Conference 7.286::digital

    Does the cafe sponsor coffee machines as they have in the past?
    
    -sandy
    

    i like coffee clubs too, the coffee club i get my coffee from here in ZKO
    they have nice flavors of coffee like cinnamons and hazelnuts and
    mountain cream and these things you dont get from the DEC cafeteria
    down below, plus like .0- said DEC cafeteria closes and you need coffee!
    so what do these people who took your pot away expect? you work with no
    coffee or something?

    i support .0 in asking to for their coffee pot and the coffee club, i
    think coffee clubs serve a social purposes as well where you sometimes
    chat with your fellow DECeees when making your new pot and that helps
    to keep the spirit of the team and corporation between all DECees alive and
    well too.

    i always have strong emotions when it comes to coffee and coffee pots 
    being taken away from fellow DECeees. 

    long live coffee clubs, long live coffee in DEC, long live freedom to
    drink coffee in DEC.

    \nasser

    Re: .0:
    
       We in Stow have the same restriction, and as I understand it, you
    just have to have a industrial-grade coffee maker.  Before I joined the
    group, someone invested in a big Bunn coffee maker, and we're blessed
    by the LAPD or whatever they're called.
    
       However, when our Bunn was broken, I brought in a Braun from home
    and couldn't use it because it's not industrial grade.
    
    					-mjg

    We also found out we could use an industrial-grade coffee
    machine.  We'll look at this as an option.  It will probably mean
    the merging of several different clubs since it's a little much
    given the size of our clubs.
    
    Right now there are different groups with household coffee makers
    (and a few industrials) that cater to different tastes.  Mine
    deals exclusively in strong dark whole bean from the Coffee
    Connection.  Others handle decaf, flavors and the standard
    Maxwell house crowd.
    
    Chris

    
    	Boy, I'm tellin' ya..this topic ranks right up there with
    	layoffs and corporate reorgs in terms of importance!
    
    	;)
    	John

    Yeah, we use only an industrial coffeemaker too.
    Damn stuff is at least 90 weight if we make it right.
    Surely industrial-strength!
    	/john

        Re: .6

>    	Boy, I'm tellin' ya..this topic ranks right up there with
>    	layoffs and corporate reorgs in terms of importance!

        Since there has been at least one fire in the past year in LKG
        caused by a coffee maker, I don't find this topic trivial.  And,
        reading between the lines in the LAPM memo, the insurance
        company wouldn't pay claims for fires caused by `household use
        only' equipment.

        One solution, as mentioned in other replies, is an industrial
        coffee maker.  Some coffee clubs use these already.

        Another solution is to try to address the `overpriced burnt
        dishwater' mentioned in .0.  Obviously people purchase the
        coffee in the cafeteria, or otherwise it wouldn't be sold. 
        If it is so bad, why don't people 1) stop purchasing it, 2)
        complain to the cafeteria, and 3) complain to the Digital
        employee responsible for signing the contract with the
        cafeteria.  I have made numerous complains to many Digital
        cafeterias over the years and have generally had good result. 
        Surely the large number of coffee drinkers can have a big
        effect on the cafeteria.

        I use a different solution -- I don't drink coffee.

        					B.J.

    
    	re .8 <Fire hazards are important>
    
    	So there must be a 'safety' conference out there somewhere. 
        I thought this conference was dedicated to the Digital way of
    	working (ratholes excluded, of course).
    
       John

    Work with the local facilities people and get a good commercial grade
    coffeemaker that hooks up to the water line.  It's worth it, and we've
    found that the 25 cents per cup more than pays for everything.
    
    Mark

   >I thought this conference was dedicated to the Digital way of
    >working 

	Sure.  Doesn't the DEC way of working involve
	mainlining strong black coffee?

---

 I'm in LKG too.   I didn't mind so much that they insist 
 on Industrial Strength coffee machines, but they wouldn't
 let us use our expensive Russell Hobbs electric kettle 
 with automatic shutoff.  The result is that you can't
 get a good cup of tea anywhere in the building - I don't care
 what anyone says, you can't make tea with "hot" water, it
 has to be 100� C.

 Hmm, maybe I should complain that my diversity is insufficiently
 valued?

Contrast Digital's approach to coffee with Microsoft's where any and all
beverages (ie. all softdrinks) are provided to employees (all employees)
free of charge.

