Conference 7.286::digital

I feel much the same way about all the DECdirect catalogs. If you don't
know where it is in the book, you won't find it without looking at every page

maybe that's what "they" want...

dave

    
    
    Re: 
    
    
    Same reason why a PC with an Intel 386 with a 20 MHZ clock, known in
    the industry as a 320 would have a part no. such as " PC 757 " as an
    example. No rime, reason, or intuitive connection.
    
    And the same reason why the ALPHA wks starts at 3000, which is
    numerically lower than 5000, although several times faster than the
    5000 (this comment from a customer). 
    
    And on and on......   :-(
    
    
    
    
    

    that we either distribute to clients, or that we sales folk SHOULD use
    on a regualr basis that allows us to:
    
    QUICKLY find the right variant of our HW OR SW products?
    
    Easily locate the right price (particularly for SW)?
    
    The PC catalogs come CLOSE, but aren't there either.
    
    I don't believe this is entirely associated with the over-abundance of
    products/services we have.  I DO believe that the writers/publishers of
    these don;t have to use them on a daily basis...and DON'T GET THE
    FEEDBACK THEY SHOULD AS TO HOW HELPFUL THEY could BE (reverse 
    shouting ? ;-)
    
    A simple "how much is this" results in a 10 minute VTX Sales Update and
    AQS reference file inquiry!
    
    We are easy to do business with...we are easy to do business with...we
    are easy to do business with...

Here is a gem for you:
    
             <<< SSAG::DISK$ARCH2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ASK_SSAG.NOTE;4 >>>
                    -< Ask the Storage Architecture Group >-
================================================================================
Note 2627.0                   Pricing of RZ26 disks                    4 replies
SWAM1::DUTTA_VE "clintonism=Socialism"               16 lines   5-FEB-1994 00:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A large Digital customer is really  upset at Digital regarding pricing
    of 1GB drives. On page 87 of DECdirect Catalog (1994 Edition) we have
    1GB 3.5" disk (PB2RA-DA) for PCs priced at $1,399. On page 98 we
    have RZ26L-ET (1GB disk) for Jensen priced at $1,100. How can we expect
    a customer to pay $299 for a disk of the same capacity. May be we
    have not heard that the price of 1GB disk has fallen through the floor.
    Even the lower price of $1,100 is $400 more than the street price. With
    $1,399 for 1GB we are the laughing stock of the PC business. Sure, I can
    get the local management to discount the price to meet a reasonably
    priced disk from a competitor, but that takes time and resources.
        
    What can we do to fix this problem? Who do I need to send a message
    to get some attention. 
        
    Vern Dutta.  
     End of note 
================================================================================
Note 2627.1                   Pricing of RZ26 disks                       1 of 4
STAOFF::SMITH "All that is gold does not glitter"     8 lines   5-FEB-1994 05:02
                         -< Are they the same disks? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I thought the really expensive pc disk was a 1" disk form factor.
    
    I made the same observation when I considered buying myself
    a PC XL.
    
    I look forward to a clear answer.
    
    Dan
================================================================================
Note 2627.2                   Pricing of RZ26 disks                       2 of 4
CNTROL::FLATLEY                                      11 lines   6-FEB-1994 22:30
                         -< Also, the RZ25L/PCXAR-AH >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I posted note 2625 just the other day asking about the RZ25L.  The PC
    version of this disk is the FR-PCXAR-AH with a $1,099 list price and
    has a 3 year warranty.  The RZ25L goes for $775 and has a 5 year warranty. 
    I believe these are both Seagate ST610N's.   In my case I'm doing an
    employee purchase and would only get a 20% discount on the PCXAR but I
    get a 40% discount if I order the RZ25L making the PC version almost
    twice as expensive.  I also see the OEM version's of our drivers (with 
    the DSP part number) selling for a very reasonable price.  Why our PC 
    catalog prices so high for disks?
            

================================================================================
Note 2627.3                   Pricing of RZ26 disks                       3 of 4
SDOGUS::DUTTA                                         6 lines   7-FEB-1994 00:40
                 -< Customers are reluctant to use DECdirect >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One of the major objectives of catalogs like DECdirect is to encourage
    customers to buy directly without help from local sales and support
    people. Pricing issues like this discourage customers from buying
    directly.
    
    Vern Dutta. 
================================================================================
Note 2627.4                   Pricing of RZ26 disks                       4 of 4
LEDS::BRAUN "Rich Braun"                             12 lines   7-FEB-1994 10:39
                   -< Look for us in the back of a magazine >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have found that the DSP series of disk drives are priced below
    virtually all competitors, if you look for distributors' ads in such
    publications as Computer Shopper and PC Magazine.  These units have the
    same HDAs but different firmware from the RZxx series.
    
    Just another tidbit of info for the marketing/sales people.  This is
    the channel through which I purchase my own DIGITAL disk drives.
    
    -rich
    Mass Storage Engineering OEM D&SG  SHR1-3/O13    DTN:  237-2124
    Work: [email protected]                      508-841-2124
    Home: [email protected]

I also have major difficulty looking things up in the Software Price Book,
but (IMHO) it is not the fault of the organization or the book itself.  It
is instead the fault of our abysmal naming scheme(s) for our software.

For example, I want to find the price of Ada on the AXP 7610 running OpenVMS.
What is the name of the Ada product?
  - No, it is not Ada.
  - No, it is not VAX Ada (it used to be, but not anymore).
  - Oh, there it is, under DEC Ada.

Ok, now I understand: compilers are named DEC xxx.  So I go looking for BASIC.
  - No, it is not DEC BASIC.
  - Oh, there it is, under both VAX BASIC and BASIC.

