims to work
           for any reason other than this should decline their paycheck
           for the "goood of Digital".
    
    RE:.48 "He (John if TSFO'd) will walk right into one of the *many*
            companies who have offered him jobs, for lots more money than
            he is getting here."
    
            If John were TSFO'd and he is honest, he would probably
            have to tell his perspective employer that he is not
            working.  In doing this John would lose a tremendous
            amount of leverage in negotiating for "lots more money".
            You make it seem if money does not mean much to John.
            Is he independently wealthy.  If not, and money means so
            little to him, nodoubt he could find a far more worthwhile
            charitable cause than Digital.
    
    I meant no harm to John.  I was commenting on the deep emotions he
    has for this company.  I see it everywhere.  I am unconvinced that
    it will help Digital "get better".  We need cool heads, a sound
    business strategy and well-executed plans.  Emotionalism will not
    help bring this about.  
    
    

    
>            My friend you appear to be a noble clown.  Noble in your 
>            defense of John, clownish in your silly offer.
    
    And you appear to be nothing a little Preparation H wouldn't reduce to
    size.  As the past several notes have shown, in John's support, the
    initial "get a grip" noter appears to be in the minority...but has at
    least one other arse grapes to hang with.
    
    We don't use "my friend" down here as lightly.  I pity your kids.
    
    							Tex

RE: .50 -< Bowed, but not broken. >-

Before I comment on .50, I would like to say that, while I agree with the
intent and spirit of Tex's comments in .51, I thought they were put just a 
little harshly.  As someone said somewhere, lighten up, Tex.  Opinions are
like noses: everybody has one...

>    RE:.46 "To some people, this place is more than just a job."
>            In what ways?

"To *some* people, this place is more than just a job" (emphasis mine).
The author of .46 did not say "to everyone", nor did they say that it is
a requirement that this place is more than just a job, nor did they say
that you are somehow less of a person if this place is *just* a job.

To me (and possibly to others, though I won't pretend to speak for them),
this is more than a job, in the following ways:

1) Self-fulfillment.  I moved from Software Engineering to Sales Support
   about 4 years ago.  I can't tell you what a thrill it was to walk around
   a customer site and see products that *I had written* being used by real
   people to do their jobs.  Wow, what I did was real, it was important,
   and it gave me a real charge just seeing it.  Even now I get the same 
   kick out of seeing a proposal I worked on lead to a sale, or a design
   I did get implemented by a customer.  This is a real "high", and I hope
   I never tire of it.

2) Being part of a winning team.  I am fortunate enough to be part of an
   excellent sales team in an excellent District.  And my peers and managers
   have let me know once or twice that I may consider myself to be one of
   the significantly contributing members of the team (raises, letters of
   commendation, that kind of thing).  Being a contributing member of a
   successful team is also a real "high" for me.

3) Learning a great deal on a wide variety of subjects.  Hey, where else 
   can I be expected to know the details of OpenVMS, DEC OSF/1, Windows-NT,
   RSX-11M, VAX micro-code, AXP firmware levels, licensing policies, 
   compiler code generation, 4th generation language tools, Motif programming,
   DECnet, TCP/IP, MIB level II structures, X-windows terminals, CONFIG.SYS,
   disk drive speeds, Advantage Upgrade programs, and Digital's financial
   picture, all on the same day, all at a moments notice?  This is **FUN**!!!
    
I also see some of these joys in other areas of my life.  My wife and children
are a constant source of happiness and fulfillment to me.  I just put my 8
year old daughter to bed.  She and my 5 year old son make me rich beyond
compare, no matter what happens at work.

But the point is (you knew I would get to the point eventually :-)), that I
find these joys in *all* areas of my life, as does the author of .46, as 
does John Winsniewski.  I am fortunate enough to get pleasure out of my
work life and my non-work life.  And that is the point of .46.


>							 I will never
>           shed a tear for Digital.  I am a badge number.  Headcount.

To me, that attitude is sad.  I am not criticizing or putting you down, but
I find that impersonal attitude depressing.  If I felt that way, I would
immediately leave and find another place to work where I did not have to
feel that way.