That is, as many drinks as an employee desires throughout a working day
can be had for the cost of a walk down the hall.  Their facilities
provide a wide variety of seltzers, juices, mineral waters, and gourmet
coffees as well as the usual assortment of soda-pops.

The polybrew access is particularly impressive to me when compared
against the well cooked brown stuff prevalent at most Digital locations,
for only 50�.

Now, some people might say they can afford such a luxury because they
are profitable.  Others might say they are profitable because they
provide this kind of benefit.  I know they're pretty proud of, and
willing to cite, the quantities of free beverages dispensed each year.

Regarding .0, I recommend you acquire a nice thermos.   I've seen only
the half measure of installing an industrial machine w/ no attempt to
provide a quality coffee.

Brew in Good Health,
Dennis

Re:            <<< Note 2409.11 by MU::PORTER "savage pencil" >>>

>				The result is that you can't
> get a good cup of tea anywhere in the building - I don't care
> what anyone says, you can't make tea with "hot" water, it
> has to be 100� C.

You're right, to a point.  Here in Colorado water boils at about 192�F (~89�C)
and we manage to get by... 

-  David

    Just to add a dollar value to the uSoft "free beverages" - the old
    Workstation Engineering Group in Palo Alto used to have that - juice,
    water, soft drinks, gourmet coffee beans (grind them to make a pot),
    tea, etc.  The cost, per year, for this group of 150-200 people was
    $50,000.  To extend that to all of DEC, at 90,000-100,000 people today,
    would be around $25,000,000 a year, not quite acceptable in today's
    financial situation.

How does Microsoft do it?



				Pay toilets.

That's why the woods around the Microsoft campus are so luxuriant.

But seriously, they seem to be in that phase of Computer Company
growth whereby working there is fun/addicitive, and employees are 
treated very well. Digital, Apple, and most of the other big 
companies went through those phases. 

	erik

RE: .16 From what I hear, Apple is still at that phase.

			Alfred

When Apple started laying people off, I got the feeling they were out
of that phase. But maybe they are hovering around the phase boundary.

	erik

>>	Sure.  Doesn't the DEC way of working involve
>>	mainlining strong black coffee?

	Didn't you know Dave? It's one of our Core Competenticies!

	I agree 100% with you on the tea situation.. If it's not
	boiling, I don't want to see it, no mind taste it. The
	same with some good English Cocoa. Puts the bloody 
	American crap to shame..

	Speaking of that, it's high time I got home and had a 
	cupper..

						mike
				Weaned on tea in my bottle as a child

    i think in America working environment the coffee is the more 
    predominating while in the British working environment the tea 
    is the one on the other hands.
    
    but the problem with tea served with boiling water not just lucked worm 
    water like it is now is that boiling water might cause fire hazardous 
    in the facilities and this is the quandary we are trying to fix to start 
    with. 

    plus have any one ever seen anyone eating a dunketts donuts with tea??
    i think tea is more picky drink to fit in the DEC work environment,
    plus i think coffee is a more practical drink any ways.

    \nasser

	Dunkin Donuts goes fine with tea Nasser.. But some nice pastries
	would be MUCH better..

	How is boiling a pot of water a fire hazard? There are plenty
	of pots out there that will boil water without blowing up.

	I would probably drink more tea if I could get boiling water
	in work.

							mike

Some folks I know around TAY brew tea the "old-fashioned" way.

They boil water in the microwave oven!  We have them next to some
of our industrial-strength Bunn coffee makers.

(Well, it's only old-fashioned in some oddball circles.) :-)

>They boil water in the microwave oven!  

    O'MIGOD! 

    isn't this dangerous too as far as the fire hazadarouse is concerned?
    what if the boiling water in the microwave oven starts splashing
    all over inside and drips into the circuitry of the oven that might causes
    a short circuit of some kind?

    i dont use microwaves ovens so iam not sure, but it sounds like
    something we need to be careful with with all the radiations they
    generate, i dont think it is worth it to get contaminated just
    for one a nice'hot'cup'a'tea.

    i think this is a very interesting discussion we are having, since it
    brings out both the human aspects of DECeees working environment and
    what ingenious means DECeees can go to to achive a more active with
    more prospective and relaxing environment for work in and beyond for
    all to enjoy and uphold.
    
    \nasser

>How is boiling a pot of water a fire hazard? 