So maybe compilers are under either DEC xxx, VAX xxx, or xxx.  Try Pascal.
  - It is under DEC PASCAL.
  - But wait, it is also under PASCAL and Pascal (lowercase sorts after all
    uppercase letters, which means the second entry is on the next page of 
    the index).

So for 3 different languages, we have 4 different naming schemes (DEC xxx,
VAX xxx, XXX, and xxx).

And I have never been able to find the part # for the Pathworks server for
OpenVMS either AXP or VAX in the Software Price Book.


What I always do is either:
  1) Look up the software in the SOC (Chapter 11, Software and Services),
     where the naming problem is just as bad, but I can scan the entire
     list in under a minute to usually locate what I need.
  2) Use VTX SPD with the keyword search.
  3) Look back on old quotes that I have done to find the information.

In all cases this yields a UPI which I can use to look up the information
in the Software Price Book.


While we are on the subject, has anyone seen the recent Network Buyers Guide?
I *loved* the last one (Annual Edition, 1992-1993), since it had solid and
detailed information about the products and how they worked together.  The
new one (1994 Edition, with what appear to be out-of-focus red marbles on
the cover) seems to be modelled after the PC catalogs, except without nearly
as much useful information :-(.

No specs, no details on what the equipment does, no information about how
the components work together, no hints about configuration guidelines (length
limits and such), no glossary.  In short, nothing that would help the average
technical person who is not a networking expert put together equipment and
have some reasonable expectation it will do what is needed.  Fully half of
the (very thin) manual is a puff piece on "Why Digital?", an ad for the
DEChub 900, and some meager descriptions of our software products.  (Well,
at least I found the UPI for Pathworks for OpenVMS!)

The worst failing is that almost every acronym is used without definition.
In the section labelled "ATM Ready" (I would have given the page number, but 
there are no page numbers for Chapter 1 (sigh)) is the following:

	ATM first evolved from the CCITT Broadband ISDN Wide Area Network
	Activity to integrate and switch all types of traffic (voice, video,
	and data).

Neither CCITT, Broadband or ISDN are defined anywhere in the book.  ATM is
defined, but never explained.

We took a good solid technical resource (the 1992-1993 edition) and watered
it down so it contains nothing that a networking expert would need, and yet
remains impenetrable for the rest of us.  Sigh.

-- Ken Moreau

    This would not be a complete solution to all the problems noted above,
    but I can't help observing that a good content-based retrieval system,
    running over all of the info currently available, under a simple
    graphical user interface, widely distributed to our field force (and
    even to our customers), would undoubtedly help...
    

    Re sw names, anyone try lately to find something on the cons cd?
    Some products take as long to find on the cd's because of the names
    as they do to install!
    

    
    Soooo, okay -- I ain't as whacky as I thought -- Seems that we have
    a problem (With 7 responses, I decreee this to be a scientific AND
    representative sample.)
    
    I was triggered by Digital names -- My hot button is "code names."  
    
    RZ26 -- R is rotation.  Z is SCSI --  26 is ??? (Perchance the number of
    times the engineer got lucky in a 12 month time interval? -- I dunno)
    
    Also -- Putting code names of systems in customer readable documents --
    I saw one and couldn't believe it.
    
    Sooo, what to do -- Seems to me we should somehow get someone to look
    at this as a project -- Prioritize it as one   that needs to be done
    AFTER we have posted 4 quarters of real profit.
    
    My .02
    
    Dennis
    

   .7> Re sw names, anyone try lately to find something on the cons cd?
   .7> Some products take as long to find on the cd's because of the names
   .7> as they do to install!

When you mount the CD define the logical name CD$DIRECTORY pointing to the
directory [CDROM] on the CD

Then define a symbol (I use CON_DIST) to SEARCH CD$DIRECTORY::CD_CONTENTS.DAT
for the product you want.

The output is a bit cryptic but you soon get used to it

For example I wanted to find the VAXCluster SPD earlier so I typed

$ con_dist cluster
"VAXcluster Console System"                                       V01AA  1.4   
 SSB   A  Y  N  N  VCS014           3
"VAXcluster Software Version 6.0 for OpenVMS VAX"                 VBRAA  6.0  
 SSB   A  N  N  Y  VAXCLU060        1

The first few fields of the output give the full product name and the UPI, the
last two fields give the Directory name and the CD number, so I now know to
mount CD number 1 and look in the directory [VAXCLU060]

Somewhat slower, but easier to interpret, you can 
$ RUN CD$DIRECTORY:CDMENU
which gives the following menu...

     **********************************************************************
     *                                                             V1.8   *
     *                     C D   M E N U   U T I L I T Y                  *
     *                                                                    *
     *                             MAIN MENU                              *
     *                                                                    *
     **********************************************************************
     *                                                                    *
     *              1  -  HELP                                            *
     *              2  -  Display products                                *
     *              3  -  Display product documentation                   *
     *              4  -  Print product documentation                     *
     *              5  -  Copy product release notes                      *
     *              6  -  Install product                                 *
     *                                                                    *
     *                    Control-Z to Exit                               *
     **********************************************************************


                     Enter your selection:

	Stuart

    Most of us sales slugs don't have a workstation or access to a
    consolidated CD.  Also, we don't have time to decode those numbers,
    then use them to go look for the information in a book which should
    have indexed the information usably in the first place.
    
    The Digital sales force is one of the least efficient in the industry,
    as we keep being told.  Anybody starting to get the idea why?
    

    re .6
    
    And I am sure you have something in mind, Dan... :-)
    
    q
    

Whatta team...  tnx for playing straight-man, Peter...

