Conference 7.286::digital

    
    
    	Steve,
    
    	The same thing happened years ago with Motorola. During the
    	70's I found myself without an income and two kids to raise
    	no less than twice in 4 years. Both times before the end
    	of the fiscal year (pre-Christmas, Ho Ho Ho). They would lay
    	off engineering staff like mad starting in about October or
    	early November and then hire back the next spring. What they
    	found happened was that a number of engineers got fed up with
    	this and went to other professions. They were no longer available
    	for rehire and so the hiring pool had overlapped heavily to
    	new engineering school graduates without the time, experience
    	and hard knocks that a lot of the more "expensive spread" had.
    	So, they had lost credibility and they were paying for it. 
    	Semiconductors seem to work this way. They have feast and famine
    	and tend to be unstable in terms of frequency of layoff. I just
    	hope we aren't seeing a trend here. There are people who are
    	good in our industry. They have experience. I think that the
    	experience is worth every $$$ we pay for it. I'm not saying
    	don't hire just out of school. Do that. Get those folks mentors
    	who have been around the block. But, KEEP the folks who know
    	where the pits are and don't have them living under a veil of
    	fear that they will lose in the next "layoff lottery".  Value
    	them. Let them know where they stand.
    								kim

    Ref: 0 and 1-
         You both make excellent points. I only wish the SLT read these 
    notes. You've touched on our most compelling need...IMHO!
    
                                                    Peace,
                                                    -RAM-

    Remember that Bob Palmer went from TI to found Mostek (where the layoff
    situation was pretty much the same sort of cycle before they were
    bought out by United Technologies) and from there to Digital.  This is 
    according to a former digit who worked at Mostek prior to coming to 
    digital.

    
    >   You both make excellent points. I only wish the SLT read these
    >    notes. You've touched on our most compelling need...IMHO!
              
    
    i keep reading people say, i wish the big managers read this note
    and that and SLT to read this and that.
    
    have any one may be considered making a collection of the best notes
    here that reflect and enhance the best views being presented on
    the current issues that you feel will be of value for the big managers
    to read, and then may be send these notes to them via mail or
    some other means so they can read them?
    
    like they say, if the customer wont come to see you, you go see them?
    
    just an idea, offcourse the authors of the notes must be consulted
    first and take their approvals.
    
    \nasser
    
    

    The question that we must ask ourselves is what has happen to the US
    Chip Technology.   US was the leader in Chip technology, and all of
    a sudden we are not even considered in the race (with the exception
    of Intel and the X86 Family of CPU Chips).   So folks I think there
    is a learning here (please read note 2635 that I posted).  If you keep
    playing the 'on/off' game, sooner or latter you will pay for it.
    
    Are we going to loose our competitive advantage in the high technology
    industry because our leaders are making Cost sensitive, short time,
    tunnel vision decisions ?    

    The layoff cycle may have something to do with it in an indirect way,
    but not directly.  The problem with the CHIP industry moving outside of
    the US is purely PRICE.  They sell it cheaper...

    Jim Morton

    
    Re:
    
>    just an idea, offcourse the authors of the notes must be consulted
>    first and take their approvals.
    
    I strongly disagree. Anything posted in a notesfile that is not members
    only can be extracted and forwarded to anyone within Digital. I do it
    all the time, it is also not against any policy.
    
    Posting a note in a Digital internal use notesfile is no different than
    sending a mail message to ALL Digital employees. It is just a more
    efficient use of resources. With the notesfile route intermediaries (ie
    extractors) just help to bring things to the attention of people that
    need to know this information. Often individuals that the original
    poster wouldn't know about and hence wouldn't have known to send a mail
    message to them in the first place.
    
    Dave

   
    
    	Yes Jim, price does have a lot to do with the movement
    	of industry to outside our borders. However, there
        are a number of factors that contribute to that. Here
    	in the U.S. we have lots of laws governing competition,
    	monopoly, patents, copyrights, etc. that have virtually
    	no meaning outside of our country. Other countries feel
    	no pang of conscience when copying our designs and selling
    	it like mad. All they need to cover are production costs
    	and as soon as they can fit a line, they are off and running.
    	They can compete with us on their own terms, unencumbered by ours.
    	We do need to deal with that. I'm afraid I am seeing the
    	"royal we" dealing with that. It will have to be addressed
    	at a national level.
    