No, Mike.  It's the boiling water itself that's a fire hazard.

Re:            <<< Note 2409.24 by MU::PORTER "savage pencil" >>>

>No, Mike.  It's the boiling water itself that's a fire hazard.

Yes, boiling water is well know to set things on fire all the time...  :-)

-  David

    
    We keep large boxes of matches around here. They're used to evaporate
    any boiling water presenting a fire threat. 
    
    J.B.

        Re: .21

>	How is boiling a pot of water a fire hazard? There are plenty
>	of pots out there that will boil water without blowing up.

        Not the way one of my friends (an ex-DECie) does it.  He has
        ruined numerous pots by putting water on to boil and forgetting
        about it.  When we lived together our default greeting was
        ``the water's boiling''.  He also managed to badly burn a batch
        of spaghetti.

        					B.J.

    nasser/
    
    Don't worry about the microwave causing a fire.  The magnatron will do
    fine heating up that water.  Now if the water is in a standard oven-top
    tea kettle...
    
    --- Gavin

	Ah yes, now I see.. I tried out an experiment today. I tried to
	really boil some tea leaves.. Much to my dismay, they set on
	fire.. I had to toss them out into the snow..

	Maybe I should try coffee.. It's much safer..

							mike

    
    Re. boiling water for tea:
    
    There's a new album out by the Masters of Reality (who now includes 
    drummer Ginger Baker) with a song about this subject, called T.U.S.A.
    
    "One thing in this country that really bothers me
     Is the inability of yanks to make a good cup of tea...."
    
    "'Pour boiling water over tea,' 
     How simple and clear can instructions be?..."
    
    "They bring you a cup with a lemon slice
     And and unopened tea bag beside it (how nice),
     And a pot of water and it may be hot
     but boiling it isn't so tea you have not..."

>Contrast Digital's approach to coffee with Microsoft's where any and all
>beverages (ie. all softdrinks) are provided to employees (all employees)
>free of charge.

In the Finnish subsidiary cafeteria coffee and tea are free (or at least
used to be, and still was last time I was there), as is what's in all 
machines (coffee, tea, softdrinks) around the office building.

...petri

re .11:

The fire at LKG1-2 was caused by a Russell-Hobbs electric tea kettle
with automatic shutoff.

Sigh.

    i really dont care for free coffee and tea, i mean DEC does gives other
    things , like DEC pays for your school courses for example, not allot
    of other companies do that, when i worked for EDS i paid my own way
    through school but EDS gave us free coffee, what a big deal! 

    as the old says goes "the house always looks more green in the other
    side of the street". 

    plus, if we had free coffee that will encourage people to drink more
    of it, and we all know that too much coffee  is bad for DECeeees, so
    may be this is for the best too.

    hope this helps
    \bye
    \nasser

re; .33 /nasser

    plus, if we had free coffee that will encourage people to drink more
    of it, and we all know that too much coffee  is bad for DECeeees, so
    may be this is for the best too.

I drink one or two cups of coffee a day to prevent the triggering of 
Migraines.  My son also suffers from Migraines and the doctors gave
him caffiene pills to take when an episode starts.  Coffee is 
beneficial to me (I don't suffer) and Digital (I am productive) when
I get my daily consumption.

Larry

    re:34
    
    Larry, though I do enjoy coffee I drink it for medicinal purposes
    as well. I suffer from Migraines and high doses of caffeine help 
    keep them at bay. If I feel a migraine coming on I take a cafergot,
    1 mg of Ergot and 100 mg of caffeine.  
    
    I have my own coffee pot which I am able to brew very strong coffee
    which the site doesn't offer. I guess if I had to retire the coffee
    maker I would brew at home and use a thermos but I'd rather not. I
    could also drink jolt or just take caffeine pills but the pleasure
    would be lost.
    
    Jim C.
    
    BTW - From what I understand caffeine can cause migraines in some
    people.
    

    Re: getting your own pot:
    
       I seem to recall that the cafeteria at the facility where I worked
    before coming to this organization was willing to supply the industrial
    grade coffee maker to us.  You might just ask your cafeteria manager,
    they might be able to help you out.
    
