Conference 7.286::digital

    When applying for a mortage/refinance, many lenders require hard copies
    of three recent paystubs to verify employment and income.  Applying for
    a mortgage or refinance, as we all know, is already a giant pain in the
    a**.  Any procedure that requires me to ask and then wait for hard
    copies of pay stubs is unacceptable.

    I just got one of these.
    
    
    I voted for "A" AND for D (NON of the above) with a "bit" of text to D.
    
    I don't consider electornic "delivery" to be log in and pull.  I would
    think that they could at least use encrypted mail (I have been using
    AMAIL on some projects lately and it works well) or something so that
    "delivery" was really that.  I also pointed out that most don't have
    the luxury of local printers to get hard copy of delivered mail.
    
    This isn't much of a change, it should not be MUCH of a problem to any
    of the receiving employees, and it should save some cost center some
    real change (though I tend to wonder about the US mail saving anyoe
    much).
    
    BUT, to quote the MCI add, "yes that was really just a pin.".  Well
    all of the pins are starting to get real heavy.  How many pins does it
    take to break an employees back.
    
    \Bill
    

Here is a copy of what I sent to Payroll with my concerns

1) Thank you very much for not only informing us in advance of changes but 
for asking for input and ideas.

2) I like both options A and B but my concern is for those of us wage class 
2 employees who rely on and need those time cards attached to our checks.  As 
it is now - its like pulling teeth trying to find a blank timecard when they 
are needed, I can't imagine the problems due to holidays etc of waiting on 
the postal delivery for the pay stub with the time card.  And what about the 
electronic stub?  Where will the time cards be coming from now?

3) What about the thousands of Digital employees who don't have access to 
terminals to get their electronic pay stubs - or who don't even have access 
now to know whats going on and there is a "vote" being held that they don't 
even know about?

Basically my concern for me personally is - How do I get time cards?  And 
thinking on the Digital wide scale, what about the employees without access 
to terminals?

Thank you for this opportunity,
Joyce
    
    
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=
    Any comments or more information from the noting public reagrding the 
    time cards would be appreciated.
    
    Jt

    
    Essentially, I replied with the  same concerns as Joyce...we've never
    SEEN blank timecards here!
    
    Also, pay info should be mailed, not a log-and-pull operation requiring
    another PIN and additional work.
    
    Nice being asked, for a change, instead of just told.  Good work!

    My reply to CANON::IDEA ... only tell me about CHANGES.
    
Hi

My pay statement changes only a few times during the year.  I would
bet that many other people are in the same position.

I would urge that you consider the following three-pronged approach:

	1) For any week which is different from the previous week,
           send a first class mail letter on Tuesday of the week
           in which a change occurs

        2) Once a quarter (NOT once a year) send me a statement with
           all the lovely info currently in my paystub: accrued
           vacation time, insurance options, whether I have taken
           my choice holiday, etc, etc.  I need YTD totals at least
           4 times during the year.

        3) Allow me to get a 1st class mail statement on demand with a
           simple mechanism ... preferably as simple as sending an
           EMAIL message to CANON::PAY_STATEMENT with my badge number
           as the subject line.  You would then send 1st class MAIL
           to my home with a YTD statement.

Thanks for listening
        /john

> my concern is for those of us wage class 
> 2 employees who rely on and need those time cards attached to our checks. 

  Thanks for mentioning this. I just read the mail message on this and I sensed
that there was something missing in all of the proposals. Unless U.S. Payroll
tells us what they plan to do about timecards, we can't vote intelligently on
this. I can think of three possiblities: attach hardcopy blank timecards to
paychecks (not doable if electronic paycheck stubs are used), go to electronic
time cards (would cause problems for people who are not computer literate and/
or don't have easy access to terminals), or go back to the timecard blanks 
without pre-printed names and dates that we used before 1991(?). I think only 
the third option for timecards is acceptable. Having to bring in a hardcopy 
timecard blank from home every week would be a pain in the neck. Note that WC 4 
employees have to fill out time cards too, if they take any vacation or sick 
time.

> 3) What about the thousands of Digital employees who don't have access to 
> terminals to get their electronic pay stubs -

  Good point.

> or who don't even have access 
> now to know whats going on and there is a "vote" being held that they don't 
> even know about?

  Another good point. It sure looks like the people who would be most impacted
negatively by a changeover to electronic pay stubs have been "disenfranchised"
in this vote.
  I also don't like the fact that people who vote for A, B, or C can't make
comments. 
  I plan to vote for "A" because I think it is workable and far better than
"B". My only reservation is if it's really less expensive to send 30,000 or so
letters in the mail (at first class metered postage, which I don't have a
figure for off-hand) than to hand-deliver the paycheck stubs.
  I think "B" is unacceptable because:

1. Difficulty obtaining hardcopy paycheck stubs promptly (already mentioned).
2. The hassle of having to remember yet another PIN (we already have more than
we can remember) and logging into another system (which may be unreachable or
down) to get paycheck info. This will result in people not viewing their stubs
every week, and they won't detect errors promptly.
3. People who don't have office terminals will have yet another case of being
treated as second-class citizens.

  Other ideas? My first choice is to keep the system as it is, but apparently
this is not something we can vote for.

    
    
    	Maybe we will start filling out our time cards electronically..
    	You know, something like s VTX form which copies your manager.
    
    	There no reason why a terminal can not set up for this purpose, 
        and made available to employees without direct access to one.
    
    	Would doing away with paper time cards save the company time and
    	money also? 

>>  Other ideas? My first choice is to keep the system as it is, but apparently
this is not something we can vote for.



    I think this way also.  BUT, we do have option D to use to list this.
    I plan on doing this with A being my second choice.

    justme....jacqui

    p.s.  Hope they don't think of going to MONTHLY pay!!!

    I just got through reading this in my mail and am a little puzzled 
    as to what the problem they are trying to solve is.  I really don't 
    want to pick an option until I have a little more info.  My intuition
    doesn't comprehend how individual first class mailings could be more
    cost effective over distributing the payroll through your paysite.
    Does any one know what is so awfully "labor-intensive for
    U.S. Payroll and for all other employees involved in this distribution"
    about the current process ?
    
    Thanks,
    Sharon

It's a waste of money to distribute pay stubs to people who have direct deposit.
I have a big pile of unopened ones at home as I can't bring myself to throw them
out.  I'd rather have access to the information online.

