Conference 7.286::digital

    Yes! I suppose that among the many critical issues to solve would be
    security if in fact the public were to get access to our databases. 
    But still, I think this is a timely idea--we become another resource on
    the great highway!
    Bruce

	I have wanted to see us in the Compuserve/Prodigy business for
	several years but I could not see anything that we could contribute
	that was not already being offered. Going head-to-head with Compuserve
	with their existing base would be futil.

	A couple of months ago it occured to me that it is the local markets
	which are being ignored by the major service providers. By local
	markets I mean businesses and events in your area.

	What if we put together a network of systems (or use existing systems)
	and catered to local business advertising, local events, what is showing
	at the movies, who is having sales, local bullitin boards, etc...

	This in addition to Compuserve like services and connections to the
	Internet.

	I am not really familar with the services available via Compuserve.
	Is is correct to say that local markets are ignored?

joe 
	

    RE .0
    
    I suggested this approximately 3 years ago to my local management. I
    even went so far as to write a proposal and mail it to the
    powers that were. It went no where. My feeling is that we have missed
    the boat again although it it not to late if we can provide
    services cheaper better faster then what is available today. I believe
    that we can't though. Instead we are going to provide video servers
    in competition with ncube and Oracle. This will be a niche market
    for a while. The alpha platform is an excellent one to take 
    advantage of the horsepower needed BUT ncube offers SMP today.
    
    			-Jim-

    Wasn't there just recently a debate in this file about the cost of our
    network services? I seem to recall a price of $5/meg being bandied
    about. We can't even come close to being competitve at those rates!
    
    Americal Online charges me $9.95 a month for my first 5 hours of
    connect time, even at 9600 baud. Cost after that is only $3.50 per
    hour. I can download a lot of stuff in that amount of time. We'd be
    losing tons of money, but maybe would could make up for it with
    volume... ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    Harry
    

    We missed the boat on the opportunity to offer online services long
    ago. Now, tools like VAXnotes look antiquated and expensive compared
    to both the commercial service providers and the independent BBS
    operators. I get more technical help and general information from
    the BBS systems I subscribe to (including Internet access) than I
    do from accessing Digital notesfiles and VTX. And my total outlay
    for online services is about $200/year. Anyone care to guess how
    much my cost center gets charged by IM&T for Easynet access?
    
    Geoff

     re .0 Been there doing that...
    
    Look for us directly on the Internet soon...
    
    Digital should be sponsoring 1 BBS in each city though the local DECUS 
    LUGs... Good business, Great Customer satisfaction...
    
    Anyone needing An OpenVMS BBS system for USEnet/Internet just let 
    me know;-) (and best of all 90% of is is DECUS Freeware;-) 
    
    Dialout for a demo to the Info account...No password is required...
    
    
THE DFWLUG DECUS ORIENTED BBS
 __________
|  ______  | THE DFWLUG                                  BBS: (214) 270-3313 
| / ---- \ | Chartered since 1982                             (214) 270-5383 
|  |    |  | Celebrating Over 11 Years of DECUS     
| \ ____ / | in Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas             
|  ------  |
 ----------  E-mail: [email protected] 			  
 D E C U S        		    

                The DFWLUG is the Local Users Group for the 
              Digital Equipment Computer Users Society (DECUS)


                    THE DFWLUG DECUS ORIENTED BBS

 | NEWS | DECUS | E-MAIL | FREEWARE | DIGITAL | SHAREWARE | ALPHA AXP | 

        
        We've upgraded to the VAXstation 4000/90 72MHz Processor!
                   "The Fastest BBS in Dallas"

      The NEW AT&T Paradyne "Dataport" 14400 Baud Modem is in too!
        
        

The DFWLUG hosts a semiprivate OpenVMS BBS for use by it's membership, 
we currently are using VMS 5.5-2, POSIX or DCL shells, DECUS FREEWARE, 
CDROMS and have over three GIGAbytes of storage dedicated to industry 
information, OpenVMS, Unix-OSF/1, MSDOS/Windows/Windows NT and providing 
net access for our members.

The DFWLUG BBS also hosts multiple phone lines and currently supports 
V.32 and V.42bis (9600 and 14400 baud) modems.

The DFWLUG BBS has been in continuous operation since 1991 and is one
of the few DECUS oriented BBS's in the United States.

We provide a menu-driven and shell environment that features:

 *Individual  Private Accounts and directories
 *VAXnotes    Local Conferencing  
 *USEnetNEWS  1400+NEWSgroups Internet Distributed Conferencing 
 *DECUS UUCP  For E-Mail communications anywhere on the Internet 
 *Files       Upload and Download with Kermit X/Y Modem, or Reflections
 *Indexes     And locations of all the DECUS Software Libraries 
 *Internet    Network Fileservers access (via E-mail) 
 *DFWLUG      Local Fileserver  (100MBs and growing)
 *Access to   DCL and/or the Posix/krn Shell
 *Editors     We provide EDT, TPU, TECO, and vi editor choices

Programs, source code and binary files for all models of computer systems  
are distributed world wide via USEnet NEWS in a variety of standard encoding 
formats (Primarily UUENCODED).  Sources for UUENCODE and UUDECODE are 
available on our local Fileserver. 

The USEnet NEWS expiration on source and binary file NEWSgroups on the 
DFWLUG BBS is 12 months.  This assures capture and the ability to extract 
all of the posted program parts even if they take several days/weeks to be 
posted from the source. 

The DFWLUG BBS offers the news readers selected Newsgroups from alt, austin, 
comp, dfw, news, rec, sci,tx and vmsnet news hierarchies for over 1400+ 
choices and over 800MBytes of online news, programs and tools (you just 
can't read it all;-) 

C-Kermit, X/Y modem, and Reflections protocols are supported for upload and 
download.

In addition to 1700+ Newsgroups and extended archives, the DFWLUG BBS has 
set up a permanent Fileserver for many files of interest to our members. 

Membership in the DFWLUG and attending our User Group meetings has always 
been free but a private account for the BBS is a modest $10.00 per year 
and available to students and professionals in the DFW area. 

Accounts may be obtained at one of the monthly meetings that take place 
every second Tuesday of the month, 7:00pm at the Digital ACT (702-4400) 
in Dallas TX.  Or contact the DFWLUG Membership Coordinator David Cathey
[email protected] (214)618-2117.

For more information and brief access to USEnet NEWS via DECUS's ANUnews
Newsreader, you may dial-in into our public account:

(214) 270-3313 1200 -  9600 Baud 8/n/1  V.32         (Digital DF296 Modem)
(214) 270-5383  300 - 14400 Baud 8/n/1  V.42/V.42bis (AT&T Dataport Modem)
    
    
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------------+
| John Wisniewski |         Consultant/DFW DECUS LUG Counterpart           |
| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |   Voice:             214-404-6412                      |
| |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| |    UUCP:  [email protected]  (DFWLUG BBS)| 
| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | At Work:  [email protected]               |
| Dallas, TX  USA |                                                        |
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------------+
     You're in a Maze of Twisty Little Unix varients -- All different.