       Like another noter said, at 25� a cup, you could pay for the expense
    of the maker and still enjoy coffee a darned sight better than I've
    ever seen a DEC cafeteria deliver.  (we charge 25�, but that's because
    we buy Dunkin' Donuts coffee which is about the best damned coffee in
    the world... ;-)
    
    					-mjg

Re: <<< Note 2409.35 by ICS::CROUCH "Subterranean Dharma Bum" >>>

>    ...If I feel a migraine coming on I take a cafergot,
>    1 mg of Ergot and 100 mg of caffeine.  
             ^^^^^

Really? Is this a trade name for somthing?

Lee (who believes ergot derivitives are one of the reasons we have 'C'
     language today)

    Yes, Lee, that had me wondering too...  I seem to recall that LSD used
    to be derived from ergot spores?
    
    Dan (who agrees with your hypothetical etiology of C, but sez in its
         defense that it's at least designed to be potable (sic) code :-)
    

.35>    ...If I feel a migraine coming on I take a cafergot,
.35>    1 mg of Ergot and 100 mg of caffeine.  
             ^^^^^

.37>   Really? Is this a trade name for somthing?

.37>   Lee (who believes ergot derivitives are one of the reasons we have 'C'
.37>   language today)


Ergot.
ergo 'C'
Result = 20th Century Renaissance
'C' = Renaissance?
Naaaah!

Dennis

    Right you are, check out a Physicians Desk Reference. Ergot and
    LSD are very similiar, in fact they are side by side in the
    book. I was never into chemistry so I cannot comment further
    other than if someone messes up in the lab my pills could be
    quite interesting. ;-)
    
    Jim C.
    

re .36

>we buy Dunkin' Donuts coffee which is about the best damned coffee in
>    the world... ;-)

Guess you haven't been to Starbucks! or Peets :)

	erik

    re .36
    
    USUALLY, Dunkin Donuts is good coffee, although not up to a straight
    KONA.  However, something is lost in the Dunkin_to_MK1 translation. 
    The Dunkin Donuts coffee sold in their concession in the MK1 cafeteria
    is not even remotely the same tasting as that in their shops, nor as
    good as their blend when you grind and drip your own.  I enjoy good
    coffee.  If I must suffer brown colored water, I prefer the
    significantly cheaper Elkins blend that the cafe serves instead of the
    not_any_better_tasting DD concession coffee. Every now and then I give
    the DD a try ..... and I get disappointed.
    
    Then again, perhaps my taste buds have turned as grey as my hair.
    
    Just my opinion,
    Dave
    
    
    
    

    Tell the Littleton Area Property Management group:
    
    	1)  You are willing to work with them to bring the coffee
    	machine into compliance with fire, health, and other safety
    	regulations.
    
    	2)  If they confiscate your property, you will go to the
    	police and make a criminal complaint against them for theft.
    
    
    				-- edp

    >	2)  If they confiscate your property, you will go to the
    >	police and make a criminal complaint against them for theft.
    
    -- edp ! you must be pulling our feets here, you cant go to the police
    to complain against the facilities property management or other similar 
    entities in the DEC facilities! they are part of the law reinforcement 
    data structures themselves!

    plus, do you think the police will listen to a DECeee complaining
    to them about an internals conflict matter within the work place? i
    bet you the police will tell the DECeee that this is outside the police
    re jurisdiction into this and will send them back .

    \bye
    \nasser


    

    -- nasser! you must be stretching our legs hear, of course you can go
    to the police to complain against facilities proper management or other
    simian entitles in the DEC facilities!  Do you really think the DEC
    facilities are extra-territorial (like embassies? I've not seen a long
    black limo arrive at one for a long time and does DEC fly it's own flag
    at these places?  besides security does nut have blue lights on their
    vehicles, a sure sine) They may be part of the power strictures but not
    that closely related, is Littleton a banana republic (with all the
    snow)?
    
    /hi
    /s/ Jim WIlliams

    .45

    /s/ Jim WIllliams! i must say your rebuffle is good, but you missed
    a subtle points between the lines, i once read about these things and
    even though there is no legal definition distinction that relates the
    Littleton property and security management layout and the police 
    department into itself, there is that unseen bond that makes them 
    not want to interfere with the jurisdiction of each other working 
    surroundings.

    i once read that this is very important between the law reinforcement
    entities of all shapes and forms, you scratch my back here and i scratch
    you back there , type of thing, and i still bet you a whole dunketts
    donuts if some one does follow the  -- edp advice to complain about the 
    missing coffee pot to the police in Littleton , they will be rebuffled
    due the reasons i outlined above.

    plus, the DEC flag must fly over the facilities! every DEC facility must 
    have the DEC flag above it? 

    ps. why did you call Littleton a banana republic?, i worked in Littleton 
    my self, in the LKG facilities too, and i have special feelings to that 
    and its surrounding areas too.

