Conference 7.286::digital

    Page 307 in the phone book, also available in PS format on the network
    some where.

    You can order them from the warehouse in Northboro Ma.  Send orders to:
    NEST::ORDER or @NRO Part Number EF-A0843-50.  You can also call
    Publishing & Circulation Services Help Desk: DTN 234-4429.

	Online:
		$VTX AMTABLES

		Option 5 Mail Reports/Fiscal Calendar

You can also try from a VMS system :

$ SCHEDULE SHOW FISCAL_YEAR 1994

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The various possible answers shows up a lack of Enterprise Integration within
Digital. Digital employees still do not know how to efficiently solve basic
things because nothing helps them. 

Although we have the right technology, network and systems, we still need to
duplicate basic information in heterogenous systems �NOTES, VTX, Page 307 in
the phone book, mail to  NEST::ORDER, $ SCHEDULE, etc.�. This multiplicity
seriously generates confusion, delays, costs and poor quality service. 
I would even bet that some people are paid in Digital to manualy generate 
the printout versions of the fiscal calendars !

I wonder how we can bring real solutions to customers if we are not capable of
solving the simplest ones.

Should anyone be blamed ?

Regards,
Jean
    

    That's assuming you have POLYCENTER Scheduler installed (or the older
    DECscheduler).
    
    -Ross (tech writer for POLYCENTER Scheduler)

    re .4 Awesome. Now, how do I get it to pause on each screen so I can
    read it before it goes by? Even wimpy little DOS lets me do that sort
    of thing with ease. :-)
    
    Harry
    

    Did you try Hold Screen (F1)
    
    ???

.5 to .7 are other proves of lack of Enterprise Integration. In such a case the
poor design (so the people, so us) of software systems is responsible.

.5 apparently requires a specific disproportionate installation as regards this
simple business problem. Yet the added-value logic to build the fiscal calendar
is a matter of 100 lines of code.

.6 VMS DCL user interface is not user-friendly. For instance there are many
options to the $ TYPE command, however the most useful one /SCROLL is missing.
These are minor details which for sure affect customer satisfaction and explain
why people for instance prefer other software products.

.7 is a wrong fix to a problem which should have never existed.

You can also try :
$ SCHEDULER SHOW FISCAL_YEAR 1994/OUTPUT=FY1994.LIS
$ TYPE/PAGE FY1994.LIS

Same conclusion :
If nothing changes, delivering real solutions may just be words...

Regards,
Jean
    

    Rathole...
    
    
    I am note sure what you mean by /Scroll for the Type command but /page
    works well for me. That one holds the output at the end of each page
    until you hit return.
    
    Simon

>>> .7 is a wrong fix to a problem which should have never existed.
    
    
    Hmmm, seems a little harsh to me. Try SHOW QUEUE or any other VMS
    command that shows a big gob of stuff, and see what happens. Not fair
    to pick on the Scheduler (which is one of the top 10 of Digital 
    products)!
    
    BTW, Scheduler allows users with privs to redefine the fiscal calendar,
    so there's really no guarantee that you're looking at Digital's fiscal
    calendar when you use the command SCHEDULE SHOW FISCAL. (However, on a
    production system at Digital, it is most likely Digital's fiscal
    calendar.)
    
    -Ross (Scheduler tech writer)

Re:                   <<< Note 2859.4 by ULYSSE::FINKA >>>

>You can also try from a VMS system :
>
>$ SCHEDULE SHOW FISCAL_YEAR 1994

But that doesn't show holidays.  So it's really only half a calendar.  Or 
perhaps it's designed so people unwittingly work holidyas?  :-)

-  David

>>.6 VMS DCL user interface is not user-friendly. 

	I certainly hope you don't think a Unix systems command
	interface is more user-friendly. At least DCL is somewhat
	consistent and based on real words like TYPE and SHOW.