Apple  has  recently  announced  plans to offer online BBS-like services.
It's called eWorld.

AT&T will also be offering similar services.

I  don't  think  it's  too  late  to  enter  and compete in  this  field.
Especially considering  that  portable,  easy  to  use devices capable of
connecting to these services will flourish over the next few years.

Obviously, direct access to Notes Conferences on  the  Easynet is not the
way  to  do this, but creating and marketing  this  kind  of  service  is
certainly a legitimate avenue of business.

/Mitch

 ... check out SOFBAS::INTERNET_TOOLS for the latest & greatest info on how
 YOU can hook up your PC, DEC workstation, or even your TERMINAL to the
 World-Wide Web (aka "W3.")  Proviso 1:  You have to have TCP/IP available on
 the machine upon which you run your "browser" (that's internet-ese for
 "client software").  Proviso 2:  This is in active development by a bunch of
 mostly volunteer DIGITAL folks; it's not production quality yet, but watch
 that space for developments.

 Hit KP7 to add this conference to your notebook.  

 See you out on the info highway...

Cheers,

Dan Kalikow, Consultant & Product Manager, Corp. IM&T Info Delivery Utility
Mailstop  MSO2/F4  Office at Pole B3   DTN: 223-3562  Outside: 508/493-3562
DIGITAL:  111 Powdermill Road, Maynard MA 01754-1418 USA  FAX: 508/493-7374
DECnet:   DRDAN::KALIKOW  Internet replies to:  [email protected]
/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\
:> Catch the wave of the FLOOD of info on the Internet's World-Wide Web! <:
:> W3 means Sliced Bread's in serious danger.  W3 => Footnotes With FEET <:
=> Preceding 2 lines are my own personal opinions, not those of DIGITAL. <=
\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/

           <<< SOFBAS::NDISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]INTERNET_TOOLS.NOTE;1 >>>
                              -< Internet Tools >-
================================================================================
Note 229.29               World-Wide Web Tips document                  29 of 29
CALDEC::GRANT "Live free or WISH you had."          260 lines  17-JAN-1994 21:23
                              -< latest version >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
here is the latest version.  comments/corrections welcome.

g.


DIGITAL INTERNAL: World-Wide Web: What you need and where to find it
================================================================================


    World-Wide Web is a wide-area hypermedia information retrieval initiative 
    working to give easy, world-wide access to information via hytertext 
    servers.  Hypertext is an information presentation methodology which allows 
    highlighted words(or links) to point to other hypertext documents.  The
    links are followed by pointing to the link and clicking.  Documents may
    contain text, images, video, audio or postscript.  The thing that 
    makes World-Wide Web so powerful is that the servers know how to deal
    with the Internet and can retrieve documents from anywhere in the world.

    World-Wide Web was developed primarily at CERN, the European Particle
    Physics Laboratory.  World-Wide Web is made up of servers and browsers
    (or clients).  Servers are required if you want to set up a repository of
    hypertext documents for others to access.  If you simply want to explore 
    the Web, you only need a browser and TCP/IP connectivity.
    
    All of the pointers below are for kits which have been altered to allow 
    use through the firewall and CANNOT be used by customers.  See the
    customer version of "World-Wide Web Tips" for where to locate browsers 
    which can be used outside of Digital.  


World-Wide Web Browsers: Mosaic

    The most popular and feature-rich viewer is Mosaic, developed by NCSA(
    National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA) in Urbana 
    Champagne, IL.  There are versions for workstations running Motif, PCs 
    running Windows and MACs.  Check the directory for any instructions on
    installation, esp for Windows and the Macintosh version. xv is not required
    but is useful for viewing images in documents and can be copied from the
    same directories.

    MIPS/ULTRIX:  FTP: easynet.crl.dec.com:/dec/www/bin.mips/Mosaic.Z
                  DECnet: crl::/dec/www/bin.mips/Mosaic.Z

    ALPHA/OSF:  FTP: easynet.crl.dec.com:/dec/www/bin.alpha/Mosaic.Z 
                DECnet: crl::/dec/www/bin.alpha/Mosaic.Z

    VAX/VMS:         SWSCIM::AD$PUBLIC:XMOSAIC-VMS-UCX.README
    (UCX required)   SWSCIM::AD$PUBLIC:XMOSAIC-VMS-UCX.BCK

    PC/Windows:  SDTAD::"/pub/kits/Windows_Client//dwmos10.zip"

    Macintosh:  SDTAD::"/pub/kits/Mac/NCSAMosaicMac.B2.sit.hqx"

    Problems should be reported in the SOFBAS::INTERNET_TOOLS notesfile.


World-Wide Web Browsers: Lynx

    If you don't have a workstation, this seems to be the most popular/easiest
    to use.  UCX is required on VMS systems.  Lynx is also on CRL:: for ULTRIX
    and OSF/1.  Note that images will NOT be displayed on terminals.  Lynx 
    kits can be found in TECO::SYS$PUBLIC:.  Here are the file names and the 
    operating environments they support:

  LYNX-VAX.EXE                  OpenVMS VAX V5.5-2 w UCX 2.0D
  LYNX-AXP.EXE                  OpenVMS AXP V1.5   w UCX 3.0?
  LYNX-MIPS.                    MIPS/Ultrix V4.3
  LYNX-ALPHA.                   AXP/OSF/1 V1.3

DIGITAL INTERNAL: World-Wide Web: What you need and where to find it
========================================================================

Where to find things: A Starting Point

    There are literally hundreds of servers, but here are some places to
    start.  Mosiac provides an excellent one on the Navigate pull-down.
    Pull down the menu and select "Internet Starting Points".  For those 
    without Mosaic, use(line break is NOT part of it but the filename is 
    too long for one line): http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/Mosaic/
    StartingPoints/NetworkStartingPoints.html To view these documents, 
    "open" the following URL(Universal Resource Locator):

  INTERNAL:

    http://www.crl.dec.com/Digital/home.html  [Digital's INTERNAL Home Page]
    http://www.bb.dec.com/ipeasynet/services/www/dec-www-servers.html 
	Internal WWW Servers; a list of Digital Internal Use Only Servers
    http://src-www.pa.dec.com/maps/palo-alto/palo-alto-coffee.html
	Palo Alto Campus Map of coffee shops and all Digital's 
	facilities in Palo Alto
    http://www.crl.dec.com/Digital/WhatsNew.html
	What's New In The Web INSIDE Digital
    http://src-www.pa.dec.com:8002/elf/gateway
	WWW ELF Gateway; ELF from your WWW browser


