Conference 7.286::digital

    	No you don't lose the package...although this rumor *did* circulate
    around here. I know people who scrambled for interviews, received real
    offers on paper and in Personnel in time...but then chose to take the
    package and run anyway.

    
    I have recieved two conflicting replies by mail.  One states that
    refusing an offer is equivalent to quitting.
    
    -Ed
    

    I know of 5 people in Services Finance that were given internal offers,
    for good jobs, and refused.  They went home last Friday with a smile
    and a Package from DEC.
    
    Better check with Personnel, if they are still around.
    
    Good Luck, you're lucky to have an option!!! (package that is).

    I received the package and my personnel rep, who is one fine woman!!!,
    told me flat out that IF I received an offer and refused it; it had no
    bearing on my getting the package deal.
    
    BTW, I got the written offer for another position at 4:23pm Friday the
    11th!
    
    Also, BTW, my old manager and his staff are the best; Isn't it funny
    that they had NOTHING to say or do with this; the decisions came from
    on high above - nor could they reverse the decision - no matter how
    hign they went.
    
    Also, BTW, I got my new position because of the GREAT recommendation I
    got from my old manager!  So, I'm obeying the call to "Go West, young
    man, go West!"
    
    	See ya, pardner!
    
    	Ron
    

RE: .4
>
>    I received the package and my personnel rep, who is one fine woman!!!,
>    ....
    
    I think you should either:
    
       a) redo your reply and omit the "fine woman" statement, or,
       b) get rid of the reply all together.
    
    The fact that your personnel rep is female and is attractive (in your
    eyes) is unnecessary and potentially offensive.  I don't think I *need*
    to explain any further.
    
                                                                  
    

    
    	re: -1
    	I didn't read the entry that way at all.
    	/john

    Re .5
    
    I think it is your reply that is offensive. The term "fine woman" is
    not perjorative at all nor does it say anything about how attractive
    the noter thinks the person is. In the context of the noters reply it
    is just saying (in my view) that he considers her to be doing a good
    (fine) job and he has respect for her.
    
    Now what was it that was going through your mind? Does this always go
    through your mind when people mention women?
    
    Dave

    re: .5
    
    When did the word 'fine' become so politically incorrect?  My
    dictionary fails to ascribe such a loaded meaning to it.  If 'fine
    person' would not be offensive in context, I fail to see how 'fine 
    woman' would be.
    
    Al
    

re .5
    
Actually, I THANK you for your comment!  It IS important and IMHO more
important for men to be careful with language that is felt in any way
offensive by women.  

Your comment reminds me of a required course I had at seminary when I was 
about half way through my Master Of Divinity degree.  All seminarians were 
required to take a three day course without credit on racism and sexism.  

At the end of the three days, when the one hundred or so of us were having
an open discussion of the things we had learned during this brief course, I
listened to a few comments, raised my hand and was called to speak.  I began 
referring to an earlier colleagues statement:

	"The comment that the girl over there on the other side just made
	 regarding ..."

What a lesson in humility I was now to learn as I got a spontaneous, rapid 
and heated firestorm thrown back in my face.

	"The G I R L !!!"

I was truly embarassed - and that was a GOOD thing - as it has helped me 
to be much more sensitive to this day.  Us men, well, at least MYSELF, are
often so used to referring to women as "girls", "ladies" and we often
don't think of how we'd feel if we're were referred to as "boys".

So, THANK YOU, and my better word could have been "person" in .4.

I didn't mention in my earlier note that this fine person also stayed at 
work on that Friday night until later than 7:15pm just so that everything
was done to insure that ALL things were in place so I didn't have to be
transitioned OUT of Digital.  Damn fine woman, damn fine person!  BTW,
that Friday night is when our area was experienceing a fierce Nor'easter
blizzard!

Now to REALLY blow you away (said in joking, ok?), when Monday morning came
I felt really good about all that this person had done for me and I went to 
her office and asked her if she accepted hugs.  She said she loves to 
accept them and to give them.  We hugged as an expression of joy for all
that had happened.  

After all, it IS traumatic to lose a job and it is also traumatic when
somebody does something so overwhelmingly good for and/or to you.

There exists within this notesfile many bashing-type comments regarding 
Personnel people.  My note beats to a different drum - and maybe -
just maybe I shouldn't have vented my anger by referring to others
in my subject line in .4 as "bean counters in Royal Robes".

	Regards,

	Ron

    Ron,
    I thank YOU for your reply .9 because I, like the person in reply .5,
    winced when I read your reply .4 .
    