    	Getting back to the original topic though, I really believe
    	that if we could get a grip on our own business and have
    	some stability back in our employee population, we could 
    	be competitive. I reiterate my hope that we aren't getting
    	into the dreaded layoff cycles that I have seen for so many
    	years in semiconductors. It creates a mentality. People working
    	for the bucks. No loyalty. No committment. Droids. Sad.
    
    							kim
    

    Kim,
    	I'm not arguing the point about layoffs being bad and a real
    problem.  In fact I have a problem with layoff and rehire.  Loyalty is
    and a consistent knowledge base is extremely important for a cost
    effective business.
    	I want to be loyal.  I also expect to be treated with the same
    care.  Some will say "If you don't like it here leave" and "The door
    swings both ways".  True, but what they fail to realize is; If one
    person leaves, it is a small percentage of loss to a large company.  To
    that individual, it is 50% to 100% of that persons family income.  The
    effect is greater on an individual than the company.
    	Loyalty needs to work both ways.  And as you can see we agree in
    the same area.  If we need to layoff, we do it now and fast.  Plain and
    simple.  Don't yo-yo back and forth, for productivity.

    Jim

    Again, folks, short term cost control for the solely purpose of cost.
    That is the only reason that anyone will have/has had a 'yo-yo
    syndrome' (hiring/firing/hiring/firing).   That demostrates the type
    of management (completly uncompetitive) that a company has.   No 
    long term vision, no purpose, no nothing.   I will keep of saying,
    until proven wrong, that cost competitiveness alone will not achieve
    'Best in Class' results that we are preaching and will ONLY achive
    better short term financial results with a long term (???) uncertainty
    as of the feasibility (going concern ?????) of the corporation.
                                              

    
    
    	Yes Jim. I can see we are in "violent agreement" on this.
    	Loyalty is such a strong thing when it exists. Loyalty
    	is also a hard thing to crush but once that is accomplished,
    	it is even harder to resurrect. Another thing that is more
    	easily crushed is Trust. Try getting that back once it
    	has been successfully extinguished. If this were a perfect
    	world...
    							kim
    

It's amazing to me "the number of people throughout this company" seem to have 
the same opinion when it comes to the "layoffs". At least the ones in this
notes conference and the people I personally deal with on a day-to-day basis.
Everyone seems to have the same "wish", GET THIS OVER WITH. I think everyone
agrees with the need to downsize, rightsize, but get a target and finish it! I 
also believe that people are realistic enough to know, that if we reach a target
and after a period "of lets say for a year", if the company is not profitable
that we may have to go through this again. Just the mere "Threat" of the 
potential of being "layed-off", every quarter, every month, "whatever the
frequency is now", is like putting shackles on peoples moral and expecting 
them to run in a race for the good of the company. We all want Digital to 
be sucessfull! We have the technology, now let's do something with it! Get
rid of these rain clouds and at least give people a chance to look at some
daylight.

 Maybe management knows the effect this is having on moral and 
really doesn't want to do anything about it, maybe its part of the game plan,
get moral so low, so that people begin to leave in drooves. I really hope
that isn't the case.


Rick

    

It isn't going to end.  There is no final number.  What is going to
happen is that there will be a core of employees of various levels, say
40000 and the ups and downs of the business cycles will be handled by
contract work.  need more engineers, hire 5 for a year.  need more
techs in mfgs (this is already happening) hire them contract.  when the
need changes, you change the personnel.  What the heck are we building that
takes 100000 people to make and sell?  Chips?  That is not a headcount 
intense area.  Systems?  more and more industry standard designs needs
less people to make it.  Software?  NT and OSF applications will be written
by Borland, Microsoft, Lotus et cetera.  Systems integration?  not if
NT is the OS of choice.  

And with Taiwan partners opening plants in mainland china, contracting mfg
will even be cheaper.

Let's face it, we are the chrysler of the computer industry.  In the late
70's, with a billion in the bank and loans backed up by the feds, Chrysler
had a massive consolidation worldwide.  They now build 4 cars.  Intrepid,
Caravan, Talon, and Shadow.  They market them all different ways between
the 4 divisions.  Heck they don't even build their own trucks anymore.  But
the got a niche, they are mostly (not recently) profitable, and pretty
lean.   And guess what.  GM and IBM look a lot alike.

DEC will survive, but, it ain't gonna look anything like them "good-ole-days".

    Beginning to look a lot like the 'Shamrock Organisation' forecasted
    by Prof. Charles Handy.
    
    A core of industry/business experts who _really_ know what's going
    on in the org'n, are permanent hires and the main centre of expertise.
    