Paul

    .11
    
    You're wrong. Pay varies from week to week because of taxes and
    other deductions. Granted, it may only be a few cents a week, but
    try to balance a check book without knowing this! I still want to 
    see what my net pay is per week.
    
    Others--
    
    What do you think of getting paid bi-weekly, still getting your
    check the way you get it now and also helping the corporation
    in reducing it's administrative and check stub publishing scheme
    from every week to every two weeks??
    
    

    RE. 12
    
    Please don't bring the bi-weekly or monthly issue into this
    string...its been discussed at great length in this conference before
    and it is a different issue than the actual statements/checks.  Though
    I do see your connection in - if they want to cut costs why not cut the
    frequency they are printed.
    
    RE: .11
    
    You must be a wage class 4 employee, your salary doesn't change week to
    week and you don't need a time card so you are one of the very few who
    these proposed changes will affect the least.  I understand your view -
    heck I hardly ever notice the difference in my weekly net pay - but I
    do need that silly time card each week.
    
    Like I said in my message to PAYROLL - my issue is minor -IMO, I need a
    time card and this could be resolved many ways - 1) be like a wage
    class 4 and only submit a card when my hourse deviate from 40 regular
    2) electronic time card or 3) phone in time card with a password or
    some such thing.
    
    But on a grander scale...as a whole, there are many employees without
    access to a terminal or even an idea how to access one.  Though the
    idea that an employee can pop onto a menu driven time card system on
    teh terminals I see in the lobbies could be a solution - the problem
    will be when they need to get a print out of their pay statements.
    
    I just hope the people making the final decision don't forget about us
    - the wage class 2s and the employees without terminals.
    
    Joyce

re .13:

>    You must be a wage class 4 employee, your salary doesn't change week to
>    week and you don't need a time card so you are one of the very few who
>    these proposed changes will affect the least.

Very few?  What's the breakdown of U.S. employees by wage class?

.11:

>    You're wrong. Pay varies from week to week because of taxes and
>    other deductions. Granted, it may only be a few cents a week, but
>    try to balance a check book without knowing this! I still want to 
>   see what my net pay is per week.
 
Simply change where your net pay goes.  I have a specific amount go into
checking each week, with the net going into savings (most people have it the
other way around).  So the checking amount is constant and the savings deposit
varies by a few cents.  Since I don't keep a current balance on the savings
account, the varying deductions don't bother me at all.

John

    RE: .13
    
    O.k. o.k. - wrong choice of words
    
    I hope I didn't start a major 'get your calculators out' rathole.
    
    My point is.....it looks like the majority of folks not impacted wil be
    wage class 4 - and no I don;t have the latest statistics :^}
    
    Jt

    I think a lot of people make the mistake of NOT reading and checking
    their paystub weekly when they get that envelope on Thursdays!  One
    never knows what one might find.  An example of this came about one
    week when printer went haywire and put someone's timecard with some-
    one else's paystub so that the timecard person could have gotten 
    all the info on another worker.  This was noticed by those individual's
    whose valuable time is now being factored into paycheck distribution
    (admin assist) and the checks were sent back to payroll to be fixed.
    One needs to keep accurate account of all the info printed so that 
    errors can be corrected in a timely manner.  What would you do if
    your paystub was sitting around and you didn't find out that something
    was wrong until you ran up oodles of overdrawn charges?  What would
    you do if you put in for vacation time and you ended up with NO PAY
    'cause your vacation account said ZERO or next to it?  We, human 
    beans, are the final determiners of making sure what is due us is 
    correct weekly in the paycheck field!

    justme....jacqui

I'm already on option 'A' I get my payroll statment mailed to my home.
As I'm A remote MCS engineer in the BOONDOCKs of the Midwest. My statement 
Usualy arrives on Friday sometimes on Saturday and occasionly it dosen't
arrive untill Monday. Because of Stand-by and overtime my net pay varies
from week to week so if i need to know the exact ammount of my pay check/deposit
I'll just use DCUs easy touch to get the amount of deposit. I could also use
PAYEE PHONE or what ever they call it to get the amount of net pay.

I've been on the direct deposit for over 20 years, since it was day one when
it was started. and can't understand why anyone would not want direct deposit.
 

    RE .18
    >>. and can't understand why anyone would not want direct deposit.
    
    Well me neither but - to direct deposit or to not direct deposit is not
    the issue here - the issue is with the pay statement - weather its just
    a "dummy check" or a live check doesn't matter.  Its - how does Digital
    get the details out to the people in the most effective way (with
    convience and cost the issue)
    
    Jt

    This is my reply to them...
    
    Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 14:14:21 -0500
    From: glaser (Steve Glaser)
    To: erlang::canon::home, erlang::canon::idea
    Cc: glaser
    Subject: Pay Delivery
    
    I'm copying this to both addresses since you indicated that you don't
    read the messages to the HOME address.
    
    I am strongly against yet another PIN based system at Digital.  There
    are altogether too many such systems run by different organizations
    with different schemes for dealing with the "I forgot my PIN problem".
    
    Systems that I know about include: ELF, SAVE, Stock Purchase,
    Literature Ordering System, PAK system, Dial, CEO, APPIX, Voice Mail
    (not to mention the byzantine rules for the various computers, ATM
    machines, etc. that I use).
    
    I would be willing to accept a more limited home delivery scheme where
    (1) you delivered something on a less than weekly schedule (e.g. every
    month or so -- perhaps even every quarter) and (2) you deliver
    something every time anything "significant" changes (e.g. bonus or
    raise, altered deductions, hit the Social Security Limits, stock
    purchase BUY that causes the numbers to change, loan paid off, etc.).
    
    This could be coupled with a touch-tone system (no password needed)
    that would ask for an additional statement to be mailed ASAP to my home
    address.
    
    There might be an option on the Touch-Tone system to ask for some sort
    of "certified" statement (e.g.  notarized, or the ilk).  That might be
    useful for the "prove to the mortgage company that I make what I do"
    kind of situations.  I don't know what's usually involved in that
    process or if it's enough of a burden for you folk to be worth fixing,
    but it's a thought.
    
    For those that still get paper checks, you might consider centralizing
    the distribution, at least for larger sites (e.g. pick up you check
    from security or something).  The additional hassle might encourage
    folks to switch to direct deposit.
    
