Conference 7.286::digital

    Some might suggest that "real software engineering types" program
    in postscript and make their own signs. :-)

    They'd be simple to make in DECWRITE as well. And real software 
    engineering types can figure that out easily enough. :-)

    Some might also suggest that if you notice noise you're not working
    hard enough. Of course I picked the noisiest spot in the office on
    purpose. Here I hear more of what's going on. If it gets too much I
    just stop listening. Or I put on headsets - either music or just
    sound reducing ones. 

    		Alfred

    that is why i been asking the cooperation to provide us with closed
    door offices since i came abroad but no body listens. to do real heavy 
    duty coding one needs quite, just like in chess, one cant think with 
    noises around the place, the best way is to get us offices with doors 
    so we can close the doors and code and think and scream and take a nap and 
    design and all in peace and tranquillity and without being disturbed by 
    other people talking.

    what is the point of asking because no one is listening any way.

    \bye
    \nasser

    Ever hear of ear plugs?  The wax ones work real well...
    

There was an article in the New York Times (25-Apr) regarding Apple's new R&D
office space. Seems that they discovered that engineers wanted quiet in order
to concentrate. So, the building design now gives the engineers closed offices
with windows to see into a common area (in case someone interesting passed by,
I guess). The common area has couches, porcelain boards, coffee stations, etc.
Some of the senior management was so taken by the new design that they claimed
sections of the building before engineers could move in. 

    
    
    interesting line of discussion....
    
    in phone support, (only in Colorado), we've just reduced cube sizes
    DOWN from 8X10s each to two people in a 12x10 in order to be able to
    rent out our space to other folks to save money......
    
    I guess phone support folks don't NEED to concentrate  ;-)
    
    Oh, we are being told that the new corporate guidelines state this
    new 2 folks X 12X10 for everyone as standard new cube sizes
    
    It must be true since that's what we've been told....

    i'll never , i say ever share a cube with any one, i for one
    need my little space around me, iam a Aquarius, and Aquarius people
    need more aura space than others, plus how can any one concentrate with
    some one so close to them? this is insane to do, save few bucks on
    space and reduce productivity by hundreds of bucks! 

    why dont we just stick 4 DECeeees in one cube, put one DECeeee in each
    corner, this way we save more space and more bucks!

    plus, we need to talk about having access to windows and seeing the
    outside, studies have shown that if you work near a large window
    with view to the fresh air and green plants you do much better job
    and ideas flow more free in your brain.

    we need in DEC to make a committed to investigate this matter and make
    recommendations to the appropriate channels of authority .

    \nasser

    Re; .5
    
    	>>>>> in phone support, (only in Colorado), we've just reduced cube
              size DOWN from 8X10 each to two people in a 12X10 in order
              to be able to rent out our space to other folks to save
              money.......
    
    	Who are you renting space to ?
    
    	Do you know if the gossip around (that DEC plans to spin-off CXO)
        is true or not ?
    
    	How much space have you rented....one building, half..etc. ?

RE: .6

> ...  iam a Aquarius ...

Really?  I thought you were a Dingbat.

Al

>         <<< Note 2476.6 by STAR::ABBASI "iam in my mid-life crises" >>>
>                    -< how many DECeees can fit in a cube? >-
    
>    why dont we just stick 4 DECeeees in one cube, put one DECeeee in each
>    corner, this way we save more space and more bucks!
    
    They do do this in the field (I saw such a setup in Dallas) though in
    the case I say, yh cubes were a little larger.
    ...
>    \nasser
    
    	\bill (whu spells checks)

Radio Shack sells a battery-powered device which monitors the ambient noise
level and flashes lights and/or sounds a beep when the noise level gets
too high.  I don't know if the sensitivity is adjustable.  My supervisor had
one in her office for a while, as one of my co-workers was just a bit too
loud a bit too often.  But it proved more of a distraction than the noise
itself.

I've sometimes found that a well-aimed rubber band can work wonders.

				Steve

    RE: .7
    
    >>>>> in phone support, (only in Colorado), we've just reduced cube
          size DOWN from 8X10 each to two people in a 12X10 in order
          to be able to rent out our space to other folks to save
          money.......
    
    > Who are you renting space to ?
    
    Well, I don't think any of this is a secret, but...
    
    Other Digital buildings are being rented (entirely) to MCI.  The
    DEC employees from at least one of these other buildings are moving
    to CXO3 to clear out the building so that MCI can pay us rent (while
    we have those DECcies here with us.)
    