    Big difference between "fine woman" and "one fine woman!!!"
    
    In writing, parenthetical expressions are meant to break the train
    of thought.  In conversation, when I hear "there goes one fine woman!!" 
    my head snaps to look.
    
    fwiw
    

	And folks wonder why DEC is in trouble..

							mike

    RE: .11
    
    Mike, it isn't just DEC it is the USA. People are too hung up on
    this PC business. Ron, thanks for your note, it was an inspiration
    to me. Good luck out west, wherever that may be.
    
    Jim C.
    
    

    RE: .11 & .12- And how!!!!  I've seen women refer to men as boys, guys,
    etc.  Ever hear of the good ole boy network?  I refer to females as
    gals and males as guys, you want to bring me to the authorities?  Knock 
    yourself out.
    
    Mike 

    .13
    
    Mikey, 
    
          Go bang your head.
    
    \nasser

    RE: .9
    
    Ron, thanks for the follow-up.  .9 is well taken.
    
    RE: .6,.7,.8
    
    I trust that you have read .9?  In any case rather than taking this
    note down a rat-hole, I've taken the issue off-line.
                                               

    .15               -< .9 - thank you, others - step outside >-

    iam not going to step outside, it is freezing out there!
    i think the temp. here in lovely Nashua tonight is down to 10 degrees
    kelvin, so you please step outside yourself, iam staying home where it is 
    worm and cozy.

    \bye
    \nasser

    naster-Go hug yerself!

    Why are you all taking the time to talk about this subject ?

    
    Because I need a break from looking at all the beautiful babes in the
    office 
    
    ;-)  ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    -Ed
    

    Who would bother.... This is somewhat off the subject of the orginal
    question.

Dear Thought Police,

  Please post all offensive phrases, words, and intonations so that we
poor neanderthals can avoid future land mines.

  People take offense more often than it is given.

Earl Sinclair

re: .21

What are you talking about?

Bob

.22>What are you talking about?

  Thought Police = self-empowered political correctness vigilantes

  If they post all the phrases, words, or intonation that would give
  offense, then maybe some innocent people wouldn't get beat up for
  using the offending phrases (aka land mines).  Go ahead and thump
  people who deserve being thumped, but using the phrase "one fine 
  woman" is not one that deserves a thumping.  It is a phrase that
  one must >find< an offense in.  Hence, my comment:

.21>People take offense more often than it is given.

Earl Sinclair = Dinosaur

Hey, you've got to expect some sort of discontinuity
when there's a 20-month hiatus in the reply stream.

You know something!?  I thought it was odd to see /nasser replying.

I wonder how my unseen map hit on this note? 

Oh.  Note .20 was recent.  I went to note .0 to see what the original
note was about, came across .5 and subsequent replies, and thought they
were recent.  My mistake.

So thump me one.

    Nah, I won't thump you.  I wanted to see what you were talking about.
    
    :-)

.21>   Please post all offensive phrases, words, and intonations so that we
.21> poor neanderthals can avoid future land mines.
    
    Your casual use of the term "land mines" is deeply offensive to those
    who have been injured or killed by buried ordnance.  Also, your use of
    the term "neanderthals" is offensive to our evolutionary predecessors. 
    Please be more sensitive in the future.
    
    
    
    8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) - for the humor-challenged 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
    

    Your use of the term "evolutionary" is deeply offensive to...well,
    you know.

Using language is deeply offensive to those that
can't.   In future, please just grunt and point.

[And you get the benefit that you'll be using an interaction
 style which is common in today's computer systems.]

Re: .28

You may have been trying to be sensitive by not naming the group you mentioned,
but I'm afraid that the denial of their identity did more damage to their
self esteem than you would have done by being explicit.

Tsk, tsk,

Dave
;-)

I'm afraid that pointing is highly ethnocentric behaviour.

You shouldn't assume that all the various peoples of the world signal things
the way you do.

Dave
;-)

I'm offended by the word "offended."

I have a right not to be -uh- that word.

And all this before the rest of the world rears its head (as it herewith
is doing).

Elsewhere in this notesfile is an amusing thread that got started out
when an MCS engineer said something about "shagging calls".  One of
my British neighbors wondered about that, since the verb "shag", in
British English refers to an activity that engineers are normally not
expected to engage in on site.  What if that had been somehow reversed?
Is America too "sensitized" to have seen the humor in the situation?

At any rate, Brits, don't go up to an American and offer to light his fag.

Steve (conveniently out of town til Friday)

> "British English"

Now I'm *really* offended by that.  It's just "English",
damn it.  The rest of you lot who speak languages derived
from English need a qualifying adjective, but the English
do not.  So there.