    
    ------------
    Steve Glaser				Digital Equipment Corporation
    [email protected] (or DSMAIL::GLASER)	550 King Street	LKG1-2/E10
    +1.508.486.7212  FAX: +1.508.486.5279	Littleton, MA 01460-1289
    

	Re. frequency of pay

	Wasn't it only recently that Payroll, after mucho research and 
	committee work, decided to make the pay bi-weekly, sent out many 
	memos to prepare us for the change, and at the last moment
	canncelled the whole thing? I never saw any explanation for that. 

	We must be one of the few large companies that pays weekly and
	wastes time and resources.

	-amitabh (who'd rather be entering only one pay entry in the 
	checkbook per month than 4-5). 

	

Here's what I just sent to CANON::IDEA:

Sirs,
        I feel that you have insufficiently motivated your proposal.  I find it
hard to believe that the US mail method is sufficiently more cost effective on
the production side to justify the change.  I would assume that the most labor
intensive part of the distribution is the filling of the individual mail slots.
Although this may save perhaps a hour or so of many a secretary's Thursday
morning, it is hard to understand how this will translate to much visible
corporate financial benefit.

        I can believe that the electronic method will be much cheaper on both
the production and distribution side, in the long run, but how much?  But moving
to an electronic media means that a host of problems such as assured delivery
(what if the power goes out that day?), data security (how do I know my paystub
isn't being read by someone who isn't supposed to see it?), and authentication
(how do I know that a particular electronic paystub is genuine?) need
addressing, and you give no assurance that these issues have been thought out
ahead of time.  How much is dealing with these issues going to cost?  It is
difficult for me to have sufficient confidence to vote for such a method when I
see no attention being paid to these details.

        I also chafe at responding to a survey that gives no option for "No
Change".  I realize that the corporation needs to save money, and I have no
particular axe to grind, but really, please have some respect for our
intelligence.
                -Kevin Harris

    My question is this:  "What problem is payroll trying to solve?"  As I
    understand it, Digital's US payroll process was (is) considered as a
    "best-in-class" operation.  Several years ago it was operating at 5.8
    Sigma - 6 Sigma equates to 3.4 defects per million.  So, I'm assuming
    that they discovered that although their processing defects are few,
    their operating costs are high!  I guess?
    
    Personally, the weekly pay receipt for me is a waste.  I have direct
    deposit.  What I would like to see is a monthly paycheck receipt
    indicating a weekly breakdown of deposits, taxes, etc...  If that's not
    done, then I would be receptive to receiving electronic mail receipts
    (hey, we have to change this antiquated process sooner or later).
    
    The questions that need to be asked to US Payroll are:
    
      *  What's the purpose of paycheck receipts?
      *  How do the users "use" them?
      *  How often do they use them ?
      *  What if they were eliminated entirely?
    
    Yeah, they're basic questions but they need to be asked to see what
    assumptions (conscious or unconscious) are driving the current
    operation?  The answers will either confirm that the old process stays
    or it changes.
    
    Mailing out weekly paychecks/paycheck receipts seems rather costly.  I
    don't get that one! 

    I'd be willing to bet that our payroll is printed in alpha order 1st by
    direct deposit and then by live check, or at best by facility code 1st
    by DD and then LC.  Each of these items are then packaged up in FED-X
    overnite pkgs to each location.  Then there's the costs of distribution
    within the facility.  Just my guess...
    
    re. Bi-monthly or monthly.... I wouldn't have a problem with either
    other than with the transition.  For bi-monthly, (for instance) you get
    paid on the 1st for one weeks pay the previous week, then, in order for 
    your "holdback" to match, (2 weeks), you won't get a check for 3 weeks. 
    I'm a single mom with 2 kids and would have a hard time surviving on 1
    weeks pay for 3 weeks....  Same scenario for Monthly, however, you
    wouldn't get paid for 7 weeks (as best I can guess).
    
    But, again, that's not really the discussion here....  I have DD and am
    wage class 4 so it really doesn't impact me; however, I requested the
    ability to have hardcopy mailed "upon request" and electronic
    notification.
    
    Toodles.....JP

I wonder, are there any legal requirements concerning pay stubs?  I'd hate to
have another bi-weekly pay fiasco.

Bob

The preceding arguments regarding costs have overlooked one important saving.
The payroll data is already in electronic format so to keep it that way in
its dispersal to you, we save money.  At least we save money on paper.

It seems absurd to use the argument of having a time-card requirement in this
age.  Just look at how we are communicating at this moment.  You really need
a piece of paper to track your hours?  Hello, ... this is 1994 calling ...

How many of you have used one of the EXPENSE programs for your reporting?  Heck,
it even prints the forms for you!  Cost of printing?  How about the time I save
in not having to fill one of those things in by hand.  I may not be costing
the corporation big bucks by yaking a few minutes but I AM causing a lost
opportunity cost for not doing something else...

Watch the pennies and the dollars watch themselves.

Chuck

    To the author of .22, you are right on.  I fail to understand how
    mailing statements to my home can cost less than distributing mine and
    hundreds of others at my location. 
    
    Preference #1.  No change
    
    Preference #2. Mail the statement to my house.
    
    I don't see how Payroll can seriously consider electronic notification. 
    1) As stated by others, not everyone has a terminal.  2) Certainly not
    everyone has a printer.  Consider this.  I print my statement down at
    the LPS40, a hundred or two hundred feet away from my desk.  I find
    person or persons looking at my pay stub, which has not only my pay but
    personal information, like social security number, 401K deductions,
    stock plan deductions, and medical and insurance deductions.  Can you
    imagine the flak that managers are going to have to deal with when they
    start hearing compliants about so-and-so's salary.  (Hey, I never heard a
    manager say...yea, feel free to let everyone know how much you make,
    and make sure you ask everyone also what they make while your at it.)
    
    I have not seen an option that improves upon the existing process.  As
    almost everyone else preceding this reply has stated, what problem are
    we trying to fix?  By the way, I agree, the frequency of EFT payments
    is not the topic. 
    
    Bob
    
    
    Bob

Why not let each employee choose the method by which they receive this
information?  It's obvious that one method is not best for everyone.