  EXTERNAL

    http://www.dec.com/info.html     
	Digital's Info Center for Customers - has just about everything
	that is public for customers that Russ Jones can get ahold of.
    http://nearnet.gnn.com/GNN-ORA.html
	GNN Home Page; GNN is Global Network Navigator, a free magazine on 
	the Internet by O'Reilly and Assoc.  Digital advertizes here.
    http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/DataSources/WWW/Server.html
	External WWW servers; long list from CERN of every known server.
    http://sunsite.unc.edu/unchome.html
	UNC's server; includes many government servers, including NII.
    http://sunsite.unc.edu/nii/toc.html
	Table of contents for the National Information Infrastructure
	document, for those who don't want to wait for the VERY large image
	which you get when you go in through the UNC home page.
    http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/Mosaic/Docs/whats-new.html
	What's New with Mosaic
    http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/Tools/Overview.html
	Tools for WWW providers
    http://gatekeeper.dec.com/hypertext/docs/bdgtii/bdgtti-1.02_toc.html
	Big Dummy's Guide to the Internet - Table of Contents

    When you find documents you want to remember, you can add them to your
    "hotlist" by choosing the hotlist item on the Navigate pull-down menu.


The People Who "Made it Happen"

    Thanks to Win Treese (CRL), Andy Payne (CRL), Jim Gettys (CRL), Brian 
    Reid (NSL), Richard Schedler (SRC), Frank Wortner (NYO), Mark Shand (PRL), 
    Les Carleton (CSC/UK), Glenn Trewitt (NSL), Russ Jones (IMC), Ralph 
    James (SDT), Loren Konkus (SDT), Danny Mayer for the internal kits
    and servers.

World-Wide Web: What you need and where to find it
========================================================================


    World-Wide Web is a wide-area hypermedia information retrieval initiative 
    working to give easy, world-wide access to information via hytertext 
    servers.  Hypertext is an information presentationmethodology which allows 
    highlighted words(or links) to point to other hypertext documents.  The 
    links are followed by pointing to the link and clicking.  Documents may 
    contain text, images, video, audio or postscript.  The thing that makes 
    World-Wide Web so powerful is that the servers know how to navigate the 
    Internet and can retrieve documents from anywhere in the world.

    World-Wide Web was developed primarily at CERN, the European Particle
    Physics Laboratory.  World-Wide Web is made up of servers and browsers
    (or clients).  Servers are required if you want to set up a repository of
    hypertext documents for others to access.  If you simply want to explore 
    the Web, you only need a browser and TCP/IP connectivity.
    
    
World-Wide Web Browsers: Mosaic

    The most popular and feature-rich viewer is Mosaic, developed by NCSA,
    the National Center for Supercomputing Applications in Urbana Champagne, 
    IL.  There are versions for workstations running Motif, PCs running 
    Windows and MACs.  Be sure to check the directories listed for additional
    tools and information.

  For UNIX workstations:

    Pointer: ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu:Mosaic/Mosaic-binaries
    Alternate: gatekeeper.dec.com:/pub/net/infosys/mosaic/Mosaic-binaries

    Mosaic-alpha.Z  [for DEC OSF/1, 1.3]    Mosaic-dec.Z  [for MIPS/ULTRIX]
    Mosaic-hp700.Z  [HP/UX]                 Mosaic-ibm.Z  [for AIX]
    Mosaic-sgi.Z                            Mosaic-sun-lresolv.Z
    Mosaic-sun.Z   [for SunOS; if you have problems, try Mosaic-sun-lresolv.Z]
    ** NOTE:  The Solaris port of Motif 1.2 had too many bugs, so was removed. 

  For Macintosh:

    Pointer: ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu:Mosaic/Mac/NCSAMosaicMac.102.sit.hqx

    The NCSAMosaicMac.102.sit.hqx has been stuffed using Stuffit 1.5 and
    has been encoded using Binhex 4.0.  You can un-binhex and un-stuff the
    file using any utility which handles these compression schemes.
    If you don't have one try StuffitExpander  (it nicely handles both schemes)
    located in the Mac/Mosaic directory.  In order to un-binhex the expander
    follow the directions in Binhex.README located in Mac/Utilities.

  For PCs running MS-Windows:

    Pointer: ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu:Mosaic/Windows/wmos1_0.zip

    NCSA Mosaic for MS Windows is a winsock1.1 compliant program.  This
    means that it requires you to have a winsock.dll to provide the TCP/IP
    networking under windows.  If you are using a commercial TCP/IP stack
    such as PC-NFS or running a local area network such as Novell in addition
    to the TCP/IP, you need to contact your network vendor directly about
    obtaining the Winsock DLL.  If you are using a stand-alone Windows box
    on the Internet, you may use a shareware winsock called Trumpet.  We
    have a copy located in the sockets subdirectory, but the latest copy
    can always be found via anonymous FTP at "biochemistry.bioc.cwru.edu"
    in the "/pub/trumpwsk" directory.

World-Wide Web: What you need and where to find it
========================================================================


World-Wide Web Browsers: Lynx

    Lynx was developed at the University of Kansas as a result fo efforts
    to build a a campus-wide information system for use on character cell
    terminals.  Check the directory for details about additional files you
    might want to copy.  Source kits are also available.

    Pointer: ftp2.cc.ukans.edu:pub/lynx

    lynx2-1-1.AIX.EXE.Z                lynx2-1-1.AlphaVMS.Multinet.EXE
    lynx2-1-1.OSF.EXE.Z [for Alpha]    lynx2-1-1.SUN4.EXE.Z
    lynx2-1-1.ULTRIX.EXE.Z             lynx2-1-1_VMS_Multinet.EXE [for VAX]


Where to find things: A Starting Point

    There are literally hundreds of servers, but here are some places to
    start.  Mosiac provides an excellent one on the Navigate pull-down.
    Pull down the menu and select "Internet Starting Points".  For those 
    without Mosaic, use(line break is NOT part of it but the filename is 
    too long for one line): http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/Mosaic/
    StartingPoints/NetworkStartingPoints.html To view these documents, 
    "open" the following URL(Universal Resource Locator):

    http://www.dec.com/info.html     
	Digital's Info Center for Customers - has just about everything
	that is public for customers that Russ Jones can get ahold of.
    http://nearnet.gnn.com/GNN-ORA.html
	GNN Home Page; GNN is Global Network Navigator, a free magazine on 
	the Internet by O'Reilly and Assoc.  Digital advertizes here.
    http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/DataSources/WWW/Server.html
	External WWW servers; long list from CERN of every known server.
    http://sunsite.unc.edu/unchome.html
	UNC's server; includes many government servers, including NII.
    http://sunsite.unc.edu/nii/toc.html
	Table of contents for the National Information Infrastructure
	document, for those who don't want to wait for the VERY large image
	which you get when you go in through the UNC home page.
    http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/Mosaic/Docs/whats-new.html
	What's New with Mosaic
    http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/Tools/Overview.html
	Tools for WWW providers
    http://gatekeeper.dec.com/hypertext/docs/bdgtii/bdgtti-1.02_toc.html
	Big Dummy's Guide to the Internet - Table of Contents

    When you find documents you want to remember, you can add them to your
    "hotlist" by choosing the hotlist item on the Navigate pull-down menu.