	DCL ain't perfect but it's alot better than other 
	command line interfaces.

						mike

    .12

    Unless you're one of the billions of people who do not speak English.
    If you don't speak English, UNIX (TM) is probably more user-friendly
    than DCL. Frightening Eh? ;-)
    

re .13:

In what language does "grep" mean search?

    
    >In what language does "grep" mean search?

     UNIX and related dialects.

    			Alfred

     RE: .15
    
      I believe that the reference was to a language other than a
     programming language.

    
    It's the fact that grep does not mean anything that may give it an
    advantage over VMS.  Where a programming language emulates
    the syntax of a particular natural language, it may cause difficulties
    for users who do not use that particular language. As examples: the
    noun-verb-object ordering of English, the forming of plurals by adding
    "s" and negation by adding "no".  VAX/VMS and DCL are very difficult to
    translate into local languages.  UNIX is largely symbolic.  Where UNIX
    falls down is it's use of mnemonics like "m" for modify.  
    
    C
    
    

My mind sometimes makes me type "SEARCH" when I mean "DIRECTORY".
This is because I'm thinking along the lines of "let me look
for that file", and since "search" is a verb, it seems to
spring to the fingers more readily than "directory", since despite
all evidence to the contrary, I still believe the lie that
DCL commands are all verbs.

By contrast, I can't imagine getting confused over "grep" :-)

So I think a reasonable argument could be made against
use of English words...


[English speaker for 36 or more years, VMS user for 12 years]

Continuing the command discussion 8-)

No offense, Mike, but when I want to cancel a print job, I don't want to stop
queue, or more recently, delete/entry.  I don't care what my entry is or even
what an entry is!  As for the consistency aspect, how come it is "SHOW ENTRY"
but "DELETE/ENTRY"  and don't you dare get the space and slash reversed!

IMNSHO, the DCL interface is horrendous and should have been scrapped a loooong
time ago.  Worse yet, it has propogated into manging DECWindows interfaces in
an inconsistent style.

At least, when I type "command -h" on U*X or "command/?" on MSDOS, it doesn't
clear my bloody screen!

Give me the interface I had on TOPS-20 or RSTS V5 anyday.

BobW

>================================================================================
>Note 2859.12            FY94 Fiscal Calendar for Digital                12 of 16
>AXEL::FOLEY "Rebel without a Clue"                   10 lines  26-JAN-1994 10:50
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>.6 VMS DCL user interface is not user-friendly. 
>
>        I certainly hope you don't think a Unix systems command
>        interface is more user-friendly. At least DCL is somewhat
>        consistent and based on real words like TYPE and SHOW.
>
>        DCL ain't perfect but it's alot better than other 
>        command line interfaces.
>
>                                                mike
>

    re: .17
    >> It's the fact that grep does not mean anything ...
    
    Actually, in typical computerese fashion, "grep" is a four-letter
    acronym for gLOBAL rEGULAR eXPRESSION pARSER, indicative that the
    pattern for which you are searching can be specified in full pattern
    matching syntax (a rEGULAR eXPRESSION).
    
    

RE: .19

	The only reason that things like SHOW ENTRY and DEL/ENTRY got
	screwed up is because, IMHO, the "importance" of consistancy
	with regard to VMS and DCL was at an all-time low a few
	years ago. Even the exhaulted "it has to be a verb" rule was
	bypassed, and bypassed I might add, by some groups willing to
	be a pain in the ass and push till some said it wasn't worth
	it.

	DCL is still better, IMHO, than most of the other command
	line interfaces. Rumour even had it recently that someone
	(company or person, I don't know) was looking to do a native
	Windows NT version of DCL as part of a porting effort to
	move something from VMS to Windows NT.

	DCL isn't perfect and I've already said that.. It's still 
	pretty good tho. And if Dave Cantor had been given DCL to
	work on/own when he was here, it would have gotten consistent,
	provided he got his way. But Dave is dealing backjack in Conn.
	now and DCL is the furthest thing from his concern.

						mike

	(don't ask me to remember who's and when's, I can't remember that much!)