>           I work hard to make this company successful and propsperous.
>           Why?  Because it will benefit me and enhance my ability to
>           provide for my family.  Period.  Anyone who claims to work
>           for any reason other than this should decline their paycheck
>           for the "goood of Digital".

I don't see how that follows (see below).
    
>    RE:.48 "He (John if TSFO'd) will walk right into one of the *many*
>            companies who have offered him jobs, for lots more money than
>            he is getting here."
>    
>            If John were TSFO'd and he is honest, he would probably
>            have to tell his perspective employer that he is not
>            working.  In doing this John would lose a tremendous
>            amount of leverage in negotiating for "lots more money".
>            You make it seem if money does not mean much to John.
>            Is he independently wealthy.  If not, and money means so
>            little to him, nodoubt he could find a far more worthwhile
>            charitable cause than Digital.

John (and I, and I believe many others) get *multiple* benefits out of
working for Digital.  Three of them are listed above.  Another one is a
paycheck.  Just because we get benefits from working for Digital beyond
a paycheck is no reason to give up the paycheck.  That is like saying
that since Digital gives me medical insurance, it should not give me
dental insurance because I have already gotten significant benefit from
working here.  I don't see the logic of your statement at all.

Money means quite a bit to John and I.  But we both look at the total
benefits we get in working for a company.  Salary is important, other
benefits are important, and the emotional satisfaction we get from our
job is important.  Each person ranks these differently.  But I think it
is totally unreasonable to say that since we get some emotional satisfaction
out of working at a job, that we should forgo any other benefits (salary,
medical/dental insurance, etc) that are offered.
    
>					   We need cool heads, a sound
>    business strategy and well-executed plans.  Emotionalism will not
>    help bring this about.  
    
I completely agree with the first sentence, but see the second sentence
as totally extraneous.  Emotionalism will neither help nor hurt, except
as a depressed, demoralized, and in general hope-less person will not be
able to create or carry out a "sound business strategy and well-executed
plans".  Therefore, John eliminated a source of depression, demoralization
and depletor of hope from his life: replies like yours...

-- Ken Moreau

    
    John in .0 does indeed confess a passion for this company. Though I only
    know him through the network, I've long suspected he is one of the "good
    guys", and I thank .48 for the confirmation.
    
    To .44, I suggest that the same passion that makes one work so hard to
    do the right thing for this company, might make one weep at the things
    the company does back. People who do not feel similar passions might
    just be "cool headed" -- or they might not be engaged sufficiently to
    help turn this company around.
    

    
    
    Well is the peeing contest over, or should we all get our umbrellas out?
    
    DMITCHELL-How long have you been with the company?  Many folks remember
    when Digital was DEC and things were done above and beyond the call of
    duty and (as hokey as it sounds) there was a sense of belonging to the 
    DEC family.  It was part of our charm as a corporation.  We were large
    and we were good, hence the customers would put up with our flaws.  Now 
    we are trying to play big corporation with many of the same flaws (most
    of them having to do with the way we conduct business).  It's not being 
    tolerated anymore because the charm is gone.
    
    
    Mike
    

    
    
    This all seems a great shame having to say goodbye to what DEC
    (Digital) once was, but sadly it is a fact of life. 
    
    When I joined the company I was given a glossy titled Digital Corporate
    Ethics, after reading it I was very excited and suprised to find that 
    most people in the company adhered to this philosophy. I also was a
    proud to be a DECie, and did the usual after hours work without
    claiming for the overtime, I did it because I enjoyed it, and felt good
    that I was making a usefull contribution.
    
    Today, I find that many of those ethics have been abandoned, and the
    prime object of the company is to make a profit at all cost. I guess
    this was always the goal, but 5-10 years ago it was always well
    cloaked. The focus then was on employee development and customer
    satisfaction, and the two went well hand in hand, becuase our customers
    enjoyed doing business with our happy employees. 
    
    	
    Where I can feel some empathy towards the author of .0 I still feel
    that what is gone is HISTORY and it is the work we do today and plan for
    in the future that counts, people who think about how good the past
    was, will never develop as well as those who look to the future,
    because of the longing they have to go back to the good old days.
    