    > "British English"
    
    Perhaps "Queen's English", although that could be misconstrued on both
    sides of the pond :-)
    
    

    Or idomatic east side of the pond english vs. idomatic west side fo the
    pond English?

ALL English is accented.  There is no "Academie" English (despite agitation
for such an agency as recently as the reign of Charles II).  This is a
strength.

Anyway, I don't know how a Brit can insist that his version of the language
he sent out into the world so successfully is in any way standard.  My own
observation is that every Briton has his own private accent, which may be
more or less similar to that of his friends and neighbors, depending on
geography, social class, school attended, etc.  I LOVE the infinite
variety of our tongue, and find nothing more entertaining than eaves-
dropping on conversations in pubs, bathing in the language.  Some of
the sounds are glorious beyond the imagination of us poor Yanks.

Is it in Luton that "No" has about four syllables?

Steve

Is "Shagging Calls" better or worse than "Servicing Customers"


?


David

Re:  Taking offense at the phrase "British English"

I beg to differ.  English, as spoken in Great Britain, has evolved considerably
since the late 1600s, when we spoke the same way on both sides of the pond.
It has evolved in a very different direction in the USA.  Canadian English
is, of course, at least 2% different from American English ;-)

Today, no one dialect of English can lay claim to the title "English" to 
the exclusion of the other dialects, 'enry 'iggins comments notwithstanding.

There is widespread agreement among linguists that, of the dialects of English
still in use today, the one that most closely resembles Elizabethan English
is a dialect spoken in parts of North Carolina.   Would those people have
a prior claim on the name "English" without a qualifier?

It's been said elsewhere in this conference:  more offense is taken than
is given.

Dave

    Just call it OpenEnglish ...

.39

Actually, Dave, I didn't think he was taking offense, I thought he was
being wry.

See, that's just what I meant in the reply that started this subthread.
It seems Americans not only take offense more easily than others, but
they are more likely to perceive others as having taken offense.

I've obviously been over here so long that I've totally lost touch.  I'm
going to be in LA next month on vacation [holiday :-)], and I'm afraid
I'll be frosting someone off about every half hour.

What was it W. S. Gilbert said?  "Just because I said I like your ruddy
countenance, doesn't mean I like your bloody cheeck."

Steve

    Re .37
    
    >Is it in Luton that "No" has about four syllables?
    
    As someone who lives near Luton I'd make the following observations
    about the Luton accent.  First, I've not heard 'no' pronounced with
    more than one syllable.  At the basic level it tends to be 'naaah'.
    
    For other words you'll find the accent suppresses the hard consonants
    (d and t).  But then you have to add of the one of the cultural accent
    attributes of either the Punjabis, Bengalis, Italians, Irish or Polish.
    
    Also, Luton has a (?the only UK) Macdonalds which uses halal meat.

Re: .41

Hey, if he can be wry, I don't see any problem with me being ham!

(or maybe the in jest nature of my response also got lost!)

Good luck in LA!

Strictly speaking, .42, I should have said "quadriphthong", if there is
such a word.  A friend of mine lived in Luton for a number of years (he is
now in Antwerp), and when I last saw them, it struck me that his 7-year-old
daughter's pronunciation of "No" was something like

		Naaa-ai-ee-u

which he (originally from Birmingham) thought terribly amusing and I found
quite breathtaking.

Steve

Hey my daughters are reaching the age where they can make the word
"dad" sound polysyllabic, and it isn't done with dipthongs, either!

Dave

    No pronounced as something like:  Naaa-ai-ee-u
    
    could well be the hybrid product of combining "Birbigum wiv Lu'on"
    during the 7 year-old's upbringing.
    
    It should also be pointed out that as you move around in Luton there
    are tremendous variations in the accents heard.

    Re: .40
    
    > Just call it OpenEnglish ...
    
    Oh no, let's not. If we do that, it'll get hijacked, standardised
    (standardized) and we'll all be speaking French next year.

> See, that's just what I meant in the reply that started this subthread.
> It seems Americans not only take offense more easily than others, but
> they are more likely to perceive others as having taken offense.
    
    "I realize this is a sweeping generalization, but as is usually the
    case when I generalize, I don't care."
    
    				-- Dave Barry

RE: a few back... what the heck is halal meat (as served at a
MacDonalds)?

Thought I'd share part of this. Saw it in another conference. I've
snipped off the top and bottom, but the rest is faithfully reproduced for
your noting and offending pleasure:

======================================================================
       I got a call from personnel stating that they had taken down
       the ad for my house, because two people had complained
       that it was offensive.
                       