Cheers,

Dan Kalikow, Consultant,  Corporate IM&T Info. Delivery Utility (IDU) Group
Mailstop  MSO2/F4  Office at Pole B3   DTN: 223-3562  Outside: 508/493-3562
DIGITAL:  111 Powdermill Road, Maynard MA 01754-1418 USA  FAX: 508/493-7374
DECnet:   DRDAN::KALIKOW  Internet replies to:  [email protected]
+=============================================================================+
| IDU: "To Protect and to Serve Information" - via the DIGITAL World-Wide Web |
| Hello, <a href="http://nrsta2.mso.dec.com/kalikow/business-card.html">Hyper |
| World!</a>  - It's THAT easy to create a "link" - anywhere on Planet Earth! |
+=============================================================================+

    At least there IS a software price book.  I've been told recently there
    will no longer be a Systems & Options catalogue distributed to the
    sales force, that it's all available electronically.  This is just
    about the most asinine decision I've ever heard of.  How in the hell am
    I supposed to discuss any products with my customers (remember them ?)
    or even configure correctly or quote anything without a systems &
    options catalogue ?
    
    	It gets harder and harder to do a sale at Digital.  Is there a plot
    ongoing to make us all fail, so they can replace us with "younger",
    "cheaper" salesmen ???
    

Re: .9

The directory [README]CDMASTER_INDEX.TXT is a much better listing... here
is a command procedure that will do a decent job looking thru it:



$!kit_lookup.com
$! 05-Sep-91 L. Roth
$!
$!looks up kits on the first CONDIST CD and shows the user.
$!Logical CDROM_SW1: should point to the first disc in the CONDIST set.
$!
$ copy sys$input sys$output

HOW TO FIND SOFTWARE KITS & ASSOCIATED DOCUMENTS   Updated 27-Jul-93

The CDROM_SW:[xxxxxx.subdir] directories contain the software and
associated documentation.

xxxxxx = name of the directory shown in the listing below.  Subdir [.KIT]
contains savesets, subdir [.DOCUMENTATION] contains install manuals, cover
letters, SPD's and SSA's.

For a view of lines before & after your selected text, re-enter the command
as before but put a number following representing how many lines after the
match you wish to view, e.g.   "$ KIT FORTRAN 2".

Now searching the master list located on the first software CDROM
for the text you have entered...
                                                         CD
     SOFTWARE DESCRIPTION       VERSION   CODE           VOL  DIRECTORY
   -------------------------    -------   -----           _  ____________

$ if p1 .eqs. "" then goto msg2
$ wide = p2
$ if wide .eqs. "" then wide = "0"
$ sea/window=('wide,'wide) cdrom_sw1:[readme]cdmaster_index.txt 'p1
$ exit
$ msg2:
$ copy sys$input sys$output

You did not specify any text to search for... please re-enter with
somthing like this:

        'KIT FORTRAN' or 'KIT COBOL'

$ exit

I remember when the SW Price Book first came out...what a God-send!  Up 
until that point, we used to have to construct the part numbers by knowing 
the UPIs and figuring out what to put in columns 7-9 by looking at some 
chart.  When the SPB came out, all you have to do was find the page for a 
particular sw product and behold...all of the possible part numbers.  They 
used the same page format whether the product had dozens of possible part 
numbers or only a few.

Then the bean counters decided to save some money by getting rid of the 
wasted space that some of the products produced and squeezing as many 
products as possible onto each page.  The result is the POS .0 talked about.

At this point for as much good as it does us, they might as well save some 
more money and stop printing them altogether!  Or they could spend a few 
more bucks and make them usable again.

Rick C

    I was told this note was here, so I thought I should reply.  I
    manage the publication space responsible for the SPB.  
    
    We are always interested in improving the usability of our Price Lists.
    We aren't at all sensitive to criticism.  We get loads of comment cards
    back from our customers who love the SPB just the way it is, seriously,
    "loads".   I get frustrated at the lack of constructive negative
    feedback we receive.  On page 1.1 is a vaxmail node... it never
    receives any mail, we have a comment card on the back, and all we
    get back is positive information.  
    
    If you have some ideas let us know.  I personally am not satisfied with
    the organization myself.  I would prefer alphabetical.  We have
    included a line on the comment card, which asks users which they would
    prefer (the old way) alphabetical or the new way sectioned by operating
    system (which was a request from the PBU's).
    
    The business is complicated, no question there.  We printed only what
    was on the corporate price file, if it said VAX ADA we printed VAX ADA
    if it said DEC FORTRAN we printed DEC FORTRAN.  We cross reference
    as many products as we can in the index, we list products by just
    Fortran as opposed to DEC or VAX.  We are however trying to simplify
    the naming convention by removing DEC and VAX.
    
    There is also a description clean up under way in the corporate pricing
    group, starting with Hardware and then eventually moving to Software.
    
    I know people are busy, but the only way to correct something is to
    communicate your suggestions to me.  All we get back is positive 
    information, and each quarter we receive more and more requests 
    for distribution adds.  
    
    Our budget has almost been cut in half, and we are trying to do
    the best we can.  Again, you need to suggest to people that they send 
    feedback. We are open to making this a more usable tool.
    
    From what I know the SOC is not going away.  I've forwarded the mail
    message to the group resposible for the SOC, just to get some
    clarification.  Also, I have forwarded the problem with the DECdirect
    catalog to the person in charge of that.
    
    AGAIN... users need to start sending suggestions on ways to improve.
    You can send mail to Lisa Bakstran @MRO or FDCv07::bakstran or
    call dtn 297-5332.

RE: .16 (Lisa Bakstran)

Thank you for taking time to respond here.  It is good to know that someone
on the other side is listening to the (sometimes bitter) complaints.

As I said before, my frustration is *not* with the SPB, but with the naming
scheme that you are forced to work with.  My only problem is that I can 
never remember the units of a given VAX or AXP machine.