    This document was created by Gail Grant.  Please send corrections,
    comments and updates to her at [email protected].

% ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ======
% Received: by mts-gw.pa.dec.com (5.65/13Jan94) id AA12237; Mon, 17 Jan 94 18:19:58 -080
% Received: by wrl.pa.dec.com; id AA08222; Mon, 17 Jan 94 18:19:57 -0800
% Received: by glg.pa.dec.com; id AA13745; Mon, 17 Jan 94 18:19:56 -0800
% Date: Mon, 17 Jan 94 18:19:56 -0800
% From: grant (Gail L. Grant)
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: caldec::grant
% Subject: www.tips
    

    I'm a CompuServe member and I plan to start using the Internet and the
    WWW with MOSAIC soon.  Dan Kalikow gave me a great presentation a few
    weeks back.  It's amazing!
    
    I have just one question:  On the Information Super-Highway that
    everyone talks about, what will be the "road-kill" who can be compared
    to the poor critters who don't make it across a regular highway?
    
    :-)
    
    
    Wild Bill

    
     I suggested a similar idea to CEM sales management several months
     ago.  A slightly different twist in that a local service provider,
     such as a cable, telephone, or newspaper company would purchase
     the service from Digital.  We would operate it under an outsourcing
     arrangement.  
    
     Here's the idea:
    
    
    Community Based Information Services
    ------------------------------------
    
    Digital may be in a unique position to offer geographic communities
    interactive services today, positioning Digital as the preferred
    vendor for tomorrow's advanced services.
    
    Entertainment providers, cable and telephone operators, and 
    consumer electronics companies are all positioning for the 
    coming interactive age.  Interactive television will be a
    reality for a significant percentage of the US population
    in the second half of this decade.  The emergence of the
    television as a true interactive tool is an exciting event
    because of the vast numbers of consumers that will become
    "interactive".
    
    However, it will likely be 2-5 years before interactive 
    television is a reality for a significant portion of our
    country.  Digital could offer one-to-one, one-to-many,
    and many-to-many communications/information services
    today to connect modem-capable users to interactive
    information, thereby becoming the installed vendor
    and preferred solutions provider for future interactive
    services.
    
    It is proposed that Digital consider launching a community
    based information service with the following characteristics:	
    
    	VAX and ALPHA Servers
    	Modems for dial-in connections
    	Mail, Notes, and VTX services
    	Local and remote content
    	Basic and value-added services
    	Government, education, media, merchant and business content
    	Centrally managed
    	Operated by Digital, but not owned
    	Servicing single communities, cities, counties, or states
    	Funded by local cable, telco, city, or content providers	
    	Owned by individual cable, telco, ... or local consortium
    	Repeatable	
    
    Trends
    ------
    
    It will likely be 2-4 years before interactive television is in
    place and commonly available.
    
    Newspapers are launching electronic newspapers and voice accessed
    information lines, funding them with advertising spots forced
    upon the consumer before the intended information is conveyed.
    They are struggling with how to turn information into direct revenue.
    
    90+% of the information we receive today is text based.
    
    Newspapers typically receive only 20% of their revenue from
    reader subscriptions.
    
    Newspaper penetration rates are declining from 80+% to less than 70%.
    
    Newspaper advertising revenue has been steadily decreasing.
    
    Cable TV is just starting to pilot interactive services.  
    Interactive television pilots will begin in late CY93 and into CY94.
    
    Digital's ChannelWorks PC is at least 12 months from availability
    as a consumer-priced device.  
    
    The interactive TV set-top is not available at any price, much
    less at a price that consumers could afford.
    
    Phones, using touch-tone menus, and personal computers, using
    bulletin boards, conferencing, and mail are today's preferred
    communications method.
    
    One in three homes has a personal computer today.
    
    2400 baud modems retail for $50.00 with terminal emulation software.
    
    
    Why Digital
    -----------
    
    We deploy mail, notes, and bulletin boards today in a distributed,
    seamless fashion.
    
    Our tools only assume a terminal (VT100 for VTX) as the user's device.
    
    Easynet could be used to deploy servers into communities while still
    allowing for distributed services, such as accessing a remote newspaper
    or remote community information.  
    
    Easynet also allows Digital to centrally manage the servers.
    
    Easynet may not be able to handle the volume of usage, but it is
    hoped that 90+% of the information requested could be provided
    by the local server, eliminating any WAN overhead.  The servers
    could be bridged off of Easynet for security.
    
    Our software is time-proven and available today.
    
    We have an inventory of older MicroVAX systems and peripherals that
    could be deployed as servers, minimizing capital costs.
    
    
    Services To Be Offered
    ----------------------
    
    Mail, Conferencing, and Bulletin Board tools addressing:
    
        Newspapers
    	On-line newspapers
    	Classified Advertising
    	Remote Newspapers and Classifieds
    	Personalized, profile-filtered news as a premium service
    	
        Local Government and Education
    	Improved communication with citizens
    	The "Electronic Town Hall"
    	Lunch menus
    	Q&A with teachers and peers
    	Online tutors
    	Homework hints
    	
        Local Merchants
    	Available products and pricing
    	Video store titles
    	Notice of sale prices
    	
        Remote Merchants
    	Personal Computer Mail Order (DECdirect)
    	American Airlines On-Line (EAASYSABRE)
    	Home Shopping
    	Mail order
    
    
    Revenue Stream
    --------------
    
    The funding/revenue source for these services differs depending
    upon the source and value of the content.  Users will likely not
    pay for educational bulletin boards, but the local school district
    may.  They may pay $.25 per day for the electronic newspaper
    or they may not be willing to pay anything for it.  Newspapers
    themselves may offer an electronic version for little to no charge
    in return for electronic advertising.  Users may pay $1-$10 per day
    for profile-filtered national and technical/medical/legal news
    important to their profession.  
    
    The service should not be dependent upon any revenue directly
    from users.  This will increase reluctance to use the service.
    Ideally, content providers, merchants, and local government
    fund the service on at least a break-even basis for the operator.
    The operator may be willing to lose money initially.
    
    The local media, cable, or telco provider may wish to purchase 
    this solution on an outsourcing basis from Digital to allow them
    to own the information server and gateway.  The actual revenue
    stream will likely differ by geographic area and the needs,
    incomes, and demographics of the individual communities.
    
