Conference 7.286::digital

   It would be interesting to see an IM&T VP explain to Mr. Lucente why
   we lost a multimillion $ bid because he didn't want to restore a
   proposal that was accidently deleted.
   

    Here's a line that you can add to your login.com to minimize such
    disasters in the future: DE*LETE == "DELETE/CONFIRM/LOG". The system
    will prompt you for each file before deletion. If you're trying to
    delete a bunch of files, and are sure that you have the right files
    selected, just answer A for all at the propmt. Otherwise, you'll have
    to answer each file that's deleted.
    
    Too bad VMS doesn't have an UNDELETE option or SMARTCAN like PC's use.
    :-( Then you can just restore your files right away!
    
    Sounds like the IM&T folks have totally lost sight of the 'customer
    service' part of their business. :-(
    
    Harry
    

    Gee, I'd put that in my login.com, but I don't *have* one anymore :-)
    
    Actually, I finally got through to a supervisor, and she agreed to see
    what she could do to have the files restored, though at 'low priority.' 
    Glad to see a policy like tins is giving me the opportunity to make so
    many long distance phone calls and consume the time of so many people.
    :-(

    
    	Shouldn't there be a ":" after the DE*LETE?
    
    ie. DE*LETE:=="delete/confirm/log"
    
    	NOT that I know much about these things, just that my LOGIN.COM
    file has a ":" before the other "=="
    
    				Malcolm.

>    	Shouldn't there be a ":" after the DE*LETE?

    See VMS on-line help:
    
        $ help
        
    At the HELP> prompt look up
    
        :=
    
    and
    
        =
        
    Then you'll know about these things.
    
    ...petri

    I accidentally deleted a single file a few weeks ago, it was restored
    with no hassle, and quickly (I'm in Production Systems Engineering at
    TAY) ...
    			Jim

    Re: .0 > Now, could someone explain to me how taking a sales person 
    	     out of productive time for a day while he/she recreates 
    	     files accidentally deleted saves money for *anyone*?
    
    Well, it sure saves time and effort on the part of IM&T.  (If that's
    the kind of cost "savings" we're looking for, that is)

    I have a clustered workstation. All the files are on the work
    disk which is shared cluster wide and backed up overnight. None
    the less I do an incremental backup of my account every night (saving
    10 days worth) and a full backup every weekend. Sometimes if I've
    done a lot of good stuff I'll do a backup at lunch time as well.

    Sure I trust the people who do the backup and yes they've been good
    about restoring things in the past. But I've lost too much over the
    years by relying on others for something as important to me as my work.

    BTW, before I had this nice situation I did regular tape backups once
    or twice a week. But I've been backing up my own stuff since college
    20 years ago. (As an aside, I still have the DECtape that I backed my
    college projects up to just before graduation. Can't read it on
    anything but I've got it. :-) )

    			Alfred

    re -.1 and responsibility
    
    Hey, I'm *very* responsible, and back up my own important data when I
    can.  But I'm in a stinkin remote office sitting at a VT330 attached to
    a modem.  How would *you* suggest I back up important files?   A Robin,
    maybe?
    

    
>How would *you* suggest I back up important files?   A Robin,
>    maybe?
    
    I have been known to downline load really important files to my
    old Rainbow. :-)
    
    		Alfred

Some bean counter is liable to figure out how much money
IPM&T can save in tapes and labor by not doing *any* 
backups. And while they're at it, they can save money
and equipment by eliminating all those redundant shadow
set members. I mean, if it was  really important, you
would carve it on stone tables, wouldn't you?

    .9
    
    >Hey, I'm *very* responsible, and back up my own important data when I
    >can.  But I'm in a stinkin remote office sitting at a VT330 attached to
    >a modem.  How would *you* suggest I back up important files?   A Robin,
    >maybe?
    
    what's a robin? any way, this senirio you explained is NO execuse for
    you not to back up, if you _REALLY_ wanted to backup up you .com files
    you could for example buy a local printer and attach it to your 
    terminal, then what you want saved you can print to the printer by 
    doing ^F2 while it scrolls on the screen then you can take the printout 
    buy your own scanner and PeeCeee and scan it and you can also buy a PeeCeee 
    backup tape and copy the scanned print out to the PeeCeee tape and here
    you have your backup.
    
    if you have the will, you'll find the means.
    
    \nasser
      

    re -.1  Yeah, *That's* the ticket.  I wonder if my manager will knock a
    couple $M (that's million bucks) off my budget so I have time for all
    of that.
    
    Better yet, maybe I'll ask to have my ALL-IN-1 account disabled and
    *insist* that all of my mail be sent USPS.  Then we can pay the mail
    carrier instead of DEC employees, huh?

We had a problem with backups a few months ago.  Operations (MKO IPM&T?) 
were only backing up 1 disk out of a 3 volume set!  We moved the systems
and were going to use the standard backups to restore the files to
different disks.