    So *only DECcies* are in our building, but we get rent from MCI for
    the building some DEC folks were in (before moving in with us here.)
    
    > Do you know if the gossip around (that DEC plans to spin-off CXO)
    > is true or not ?
    
    I haven't heard such rumors here (and my group just finished doing
    approx. 20-30? internal hires, so you might say our business is
    booming at the moment.)  I don't think we're still hiring, tho, BTW.

     <<< Note 2476.9 by STAR::PARKE "True Engineers Combat Obfuscation" >>>
                       -< It's already done, shhhh.... >-

>>         <<< Note 2476.6 by STAR::ABBASI "iam in my mid-life crises" >>>
>>                    -< how many DECeees can fit in a cube? >-
    
>>   why dont we just stick 4 DECeeees in one cube, put one DECeeee in each
>>    corner, this way we save more space and more bucks!
    
>    They do do this in the field (I saw such a setup in Dallas) though in
>    the case I say, yh cubes were a little larger.
    
    Here in our MCS (old Field Service) office we have 6, Yes six, per
    12x12 cube.
    
    Brian 

    Re: .11
    
    	We have heard that Sony or some other Japanese Company is
    interested in renting space there in CXO.   We also heard or has been
    rumored, that this same company is very interested in acquiring some
    of our Disk/Tape manufacturing capacity.
    
    	Now, let me be very clear....ONLY RUMOR - UNCONFIRMED !!!!
    
    	If you hear anything, let us know.
    
    	BTW, thanks for sharing the information about MCI.
    

	Golly Steve, you stole my response....

Yes, the Radio Shack, Noise Alert; cat# 60-2210, does have a 'volume switch'.
But at its top setting the hummmm of a VAXstation may set it off.   I used
this device on a project to gain some peace and quite.

A more effective technique we used was a declared "non-interuption" period.
During the declared time anyone attempting an interruption could/would be
ignored.   It took a while to work things out (building A declared mornings 
and building B declared afternoons...go figure), but it was effective at
allowing us to get things done.

    Sharing cubes!?!
    
    Here in Burlington we've got  200K+ sq. ft. for the two dozen or so of
    us (and dropping steadily...) that are left.   Hell, we can make our
    cubes as big as we want!
    
    Larry

    Here we have 4 per cube too and I am told UK is worse in some
    buildings.However,the tried and tested and only way to get his changed
    is to quit.No other method of getting attention has been known to work.
    
    Sad but true...

Anyone got any other suggestions about how to create a 'public library'
environment at work? I find my most productive moments are spent either
at home or after working hours (ie, all the times I'm not paid for). 

(Getting better offices with doors isn't usually an option!)

Dave

    re: .3
    
    "Hear of ear plugs"????? Say what.....Oh..O.K. now, I took the ear
    plugs out. Nope, haven't hear about those wax type of ones.
    
    Marc H.

    .17

    it is hard to  have open cubes then ask DECeees to be quite, it is human
    nature to talk once in a awhile, and for the coffe machines to make
    that bubling noices and all, that is why offices with doors are
    nice, you can go to your DECeeee colleague office to discuss a
    pertinent problem , close the door and talk as loud as you want without
    disturbing other DECeees deep in concentration on their own work.

    i heard from a very reliable source DECeeee that SUN and APPLE are
    changing to offices with doors and i also hear that Microsoft have
    offices with doors too.

    how about if we put a roof over our cubes as they are now, do you think
    that will improve the noise reduction levels? 
    
    \bye
    \nasser

I, for one, DON'T want a "library" environment.  I work better when there
is some low level of ambient noise.  I admit that some things are distracting,
such as someone humming in the next office, but generally my mind tunes it
all out.

Some people wear hearing-protector headsets which cut out the noise, I would
recommend this if it really bothers you.  Of course, if there is a serious
problem in your area, you should take it up with your supervisor.

			Steve

    Earplugs? Hearing-protector headsets?
    
    Naaahh.... all I need is a set of bullsh*t deflectors!!!
    =8-)
    Flying Dutchman

    
    Our team (In Colorado CX03) has implemented a work from home program.
    Over half of our team works permemently from home and comes in once
    every two weeks for a one hour team meeting.
    We have team members who work from remote sites and that number is
    increasing.
    
    It would seem that is anything, it should be even easier for folks
    who write code for a living to work from home then it is for folks
    doing phone support, and it works GREAT for us!
    