    Digital's revenue would come from products and services sold to
    the local operator of the information service.  Digital should
    not risk P&L on the success of the local service.  The local
    operator can market and tailor the service to their users needs.
    Digital operates the service on an outsourcing basis.  The service
    uses off the shelf, non-customized software.
    
    This solution could be repeated in all major communities in the
    country or world.
    
    
     

        PRODIGY-a nationwide info-based service started about five years
    ago.Owned by IBM and Sears.Yet to show a profit.Sounds like something
    we should jump right into.

    Re .12 Yep, and Prodigy not only takes money from its users every
    month, it _also_ takes money from all the advertisers who have drivel
    pop up every time you change screens! I'm amazed that folks pay for
    that kind of service...
    
    I've shown AOL to a few Prodigy users. They immediately switched to
    AOL. They didn't know that there was a better service out there!
    
    Harry
    

    Prodigy just set an all time high for usage, 813,000 users.
    If they are losing money I'd like to know why with that user
    base. Why, just selling users names to mailing lists would create
    a small fortune, especially if you selectively sold the names ...
    Just an idea.
    
    			-Jim-

    This information highway was an idea that was bounced about 7 - 8
    years ago.  The idea was to offer connectivity to our major customers
    via Digitals network.  If we had an office in locations a and b as did
    the customer why not give him use of our network to move data.  This
    would not give him access to our data just our transmission modes for a
    fee.
    
    I attended presentations and even went as far as proposing this to
    a major account, signing non-disclosures etc.
    
    Then it died.  Fuzzy as to the reasons.  Ahead of our time, another PC
    oop?

    Imho, 7 - 8 years ago, and on the bassis of using OUR network (and I'm
    presuming MOSTLY our network), and the idea might well have been before
    its time and/or out of customer focus.  Presently, however, we have an
    opportunity to join a MAJOR revolution, with social and political focus
    on it, and in an open-systems environment.  Even better, we have (again
    imho) both a competitive advantage and even a LEAD in this revolution.
    
    The chances are better now, if we resolve to make a concerted effort.
    

    
    				Hey,
    
    		 Were not sleeping, were taking notes again.
    

    Call me paranoid, but I don't think Digital should jump onto the data 
    superhighway bandwagon.  The main forces driving the current push 
    seem to me to be the communications companies (who are tired of 
    data flowing on cheap voice-quality lines and want to charge more for 
    wideband) and the government (which would like to get more taxes from 
    the already booming communications market).  If Digital were to "try 
    it again" there would probably be little difference because (near as 
    I can tell) the only real difference today is that telcom and 
    government folks are willing to spend big bucks on a new data 
    superhighway.  To some extent, there already exists a major data 
    superhighway (Internet and lots of other sources).  I expect they
    are making money and exchanging services that the telcom and 
    government folks want a bigger piece of.
    
    Steve

    
    Yeah, but suppose we did this in a small way.  Let me give
    you an example: The Visual Basic notes conference.  I have
    been trying to learn the language, and that conference
    has been a veritable wealth of information (better than
    the comp.langauge.newsgroup on the subject, IMHO).  Suppose
    we could sell a subscription to it?  Digital wouldn't
    need to make itself out to be the whizz bang, intergalactic
    Visual Basic information provider, either.  We could take a low
    key approach, like this:
    
    "We have a lot of talented software engineers.  Our software
    engineers write a lot of excellent VB client/server apps for both our
    customers and for our own internal uses <insert various testimonials
    here>.  You'll be able to download sample code, discuss subjects
    of interest with our engineers, get questions answered, etc.  We 
    can sell you full access to this wealth of knowledge for $xx.   
    We'll give you a one week trial subscription if you call 1-800-DIGITAL."
    
    Now, imagine doing this with several of the other conferences. 
    What happens with the give and take in a technical notes conference
    is the generation of *new* intellectual property.  We should
    sell it.
    
    Glenn                                                        

    You're omitting one point - no-one's "supposed" to be 
    answering these notesfiles.   I don't know anything about
    the Visual Basic notesfile, but in most of the technical
    files I read and write in, people answer if and when they
    feel like it (and the infomation may or not be accurate :-).
    This sort of works when the "customers" understand that they're
    entitled to precisely what they're paying, namely nothing at all.
    
    Once the customers have to pay real money for notesfile
    access, it seems to be that they'd be entitled to some
    sort of response guarantee.   Furthermore, whatever you
    say to the contrary, they'd treat replies as being Official
    Replies From DEC - particularly in files which are dedicated
    to DEC products (unlike Visual Basic).
    
    This is likely to produce a chilling effect and reduce
    the efficiency of the files, at least in the ones I
    play in.

    
    re: .20
    
    You have a point. To a point. Any software we sell, documentation
    we write, etc. is full of disclaimers.  Couldn't we put the
    same disclaimers on such a subscription?
    
    I've gotten code examples from MS at a couple of their training
    sessions; they don't seem to be bashful about giving it out, as
    long as you pay for the training (which shouldn't be all that
    different).  Also, there's a give and take with the subject
    matter experts that's useful -- and certainly we don't have
    a monopoly on giving wrong answers sometimes -- MS has been
    known to do it as well.
    
    Glenn
         

    
    re last few.
    
    This would be a two-way street.  We would get to learn a lot
    about the needs and wants of our user base.  That could
    translate directly into product improvements & better market
    share.  A good suggestion.
    
    C
    

    We'll probably need a marketing slogan for this.  Before the Corp.
    Slogan Committee takes this on, how about the following for
    examples 8^)
    
    Digital:  Your Headlights on the Information Highway
    Digital:  Roadkill on the Information Highway
    Digital:  Speedbump on the Information Highway
    
    It's been a long week 8^)
    
    Mark
    

    People in this thread seem to think the world rises and sets out of the
    digital notesfiles on our subject expertise.  It doesn't...
    
    Pardon  me, join the larger world and look at the Internet Newsgroups...
    
    You can argue about Notes being more permenant and archival but after 
    searching for nonexistant nodes and people on easynet that advantage
    has less to recommend it than the RAW timely interaction with Internet 
    NEWSgroups.
    
    The Internet newsgroups make Easynet notesfiles look downright
    pedestrian and novice.  NEWSgroups are where the rest of the world 
    outside of Digital spend their online notes browsing time...
    
    I'm not here to start a flame ware but the DECUServe people and many
    Digital People are under the mistaken impression that Easynet notes
    are something very valuable and unique in the NET.  This is not 
    really true and I find much wider array of usefule information posted 
    and maintained via FTP sites and Internet news...
    
    Now with that said SUN microsystems (heard of them?) provides UUCP
    connections to customers in most major cities at No Charge..  
    
    Other Service providers do much the same thing providing customers 
    and business people low cost NEWS and access across UUCP and SLIP.
    