Paul

    IF WE CANT EVEN AFFORD TO GIVE PAYCHECKS OUT ANYMORE,ITS TIME TO CALL
    IT A DAY.THE DIGITAL DIFFERENCE STRIKES AGAIN

    I can remember when my pay use to come in a little brown envelope.  
    

If it will save the company money, mail me my pay stub. I'm on Wage Class 4
with Direct Deposit and enjoy receiving and opening my pay stub each week.
And if the mailing is late there is always the PAYEE phone service.

If all of you want proof of how much its going to save Digital and are going to 
brow-beat the Payroll people who so graciously asked us for our opinion before 
making a stupid decision, you can bet we won't get asked our opinion too many 
more times...

Let's trust the people in Payroll to make the right decision based on the 
savings involved AND the suggestions of the masses.

Jim

    i just like to also add my voice on this and say that i support the 
    people in the payroll department in whatever decision they reach.

    long live the people in the payroll department.

    \nasser

    
     I currently work at LKG in the Network Operations Center. Every four
    week we go in call using beepers. Not having time cards would cause
    some problems. Seeing we start the on call on a Monday and it runs till
    the following Monday it actualy takes two time cards to account for
    our time.. With no pay stub and time card for next week I see that
    there may be problems..
    
    I do like the idea of being asked for input. I wish other questions
    in dealing with DEC "sorry" Digital policy would take this same
    approch.
    
           Andy

    My this has generated lots of conversation.  I haven't read all the
    replies yet, but my first question is: those of you wage class 2
    employees who are responding to this - did you receive an on-line
    questionnaire or are you responding to the basenote.
    
    If we are truly looking to save time and money, this process should go
    hand-in-hand with on-line timecards.  This is where the real savings
    can be.  Figure how much time does an administrator spend chasing people's
    timecards, getting signatures, making copies, carrying them to payroll,
    and starting all over again.  Especially since all sick time must now
    be reported via timecard.
    
    -sandy
    

        Well, I did respond with an A+D answer as before.   In a nutshell,
    I asked directly what savings were to be seen using the US Mail option
    (the only one I find marginally acceptable).  I also had a few other
    comments, which I will (for the time being) decline to post.

    One comment, about electronic pulling, that I made did have to do with
    how much off loading of centralized function is going to be done to the
    individual employee.   I know this moves impact out of some cost
    centers, but what about the 5 minutes taken by each of the interested
    (all?) employees to log in to the secure delivery system and pull their
    information.  The employee is being 5 minuted to death with these
    "little" changes  e.g.

    		1) (Possibly) logging in and getting pay information on
    		   some regular basis.

    		2) The floor copier count has been cut in half here (ZKO)
    		   and many folks must now cross the building to use one.
                   (I know that we have "support" folks to do this, but
    		    they were pretty flat out with the secretary/engineer
    		    ratio here before this even started).

    		3) There is only one mail/shipping receiving area, now at
    		   far end of the facility from me.  (+15 minutes if I have
    		   reason to go there).

    		and for others the list probably goes on.

    It seems that in some "cost saving" measures, that at least some of the
    cost becomes distributed further out, and enables a particular central
    cost center to look like there is "savings". 

    I have finally started getting my budget in order thanks to a PC and
    Quicken.   I sit down Thursday evening, pay stub in hand, enter it and
    then mail most of it out to pay bills (I wish it was Bill's, but not
    yet anyhow).  The last digit of my weekly stub varies from 5 to 7
    because of the "right-witholding" of FICA, Federal income tax and
    Medicare.  This organized approach to my finances would get a little
    whacked out if I "might" receive a pay stub sometime between Wednesday
    and Monday, but it could be lived with.   I suppose I could live with
    Monthly stub with item lines for each check also, but correcting minor
    nits can get to be a pain if you are using an accounting system. 

    I hadn't even considered the time card issue, since I only use those
    for Vacation, Personal days and Sick Days.  Looking at that issue for
    WC2, and the thoughts around Electronic filing of time cards, I do
    believe there IS a legal problem.   For non exempt people, I believe
    there is a Federal auditing requirement requiring a SIGNED time card
    from the employee stating their hours.  I expect this was put in years
    ago to "protect" us from something like companies trying to cook the
    books by saying they paid for more employee hours than they really did.

    I would put forth a couple of ideas though:

    	1) I would find a lighter weight pay report acceptable since I
    	   don't need something with the toughness of a check.  I would
    	   think this could drastically reduce the weight and paper costs
    	   involved (bulk mailings are based on total weight, not weight
    	   per item).

    	2) Having batches of time cards sent out, or even using blank time
    	   cards (probably I actually prefer this option) would work fine.	

    	3) Don't print the fake check, in fact eliminate it from the direct
    	   deposit stubs.   This would probably save a lot of paper and
    	   potential cost even if it meant two kinds of forms (one with
    	   checks, one without).

    Assuming 60K US based employees, it would cost only 18K per week to
    mail the pay cheques/stubs at home. The current method probably costs
    10+ times more for distribution, pickup, secretaries time etc.
    
    I opted for A. 
    
    - Rajesh
    
    

    
    Personally I don't care what they do, AS LONG AS it is not an automated
    system.  For example, try figuring out how to get a question answered
    when you want to talk to someone in Investor's Services or wade your
    way through VTX menus.  The ones I have seen are poorly implemented
    with little thought to what the user needs and there are just too many
    interfaces.  I am NOT willing to learn another one.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    re .34
    
    Received mail.

RE: . 26
    
>>It seems absurd to use the argument of having a time-card requirement in this
>>age. 
    
    Why is it absurd?  As long as Digital REQUIRES ME TO SUBMIT A TIME CARD
    IN ORDER TO GET MY *EARNED* PAY it is not absurd to me or the thousands
    of other wage class 2 employees to use this as an example in an
    arguement.
    
   >>  Just look at how we are communicating at this moment.  You really need
>>a piece of paper to track your hours?  Hello, ... this is 1994 calling ...

    Hello..., Nobody ever said "We Want to fill out weekly paper cards, get
    signatures, make copies etc....."
    
>>How many of you have used one of the EXPENSE programs for your reporting? 
    
    Nobody in my group of 15 or so and I make an average of 4 trip
    arrangements a month.
    
    If the company says no more paper time cards are needed in conjuction
    with the electronic system fine - or if blank cards are available for
    us to fill out and the rest is electronic I guess fine too.  My point -
    or "argument" is  At this time the procedure for turning in "hours
    worked" is not condusive to the proposed changes.
    