    Our productivity is at least as good as it was from the office, and we
    don't get customer complaints about too much background noise! 
    Less air pollution from driving too and from work, not to mention
    not racking up those miles on the car! Insurance is lower cause
    distance traveled to work is lower. We are even looking into the
    possibility of tax breaks for using a room in your home for business.
    
    And digital saves on the cost of having employees at work (like toilet
    paper etc.!!!!! ;-)  
    
    But..I for one...LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    cat

    
    
    ..some of the other advantages??
    
    No more cafeteria food....I'm eating better for less!
    No wardrobe costs..I can sit around in sweats all day!
    Don't have to freeze my butt off in the morning or scraping snow off of
    the windshield!
    Don't have to risk a rough winter drive into work.
    
    There's alot more advantages..I'll post em as I think of them.
    
    The DISadvantages?
    I don't get to spend the social time with the folks I work with, but we
    do try to do after hours get togethers on occasion, and talk on the
    phone alot...and have learned to resolve most issues thru mail.
    
    (by the way, in case you're wondering why I'm in notes instead of
    working, I'm doing a search in another session while I'm writing
    here...so I AM working!)
    
    cp
    

    to work from home for real, one needs a workstation, and it has to be
    set up as a node on the network too, one also needs a good printer
    and extra telephone line to call while the first one is used by the
    data communication, other than that i think it is good idea too.

    but there are few jobs that can be done from home, like programming
    and writing proposal and stuff, systems support, etc.. can't be done
    from home, one needs to be in the lab for that.

    coding on a terminal at home is no good.
    
    \bye
    \nasser

What equipment you need at home depends on what you are going to be doing 
there.   For most things, any old PC,  no network connection, is just
fine.  Just a 9600 bps modem.   Transfer a file, hang up, and edit away.
When done, send it back or bring it in on a floppy the next time you
come in.

It works for me.  But I don't have to debug kernel-mode stuff.

    I worked at the telephone support center in Colorado Springs in
    the good old days.  We did not OFFICALLY work from home, but I did 
    it all the time.  I did after hours and standby, and of course,
    BLIZZARD coverage.  I had 2 phone lines and a VT100 and 1200 baud
    modem.
    
    It worked fine.  I loved it.  The customers got good service, my kids
    got use to beepers, and the standby money was Very Nice.  I could 
    work in my bathrobe and fuzzy slippers, drink my own coffee, and raid
    the frig when I wanted.  I would gladly go back to telephone support
    if I could (did you say you were hiring???)
    
    Judy
    

    re: needing a workstation:
    
       Actually, there are multisession terminal emulator programs for
    MS-Windows (WinVT) and the Macintosh (Whack) now which both use
    multisession capabilities built for the vt-3xx/4xx series terminals to
    multiplex multiple terminal windows over a single dialup connection.
    
       Combine these with a 9600-baud modem, and you've got a decent
    working environment from home without a whole workstation.
    
    					-mjg

    
    
    actually, I  have been working from home for over a month now.
    I have a vt220, and a 2400 baud modem. 
    I have a la75 which I seldom use.
    I have three phone lines.
    
    I dial into a terminal server at work and have access to the biggest
    network in the world! I can bop around between 6 lat sessions and
    get to whatever network configuration imaginable. 
    
    I can fax things to customers with fax.com utility. 
    I can send patches over the internet or thru the new patch utility. 
    I can dial into customers systems. 
    I have my work phone forwarded here, so I can get live calls.
    My other voice line is so that people at work can reach me even when
    I'm on something else, or so that I can put a customer on hold and
    call up someone for assistance. 
    
    Some of the other folks have taken home their workstations and have
    configured slip lines that work pretty well. 
    I'll get around to bringing mine home too, when I buy a desk that will
    hold it!!! 
    The only time I've missed the worstation is when I get an MCC call. 
    
    By the way, I work in the Open Systems Networks group. We support (as
    the title would imply) networks for VMS, Ultrix, OSF, etc. etc. etc. 
    