    \bye
    \nasser

re .43 -- ever heard of "appropriate response" ?

I don't think they "confiscate" your property.  You can get it back any time
you want - you're just not allowed to use it on the premises.

    Considering there are strict regulations on the items you may bring in
    from home and that they must pass thru security first, had the rules
    been follwoed in the first place, this never would have become an
    issue.
    
    -sandy (who hid the popcorn popper in the bottom file drawer in LKG)

Re: 2409.35

    As I understand it, (and I don't profess to be medically 
    profficient) it isn't caffeine per se which causes migraine.
    As coffee itself as well as caffeine is a fairly powerful drug, 
    the two in combination are quite deadly and it is the lack of 
    consumption which causes the migraine, or if you like, drug 
    withdrawal symptoms. 

    In some cases, there is a REAL allergy to caffeine which can cause 
    symptoms such as migraine, but more often than not it is the "sickness" 
    you would feel in taking any drug and it is the combination of 
    coffee and caffeine which is most disrupting.

    Whilst taking homoeopathic remedies for example you should not drink 
    coffee, not even decaffeinated because it has such an effect on the 
    system, but you can continue to drink tea and eat chocolate which also 
    contain comparatively large quantities of caffein.

    As an aside a high proportion of migraines are triggered by psychological 
    events, rather than physical ones.

    Cathy

    No caffeine does not cause migraines. In some individuals it may
    trigger migraines, as do other foods like chocolate. As noted, stress
    and emotional triggers are also well documented.
    
    A migraine attack starts with a constriction in the blood vessels in
    the head (usually only one hemisphere is involved hence the name from
    the greek hemi - crania or half head). During this phase, the victim
    may experience visual effects (stars, temporary blindness, wavy
    vision), or auditory effects (deafness, buzzing), or in severe cases
    loss of consciousness. This phase lasts for 5-20 minutes in most
    individuals and is believed to be caused by lack of blood flow.
    
    The second phase follows where the blood vessels then dilate and
    harden. During this phase the victim will experience extreme pain, and
    unusual sensitivity to light and noise. This phase lasts from 5 minutes
    to several days.
    
    When I used to suffer these regularly the medicine of choice was
    CAFERGOT PB which was a mixture of Caffeine and Ergotamine HCL.
    Ergotamine, a derivative of the Ergot fungus, acts as a constrictor of
    smooth muscle especially peripheral arterioles. As noted before LSD-25
    is also a derivative of the Ergot fungus. Caffeine was used for its
    synergistic effect as a stimulant.
    
    The tendancy for migraines tend to be heriditary, and they are most
    common in late young adulthood.
    
    /jim
    
    It is my understanding that there even better drugs these days.

    RE.49
    
    Definately off the subject by the only ingestible that causes my
    migraines is red wine. The sulfates or some such thing. I have had
    migraines since I was 2 - 3 the doctors surmise. They are mainly
    caused by sudeen changes in atmospheric conditions, air pressure?,
    strobe light effect of certain lights. They are not caused by
    chocolate, caffeine, etc... This was determined long before I even
    tasted coffee, coke or whatever. There is no generalization in
    regards to migraines. 
    
    Jim C.
    

    
    
    One of the side effects of both caffeine and the ergot derivative
    include stimulation of "pleasure centres" in the brain.  There
    was some speculation that it might stimulate the production of
    endorphins and enkephalins - morphine-like substances that
    occur naturally in the brain and have some effect in reducing pain.
    
    regards,
    
    colin
    
     

Caffergot is still widely prescribed.  It must be taken at the onset
of the migraine for it to be really effective.  There is also a nasal
spray called Stadol that can be prescribed that is an Opiate.  
Research is underway looking for drugs to prevent the triggering
and Periactin and Pamelor are common although there is a new one 
becoming available (as in you can get a prescription filled) at 
the end of this month or early April.