I was going to suggest that you print the unit costs of VAX systems on the
inside back cover of the book, but then I turned to that page and what did 
I find?  Exactly what I wanted.  I never knew it was there... (sigh)

Suggestion:

Put the media/documentation major part number with the license information.
It drives me nuts to have to look up the license and the media/doc in two
places in the same book.

Keep all of the information in the documentation section (ie, the part #s
for the individual books), but duplicate the major part # (the one most 
people want most of the time) as a single line item with the license.

Thanks for your consideration.  Let us hope that we can clean up the naming
scheme so your source material lends itself to usability.

-- Ken Moreau

    Re:
    .16:
    
    Thanks for the response -- Here's the deal --  About 4 years ago, we
    came out with a wonderous software price book -- It was a "Beta copy"
    and we were asked to respond to its organization -- I sent back the
    response saying:  "DON'T CHANGE IT -- IT's GREAAT!!!
    
    And it was because it was Alphabetized. It had power ratings on each
    product, it pointed to the SPD, AND it had the little funnies about the
    UPI at the bottom of the page.
    
    It also had the various services offering.  Soooooooooooo - on one nice
    little salesperson readable page we had just about everything we needed
    about the SW product.
    
    It was wonderous -- now, as I said before, we have a POS -- I'm not
    inferring that people aren't doing a good job -- I'm just saying that it
    ain't the good book!
    
    I don't know what people find nice about it.  I would consider parsing
    the book into multiple books (not sections).  
    
    I agree with naming conventions -- It's starting to sound like someone
    in military logistics has become a power broker inside of the Naming
    Convention cadre.
    
    My .02
    
    Dennis
    
     

    Hi Dennis.  I appreciate your response.
    
    In reality we truly only shrunk the one page format into a smaller
    template.  The ratings are still there for all Clusterwide licenses
    (since you don't really need them for Traditional License ordering and
     if you do there is a handy little chart on the last page of the book) 
    and for all LPS service offering,  the SPD number is still
    there and the funny little extras about each UPI are still listed
    at the end of each product.  Its just a smaller version, driven 
    by budget cuts, save the trees efforts, etc.   If a part number
    you are looking for isn't listed, its because it isn't offered.
    
    I do think the sectioning is a major bone of contention with some
    people.  Our comment cards are coming back with leave as is separated
    by Operating System.. so I suppose its personal preference.
    
    There is an easy to use rating chart on the very last page of the
    book as well.  There are two indexes in the back one by UPI and
    another by product name, the product name index also cross references
    products by their more common names.  If you were looking for Fortran
    you can find it in the index under DEC Fortran, VAX Fortran or Fortran
    for OpenVMS, etc.  
    
    We have a very large DECdirect distribution list.  As a matter of fact
    we received a call a week ago for extra copies.  I would be more than
    happy to call the person to whom you spoke at DD to see if we can
    offer them some assistance in using the book.  For that matter if
    anyone would like to speak to us offline we would be more than happy
    to help you maneuver your way through the book.
    
    To date we've only receive one comment from this note, I hope more
    of you with concerns will send us mail.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    

    There are alternatives to the price books we publish.
    
    There are two tools that I am aware of, one I manage that will address
    some of the issues I have read in this string.
    
    To build SW Licenses, there is the SW License configurator.  
    
    To build all Multivendor Customer Services, there is SWIFT.
    
    I manage SWIFT and can assure you that it builds the appropriate part
    numbers as well as prices for Software Product Services.  This includes
    power ratings, meda update service and specifically, Consolidated
    Distribution.  In addition to building the part numbers, there is
    a lookup feature for Condist availability.
    
    I believe the Software License Configurator also builds initial media
    kits as well as licenses.
    
    Both SWIFT and SLC reside on AQS and have been there for well over two
    years.
    
    While these tools may not solve all the problems identified here, they
    will certainly help in the configuration and pricing of Licenses and
    Services.
    
    Kevin Duhaime
    

The day after I posted my reply, I had to look up the part 
number/price of our defragmenter product...it took me ten 
minutes!

I remember the acronym is DFO, so I'm thinking Disk File 
Optimizer...no luck.

How about Digital File Optimizer...nope.  VAX Disk...naa.  
VMS Disk...no way.
OpenVMS D...forget it.  

How about a sequential search of the Index...there it 
is...File Optimizer...we dropped the D.  Where was I when all 
this D-dropping was going on?


Rick C

    Rick,
    
    	I went into SWIFT and searched by File Optimzer;  SWIFT gave the
    	following;
    
    DEC FIL OPT VMS           GJ8
    VAX DIST FILE             VEQ
    
        Were either of these the one you were looking for?  If not, please
    contact me offline and I'll be glad to help.
    
    Searching by product name is an effort.  Hopefully this helps.
    
    Kevin Duhaime
    DTN 297-55707

    There you go again, Kevin :-)  Not everyone has access to SWIFT.
    
    The topic is about the price book.  There are still too many field
    people who do not have laptops and workstations available to them.
    Their only recourse is to use our price books, and therein lies the
    problem.  Most of us know our ABCs, but with our ridiculous naming
    schemes for our products (and the constant re-naming of them) it's
    getting impossible to find them when your primary focus is the price
    book.
    
    The "official" name of the product (today) is DEC File Optimizer.  I
    went to the current price book and looked under the Ds.....duh....not
    there.  Finally found the sucker on page 2.99 listed as File Optimizer
    OpenVMS VAX.
    