    Works for me!
    
    cp

    Everyone quit whining.  I am on site at one of our large telecom 
    customers developing software to manage their network.  They have
    recently put all of the contract support people three(3) to a 15 x 9
    cube and the cubes are only chest high and there are 3 drawers per
    person and not shelves.  They pay a premium rate for consultants, 
    stick 'em in this environment, and expect maximum code output.  
    They must be rich to be pay the kind of money they pay consultants 
    and put them in an impossible environment where output is minimal.
    I like loud noise as much as the next guy but, when one person has
    a visitor in the cube screaming at him over his shoulder while they
    are stepping in the debugger and the other guy is in an argument with
    his girlfriend on the phone, and you can hear all the other cubes
    around you because the walls are so low, I start to have a 'slight'
    dropoff in my level of concentration.  I wonder if AT&T and Sprint
    are this clueless.
    
    bill k

.-1
    good point.
    
    and why do the whole of DEC have to know about my stigmatism when i
    talk to my opticians on the phone just because we dont have closed
    offices? i mean i dont want any one to know about this, so why do i
    have to give up such personal and private informations pertinent to me
    and me only?

    i mean i might as well wear a T-shirt with big words "look i have
    stigmatisms" and parade around the facility with it or something.

    even though my astigmatism is not bad or anything still i think i want
    when i talk to my private family physicians to keep my eyes and what
    goes between us just to us alone!

    \nasser

    I don't think someone who informs the world that he's
    suffering a mid-life crisis (just how old *are* you, anyway?)
    would care if we all knew he's astigmatic.
    
    Come to think of it, if you don't want the world to
    know about it, posting .30 wasn't a good move...
    

    .-1
    
    >I don't think someone who informs the world that he's
    >suffering a mid-life crisis (just how old *are* you, anyway?)
    
    hi Dave !  
    
     it is an early form of mid-life crises. iam thirty something but dont 
     look a day older.
    
     i have to think about the second issue you raise, you might have a good
     point there.
    
    talk to you later !
    
    \bye
    \nasser
    

    Here in Switzerland, Bern we have open offices and we hear all. I had
    to learn to ignore the noise. It was not easy but you learn.
    Good luck.
    Ruth

>    Here in Switzerland, Bern we have open offices and we hear all. I had
>    to learn to ignore the noise. It was not easy but you learn.
>    Good luck.
 
	I can switch of a lot of everyday background office noise like,  
	chatting, phones, keyboards, bleeps.......

	What does interrupt, is something that is not the noise that you are 
	used to switching off to, like
	Voices at a different pitch eg, kiddies, someone who is angry, somone 
	cutting the grass outside, security men speaking into their radios.

	Then there's the noises you never switch off too. like
	Do you want a cup of tea?

	Heather

    
    
    it's REALLY quiet here in my office at home...
    except for those birds outside my window...  :-)
    
    

    It seems only reasonable to me that employees should make more noise
    when the company takes a whack at reducing their cubes.  (Um, maybe I 
    should rephrase that ...)
    
    Steve

    re .35
    
    ahhh...  shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    ;-}
    
    Actually, it is fairly quiet here too.  That's because there are so 
    few people left.
    
    Judy

    
    
    re Judy
    
    
    sorry  ;-)

    re:  .19   ...+/-..put a roof over the cube...
    
    	Ouch my head, I'm 6'3".
    
    re:  .30   Hey everyone, guess what I just overheard...\nasser has a
    stigmatism.
    
    re:  .35  Either a cat or a hunting license will reduce your noise
    level outside your window.  Careful, the bang might set off a noise
    detector.
    
    @@
     >
    \_/

    I hate it when it is TOO QUIET!  Sometimes I'm not even sure if my
    group is still there unless they have keyclick on. 
    
    I like to have some noise. Especially music.  Laughter is nice too. I'll
    settle for the ventilation system in a pinch. 
    
    I have started working from home part of the time, and I really like
    working to a soca beat. Definitely improves my productivity compared to
    working in my *yawn* silent cubie. I find that lively, especially,
    instrumental music really gets the brain to send the fingers flying
    across the keyboard. Sometimes lyrics interfere, unless it is a song I
    know by heart. 
    
    YMMV.
    
    		--Catherine--* 
                  

    
    	Judy,
    
    	If you're even semi-serious about coming back to the CSC, send
    	me mail off-line.
    
    	jayna
    

RE .27 - WinVT being a multisession terminal emulator using
TD/SMP to allow multiple sessions over a single serial
line -

Where can I get WinVT? Is it a shareware or publicly-available
program or a commercial product?

I've seriously considered writing my own, as I have all
the TD/SMP info I'd need. (I wrote multiple session support
for Ultrix, many years ago, but it got lost in management
limbo. Last I knew, it did not work anymore, as it was
written for Ultrix V2.0) Obviously if I did write it, I
would make it available internally. (I think I'd get into
trouble if I made it externally available.)