       The "offense" was that the ad contained a picture of our
       attractive real estate agent next to the words "Nice house with
       large bedrooms."
                
       These complainers felt that the wording was suggestive.
        
       I forgot, you're not supposed to mention bedrooms when trying to
       sell a house, especially if you're attractive.
                
       Kinda makes me wonder if these people have too much time on their
       hands!
======================================================================
       

...no doubt about it!              

    We could call it English++, as long as no one is likely to object.
    
    :-)
    

    That has to be the worst pun I've ever read.  Go punch yourself three
    times.  Ugh!

    RE .51
    
    Praise indeed! What punishment!

> RE: a few back... what the heck is halal meat (as served at a
> MacDonalds)?

Meat from animals slaughtered according to Moslem law.

Yoiks!  All this from "one fine woman"!?!  I apologize for those giving and
taking offense as a result of some unadvised reaction of mine.

As for the subthread, you blokes who really need to know the history of 
the English language: this was sent my way some time ago.  I didn't
write it, but someone did.
-----------------------------------
The History of the English Language

Owen Alun and Brendan O'Corraidhe

In the beginning there was an island off the coast of Europe.  It had
no name, for the natives had no language, only a collection of grunts
and gestures that roughly translated to "Hey!", "Gimme!", and "Pardon
me, but would you happen to have any woad?"

Then the Romans invaded it and called it Britain, because the natives
were "blue, nasty, br(u->i)tish and short."  This was the start of the
importance of u (and its mispronounciation) to the language.  After
building some roads, killing off some of the nasty little blue people
and walling up the rest, the Romans left, taking the language
instruction manual with them.

The British were bored so they invited the barbarians to come over
(under Hengist) and "Horsa" 'round a bit. The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes
brought slightly more refined vocal noises.

All of the vocal sounds of this primitive language were onomatapoedic,
being derived from the sounds of battle.  Consonants were were derived
from the sounds of weapons striking a foe.  "Sss" and "th" for example
are the sounds of a draw cut, "k" is the sound of a solidly landed axe
blow, "b", "d", are the sounds of a head dropping onto rock and sod
respectively, and "gl" is the sound of a body splashing into a bog.
Vowels (which were either gargles in the back of the throat or sharp
exhalations) were derived from the sounds the foe himself made when
struck.

The barbarians had so much fun that decided to stay for post-revel.
The British, finding that they had lost future use of the site, moved
into the hills to the west and called themselves Welsh.

The Irish, having heard about language from Patrick, came over to
investigate.  When they saw the shiny vowels, they pried them loose and
took them home.  They then raided Wales and stole both their cattle and
their vowels, so the poor Welsh had to make do with sheep and
consonants.  ("Old Ap Ivor hadde a farm, L Y L Y W!  And on that farm
he hadde somme gees.  With a dd dd here and a dd dd there...")

To prevent future raids, the Welsh started calling themselves "Cymry"
and gave even longer names to their villages.  They figured if no one
could pronounce the name of their people or the names of their towns,
then no one would visit them.  (The success of the tactic is
demonstrated still today. How many travel agents have YOU heard suggest
a visit to scenic Llyddumlmunnyddthllywddu?)

Meantime, the Irish brought all the shiny new vowels home to Erin.  But
of course they didn't know that there was once an instruction manual
for them, so they scattered the vowels throughout the language purely
as ornaments. Most of the new vowels were not pronounced, and those
that were were pronounced differently depending on which kind of
consonant they were either preceding or following.

The Danes came over and saw the pretty vowels bedecking all the Irish
words.  "Ooooh!" they said.  They raided Ireland and brought the vowels
back home with them.  But the Vikings couldn't keep track of all the
Irish rules so they simply pronounced all the vowels "oouuoo."

In the meantime, the French had invaded Britain, which was populated by
descendants of the Germanic Angles, Saxons, and Jutes.  After a
generation or two, the people were speaking German with a French accent
and calling it English.  Then the Danes invaded again, crying "Oouuoo!
Oouuoo!," burning abbeys, and trading with the townspeople.

The Britons that the Romans hadn't killed intermarried with visiting
Irish and became Scots.  Against the advice of their travel agents,
they descided to visit Wales.  (The Scots couldn't read the signposts
that said, "This way to LLyddyllwwyddymmllwylldd," but they could smell
sheep a league away.) The Scots took the sheep home with them and made
some of them into haggis.  What they made with the others we won't say,
but Scots are known to this day for having hairy legs.