    Where are we in this revolution?  Why aren't we selling VLCs or 
    DECstations preconfigured for SLIP and UUCP as an internet fire wall 
    and gateway for FREE INTERNET EMAIL AND NEWS ACCESS with some modem
    time provided for by Digital...
    
    The nickle we make off the hardware would be nothing compared to the 
    good will we generate.  And good will would translate into easier 
    sales for Digital equipment long term...
    
    OUr net cost for providing UUCP Email and news in most cities is 
    NOTHING.  We already have the modems and support the servers to 
    deliver this link to our customers.
    
    DSN link?  Make it a UUCP/Slip connection that we firewall into the 
    internet. You need help installing it, Digital Consulting would be 
    pleased to come out and install it for you (for a price;-)
    
    We have to stop thinking about making money from connect times, 
    that's why internet is exploding while services like compuserve,
    American On-line and others are only just growing.  The Internet
    doesn't charge by the minute just to be connected (unless you call 
    the 1-900 number (40cents a minute;-)
    
    Connections and being online should be free... People like that...
    
    People will pay for content and support by the task/item...Service
    charges for services rendered could be an automatic thing...
    
    Either Digital Links customers togeather or they don't, but we have
    an opporutnity to place them in our sphere of influence with us as 
    the link provider instead of someone else...
    
    Just think what a neat front end Teamlinks mail compared to the VB
    front end used by American On-Line or others.. What an impressive 
    front end it would make if we could give it away...
    
    But that would be too smart...
    
    John W.

    The real question here is:  where can Digital offer added value?  In
    other words, what would customers be willing to pay for?
    
    The answer is NOT a DECnet/Notes/VTX-based infrastructure.  Anyone who
    invests in these areas today is going to have to make a complete
    re-investment tomorrow to integrate with the rest of the world
    (IP/news/WWW).
    
    The answer is NOT the material in our non-DEC notesfiles.  Some of the
    material may have value, but it pales when compared to what's available
    on news, CompuServe, etc.  [Exercise for the reader:  take your
    favorite general-interest Notesfile and locate the corresponding
    newsgroup.  Using Visual Basic as an example, see
    'comp.lang.basic.visual']
    
    The answer MAY be DEC-specific product and service information that's
    accumulated in our notesfiles.  But we already have a mechanism to
    deliver this information to paying customers:  consulting.
    
    
    Digital should be figuring out how to make money from the "information
    highway".  Anyone thinking about this should remember:
    
    	(a) we don't set the rules like we used to 10 years ago
    	(b) people pay for things that have value
    	(c) rates of change are significant;  plan for tomorrow, not today
    
    -andy

    
    re: .25 and .25
    
    Go back and read my .19 a little closer.  I did not
    ignore the newsgroups. I just gave the opinion that
    the VB notes conference has been more useful to me --
    thus far.
    
    Further, I don't, by any means, ignore the net. I do, however,
    think that our folks can still provide salable information
    on a lot of subjects.
    
    Glenn
    

    Independent of the quality of the info in the VB notes conference, of
    which I am ignorant, I'd like to suggest that a far more potentially
    successful strategy for getting it available to a potentially paying
    community would be to gateway it into a newsgroup, or to a WAIS-indexed
    info-server visible on the World-Wide Web...  It appears highly
    unlikely (to me) that folks would be willing to or interested in using
    DECnotes.  (much as I love DECnotes...)
    

    Having seen Notes for years, Newsgroups for months, and XMosaic
    only recently, I'd have to say that XMosaic, or something like it, will
    likely be the next step forward - the W3, so to speak.  Internet
    access, graphics support, indexing and distributed
    hyper-information...definitely a step beyond existing technology.
    
    We missed the boat on public access data networks ten years ago when
    IBM did it...InfoNet?  We were never in that market, and we never had
    the expertise to support it externally.  The idea that it's just coming
    up lately, even in the past couple years, is almost comical. 
    
    tim
    
    

    
    I guess I'm still not making myself clear.  What is important
    (or at least what I think is important), is the *content*
    of the notesfiles; the *expertise* residing within the
    conferences.  My point was not to suggest that we let
    people dial-in to a VAX cluster and use the VAXnotes
    structure; my point was to suggest that we sell access
    to the *information* being generated.  There is legacy
    information there that is useful.  There is salable
    intellectual property there.  *That* is my point.
    
    I have been reading newsgroups for at least a couple of
    years; recently I've been surfing with Mosaic.  Probably
    there's a way to let people access that information, for
    a fee, using Lynx, Mosaic, or whatever.  I can't go much
    further here, because my technical understanding of these
    subjects (in terms of how to do it), is not there yet. But
    if I can use Mosaic to go read Moby Dick in the project
    Gutenberg archives, than certainly we can make information
    available.  Whether, and how much, businesses would be willing
    to pay for that information is quite another story, of course.
    
    Glenn

    Yes, there is expertise in the conferences, but it's like free
    advise: you get what you pay for.  If we started charging for
    what is posted in our conferences, then we'd have to back what
    was said there.  Unfortunately, many times what gets posted in
    conferences is speculative, guesswork, or information that just
    plain wrong.
    
    We who use this medium understand the context, and are willing
    to accept the fact that sometimes we'll be steered in the wrong
    direction.  Paying customers cannot and will not (nor should
    they have to) abide by such rules.

re Note 2864.31 by BOOKS::HAMILTON:

>     my point was to suggest that we sell access
>     to the *information* being generated.  There is legacy
>     information there that is useful.  There is salable
>     intellectual property there.  *That* is my point.
  
        I believe that we do essentially this (sell access to
        technical product information gathered internally), however
        the source is the STARS problem-solution databases rather
        than product support notes conferences.  The STARS databases
        tend to contain thoughtfully edited articles with problem
        descriptions and solutions.

        Bob

    
    Um, I stand both corrected (and vindicated? :-)). I just
    accessed both the Stars database (well, I haven't yet
    figured out how to enter a username) and a notes conference
    via xmosaic.
    
    So accessing notes via xmosaic is doable, which brings me
    back to my original point -- and that is that we could
    (if we really wanted to) figure out a way to sell a
    subscription.  I suppose we could argue the pros and
    cons of that all day long, so I'll exit this conversation
    while I can still do so gracefully.
    
    Glenn

Customers have access to the STARS databases when they buy a support 
contract.  They can set up a modem and phone line and use DSNlink to look 
at the articles in the Customer Readable areas (broken up by product).  
They can also use DSNlink to submit problem reports via email.  I think we 
are up to about 50% DSNlink calls and 50% phone calls at the CSC now.

So, we don't actually 'sell' access to the STARS database, but it's a perk 
for buying a support contract from us.

Dave

    I believe that work is underway to allow dsnlink access through
    the web. Just a matter of time. There was a presentation by a 
    member of MCS during the web workshop at CRL in Oct. who stated 
    that such work would be done.
    