Steve Kovner

re .42
>>Where can I get WinVT? Is it a shareware or publicly-available
>>program or a commercial product?

Steve,

It is a Midnight hack (a very good one) by a Dec employee. To get the kit 
location and other interesting info check out the notesfile on SKIGOD::WINVT


rgds,

Greg

Anyone read "Peopleware" by Tom DeMarco and Tim Lister?

Both are first-rate experts in software development productivity.

"Peopleware" makes a very clear and convincing case for increasing productivity
of "thought" workers (those who have to concentrate closely on thinking about
how to do something, like design software) by providing a quality environment.

Quality environment:
	Quiet (occupants determine their own "noise")
	Private, but communal space available
	Near to other team members 
	Doors and full walls
	Windows, and/or direct access to outside
	No phones, or phones can be disabled
	Customized to the individual, not standardized

This isn't their personal opinion or conjecture. This is research results.

Further, they point out that the cost of the environment for a worker is
typically 2-5% of the burdened worker cost (salary, benefits, occupancy, etc.)
but having a bad environment can make a worker 50% or more less effective.
So providing a lousy environment is in effect throwing away 30-50% of every
thinking person's time, and simultaneously almost guaranteeing that the work
produced will be of poorer overall quality. 

Re: .44:

   Yes, I read most of it one evening.  The correlations between work
environment quality and productivity were amazing!  And like you said, they
were research topics, not "a bunch of spoiled engineers whining".

   Everyone should read it, and more importantly, should get their
management to read it.  (Apply transitive closure to this principal where
possible.)

   Personally, I'd settle for getting rid of the LG02 outside my office and
getting a nice chair, my CD player has adequate volume through the headphones
to make up for any other environmental noise... ;-)

					-mjg

    Complaints about 4 to a cube, sheesh.
    
    Here we boast of having 16 engineers in each cube!
    
    And we ... used to live in the bottom of a lake... We used to have to
    get up every morning, cleanout the lake, eat a lump of dry poison, and
    when we got home, our dads would slash us to bits with his belt!
    
    WE used to live in an old shoebox in the middle of the road! We had to
    get up every morning, cleanout the street and when we got home our dads
    would eat us and spit us out!
    
    YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD IT BAD! We had to...
    
    Seriously the part about working at home and saving company expenses
    like toilet paper just about made me die laughing. Heaven forbid that
    the company should lose money on toilet paper! Now THAT is an expense
    worth saving especially with all the dung that hits the fans in the
    offices.
    
    (Hey maybe there is extra office space by using the toilet stalls
    especially since everyone is at home using their own toilet paper.
    Imagine that, toilet paper in every employees "cube", think of the
    applications!)
    
    Tom
    

    re .44;
    
    This is really nothing new.  IBM did a similar study, specifically
    targetting S/W engineers back in the early '70s with similar results. 
    It was used as the design base of one a major S/W Eng. facility they
    built at the time.
    
    Here at Digital (either the old or the new) a corporate culture of
    "visible frugality" has tended to pre-empt serious discussions of working
    conditions.
    
    \dave

    re.46
    � Seriously the part about working at home and saving company expenses
    � like toilet paper just about made me die laughing. Heaven forbid that
    
    Only SAVING toilet paper! That's not good enough, you've gotta do
    better than that. Over here in Sales and Sales Support, you are
    required to buffer all PURGE jobs till we are at a customer site. They
    are then executed, saving toilet paper and water for Digital. Before
    you leave, always bring back a couple of rolls of toilet paper to
    contribute to Digital's inventory, for the use of the professional
    meeting attendees. I hear that sales even carry a quota on that ...
    
    ;)

    Gee.... maybe that's an idea... Digital could print adverts on the TP.
    
    a big 8^) on that one..!!!
    

    Offices...
    
    Because the local branch, wanted to push us out, the project team that
    I am on, is now in a brand new, 30 floor office complex. Its got 5 star
    restaurants just outside the front door, a panoramic view, marble
    foyers, leather sofas for relaxing in to think. and so on and so
    forth.
    
    And to top it off, becuase of the recession and the glut of Central
    Business District offices, we are actually paying less that for the
    grungy old DEC office over the other side of the city, (two floors),
    view of a railway bridge, and factories...)
    
    
    q