    A cadre of contract skilled people who bring the skills needed for
    one-off needs - often highly skilled but in a Very narrow area.
    
    A third contract leaf who service the environment, keep the admin straight,
    maintain the bill paying/invoicing/HR/buildings etc.
    
    The question that we all need to ask is where will _I_ fit?  My
    belief is the shamrock will bloom <5years.
    
    CB                                              
    

    re -1
    Where did Handy make this forecast?  

    re: .14
    
    I believe that's a pretty fair assessment.  As far as engineers go,
    they need to move into either expert roles or project management roles.
    Basically, engineers need to move out of roles where they can be easily
    replaced by computers.  It's always a moving target, so if you are
    going to have a career you need to keep learning.  
    
    I think we usually assume that consultants are always outside of the
    company.  That's really not the best situation, obviously.  But, a
    company as large as Digital is capable of keeping consultants on the
    payroll who move from group to group.  That's basically what I've done
    most of the time I've been here.  I think it's still a good formula for
    the future -- good for the consultants (who want security as well as
    training and work) and good for Digital (who would like to do "pay as
    you go" with experts for the best price).
    
    Steve

    
    
    	re .15
    
    	The book by Charles Handy is entitled THE AGE OF UNREASON
    
    	It is out in paperback. You should be able to order it
    	at your local bookstore or library. It was a required
    	text in one of my MBA classes a year ago. Very interesting 
    	reading and it looks to me like we are heading in the direction
    	he predicted.
    							kim
    

    I don't know if anyone saw Bob Palmer's last Employee Forum on DVN ...
    
    When asked about layoffs, he essentially said that we were going to
    enter the arena of hire where and when we need and layoff where and
    when we don't.
    
    It's roller-coaster time in Digital ... shame.
    
    Stuart

    Re: .13-
    
    	Please enlighten me on the comment that Chrysler doesn't build
    their own trucks anymore. Which? Their mini-vans are their
    bread-and-butter line and are exclusively U.S. built so far as I know.
    
    Phil_who_has_a_full_size_ChryCo_van_built_in_Canada_and_is_curious.

    Re: .19
    
    Most of Chrysler's minivans are built in Canada - always have been.
    Many have had Japanese engines.  All of their new "LH" cars are 
    built in Canada.
    
    				Steve

    Re: .20-
    
    	I thought minivans were largely domestic and full-size were
    Canadian manufactured. I may be mistaken.
    
    	Does Canadian origin effect CAFE compliance numbers?
    Phil

>    Most of Chrysler's minivans are built in Canada - always have been.
>    Many have had Japanese engines.  All of their new "LH" cars are 
>    built in Canada.
    
    And they have or soon will start making minivans in Europe.
    

re: .14
    
>    A core of industry/business experts who _really_ know what's going
>    on in the org'n, are permanent hires and the main centre of expertise.
    
Hey, i thought we already TFSOed most of those folks!

Would "a core of technobizbabble reciting, butt-covering office politicos
with major expertise in holding meetings/slideshows with each other" be an
acceptable substitute?

;^)

P.s.  at least we're advertising in the Boston Globe Help Want ads again
	(for UNIX software engineers), FWIW

Hoping to put an end to the Chrysler minivan rathole ... the "grand" versions
are built in St. Louis, and the regular versions are built south of Detroit,
in Windsor, Ontario.

    
    
    About not building trucks...I meant pickup trucks.  Like the Dodge ram
    stuff...

RE .7:

>    Posting a note in a Digital internal use notesfile is no different than
>    sending a mail message to ALL Digital employees. It is just a more
>    efficient use of resources.

As the basenote author, I agree. Personally, my feeling is that if I am going to
open my mouth in a public forum such as this conference, I am releasing my
thoughts to be picked up and forwarded by and to anyone, since anyone could have
found them on their own here (my only requirement is that the context be
preserved, since anything can be manipulated by taking it out of context). As
such, I stand behind what I say and accept full responsibility for
whatever consequences result, whether the topic is the future of the company, or
what I had for lunch. I certainly appreciate the politeness of someone asking my
permission, but if I wanted to restrict its distribution, I would not have said
it here. And BTW, thanks for the appreciation if you felt it captured a thought
well enough to pass on!

Steve B.

	re:            <<< Note 2637.18 by KAOFS::S_BROOK "DENVER A Long Way" >>>
    
|>
|>    I don't know if anyone saw Bob Palmer's last Employee Forum on DVN ...
|>                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow, I didn't realize we'd get down to just one employee so quickly!

8-)



			

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