    Jim C.
    

	As I stated in an ealier reply I still think we could enter
	this market with a focus on local systems rather than
	a centralized one. (nationally networked of course).

	I few weeks ago I thought of an application/service that
	I would be willing to pay for...

	A service which would allow statements to be sent to me
	electronically, rather than thru the mail. This would allow
	the ability to file them electronically, retrieve them at will,
	and print them if I chose.

	Example: My local credit union sends me statements every month.
	These statement instead would be sent to me electronically to
	my account on the local DEC system. I would use something like
	mail to file them under a folder until I wanted to look at them.
	It would also be nice to be able to downline load them into my
	PC.

	The next step would be to get get companies such as MC/VISA etc..
	to jump on the bandwagon.

	It is likely that this service could be offered with no charge to
	the consumer. The company that is saving the postage would pay.

joe

    Gosh, joe, you sound like a trusting person.  Do you REALLY want your
    personal finances going over the network?  To your DEC system?
    
    Yes, let's dream, but I want some security...

re: -1
	Somehow I have a hard time believing that that would be less
	secure than my mailbox (which is on the road 150 yards from
	my house).

	If someone wants the information bad enough they can get it...

joe

re .39

Some differences:

If they steal it from your mailbox you'll know it's been stolen
 and perhaps do something about the security breach

If they steal it from your mailbox someone could see them
 or catch them in the act

To steal similar things from N mailboxes, they would need to
 visit N mailboxes

I'm  new  to  this  discussion, but not new to -the- discussion. Alot of
people in Digital are looking (and have been  looking)  at  how  to  use
Internet  for  service & product use. There's alot of possibilities. One
reason there's not immediate response - why we're not using it today  to
the extent that we could is the issue of entitlement checking. From what
I've seen so far from a few corporations using internet for "service" is
that  they're  using  it  the same wway we are - there are some "public"
type things (patches, drivers, some support docs)  that  they  (and  we)
release on BBS's CompuServe, etc, that they're not losing any sleep over
anybody accessing from whatever electronic vehicle of choice they should
pick.  But,  there's a whole lot more data that is not released this way
due to lack of a good internet interface  entitlement  checking  program
that  would  reserve  access  to  paying customers. Captive account type
access into some support  systems  like  customer-readable  sections  of
STARS  is  one  way  of  doing  it.  But it's not the whole magilla that
IIT/Superhighway/Internet promises until we can  protect  our  assets  &
make  money off it. When we can prove this to the right business groups,
you'll see the DEC Data Highway (or whatever) "open" up. ("Open" being a
relative  term  since  "entitlement checking" and "internet" are kind of
completely opposite cultural semanticisms). Many people would argue that
entitlement checking defeats the purpose. I'm not placing a value on it,
not  agreeing  or  disagreeing  with  this  assesment,  but  that's  the
perceived  risk  to John Rando (my opinion) regarding MCS assets such as
STARS access from the net (like, carte blanche access).

   (Sending mail to [email protected] will get you this... - butch)


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    Our corporate html's have been on the web for close to a year now
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    to mind who are responsible for this. We were one of the first
    companies to "advertise" through the web on O'reilly and Associates.
    
    I know if I need to access an spd or something in the systems and
    options cat. I just use the web and click and access the info.
    
    Jim C.
    
    

    Good point about "Internet" and "entitlement checking" being anti-
    thetical -- but that's changing, bigtime.  One of the major accelerants
    of the World-Wide Web will be, in my opinion, the existence of a forms
    package for a controlled back-channel of info from browsers to info
    providers, and enhanced security for hypertext transfer protocol
    daemons (aka "httpd"s, aka web-servers).  An excellent forms package
    became available last September, and improved server security came out
    more recently.  (As ever, I'm sure that the last word on both sorts of
    enhancements is a ways off yet.)
    
    I know you weren't saying we should, and I agree that there's no way
    imho that we, Digital, should make major corporate assets like STARS
    freely accessible to anyone with a browser and internet access --
    unless we freely choose to do so, of course.  
    
    No, what will probably happen, and what's beginning to happen on the
    Web, aka Internet, aka the International Information Infrastructure, is
    that folks with info assets are going to "hang out shingles" for, to
    ADVERTISE, the availability services.  These will be "registered" in
    analogs to telephone White Pages or Yellow Pages directories, or
    catalogs.  The availability of such services will be detected by
    web-roaming "knowledge robots" too.  
    
    Customers actually wanting access to such services will find a door
    requiring a purchase order #, or a VISA(tm) card number, or a password
    etc., to be given via a fill-in form or via an offline transaction. 
    Then, only paying customers will get chargeable access to the info
    asset(s) stored on the web servers.  
    
    Mechanisms for doing this securely (and THAT's a big issue on the 'net)
    are now being developed.  When the means to make money off the 'net
    become generally available, the *present* incredible rate of increase
    in adoption and commerce in information will look in retrospect like an
    elementary school bake-sale.
    
    Check out SOFBAS::INTERNET_TOOLS for more info, esp. notes 229.41 and
    .42, or later updates thereof.  Hit KP7 to add that conference to your
    notebook.
    
Dan Kalikow, Consultant & Product Manager, Corp. IM&T Info Delivery Utility
Mailstop  MSO2/F4  Office at Pole B3   DTN: 223-3562  Outside: 508/493-3562
DIGITAL:  111 Powdermill Road, Maynard MA 01754-1418 USA  FAX: 508/493-7374
DECnet:   DRDAN::KALIKOW  Internet replies to:  [email protected]
/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\
:> Catch the wave of the FLOOD of info on the Internet's World-Wide Web! <:
:> W3 means "Watch out, Sliced Bread!" W3 => Footnotes With Wing�d Feet! <:
=> Preceding 2 lines are my own personal opinions, not those of DIGITAL. <=
\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/

    
    
    
    I get frustrated when I read about deals like the Lotus/AT&T deal
    around a public/network notes business.  Any reason why we can't
    one-up Lotus and AT&T?
    

 Lotus - Rumors of a deal with AT&T lift Lotus stock 11% to 58 1/4

        {The Boston Globe, 18-Feb-94, p. 73}

   Lotus stock rose to a record high after a Wall Street analyst said the

 company was about to sign "a very profitable deal" with AT&T.  In a five-page

 report, Terence M. Quinn outlined a pact in which Lotus would sell its

 proprietary Notes product to AT&T, and would collect an ongoing 15% of any

 service fee that customers pay.  Representative of both companies declined to

 comment yesterday on any impending deal.  Quinn, an analyst with New

 York-based Furman Selz Inc., said that "industry sources" had assured him that

 "Lotus and AT&T are 90% there.  This will be signed and announced within the

 next month or so."  According to Quinn, Lotus and AT&T will join forces to

 create a computer network that companies can pay to use for such purposes as

 distributing time-sensistive information - from bond ratings to price changes

 - to customers or to its sales force.  "Notes will be the software heart of a

 system that will be smack dead in the center of the information highway,"

 said Quinn.