    Digital will never be the same, and my guess is that it will be as good
    in 5 years time as it was 10 years ago, just a different generation.
    
    Ian
                                           

    Re .55
    
    Well, I generally agree with you, with ONE exception. When I joined
    this company ('83) I was also very pleased that (in addition to all the
    other wonderful things about DEC) that Ken *always* made plain our goal
    was to return as handsome a profit as possible to our shareholders.
    Sure, we did all those other things, but our profit motive was NEVER
    "cloaked".
    
    Steve

    
    
    Re .56 .... I checked you were right! Athough these were the only two
    	paragraphs in a 25 page A4 book.
    
    
    Extract taken from "European Mission & Objectives Corporate Philosophy
    & Ethics"
    
    	"As a Public Corporation, we depend on our stockholders and
    	bondholders to help us finance growth. They measure our success
    	by our profits and our management of assets".
    
    	"Our employees are our greatest asset and we count on them to help
    	us reach our goals by using positive business ethics, and
    	contributing as individuals and as members of a team to Digital"
    
    							Ken Olsen 1984
    
    	Digital Philosophy
    
    	PROFIT
    
    	"We are a public Corporation. Stockholders invest in our
    	Corporation for profit. Success is measured by profit. With success
    	comes the opportunity to grow, the ability to hire good people, and
    	the satisfaction that comes with meeting your goals. We feel that
    	profit is in no way inconsistant with social goals".
                                       

    D. Mitchell's unfeeling Corporate Darwinism note (regarding someone he
    doesn't even know) kept me thinking all evening.  As a previous noter
    said, my response was harsh.  No apologies, that's why I made .44 the
    'pick on me' offer, instead of on someone who's not reading this. 
    It really bothered me to see another such assinine entry, but after
    going over it again and again, I got a real positive out of it!
    
    I'd like to say "Thanks" to John and the rest of you like him for doing
    what the Mitchell's of this world deride.  Thanks to the guys at the
    Springs that have pulled my butt out of some rather hot fires over the
    years, even before my tenure here.  Doing their job would have meant
    finding the answer and closing the open issue.  They've gone beyond
    that in many cases, faxing procedures, giving me home phone numbers,
    calling back when they found something else I might hit, etc.
    
    Thanks to my co-workers, who've spent late nights working out problems,
    been there when I'm out at a client site and stuck, taken up the slack
    when I've been ill or unsure, made sure that Digital looked good to the
    customer at whatever cost to them, even if it wasn't 'their job'.
    
    Thanks to Mike and Diana, whom I've worked with on so many projects. 
    They'll never know how much I've appreciated the opportunities and what
    I've learned.
    
    Thanks to our office administrator, who has somehow got out proposals
    and kept us in pencils with her late, late nights...beyond the call.
    Figure out the hourly pay, she'd probably do better at McDonald's, but
    she's still here...
    
    Thanks to all those people out there who I've never met, never will,
    but have taken the time to help me out because I work for Digital. 
    Answering my request for a problem resolution is probably not
    the preferred night-time activity of a Swedish software spec definitely
    not in my cost-center, but...
    
    Thanks to those of you who have wished those leaving luck, provided
    contacts, references, etc.  It's been extremely harsh on some people
    who gave their all only to be given the door.  Who knows when your turn
    is coming and that word of encouragement, appreciation, and support
    will really make a difference?  
    
    Thanks to the comedians out there, too, who've kept us laughing in the
    face of never-ending reorgs and layoffs.  This conference would be
    pretty grim nowadays without 'em.
    
    Thanks to all those people who DO look at this company and their
    co-workers as more than "a paycheck" and "headcount".  It was they
    who made it what it was, and it will be they who restore it once
    again.  Look at the number of positive entries in this line, compared
    to the two negatives!  Evidently the majority of us DO give a monkey's,
    eh?
    
    I think this was the positive side that John was looking for
    and that's all so easy to overlook given the current times (and those
    immediately ahead).  Once again, his additional contribution has made a
    difference somewhere.
    