    I wish I had a dollar for every rep who has called since RSM (Remote
    System Manager) was re-named to POLYcenter Software Distribution!!!
    You wouldn't believe the number of reps who thought that we had re-
    tired RSM and weren't selling it any longer.  The first time I had a
    call on RSM I finally found the "new" product because I remembered that
    the UPIs were B13 & B14 for RSM and just for the heck of it I popped
    those part #s into AQS....sure enough there it was...POLY SD SRV V/V???
    The real kick in the head was when I looked in the SW Price Book
    in section where I might expect to find POLYcenter mumble, mumble....
    you guessed it....it isn't there!!
    
    
    

    Karen,
    	
    	Thanks for the note.  I am curious as to who in the field does not
    have access to SWIFT or the SLC?  Any rep that has AQS has access to
    both.  We've also installed SWIFT on all the MCS service machines, so
    our base reps have access.  We've also installed on the Electronic
    store so resellers and channel partners have access.  Any rep that
    doesn't have access to SWIFT can contact me directly and I'll work the
    issue of access.
    
    I'm not trying to defend the product name issue.  I happen to think
    it's extremely difficult to search for a product by the product name.
    
    I do think that we need to create awareness that there are other tools
    available to assist in selling product and services.  The price book is
    valuable, but we as a selling organization must provide easy to use,
    updated information on a daily basis.  

    Kevin,
    
    The point you seem to be missing is that for whatever the reason,
    there are field people are there who DO NOT have ready access to
    some of our electronic look-ups.  I know most field people are
    supposed to have lap-tops; the reality is there are far too many
    field people who still do not have these tools at their disposal.
    I suppose there might be a few people who call us when they are in  
    a DEC office rather than look a part up themselves, but as best I
    can determine most of the calls I get are when the rep is off-site
    and doesn't have access to AQS, SWIFT or some of the other tools 
    and needs assistance real-time.
    
    So, when they head out to a customer's site, they throw the U.S. Soft-
    ware price books in their briefcases and head off.  In times past,
    these books were fairly accurate as to part #s etc; most reps knew
    that pricing could fluctuate; so they waited until they could gener-
    ate the actual quote (once they got back to the office) before dis-
    cussing prices with the customer.  When these books contain inaccurate
    information, or suddenly a part # gets omitted from one edition of the book
    to another then we are creating headaches for field people.  Our
    scheme for naming products is a disaster and a big part of the prob-
    lem.  Our constant RE-naming of products is a bigger pain.
    
    I understand the base-noter's frustration completely.  The base noter
    is an internal employee; combine his frustration with that of many of
    our VARs and re-sellers who must also rely on the books when the E-
    store is down or they are not by a terminal and it's obvious this
    could be costing DEC big time.
    
    Karen
    
    PS:  If you are hearing complaints that DEC-SALE is giving out bad
    	 part #s I can guarantee you that we have someone(s) who is not
    	 following the team standard of always checking a part # in
    	 AQS before giving it out.  I'll bring this up at our next staff
    	 meeting.
    

Actually, when I was trying to look up our defragmenter product I was at my 
desk with the capability, had I wanted to, to log into an AQS system and use 
the SWIFT tool.  But I'm used to just grabbing the price book because it used 
to only take a few seconds to find what I wanted rather than a couple of 
minutes to log into a VAX and menu my way down to the information.

Besides, if it doesn't have a Windows front end, why would I waste my time 
learning to use a new tool ;-)

Rick C

    Re: 2917.25
    
    Karen,
    
    	You know me, I didn't take offense at your comments!
    
    The real point I'm trying to make is that we must, as a sales
    organization, stop relying on price books and start relying on
    automated tools that are available.  If the tools are not sufficient,
    we need to make whatever enhancements are necessary immediately to
    assist the selling rep.  I happen to base 90% of SWIFT enhancements and
    modifications based on field input, not corporate.  Headquarters needs
    to understand that these tools are designed to sell quickly and easily,
    by the sales rep, not a corporate committee.
    
    The process seems slow, but we are putting laptops into the hands of
    our selling reps.  This process needs to be accelerated.
    
    Re: 2917.26 EPAVAX::CARLOTTI
    
    Rick,  I understand your reluctance to use a new tool.  However, if the
    tool provides the necessary information quickly, then it has served its
    purpose.
    
    Additionally, SWIFT is available on both VAX and PC platforms.  The PC
    kit has a Windows front end and is extremely user friendly.  If you
    need further info, please contact me offline.
    
    Kevin
    

    Now how am I supposed to know that "Services and Warranty Information
    Field Tool" (aka SWIFT) has all sorts of software information in it?
    
    
    Well, I guess I do *now*!  :-)

    This thread seems to be forgetting entirely the most important reader
    of such information- CUSTOMERS. Try to keep in mind that Digital exists,
    not to keep everyone in headquarters employed, but to provide goods and
    services that our CUSTOMERS will buy.
    
    Let me assue you, our CUSTOMERS do not read SWIFT, AQS or any other
    such stuff,all they can read is the written word, and our writen word
    is unuseable. So after a customer spends a bit of time trying to figure
    out our arcane parts numbers and such, they try to find a way to buy a
    similar prodcut from someone that can answer such simple questions as
    whats the part number, how much does it cost?
    
    I hope we can this damn place CUSTOMER focused before its to late.
    

Continuing .29 -< remember CUSTOMERS??? >-

>    Let me assue you, our CUSTOMERS do not read SWIFT, AQS or any other
>    such stuff,all they can read is the written word, and our writen word
>    is unuseable. 

Remember the constant complaints about the high cost of sales?  By giving 
the price books to my customers, I try to make them as self-sufficient as
possible, for the simple jobs (ie, getting a ball-park price for estimation
purposes for off-the-shelf solutions such as "How much would it cost to
add FORTRAN to our current system" or "How much would it cost to add 10GB
more disk space to our current system").