    I'm all for saving money - or time or even just changing this to make
    improvements and upgrades....but I also don't want my self or otehr
    employees to get lost in the shuffle.
    
    And to the other noter who asked 'how did you hear about this
    proposal?" I recieved a mail message via Reader's Choice in my
    All-In-One account.
    
    Joyce

  The idea of an electronic time card scares me. As someone mentioned a few
replies back, there is probably a federal or state requirement that time cards
be signed, and as far as I know most governments don't accept electronic
"signatures".
  How did U.S. Payroll come to the conclusion that mailing paycheck stubs to
people's homes is less expensive than the present method? I assume they did a
cost analysis of both methods. They should have made this cost analysis (one
to three terminal pages) available to employees. I do appreciate the fact that
U.S. Payroll is trying to factor in hidden costs, such as the labor of secre-
taries handing out paycheck stubs by hand, in the total cost of the current
method. 
  I agree with a previous reply on two (of many) reasons why electronic pay
stubs are not acceptable: privacy would be lost whenever people get printouts
(few people have printers in their offices) and the employee time required for
viewing and printing (compared to hardcopy pay stubs received at home or office)
has probably not been factored into the cost analysis. I also have basic dis-
trust of accessing remote systems over the network for various things. I have
had too many experiences where I could not perform necessary functions, or had
to put them off and risk forgetting them, because the remote system was down,
not reachable via the network, or running unbearably slow.

From:	VCSESU::BRANAM       "Steve, Network Prod Supp, DTN 247-3027, TWO1/A9 (Pole C5)" 23-FEB-1994 12:22:17.68
To:	CANON::IDEA
CC:	BRANAM
Subj:	RE: #5212-Pay Distribution

I think an electronic notification of EFT paychecks is a great idea! I would 
take it one step further if you have not already considered this: allow for 
notification via outside e-mail systems. For example, I have an account on 
America Online that I access from my home computer. I can send e-mail from my 
VAX account at work to my e-mail address on America Online via the Internet. 
Thus, if I received VAX mail notification of a payroll deposit, I would simply 
forward the message to my America Online account, then receive the message at 
home where I would update my Quicken home finance program, making the entire 
process totally paperless. And if the notification message was formatted 
appropriately (perhaps an employee-selected option), I could load the message 
directly into other software, such as a spreadsheet or database, to do even more 
detailed line item tracking (right now, I only enter the net deposit amount into 
my finance program, I don't track witholding items each week).

The ability for many Digital employees to manually forward any payroll messages 
to outside e-mail networks already exists. If a large number of people chose to 
do this, the payroll system might be able to optimize use of Digital mail and 
network resources by automatically sending some messages directly to the outside 
systems, eliminating the need to send them within Digital where possible. This 
could be achieved very simply by allowing employees to specify *any* e-mail 
address for their payroll notification. For example, rather than specifying 
VCSESU::BRANAM as my payroll mail address, I would specify 
DECWRL::"[email protected]", which would forward the message through Digital's 
Internet gateway to my account on America Online. The gateway might need to be 
prepared to handle thousands of such message every payday as the many (how 
many???) employees who are connected to outside systems receive their 
notifications.

While some people might be concerned about the security and confidentiality of 
payroll notifications distributed over the Internet (or via other outside 
networks), it could probably be argued that it would be no less secure than the 
current system. Anyone can pick up a pay stub left on a desk, in a briefcase, or 
even in a home mailbox. For any employees who still felt uncomfortable with 
this, the option of sending notifications only within Digital would still exist; 
there are probably many people who would be paranoid about having their personal 
finance information transmitted over a government-sponsored network. As an 
additional security alternative, payroll mail messages could be encrypted (where 
permitted by local, national, and international regulation). PC, VAX, and 
Macintosh decryption programs could then be distributed electronically, although 
this would require additional administrative and processing overhead.

I think this provides a great opportunity for Digital to pioneer options for 
online payroll distribution. The savings in paper and human labor can be 
tremendous over a year's time. I certainly expect this to be the wave of the 
future.

Regards,
Steve Branam

    I was curious about where the message was received because my manager
    received a copy, but I have not yet.
    
    Bulk mail can be sent at reduced rates.  It probably would not cost
    $18K for the postage.  I believe even first class can be bulk mailed
    for a lesser amount - it just has to be sorted by zip code (there's
    some cost cutting - your not paying for someone else to sort).
    
    -sandy
    

    
    1.  my pay changes from week to week
    
    2.  My pay has been wrong meny times
    
    3.  On occiasion I have had Digital delete my dental or my Dep Dental
    
    4.  On occiasion I have had Digital delete my medical
    
    5.  Once I had Digital only charge me for 1 medical coverage
        while I had 2 all along
    
    6.  Digital has changed my SS# twice
    
    There are just a few good reason I have for wanting my paystub in
    my hand.  I check it ever thursday for errors.  I have known alot
    of people who just toss the stub in the desk draw.. I've brought
    to their attention that DEC has made meny erros and to check there
    stub... they did...and gues what....they found errors!
    
    lkp

    
    RE: -1
    
    	Your right bulk mail sorted by zip code is cheaper, something like
    23.5� per letter for first class.  However each zip code area has to be
    seperately bagged and then delivered to the post office.  The post
    office does not pick up bulk rate mail.  The $3,000 savings would
    probally be eaten up in internal labor costs.  Business rate would
    probally be the best way to go but then you loose the first class
    delivery schedule.  
    
    Ken
    

here's another vote for hardcopy pay statements.

I have been paying my child support for years via payroll deduction. I recently 
had an ugly incident where the state decided that I had stopped paying and
was ready to seize every personal asset of mine until I paid up. Fortunately
my pay stubs still showing the weekly deduction made the state realize it was 
their screw-up, not mine. 

I feel pretty certain in saying that I'd still be fighting the issue if it were 
not for an "official" Digital pay statement. As soon as they saw that, they 
backed right off. I'm not sure I'd have had the same luck if all I had was some 
random payroll numbers printed off on someone's LA75.

    This is probably a rathole, but don't bash the US Post Office and tout
    the Interoffice as the pancea...I have many remote sales, and a few in
    particular who reside in remote Digital offices ask me to mail hard
    copies of anything they need NOT thru the interoffice but the US Post
    Office.