    As for me, it's back to making light of rumours and a never-ending
    quest for strict adherence to DEC std 131313 (and the new ISO 90001).
    
    						Tex

    ...and a big thanks to the guys in Field Service who make the lights
    flash for this software spec!  I saw one in Minneapolis bring his own
    workstation in for the client to make the project a success.  Inspired
    me.
    
    						Tex

    re .52
    
    The guys back in Software Engineering remember you, Ken--when
    I was doing some work on VAX DEBUG, I was told about the stuff
    you'd done in tones of awe ("Pure ---ing Magic").
    
    		-John Bishop

    RE:.51  Tex, my friend, your venomous replies to my notes are
            good theater.  I suspect that under the tough guy persona
            your probably a pretty good guy.  I will ignore your
            goofy crack about pitying my kids and chalk it up to
            a lapse in your better judgement.
    
            ....Oh yeah.  About my being a stuffed shirt.  Far from
            it.  One of four boys from a working class family.  
            Worked my way through college.  Married before I 
            graduated.  Had my first child 19 months later.  
            Needed money and benefits, so I joined a labor union.
            Worked in road construction and in the company stone
            quarry.  Everyday I worked with drug addicts, drunks,
            and murderers(Not exceptional in a big city union).
            I suffered several serious injuries, yet never missed
            a day.(If I did not work, I was not paid.)  I have
            scars to remind me just how dangerous it is to work
            with 400 degree asphalt.  Every year I could look foward
            to being laid-off at Christmas.  
     
            I wouldn't change a thing about this experience prior
            to my coming to Digital.  Live and learn.
    
            Tex, I suspect that you are as "mean-spirited" as I
            am a "stuffed shirt".  Not much.
    
    RE:.54  I have been with DEC, now Digital, 5.5 years.  I have
            to take the word of folks who tell me how great things 
            used to be here.  I think those "golden years" are
            gone forever.  It is the natural evolution of business
            to change.  To those who mourn the pasing of the "old"
            DEC, is it possible the "new" Digital may be even better?
            If you don't think so, why bother hanging around.    
                                                             

>    RE:.54  I have been with DEC, now Digital, 5.5 years.  I have
>            to take the word of folks who tell me how great things 
>            used to be here.  I think those "golden years" are
>            gone forever.  It is the natural evolution of business
>            to change.  To those who mourn the pasing of the "old"
>            DEC, is it possible the "new" Digital may be even better?
>            If you don't think so, why bother hanging around.    
    
    Maybe I'm naive, but WHY do the "golden years" HAVE to be gone?  Why
    will it be impossible to once again have a company that actually
    BELIEVES its employees are the most important resource AND TREATS THEM
    THAT WAY?  One that tells the truth, and fosters an atmosphere where
    people can once again be passionate about their work?  One where trust
    and mutual respect is the rule rather than a vanishingly small
    exception?  If losing these things is the measure of a company maturing
    and/or experiencing "difficulties" then I fear this industry is doomed
    to go the way of most heavy manufacturing and become entrenched in the
    union vs. management adversarial relationship - one that I believe
    guarantees we'll lose to those companies that are working hard to
    retain their "golden years".  
    
    I believe it was in THIS notesfile that I read "The most important
    measure of a company's success is the amount of undemanded,
    unrequested, unpaid overtime voluntarily contributed by its imployees." 
    How much of that is happening here these days?
 

    
    Re: .54
    
    DEC may well have some "golden years" to come, but they won't "gold"
    in the same way they were.
    
    Steve
    

    .63
    
    I agree 100% with you...although the attitude has to begin with Palmer
    and needs to be fostered all the way down through the hells of the
    management bureaucracy.

             <<< Note 3054.65 by GUCCI::RWARRENFELTZ "Follow the Money!"
    >>>
    
        .63
    
    >>>I agree 100% with you...although the attitude has to begin with Palmer
    >>>and needs to be fostered all the way down through the hells of the
    >>>management bureaucracy.                               ^^^^^
                                                             ^^^^^
    
    
    
    				Malcolm.