It was only due to our paranoid system manager who made her own backups
that this company didn't loose *ALL* copies of sources to UIS as the
backups that went to fire storage for the last couple of years were also
BAD.

Backups here in ZKO have been without "/verify" for a long time and there
no sampling to see if the backups are any good.  The staff was cut back too
much to have time for that.  

I've also heard stories about tape drives that are used for backups being
broken for weeks before it is reported.  We also had once where operations
didn't have our new 'root' password and didn't tell us for a couple of weeks
that they were missing it.

Garry

Re: .2
    <<< Note 2914.2 by USHS01::HARDMAN "Massive Action = Massive Results" >>>
                         -< How to set up a roadblock >-

>    Too bad VMS doesn't have an UNDELETE option or SMARTCAN like PC's use.
>    :-( Then you can just restore your files right away!




How about:
        $ DEFINE TRASH$CAN SYS$LOGIN_DEVICE:[top.trash]
	$ de*lete == "@DELETE.COM"

where DELETE.COM

	$ COPY 'p1' TRASH$CAN:
	$ DELETE = ""		! LOCAL DEFINITION CLEARED
	$ DELETE/LOG 'P1'

Seems to work here.

You might want a trashcan cleanout procedure also.

    If they have a backup that has a deleted file then they should do 
    the right thing and restore it.  Don't give me the policy crap.   They 
    should do the right thing and help a fellow employee.  Now if this
    is some IMPT (or whatever they call themselves) funding issue maybe
    they should charge $$ to do this.  
    
    worse case - They have a tape with a file you need restored - get the
    tape and do it yourself.  
    
    

re: .0

I got caught up in variation of this scheme a few years back.

In my all-for-nothing account, I deleted a document, the nightly janitor ran
and cleaned out my wastebasket, (and as it always happens) a few days later I
realized I needed the document.  Called CNS and was told they don't restore
individual files.  I had two choices, have my file cabinet restored and lose
everything I had done in the past few days, or live without my file.

Bob

>Now if this is some IMPT (or whatever they call themselves) 
>funding issue maybe they should charge $$ to do this.  

I have heard of some cases where companies don't like having
a computer department manager because they end up being the
power-monger over everyone's data.  To make themselves look
good (revenue-wise), they charge for this ... charge for that.

A less-abrasive technique would have it so that all defined 
normal operations be charged at a fixed rate.  Any out-of-
the-ordinary items (i.e. restoring deleted files, an extra 
backup processed above the norm, restoring archived data and
reports, etc.) becomes charged to a cost center.

So then it comes down to a simple question... is the cost center 
willing to pay for the error or additional service?

re:               <<< Note 2914.14 by FREBRD::POEGEL "Garry Poegel" >>>

>We had a problem with backups a few months ago.  Operations [ONDTPTI�] 
>were only backing up 1 disk out of a 3 volume set!

On more than one occasion in the last several years these types of things
have happened in various organizations I've worked in. I'm not sure why,
and I don't want to assign any blame. But for the good of everyone, it's
always best to have system management and someone else in the user
community frequently and regularly check that _ALL_ significant disk
volumes are being backed up regularly as expected. An ounce of detection
is worth . . . 

-Jack


�ONDTPTI=Organization Name Deleted To Protect The Innocent

    Simple solution.  Never delete anything.  Never purge any files. 
    
    Pretty soon we'll have a use for the Mill as storage for all the
    backup tapes that IM&T won't use for anything but catastrophes.  
    

    It is this type of mentality that could be the demise of this company.  
    
    .20 So then it comes down to a simple question... is the cost center
    .20 willing to pay for the error or additional service?
    
    Here is another take on this - 
    
    It comes down to a simple question of is the organization willing
    to do the right thing to create a "win win" situation?  To help the
    customers - THE REASONS THEY HAVE JOBS.  It's funny because as we 
    speak I have a need to restore a file but because of this stupid 
    "lose lose" policy I cannot.  IM&T loses because they failed to service
    a customer when they could have.     So who wins?   NOBODY.  My 
    customer doesn't, I don't because I can't gain access to a file 
    CSSE needs and Digital doesn't win because Engineering because we 
    cannot reproduce the problem and fix software.   
    
    I am sorry to say but if this organization fails to remember WHO their
    customers are - they will not have customers.  WHO IS ALWAYS RIGHT?
    THE CUSTOMER IS.   
    
    IF this group operates by any policy at all it should be that the
    group does everything in its power to do the right thing  - to create
    a "win win" outcome.  Help your fellow employee - don't hinder someone
    just because it is some stupid policy.   
    
    Let me put it this way - if Anderson Consulting came into Digital to
    provide this service (or anyone else)    they would go out of there
    way and not haggle about it.  
    