I get a live paycheck.  I want to keep getting a live paycheck in the same
timely manner that I get it now.  This means that I'll accept any mechanism
that gets me my check by noon on Thursdays.  If that means that my secretary
delivers it to my cube, as she does now, fine.  If that means that it can be
guaranteed to be in Wednesday afternoon's mail, fine.

Any delay in getting me my check by noon on Thursdays is simply unacceptable.

BobW

    To answer the question about the method of getting the original
    copy that was put in .0, I didn't receive one directly.  This
    was sent DIRECTLY to someone within the org that I work.  I sent
    it around and then decided to put it into this notesfile.  When
    the activity started in here, funny thing happened...I got a copy
    with the TO:  saying Distribution.  The listing was attached at
    the bottom with the usual alpha listing for my building/site.  I
    wonder what caused the decision to let more people in on the process?
    Would only a select few have received this if others hadn't taken
    the time to give it fresh air to breathe?

    justme....jacqui

    The following is the mail message I sent to canon::pay_questions
    pointing out flaw in their calculations. They have done this before
    when they 'forgot' to pay me one week (the transitional week when I
    came back from short term disability). Later on they paid me for that
    week, deducted ALL the other deductions like LTD, SAVE etc. but
    conviniently didn't pay me for 'OPT-OUT' and didn't add the 'vacation
    accrual' hours. How come no one ever got any extras from them (mistakes
    usually benefit or provide a loss to both parties and is not oneway)?
    
    My vote is for getting the paystub - I don't care whether its at work or
    home but it should be there on time.
    
I would like to complain about the vacation hours calculated in my latest
pay stub (issue date 2/24/94). 

I have maxed out on my vacation accrual time i.e. 240 hours. Early last week I 
submitted a time card for 2 vacation days i.e. 16 hours. This week those 16 
hours are deducted from my available vacation time. However, it seems that there
was no vacation accrual (I believe its 2.307 hrs/week in my case.

Basically your method of calculation has a flaw in it. It should have deducted
the 16 hrs. first, bringing my total to 224 Hrs. and THEN add accrual of 2.307
hours for that week. Your method is exactly the opposite of what it should be -
you first tried to add 2.307 hrs but since I had maxed out at 240, you didn't
add anything so I lost those 2.307 hrs. Then you deducted the full 16 hrs. of
the vacation time I had put in.

Why don't you change the system to calculate the DELTA first i.e.
to a base of zero, add accrual hours, then deduct vacation hours and then
add/subtract the net to the available hours carried forward from the last week 
so that a gross mistake like this is not repeated.

Since I have been touching my max. hours frequently and then taking a day off
occasionally to created a deficit, I could have been a victim of this flawed
method number of times. 

I would like you to take proper actions on the above matter and adjust
my hours and inform me about what fix you have applied.

sincerely,

- Rajesh Desai

p.s. I am sending a copy of this to my manager and will also put 
     a note in the DIGITAL notes file regarding this matter.

    Has anyone had any success finding an author of this survey?  I have
    been trying to reach a human being to ask some questions and cannot
    get beyond electronic no-name accounts.  The payroll number is one
    of those black-box voice mails, with no individual names being made
    available.  I have sent several queries to the no-name electronic
    accounts asking if any one is out there but have had no response.
    For those who think it is nice that payroll is asking these questions,
    don't you think it would be even nicer if there were actual employees
    accountable for it?
    
    

***********************MADE UP  ASSOCIATED PRESS RELEASE *****************

Digital's board of directors voted to give all Digital employees a
10% across the board raise, for all the hassles they have gone through 
in the last 3 -4 years. News of this leaked out and was posted on one
of their internal notes files. After one days discussion, over 1000 
replies were posted to the note. The majority expressed the opinion
that once again Digital was out to screw them. Some wanted 20%, others
said it was managements way to lull them to sleep so they would 
eventually get a 35% pay cut. The board promptly dropped all thoughts of 
the pay raise.

    I've been getting my checkstubs mailed to my house for several years.
    No problems. They come on Thursdays most weeks, an occasional Friday
    and very rarely on Saturday. I don't sweat it though. I've got direct
    deposit and never wipe my checking account out to the point that
    missing a check would bounce the mortgage!
    
    Harry
    

    >Assuming 60K US based employees, it would cost only 18K per week to
    >mail the pay cheques/stubs at home. The current method probably
    >costs 10+ times more for distribution, pickup, secretaries time etc.
    
    If they can send First Class mail to my home address, then they could
    just as easily send it to my work address.  And the tail end of the
    distribution process has a marginal cost of ZERO.  DEC couriers will 
    continue to move internal mail, and the secretaries will continue to 
    sort and distribute mail.  One extra item a week isn't going to be
    felt.
    
    If First Class mail distribution really is cheaper, then why don't they
    just mail everyone's pay stubs to their work address, thus duplicating
    the existing system?
    
    -andy

	... throw them in the "personal mail" bin, and it might get delivered 
a month or so later! :>)

    	I know someone earlier said not to suggest monthly payment, but why
    not? Most people in Europe are paid monthly, and by bank transfer. Once
    per month the local DEC subsidiary delivers a magtape to their bank,
    and after that everything is computerised.
    
    	I can make electronic enquiries of the bank to check that the
    payment has been made. In fact, I get a monthly statement from DEC, but
    don't really need it - unless you are asking for credit the yearly
    statement is quite sufficient.

    RE: .55 Before I tell you why not, have you read all of 1352 yet?
    
    			Alfred

    	My apologies. I only started looking at this conference a short
    time ago. I think 1352.last was the only reply entered since I have
    been reading, and it seems to say that the conditions for WC4 workers
    are in principle the same in the U.S. and Britain. Since it wasn't
    contradicted I assumed that was the end of the argument.