Having them call me for every one of those questions, having me go into the
on-line services to dig up the answer, then call them back, and then have
them tell me they have changed their mind and would I now please look up 
how much C costs for their current system, all of this drives the cost of
sales through the roof.

It means I spend my time on things which have little payback for Digital,
as opposed to building campaigns for $M systems integration efforts, which
will solve customer problems with stuff the customer isn't even aware we
offer.

Remember, give a person a fish and they eat for a day, teach them to fish
and they eat forever.  Right now (due to the appalling naming schemes of
our software products), we are supplying our customers with beautiful
fishing poles, 100lb test line, and no hooks or bait...

-- Ken Moreau

P.S. I have been working with AQS and doing quotes for over 4 years, and
     am fairly experienced with our on-line systems.  This discussion is
     the first time I have *heard* of SWIFT, and I have no idea if it would
     be useful to me or not.  Can some kind person explain to me what it 
     is, how to get access to it, and why I would want to use it?  Thanks...

    .30> "giving the price books to my customers, I try to make them as
    self-sufficient as possible, for the simple jobs (ie, getting a
    ball-park price for estimation purposes for off-the-shelf solutions
    such as "How much would it cost to add FORTRAN to our current system"
    or "How much would it cost to add 10GB more disk space to our current
    system")."
    
    Hate to sound like a "one-trick pony," but that's also one of the
    benefits of DIGITAL's presence on the World-Wide Web, which was done
    largely by Russ Jones and Friends.  This material includes the Digital
    Technical Journal, all the press releases, Product Bulletins, and on
    and on ... and then there's the EStore for actual ordering...  
    
    Why -- I've even heard of DIGITAL salesfolk who, not having in-office
    access to the Web (as yet), actually calling on customers and asking
    for a bit of private workstation time, so they can visit THEIR OWN
    product literature and take a computer-assisted skim thru it!  It
    seems, _mirabile dictu,_ that it's more efficient to use the online
    search engines associated with this material to find the relevant stuff
    than it is to leaf thru the tens of pounds of mostly-wasted paper it's
    also printed on... assuming that they've not roundfiled it in the first
    place...  a glimpse of the future... :-)
    

    Re: Past Few
    
    SWIFT is available through the Electronic Store and has been for
    approximately 3 years.  Hundreds of customers use it every month.
    
    If our customers can use the application to build their own service
    solutions, then I'd say we've taken a step in reducing cost of sale.
    
    

    Re: 2917.30
    
    SWIFT has been on AQS for approximately 3 years.  You will find it
    listed as Option 17 from the AQS Main menu.
    
    If you'd like additional info, please feel free to contact me offline.
    
    Kevin
    

Re: .30

The reason you and I never heard of SWIFT is that it's one of those 
subjects that only gets talked about off line ;-)  Maybe someday SWIFT will 
come out of the closet and be advertised in a Reader's Choice mail message.


Okay...I'll stop poking fun.  If there's a Windows front end, count me IN!

Let's do something really crazy:

	Post the information I need to install and run the Windows front 
	end right here in this note.  Come on ... throw care to the wind!
	My palms are sweating just thinking about it...is your heart racing
	too?

Okay, okay...no more fun, I promise!

Rick C

    Rick,
    
    	SWIFT has been published in numerous Readers Choice messages,
    especially in the past 3 weeks.  Could it be you're behind in your
    mail?  ;)
    
    For those individuals that are not part of the MCS Sales Notebook
    program who wish to have a copy of SWIFT, please send me a message
    to Kevin Duhaime @MRO.  (Yes, this has to be done offline).
    
    I would also suggest that you take a look at the SWIFT/VAX kit that
    resides on AQS.  This was also  widely communicated!
    
    Please remember, SWIFT is a MCS Services configuration tool.
    
    Kevin
    

    
    re -.1
    
    >>> Please remember, SWIFT is a MCS Services configuration tool.
    
    Nothing like a seperate sales force all with their own set of tools.
    
    -Mike Z.

re: .35

I'm now part of Ed Lucente's Sales Org so I'm not sure if it's a good idea
for us to meet at an MCS water cooler...


	... but I would like to try your software ;-)

    Because the naming conventions of software products are changing
    such as DEC to Digital, removing VAX putting in VAX, the price list
    will now migrate to listing products by there product names...
    no more DEC Fortran, just Fortran, no more DEC File Optimizer, just
    File Optimizer.  The naming conventions are to chaotic to keep up
    with.
    
    It will however, cross reference in the INDEX by the old and new names.
    If your looking for DEC Fortran use the INDEX and look under D,
    or look under F for Fortran.
    
    USE THE INDEXES>>> USE THE INDEXES>>>>> they are very helpful and
    quick.  There are two of them one by Product names, and one by
    the Product's UPIs.  Two indexes!   You can find Fortran listed under
    DEC under VAX or under just Fortran.  
    
    

    Alright, here's a question for all you SPB users.  Quite a few
    software products went from VAX, DEC to POLYCENTER.. say DEC
    network manager 200 is now POLYCENTER Manager 200.  How do you
    want it listed in the main section of the book (not the index we
    can cross reference both there).  Network Manager 200 or POLYCENTER
    Network Manager 200?
    
    Here's your chance to impact the July SPB.  Majority rules.
    Send mail to CASPRO::LMARINO with your preference.
    
    Thanks.

    Just put it in the index both ways.  Then no one really cares how it is
    actually listed.

What about putting *every single word* in the product name in the index,
including *every single word* of the last 10 names of the product (that should 
cover at least the last few quarters of name changes for most products)?