    	I was going to suggest that even if all DCL commands were not
    verbs, and even if they were all "English only", at least they were
    pronounceable. Then I remembered "CC" ;-)

I'm not normally one to complain about the lack of a :-), I can't stand them
myself, but I do hope nobody takes .17 seriously.

Let's all use APL as a CLI, shall we?  Then nobody has an unfair advantage. 
Because nobody has a chance of understanding the damn stuff.

Nick

    
    .23
    
    You mean you require the presence of a :-) symbol to be absolutely certain
    of the meaning of my note, in spite of the fact that we seem to share a
    common language?  

	Colin
    

I've just realised how to remember the DCL command you need.  Simply
think of the exact opposite, and there's your command.

Want to restore some files from tape?  The command is "backup".

Want to send a message to logged-in users?  The command is "reply".

 :

    RE: .25 And the corresponding clue for UNIX is to think of a word
    that you think will do it and remove all the vowels.

    			Alfred

    re .26 you forgot the rot-13 trick after yours.  Works every time for me!

re .24:

No, I don't need it.  But it suddenly struck me that somebody might, and oh,
the cold chills up'n'down my spine...  I've seen stupider arguments acted on,
and had to code around the awful results.

By the way, if you're from the USA, we only appear to share a common language.

Nick

minor nit

g/re/p

Global/Regular Expression/Print

    
    The argument put forward in .17 simply states that designing an
    interface based on natural language rules is not good design.  It
    makes the product harder to use if you do not know the rules,
    and it prevents *us* from easily localising the product.
    
    You may think this stupid, but it's also in our own guidelines for
    designing international products.  The examples cited are specifically
    dealt with in section 4 of the Software I18N handbook.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin               
    

    RE: a few back
    
    'CC' as the VMS DCL verb to invoke the 'C' compiler is no more cryptic
    than the 'C' language itself.
    
    Lee

Yet adding the /SCROLL functionality would have required less effort that 
replies to this note and would have contributed to solve the problem. So
something is wrong. No offence, just trying to add value.
Regards,
Jean

Re .9 
�    Rathole...
�    I am note sure what you mean by /Scroll...
Contradiction. 

Re .10
Other things being worse is not a valid excuse for non improvement. The arrows
or the next and prev screen free keys on our keyboards could be turn to account
with very few lines of program code. This is how Scheduler (consider it just as
an example) could better rate in the top 10.

Re .11
�Scheduler fiscal calendar does not show holidays ?
So there is a requirement for improvement. This is a general problem with
calendars in computer systems. Nevertheless algorithms exist for each country. 
I can provide you with the French one.

Re .12 
I think that small improvements with big impacts are still relevant to DCL.

Re .30
�    The argument put forward in .17 simply states that designing an
�    interface based on natural language rules is not good design.
I bet this assertion will show up it was wrong within 10 years !

    
    Re .32 & .7
    > Yet adding the /SCROLL functionality ....
    
    It has been done a long time ago. It's out there on any OpenVMS XAP
    V1.5 system and on OpenVMS V6.1 on both platforms. 
    Try it. TYP/PAG=SAVE some_file.
    
    >Re .9
    >�    Rathole...
    >�    I am note sure what you mean by /Scroll...
    >Contradiction.
    
    Strange kind of humor...
    
    Hein.
    

You know you're on VMS when you see pause-at-end-of-page designed into half the
applications instead of the base O/S ...

... and the users believe the deficiency is in the rest of the applications.
				/AHM

    .34:
    
    And the pauses count precisely 24 lines/page, of course.
    
    Dick

    At the risk of starting yet another rathole, does anyone know where a
    fiscal calendar for FY95 can be found? I've tried VTX AMTABLES, using
    FISCAL.095 as the report name, but it came back as 'unavailable'.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Freddie

    can anyone supply a .ps file of the FY1995 calendar either as a reply
    here or direct to my account listed above .....
    
    thx in advance for your help
    
    Feargal

    see .3 in this note.