��<<< Note 2911.41 by VCSESU::BRANAM "Steve, Network Product Support, TWO/A9 DTN 247-3027" >>>
��                  -< Since I already have direct deposit... >-

��From:	VCSESU::BRANAM       "Steve, Network Prod Supp, DTN 247-3027, TWO1/A9 (Pole C5)" 23-FEB-1994 12:22:17.68
��To:	CANON::IDEA
��CC:	BRANAM
��Subj:	RE: #5212-Pay Distribution

��I think an electronic notification of EFT paychecks is a great idea! I would 
��take it one step further if you have not already considered this: allow for 
��notification via outside e-mail systems. For example, I have an account on 
��America Online that I access from my home computer. I can send e-mail from my 
��VAX account at work to my e-mail address on America Online via the Internet. 
��Thus, if I received VAX mail notification of a payroll deposit, I would simply 
��forward the message to my America Online account, then receive the message at 
��home where I would update my Quicken home finance program, making the entire 
��process totally paperless. And if the notification message was formatted 
    This is a hell of an idea.  Send payroll information through
    Digital's electronic mail system!  That giant sucking sound
    Ross Perot mentioned will be the sound of thousands of lan
    protocol analyzers firing up.  Anything that has a
    promiscious mode can't be all bad!  

    So, once your pay stuff had been throughly sniffed on the
    ethernet, you want to mail it through the internet, where
    anyone  at any of the routing sites can look at the data
    too!  
    	"Hey Frank, stop working on that virus for a minute,
    	Digital's� payroll is coming by..."

    Too cool!  Let me know when it starts!


    	�True hackers shun political correctness, and would have
    	 used DEC

re: .55
    
    To pik a nit here
    
     >>I know someone earlier said not to suggest monthly payment, but why
    >>not?
    
    I never said not to suggest monthly payments...what I said was - that
    was discussed before at great length in another topic and I asked that
    you keep this topic to the method not the frequency.
    
    Thanks for the pointer Alfred
        
    Jt

re: .58

That could *NEVER* happen! We have a *policy* against it! And there may
be a *LAW* against it elsewhere!

So don't worry... those policies and laws will keep your pay info safe!!

Lee

Ah, but we could use Clipper to encrypt the pay info, then it would be safe
on the Internet at least til the receivig machine get's it.

Oh, yes, but Treasury is one of the "safe" keepers of the generic keys.
(NIST is the other), si it wouldn't necessarilly be safe from Treasury.

Security is a BIG problem with electronic information. Since
whoever is making the decision might not care about MY pay info
becoming public, I'll point out that this applies to theirs, and to
their bosses' and up to at least VP level.
As to who said that paper stubs aren't secure, I answer that if my
stub is opened, I can tell that it has been opened. If someone
captures my pay info on a sniffer or workstation, I don't know. (or
if someone captures a VP'S pay, he won't know.)

Pay info would have to be encrypted. I'd accept Clipper for that
(but not for general use, but that is another rathole) because the
IRS gets the same data later. There are probably laws covering
payroll data privacy, and sending data unencrypted is NOT secure at
all.

��     <<< Note 2911.61 by STAR::PARKE "True Engineers Combat Obfuscation" >>>
��                -< Well, the gumment will save us with Clipper >-

��Ah, but we could use Clipper to encrypt the pay info, then it would be safe
��on the Internet at least til the receivig machine get's it.

    Um, sure.  You could encrypt the payroll data.  

    But, some of the managers I've had in the past couldn't find
    their butts in a phone booth.  They needed administrative
    help to find the enter key when it's labeled 'return'.

    Apply a decryption key to a mail message?  Should be no
    problem for them.

    >Pay info would have to be encrypted. I'd accept Clipper for that
    >(but not for general use, but that is another rathole) because the
    >IRS gets the same data later. There are probably laws covering
    >payroll data privacy, and sending data unencrypted is NOT secure at
    >all.
    
    Presuming that Clipper techniques are invisible to the user, why
    wouldn't you accept it for general use? It's supposed to be better than
    DES and that's about the extent of any commercial encryption package
    that I'm aware of. The only significant thing I see about Clipper is
    that only "certain" people might get access to your data as compared to
    someone say figuring out Tanya Harding's password and reading her
    email.
    
    Even at this, Clipper requires the user to have some device with the
    chip itself accessable to their system. There is nothing though to
    prevent those wanting more security to implement their own scheme on
    top of Clipper (i.e., encrypt encrypted data).

    	This is a complete sidetrack, but there is no proof that Clipper is
    any better than DES, because the U.S. government will not publish the
    detailed specifications for Clipper.
    
    	DES itself is a crippled version of Lucifer. The original design
    used 128 bit keys, but the U.S. government insisted that this be
    reduced to 56 bits for DES, though they kept the same structure for the
    encryption algorithm. The DES algorithm is public, and anyone could
    extend it back to using 128 bit keys if they wanted to.
    
    	As yet a further rathole, I am told that in the U.K. encryption
    algorithms are restricted to 56 bits. This permits DES, but would not
    permit Clipper since that uses 80 bits (not that this guarantees that
    it is more secure). So to talk encrypted to someone in the U.K. it
    would not be permitted to use Clipper.

With paycheck stubs lying around on or in people's desks, I can't imagine
electronic distribution of pay information being *less* secure than the current
method.

Paul

**********
With paycheck stubs lying around on or in people's desks, I can't imagine
electronic distribution of pay information being *less* secure than the current
method.
************


    BUT, the above is either by choice or mistake of the individual!
    Electronic peeping cannot be controlled by the individual.  I 
    have an opened paystub in my desk right now that I found when 
    cleanning out a departed employee for another assignment.  I am
    still wondering whether to just blackbox it or to give it to the
    individual.  I also happen to know that other employees just dump
    their opened paystubs into their unsecure desk drawers.  That is
    THEIR choice.  

    BTW...I like a REAL paystub to see if Payroll has glitched in any
    way.  I do direct deposit, etc.  Either getting at work or at home
    on THURSDAYS would be fine.  That would mean that the US Postal 
    Service would have to guarantee delivery.  Payroll does guarantee
    Thursday delivery on-site.  

    justme....jacqui

>  <<< Note 2911.58 by LEEL::LINDQUIST >>>

>   This is a hell of an idea.  Send payroll information through
>   Digital's electronic mail system!  

I'm betting that payroll information is already sent through
the LAN:

  * Manager's get the report that shows the ranking of their
    employees within each Job Code -- I think it's called
    time-in-grade info.

  * Personnel looks up information in the personnel system.

  * Employees get letters that tell them their pay after
    a promotion.

  * Probably alot more reports and documents I haven't seen
    -- not being a manager.

'Leaked/peeked' information within DEC is one matter... some of the
earlier replies would have had the info going outside of DEC via a
network... thus the concern.