    
    

    The trashcan routine looks great! Too bad I'm limited to 10K blocks and
    have a hard enough time staying below my quota. :-(
    
    The idea of getting the tape and restoring it yourself is also good,
    but this isn't the GMA! Out here in the field, you can be thousands of
    miles away from the actual system. Last I heard, USHS01 (the base
    noters node, and also my node) had been physically moved to either
    Dallas or Chicago.(TFSO'd all the local IM&T folks). Kind of a hike
    from Houston just to mount a tape! :-(
    
    The theory is great, the implementation sucks.
    
    Harry
    

    Re.12
    	A Robin you ask!  A Robin was a VT1XX terminal with a pair of 5�"
    Floppy drives mounted on top and with an 8086 CPU (I think) inside.  We
    couldn't sell 'em, so many were used internally.  It was a sort of PC -
    ugly looking thing!
    				Malcolm.

>    	A Robin you ask!  A Robin was a VT1XX terminal with a pair of 5�"

    A.k.a. VT180, if my memory serves me right.
    
    ...petri
    

    
    Try looking at notes 1633 and 1679 for undelete utilities in notes
    conference METOO::SW_TOOLS_CATALOG
    
    Sorry, I do not know to make KP7 work!
    
    
    Max.
    

    ELGIN::RASOOLM or one of the moderator just needs to:
    
    SET NOTE/CONF=METOO::SW_TOOLS_CATALOG
    
    to get KP7 to be active

    Nasser,as usual,has the key elements of the problem cracked-I
    particularly like the scanning bit but WHO is going to authorise buying
    a printer these days?Not over here,for sure.
    
    Seriously though,I think we should trade off single file restoration on
    demand against allowing IM&T to rig ALLINONE to delete(after three
    days) ANY file which is READ and filed in READ or any file in
    OUTFILE.This seems a fair compromise of service against disc
    space-which is,after all,their key metric... 

    re: a couple back...
    don't give the Robin more than is due it...
    
    it had a Z80 microprocessor, 64K memory and ran only CP/M
    
    tony
    (who still has one (in working shape) in his cellar) 
    (along side four Rainbows)

re: .0

Does your group have a service level agreement with IM&T?  What does that say
about individual file restores.  Also, do you have any kind of client rep
within the IM&T group that you could push this through?

The scary part is this service might not be offered because operators no
longer know HOW to do individual file restores.  Even 5 years ago it was
getting to be a very chancy proposition that if i requested an individual
file restore (especially if it was to someplace other than its original
directory) that i'd get it done right.  It kinda makes you wonder why we
bother to do backups?
								- paul

    .30 It kinda makes you wonder why we bother to do backups?
    
    It kinda makes me wonder why we have a IM&T group!   They have the file
    on backup, they can help but choose not to help in lue of some
    'policy'.
    
    Now this is progress Digital IM&T!   I am still waiting for my
    response to my request for a restore of a file...
    
    

    .0:
    
�    Now, could someone explain to me how taking a sales person out of
�    productive time for a day while he/she recreate files accidentally
�    deleted saves money for *anyone*?
    
    I doubt that there's any such line item in their departmental budget as
    "time saved for users of our services" -- after all, those users are in
    different departments.
    
    Dick

    Well, it's just after 3PM CST, and my files have been restored.  To be
    fair, my 'local' IM&T support person was supportive through this, felt
    as bad about the policy as I did, and saw me through.  I think the
    folks in the trenches still have some compassion.

    Re .-1
    
    My suggestion is for you to send a mail message to an important sales
    manager in your chain of command as well as an important manager in
    IM&T. Praise the flexibility of the local IM&T person and point out
    how much time this has cost you due to the silly IM&T policies. Suggest
    that they rethink their policies.
    
    Dave

    OF course, a lot of IM&T folk will take this as an excuse for forcing
    the plebs into captive ALL-IN-1 accounts where they don't have the
    ability to scratch themselves let alone get into trouble.
    
    q
    

    	If they are by policy providing this low a level of service one
    wonders what other things they may be cutting back on. If they say they
    will only do a full disk restore in the event of a catastrophe, are
    they sure they can even do that? Everyone in the field can tell horror
    stories of one sort or another.
    
    	My favourite is the customer who had a head crash on his disk, with
    a couple of years work on it, and came to us asking if we could get any
    of the data off it. In the end it turned out that the manufaturing
    plant that made the drive were able to do rather special things, and
    recover most of the data, but of course the first question was "Don't
    you have a backup?".  The answer was "Yes, but about a year ago the
    operator discovered that if he typed a slightly different command from
    the one he was told to, the backup completed much quicker...".
    
    	I would hope that even if their level of service guarantee is only
    whole disk restorations, that they have random tests to ensure that
    they can do this correctly.

    Gee, this entire string is making me shudder.  What a golden
    opportunity for someone with (a) malicious bent, and (b) access to
    important on-line data.
    
    Just delete the occasional -- but crucial -- file in a database,
    development library, whatever.  Watch the fun while the affected people
    try to get the onsey-twosey files restored by a recalcitrant IM&T staff
    attempting to stand by their "policy" of no individual file restores.
    
    This almost belongs in RISKS-DIGEST.
    
    John