    
>    I get frustrated when I read about deals like the Lotus/AT&T deal
>    around a public/network notes business.  Any reason why we can't
>    one-up Lotus and AT&T?
    
    Because we're not in the applications software business.
    
    			Alfred

   Re: .45
   
   Because we don't have any products that come even close to Lotus
   Notes.

... someone took the time to do more than just IMAGINE!

Everytime I see Lotus Notes mentioned it really pains me. We owned that and 
now it is the software foundation that Lotus is betting its business on. One 
of the software engineers at LOTUS used to work for me in the Mill. He now 
works for Len Kawell, who we all know is the person whoe started Notes at 
Digital.

Regards,

Jim

    re -.1
    
    Digital has given away new ideas and multi-million/billion dollars
    in opportunities in our inward attempt to maintain our rightful 
    market share.
    
    If we had given away (read $25 each) PC client kits for notes, added
    TCP/IP support, and supported other platforms then it might have 
    been different.
    
    Notes, Expensive Compilers, ALL-IN-1 and every piece of software
    that's not realistically market priced is a spin off company waiting
    to happen.
    
    So don't bemoan what has happened -- Tell me what we are going to 
    do to keep it from happening again.
    
    Here I have an idea:  Let's take the source code for every Software
    product we've killed in the last 12 months and give it to DECUS 
    placing it in the Public Domain.
    
    I bet there would be a lot of folks picking up that "EXPENSIVE" code
    and working it into nice CHEAP kock off products for our platforms...
    Hey, there might even be a reason for using our platforms if there 
    is cheap software available...
    
    No, Let's not do something like that, let's keep those TK50s in 
    engineering manager's desks until it's truely old and worthless 
    and then try to SELL it someone for 4 million dollars.  
    
    That's the Digital way...
    
    People leave this company with more multi-million dollar frustrated
    ideas than any other place I know.. Management better be trying to 
    fix and enhance our creativity and channeling it into our business
    instead of booting us out to become competitor to Digital with it's 
    own products/ideas.
    
    Just my humble opinion,
    
    John Wisniewski
    

    Re: .50
    
    I'd gladly buy WINVT for my PC if it was cleaned up just a bit
    and that's saying alot cause I've only bought 4 comercial 
    software packages and the rest is shareware.
    
    I'm sure anyone else who's used WINVT would agree.
    
    Robin 
    
    P.S.  Bookreader/CC should also be added to the above.

    Unless I'm very much mistaken, WINVT was a midnight hack by an employee
    who has since been laid off by Digital. I agree, it has enormous
    potential to be a very successful, commercial product.
    
    Laurie.

    That part's true, :-( but last I heard (3 months back or so), that
    excellent code-base had been taken over by a crackerjack engineer (from
    the terminals group?) who had done something similar in the Macintosh
    space.  Evolving WINVT is now (or was then) part of his job. :-)
    

You heard wrong.  Jeff Lomicka has been porting his wonderful Whack (VTxxx for
MAC emulator) to MS-Windows.  It shares nothing with WinVT.

    Matt is (as ever) right... I heard the same info from another
    authoritative source yesterday...  I'd forgotten Jeff's name, and was
    also confused on the code base.  What got pagefaulted out involved the
    WinVT multisession capability...  I thought that part was coming into
    "Whack."  Oh well, back to the appropriate conference with this
    rathole...
    

    When I first got onto ARPA-net back in the 80's, I thought the idea of
    'free' software was quite stupid. After seeing some of the quality
    software that has come out of the GNU arena, midnight hacks, and such,
    I have changed my mind.
    
    Ken has the right idea. Let's put that code we no longer work on to
    good use!
    
    --- Gavin

	FWIW, the engineer that did WinVT, Ed Pfromer, did NOT get 	
	laid off by DEC. He's out being a capitalist like alot of
	others. 

							mike

>	FWIW, the engineer that did WinVT, Ed Pfromer, did NOT get 	
>	laid off by DEC. He's out being a capitalist like alot of
>	others. 
    
    Of course if Digital had been willing to pay him to turn WinVT into
    a real product he'd probably still be here. But we have this tradition
    of not doing so. 
    
    			Alfred

and KEAterm just started shipping their MSU option for their terminal 
emulators, a capability WinVT was famous for (and no one else had).


Another missed opportunity...

RE: .59

	I ordered my copy the other day. Should be in today or tomorrow.

	Just call 1-800-SOFTWARE..

	Time to reply to Ed Pfromers mail from this morning. :-) (we've
	been pals for 5 years)

							mike

    Do I gather that Ed Pfromer had something to do with KEAterm?  If so,
    bully for him!!!
    

Re: .61

I take .60 as meaning that he'll tell Ed he's not going to need Ed's
emulator any longer now that a commercial product with TD/SMP support
and all the things Ed's emulator lacks is available.

I don't believe Ed has or had anything to do with KEA.

...petri

    I'm entering this note from home using a Digital-authored terminal
    emulator that supports multiple sessions, file transfer while multiple
    sessions are running (I'm copying a large file in another window while
    entering this), runs on MacIntosh, Windows 3.1, Windows NT, and will be
    ported to X (to replace DECterm and dxterm).
    
    It ain't ready for wide consumption internally yet, but anyone who is
    interested should watch the WinVT notesfile for an announcement.
    
    I wouldn't pay money for KEA while this is so close...
    
    	dave
    

    Haven't we already established that the author of WinVT has left the
    company? Or is this a completely new product?
    
    Laurie.

RE: .64

	What .63 is running is a completely new product.

RE: .63

	Oh well. I need something in the meantime. Procomm+ isn't that
	great. I can never get the scripts to work for me. I hope VTstar
	or whatever it's going to be called has scripting.

RE: .61 I think?

	Ed had nothing to do with Keaterm/MSU that I know of. It probably
	would have been a conflict of interest anyways and gotten a 
	DEClawyer on his butt if he did. Read the WinVT notesfile for the
	old history of the crap that Ed went thru to try and make
	something of WinVT. His was a good effort and I'm sure VTstar will
	be better (I hope!), but it was frustrating to watch the internal
	crap this company lives for.

							mike

    Yep...sorry if I was unclear about it.  I'm using VTstar as Mike
    mentioned.  
    
    I continue to use Reflection also because of its powerful scripting and
    reliability.
    
    However, the file transfer program available with VTstar is about 4
    times as fast as Reflections's WRQ.
    
    	dave
    

    Re .63, and beyond.  If I am correct, teh "Father of Vstar" had this
    running on Atari MANY years ago.   It DEOS take a while to notice when
    we have something good, doesn't it ?
    
    Bill