So, for example, FORTRAN would be listed under FORTRAN, DEC FORTRAN, 
VAX FORTRAN, VMS FORTRAN and OpenVMS FORTRAN.  The File Optimizer (UPI GJ8, 
which as far as I can tell is not listed *anywhere* in the name index) would 
be listed under Disk File Optimizer, File Optimizer, Optimizer, DFO, VAX 
Disk File Optimizer, VMS File Optimizer, and OpenVMS File Optimizer.

The whole point is to allocate a few extra pages to the index, but to have
a much higher chance of actually being able to find the name.

I don't believe it would be that difficult to simply cycle through all of
the words in the name when building the index.

-- Ken Moreau

    Modulo the removal and non-indexing of the so-called "garbage words"
    such as A, AN, THE, etc., that's _exactly_ what is done when material
    is automatically indexed, for example by CBRS (the technology that is
    built into VTX-TR and which is being explored by my colleague Bob
    Fleischer of the IM&T Info Delivery Utility Group).  
    
    When an infobase is searchable via CBRS or WAIS (Wide Area Information
    Service, another auto-indexing algorithm), that means that the thing
    that is ACTUALLY searched is a construct called a "reverse index"
    (sorry I don't know many of the implementation details yet) which may
    be interrogated on-line and the "hits" can be fed back with astounding
    speed -- orders of magnitude faster than searching the infobase proper.
    
    That on-line, easy access technology should be put into users' hands.
                             

re Note 2917.42 by DRDAN::KALIKOW:

>     that means that the thing
>     that is ACTUALLY searched is a construct called a "reverse index"
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        It's a "word index", also called a concordance.  (It's
        generally just an index of every non-trivial word -- nothing
        "reverse" about it.  On the other hand such an index is often
        called an "inverted file" in the sense that it contains
        essentially the same information as the original documents
        except that you find words pointing to documents rather than
        documents containing words.)

        Bob

    Although this is perhaps late, I thought I'd jump in.
    
    Attached is memo I sent this to "Delta" a long time ago (date? perhaps
    1991). I'm sorry to say many of the suggestions were not acted 
    on.  You'll note that it addresses bigger issues than just reading 
    the Software Price Book.  Like now its almost April and the field 
    is still working off the October '93 Systems and Options Catalog.
    
    Sigh.
    
    

Problem:  Too many sources of product information, each incomplete in the 
          "whole picture," contributing to waste, confusion, and 
          unecessary expense:

    	EXAMPLES (and my comments)
    
	  SYSTEMS AND OPTIONS CATALOG - best source for part numbers, but 
          no pricing.  Dry, thorough product descriptions that are 
          sometimes incomplete or innacurate.  Some pictures.  Written in 
          "DECspeak."

	  NETWORK BUYERS GUIDE - Great network maps and topological 
          layouts, part numbers, but no pricing.

	  SALES UPDATE - timely, with part numbers and pricing, but 
          "internal use only."  No pictures.  Written in "DECspeak."

	  CUSTOMER UPDATE - timely, but no pictures.  Some part numbers 
          but no pricing.  Some customer benefits.

	  PRODUCT BULLETINS (glossy brochures) - Good benefit information 
          for customers, good photo, no part numbers and no pricing.
	  
	  SOFTWARE PRODUCT DESCRIPTIONS (SPD) - Good, dry, technical 
          information.  Some part numbers in SSA, but need another source
	  (like Software Price Book) to complete part numbers.  No 
          pricing.

	  DECDIRECT - good pictures, part numbers, and pricing.  Not 
          timely, and not all products are represented.  Not a complete, 
          thorough description.  Written in English!

	  US SYSTEMS PRICE LIST AND US SOFTWARE PRICE LIST - prices, if
	  you know the right part number and can find it in the book.

Result:	  1.  Sales Rep wastes time tracking down all sources and 
          cross-referencing for "best" product info, including editing 
          Sales Update articles because they include pricing.  (Customer 
          Update was supposed to eliminate this task but didn't because 
          pricing is not included.)

	  2.  Company spends wasteful dollars on "competing," redundant 
          information sources.

	  3.  Customer gets confused when he/she is presented with 
          multiple, incomplete sources of product information.  (Isn't it 
          wasteful and silly to give a customer a (whole) Systems and 
          Options Catalog, a glossy, a (whole) US System Price List, a 
          (whole) U.S. Software Price List, and perhaps an Update article 
          (your choice) and an SPD??

	  And the customer *only* asked:  How much does it cost and what 
          does it do?

	  How much does it cost Digital each time this 	happens?  
          (publication costs?  sales costs in researching, locating, and 
          editing?  

Suggestion:

	  1.  Sales and customers need ONE SOURCE for product 
          information.  It should be short and complete.  This source 
          should answer the following questions in order to help form a 
          buying decision (current sources of information listed)

	       *  What does it do?  (SPD, SOC, N/W Guide, Glossy, Update 
               article, DECdirect)

	       *  What are the benefits and why should I buy it?  
               (Glossy, DECdirect, Update)

	       *  What is the correct part number? (SOC, N/W Guide, 
               Update, DECdirect)
	       		
               *  What are the prequisities to using this product?
	       (SOC, N/W Guide, SPD)

               *  What does is cost?  (USPL, US Software Price List)

	  2.  Digital needs one group to oversee all publications to 
          avoid these duplications and costs.
	  
	  3.  Like all great successes at Digital, we need a "Product 
          Description Architecture" for consistency and ease-of-use.


    

    No wonder it's "unusable".  This field office is at least using the
    February 94 Books.......
    
    Toodles.....JP

    I was told by our librarian in this field office that we ordered a 
    bulk shipment of the Feb. SOCs back in early December, but due to
    "a major mix-up in distribution," they have not arrived yet.  They are
    now expected in two weeks, which means Mid-April, which means by the 
    time the local sales force gets them to customers it could be late
    April or early May.
    
    For a catalog dated February.
    