Lee

    From a read only Digit,
    
    I hope they don't choose electronic delivery.  I currently recieve mail
    for 2 other employees with my name, even though they are at different
    sites, and the mail is addressed correctly (a1 mail).
    
    Robert Johnson @ alf   

    re -.1
    
    Your ELF entry gives little detail:
    
    Common Name:   ROBERT JOHNSON
    Search Surname:  JOHNSON  Search Given Name:  ROBERT,  ROBERT ERIC
    DTN:  343-1334  Intrnl Mail Addr:  ALF1-3/O20  Location:  ALF
    Org Unit:  US DIGITAL SERVICES-MCS
    
    Add your node, position, some other info differentiating you from all
    the other Robert Johnsons, you'll get less misdirected mail AND those
    who REALLY need to find you can.  Right now, if I tried to find you
    not knowing via this note that you're at ALF, it would be hopeless.
    
    					Brent

The electronic notification of stock sale did not work for me.  My wife got her
eletronic notification.  Mine, well a week or so after the wife got her's I had
her send mail to the people she recieved the mail from,  Two weeks later we
recieved mail saying "it was deposted into his account....".

Why didn't I get the mail?  Well I guess the system did not take into account
the failure of sending mail to a site that has two people with the same
first/last name. 

Brian J. McCarthy (not Brian S. McCarthy)

    re .71
    
    My twins are Robert Johnson @ oro and Robert Johnson @ w??.
    I recieve their mail even though it is sent to them @ their location,
    it ISN'T addressed to me @ alf.  I try to forward their mail to them
    (Robert Johnson @ oro) and it just gets sent back to me.
    
    Regards,
    
    RJ

    
    Yah, but what I'm saying is to add definitive info to YOUR Elf entry. 
    There are about 20 Robert Johnsons.  If you're the only one that says:
    
    Robert "Dinky" Johnson, node: AIMTEC, position: Chief Bit-Twiddler,
    dept: Advanced Micro-Biotic Engineering Org: Mill moss-control,
    telephone: (900)555-1212
    
    and I'm looking for Robert Johnson in Payroll because I didn't get
    notification of stock sale (see how this all cleverly ties?) then, when
    I'm guessing which RJ to send mail to, I'll KNOW you're the wrong one.
    As it is, your entry and those of your twins have the least info.

    This problem used to occur when there were two or more people 
    served by the same message router hub.  The hub was deteremind by the
    mail code.  With ALF being Atlanta and ORO being Orlando, it is likely
    that both locations are routed through the same place.  Name lookup
    comes next.  First guy on the list gets all the mail that comes through
    the router.  VAXmail or local ALL-IN-1 addressing(within the same
    cluster, name only addressing) is the only way we used to have around
    it short of one of the duplicates changing there name or mail hub.
    
    Regards,
    Susan Kelley @LAO who has started getting US Mail for Susan Kelly @WMO
    for the first time since I left PKO.

    I'm not sure the net process is 100% foolproof, so I said yes
    to home & no to electronic.  I never received the electronic
    version of the FY93 annual report, even though I am a stockholder,
    got it the year before, etc., and it allegedly was sent & not
    bounced back.  
    
    Mark
    

    Question:
    	If it more cost effective to send the payroll stubs to the
    employee's home by US Mail, how come the Annual Pension Reports
    come via Interoffice Mail now, when they used to come by US Mail?
    
    					Marie
    

FYI: Suggestion to Pay Statement Design (Mailed to CANON::IDEA)
	
	Please consider the following Pay Statement redesign in conjunction with
	your new Pay Statement distribution process...
	Ever since the new Pay Statement format came out I can't figure out 
	why it wasn't designed as follows regarding the Message area in
	proximaty to the perforation line.

	The problem or my concern is...
	that the perforation line runs directly between the Current and YTD
	information lines making it subjectable to unintended tearing.

	Suggestion:
	Can the $ information section be shifted up above the perforation line
	and the message area be moved below the perforation line. This way the
	message area can be removed anf the portion of the record that I retain
	will be smaller.	

>      <<< Note 2911.18 by ANGLIN::SULLIVAN "Take this job and LOVE it" >>>
>
>                             -< I like option 'A' >-
>
>I'm already on option 'A' I get my payroll statment mailed to my home.
>As I'm A remote MCS engineer in the BOONDOCKs of the Midwest. My statement 
>Usualy arrives on Friday sometimes on Saturday and occasionly it dosen't
>arrive until Monday.

RE: above

I spoke too soon on this matter and didn't knock on wood.
My Check for 2/24/94 did not arive at my home until 3/10/94. The U.S. Postal
service must have lost it for 2 weeks. The envolope did not have any
extra cansolations on it or any indication that their was a problem
reading the address or zip code. it was just the normal clean envolope.

I sent mail to Payroll asking if a decision had been made yet, this is
the response I rec'd back - just an FYI.


From:	CANON::PAY_QUESTION "US PAYROLL CUSTOMER SERVICE" 10-MAR-1994 09:27:10.45
To:	EDSGRP::CLARK
CC:	PAY_QUESTION
Subj:	RE: re:  #5212-Pay Distribution


  **************************************************************************

  Thank you for your response. Employee feedback will be considered along 
  with the operational, business, and financial implications of each 
  alternative as part of the overall evaluation. 

  Findings and decisions coming out of this evaluation will be communicated 
  in late Q3 or early Q4. 

  U.S. News                                                   LIVE WIRE
  Pay information now available on Wednesdays ...             Date: 28-Apr-1994
 
 
               Pay information now available on Wednesdays

         According to U.S. Payroll, all U.S. employees can now access
   their pay information via PAYEEphone one day earlier -- on Wednesday
   morning instead of Thursday.
         The date of deposit and issuance of checks has not changed.
    Thursday is still payday.   But by providing earlier access to pay
   information, employees will have the opportunity to plan their
   finances and address any potential Payroll issues.
         To access PAYEEphone, dial DTN 223-5555 or (508) 493-5555.
   This system provides access to data through any Touch-Tone telephone.
   Employees need a personal security code to access the system.  To
   request one, call PAYEEphone and follow the simple instructions.
         Any questions may be directed to U.S. Payroll Customer Service
   at CANON::PAY_QUESTION or PAY_QUESTION @PKO.