A Doctor explained to me why caffiene helps prevent triggering for me.  
The Caffiene has a tendancy to reduce the viscosity of the blood
and hence reduce the effect of the constriction of the arteries.  I
still trigger occasionally as I triggered a beaut last monday 
afternoon.

Heredity - Migraine tendancies are a sex linked recessive trait.
the gene that controls this tendancy is found on the Y chromosome
but is missing on the X chromosome.  Therefore i got my tendancies
to migraines from my mother (and because she suffers, my brother
does also).  

Larry

    Yes I know it is a rat-hole but...
    
    We HAVE had two electrical...I guess smolderings is closer than...fires
    in LTN-2 this week.  Neither were caused by coffee pots.  One was a
    good old DEC built monitor and the second was the facility's WATER
    HEATER !!!  I am sure both of these were "industrial strength".
    
    Now, if we could just get the cafeteria's sometimes road tar and other
    times dish water coffee pot to self distruct there might be hope.
    
    /mj

Re:       <<< Note 2409.51 by ICS::CROUCH "Subterranean Dharma Bum" >>>

>    Definately off the subject by the only ingestible that causes my
>    migraines is red wine. 

>						They are not caused by
>    chocolate, caffeine, etc... This was determined long before I even
>    tasted coffee, coke or whatever. 

So how soon did you start drinking red wine?  :-)  :-)

-  David

    Based on the mail going by today, it looks like DECmodem V32 9600
    baud modems better be confiscated too.  

Re: .56

No, they can't (smoke when off).  They have to be on to smoke.  (But contrary
to the mail going around, according to the modem engineer I spoke with, there
is no fire hazard involved.)  People who are interested in this should see
SOLVIT::MODEMS note 1054.

			Steve

Re: coffee stations, etc.

Here at ZKO, we used to have personal coffee makers set up for coffee stations.
We were told we had to stop using these due to the fire hazard, but facilities
purchased Bunn industrial coffeemakers for each of the "kitchen" areas.  Our
group runs the largest coffee station in the facility, and the oldest to use
fresh-ground beans.  We currently have three commercial grinders (for regular,
decaf and flavored-decaf) and a five-pot simultaneous capacity.  Back when I
was running the station, a few years back, we would get over 200 customers
per day - it's more now, I am sure.

    
    RE: .53
    
    I watched part of a program this weekend on TV, and they were talking
    about something new for migraine's called EMATRIX (sp?).
    
    Ever heard about this one?  
    
    

This is the latest Migraine preventative to become available
as in this week.  Might be related to Ematrix, will have to check
into it.  The problem with Somatriptram (I hope the speeling
is correct) is that it can't be used with Cafergot, the most
popular of the migraine relief drugs.

Larry

I don't do the drugs, as I prefer to prevent migraines.  My son
does suffer some really wicked ones which is why we are learning
so much about whats on the market.

    
    
    	Back a few....Wanted to thank whoever mentioned that red wine
    	caused head aches.  I used to drink Gallo red burgandy all the
    	time and then quite suddenly every time I drank it it gave me
    	a wicked head ache.  Have tried it off and on since(this was way
    	back in the late 70's) and STIll get a head ache.  i drink
    	Gallo Chablis or blush Chablis with no problems at all.  Must be
    	something in the red wine???  It's unfortunate because I like the
    	taste of the bergundy...Fortunately I also like other wines...
    

    Re .60
    
    I seem, also, within the last five years, developed a sensitivity to
    	(read - get nasty migraines with moderate doses of)
    
    	1) Red wine (I love a good dry red, sigh)
    	2) Half bitter (Dark semisweet) high quality chocolate (pure, no
   		 extenders)  I seem to have little to no problems with
    		 milk chocolate (except canker sores if I go overboard)
        3) Most good Beers and Ales (though a few cause no problems).
    	4) Cheap Scotch (Though this juse reinforces my enjoyment of the
    		expensive single malts }8-)} )
    
    Makes me wonder if getting old and fat and approaching when I'll have
    time to enjoy the good things of life, if I'll be alergic to all of
    them.
    
    Sigh,
    	Bill

    	4) Cheap Scotch (Though this juse reinforces my enjoyment of the
    		expensive single malts }8-)} )
 

    Re .62
    	Didn't I include rot gut Scotch in the list }8-)}
    
    	(Too many people "like" Glen Livet for my taste)
    
    
    	Bill