    We can't even do the fundementals of business correctly; how are we
    supposed to be a world-class competitor?

    Locals who didn't received the SOC called the internal support
    people and they didn't have one either.  Orders were lost because
    nobody could configure a system.

    
    	Well, we are still waiting for ours ordered 4 weeks ago.
    
    				Malcolm.

Back to the Software Price List.

I'm the editor of the U.S. Software Price List and have been
made me aware of some of the issues that have been arising.

There has been a lot of messages about how difficult the Software book is
to use. We cross reference the product name a couple of different ways to
help locate a product.  As a result of user feedback, we are currently 
enhancing our system to allow us to enter several cross reference names.  
Although, we are still finding out that many users are not utilizing the 
indexes provided.  There are two indexes, one by product name and one by 
UPI to assist in locating a product.  Also, there is an introduction page at 
the beginning of the book which goes into more detail on how the book is 
arranged and how to use it. If you read this it may help to understand the 
format of the book a little better and in turn help locate products quicker.

Aside from the product names, are there any other enhancements you'd like 
to see?  Would the book be more useful if all products were in alphabetical
order?  Or do you prefer the current format broken out by operating system?

Is there any additional information you'd like to see in the preface 
section that would be useful?  

Are there any changes to the format that you feel would make a product
easier to locate?

We are considering breaking out the Third Party/PC Section further by
operating system (DOS, WINDOWS, IBM etc.).  Would this be helpful or
more confusing?

Would it help if we've listed products that retired since the previous
quarter?

We keep emphasizing how important your feedback is to us, but we have
only received a couple of comments.  Please take a few minutes and let
us know how we can enhance the Software Price List to make it a better
reference tool for you.

You can send me mail directly to Irene O'Grady at CASPRO::OGRADY.

    Here's another example of our inefficient information access tools and
    systems:
    
    OBJECTIVE:  *Quickly* look up a description of VAXcluster software to
    supplement my memory in order to respond to a customer via Internet.
    
    APPROACH USED:
    
    1.  Look in SOC Index.  See no listing for VAXcluster.
    2.  Look under software.  No luck.
    3.  Look in Table of Contents.  Find chapter 12 (Software) but only
    summary giving UPI and SPD numbers, no pages.
    4.  Look in DECdirect Software catalog Topic Index; only find SPD
    listing (page 4, which is really a description of what a SPD is).
    5.  Look in Table of Contents; find no software section.
    6.  Look again in SOC Software Product Summary and find, on page 12.23,
    index giving me UPI of VBR.
    7.  Turning again to the DECdirect Software catalog, I am able to cross
    reference VBR in the UPI Index to get page number 14.
    8.  Get what I am after (located in the "Operating Environments"
    section.)
    9.  Realize in typing this up that *VMS*cluster Overview is listed
    in the SOC Index in the chapter titled "High Availability and High
    Performance Products."  No cross-listing from VAXcluster given.
    
    TOTAL ELAPSED TIME:  About 7 minutes.
    
    NUMBER OF PLACES SEARCHED:	11.
    
    FRUSTRATION LEVEL REACHED:  Nine on a 1-10 scale.

    I too have gone thru the PAPER based search process you describe in -.1
    How about trying ONLINE searchs.  I suggest VTX Access "Products" or
    the new VTX IR.  I'll be curious as to your productivity inprovement.

        Re:            <<< Note 2917.53 by NWD002::THOMPSOKR "Kris with a K" >>>

        Kris,
        
        Your critisism is not about the software price book, which is the
        focus of this thread.   The conversation gets very confusing when
        its all apples and oranges.
        
        I did try to look up VAXcluster Software in the price book, which
        I used right now for the first  time.    It  took me less than 30
        seconds!
        
        Because I used the Software Price Book as the example in my "Lets
        do something about it" note, I decided to get  to  the  bottom of
        this  issue  and  went  and  talked to the group responsible  for
        putting it together.  What's depressing is that they get precious
        little constructive  feedback  and support.  If all of the energy
        put into writing  this thread had been applied to contacting them
        and discussing the book  with  them  we  all would be better off.
        The vast majority of feedback they get is from customers who fill
        out the response form in the  back.   Very few internal responses
        are received.
        
        Another point I want to make is  that the publishing group cannot
        make  up  for  weaknesses in the material they  get.    Our  part
        numbering  scheme  is obscure, our product naming conventions are
        strange  and they have to carry 2,000 part numbers where  80%  of
        the business is generated by 20% of the parts.  There  are places
        you can give feedback on part numbering and product naming, but I
        bet they don't get constructive input either.
        
        So I think we are barking up the wrong tree.
        
        Anker

    re .55
    
    Ok Anker - I think it's been put in before, but can't be repeated
    enough.  As a result of your research - who should be contacted?
    
    /Butch

    Re .-1
    
    While I agree with your sentiments I think the authors of the Price
    Book should be thankful for this string. There is a LOT of good input
    here. They should just filter out the opinion and snide comments and be
    very thankful they are receiving feedback. This should enable them to
    improve their product.
    
    Too often people ignore or reject valid feedback because it comes
    through channels that are deemed "unofficial" or feedback is dismissed
    as "whining". I think this is a pity.
    
    Dave

        Re:      <<< Note 2917.56 by TPSYS::BUTCHART "Software Performance Group" >>>

        Susan Vincent  is  the  individual  who  is  responsible  for the
        software  price  book.    I  am  sure  she  will  appreciate  any
        constructive input.  She  has been reading this string.
        
        Anker

    Any feedback can be sent to Irene O'Grady @MRO or VAXmail
    FDCV07::I_OGRADY or DTN/297-5293.
    
    Sue Vinicent is our programming support.
    
    - Irene