The former Welsh, being totally bereft, moved down out of the hills and
into London.  Because they were the only people in the Islands who
played flutes instead of bagpipes, they were called Tooters.  This made
them very popular.  In short order, Henry Tooter got elected King and
begin popularizing ornate, unflattering clothing.

Soon, everybody was wearing ornate, unflattering clothing, playing the
flute, speaking German with a French accent, pronouncing all their
vowels "oouuoo" (which was fairly easy given the French accent), and
making lots of money in the wool trade.  Because they were rich, people
smiled more (remember, at this time, "Beowulf" and "Canterbury Tales"
were the only tabloids, and gave generally favorable reviews even to
Danes).  And since it is next to impossible to keep your vowels in the
back of your throat (even if you do speak German with a French accent)
while smiling and saying "oouuoo" (try it, you'll see what I mean), the
Great Vowel Shift came about and transformed the English language.

The very richest had their vowels shifted right out in front of their
teeth.  They settled in Manchester and later in Boston.

There were a few poor souls who, cut off from the economic prosperity
of the wool trade, continued to swallow their vowels.  They wandered
the countryside in misery and despair until they came to the docks of
London, where their dialect devolved into the incomprehensible language
known as Cockney.  Later, it was taken overseas and further brutalized
by merging it with Dutch and Italian to create Brooklynese.

That's what happened, you can check for yourself.  But I advise you to
just take our word for it.

Copyright (c) 1994 Corrie Bergeron and Ben Tucker all rights reserved

Permissions:  This may be reproduced in SCA newsletters for non-
commercial purposes only.  (i.e., If you make any money off of it, send
us a cut. <g>)

Owen Alun is a wandering Cornish poet and harper whose travels have
taken him to EVERY group in the Northshield.  Ben Tucker helps keep the
St. Paul School District moving into the Information Age. (He recently
wired his elementary school into the Internet so the kids can get
on-line!)

Brendan O Corraidhe is a wandering Irish singer and storyteller.
Corrie Bergeron is the design coordinator for the next generation of
PLATO educational software.

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    re: -.49
    
    >   Kinda makes me wonder if these people have too much time on their
    >   hands!
    
    This type of person predominately lives in the great frozen NorthEast
    (reason enough to be surly) and apparently have memorized both
    Digital's "Policy and Procedures" as well as "Political Correctness...A
    Lifestyle Option".  Apparently, only their interpretation of either is
    valid.
    
    We have a phrase for it here in Texas...see the personal name, it
    explains it all. :^]
    
    							Tex

    
    This is all a long way from the base note, but ....
    
    I must confess to being delighted to see several major articles in the
    heavyweight dailies & Sundays over the past two weeks that are roundly
    condemning PC in its various abstractions. Leading academics, writers,
    & politicians are now becoming sirens to shout that PC is in danger of
    destroying/restricting democracy, not enhancing it.
    
    I though I was the last person in the UK to not be taken in by all
    this PC stuff, but other Luddites exist & are prepared to be stand 
    & be counted ........ (up to about 4 so far!)
    
    Of course, much of our language extension has been a direct result of
    lack of democracy (eg invasion, pillage, war), or from travel to
    different parts, as so delightfully depicted in -2....
    
    
    Colin

>To say that there is just one 'English' is rubbish if you are from England 
and garbage if you are from the new world. One could say that in England 
they speak 'old english'. Then again you can't go more than 20 miles in
England without finding another dialect so even the English can't claim 
there is one English. 

The phrase "Old English"  (or is it "Olde Englishe"?) has been in use
for centuries to describe the language that was in use before Middle
English.  I have never been exposed to Old English, but the people who
have tell me that I'd have as much difficulty understanding it as I would
with the Westron from Middle Earth.

I think it's unnecessary to reuse this phrase for a completely new purpose.
The phrase "British English" names the language well.  

Regards,
    Dave

    
 >  British English" names the language well.  
    
    Except that there is already a class of languages called "British" or
    Brythonic (Latinised from the Celtic "Prydain") that were in use for
    about 5000 years before those Saxons turned up.  ;-)
    

    Well, this big heavy English grammar (9"x17", 4-6 inches thick, if
    memory exaggerates appropriately) that I ran into in Blackwell's when I
    last visited Oxford seemed happy with "BE" and "AE" for British English
    and American English. If the author is willing to distinguish the two
    dialects that way, so am I. 
    
    After all, AE was derived from some BE speakers who were regarded as
    ne'er-do-wells by their neighbors and so moved over here to find some
    properly-cooked vegetables.

Do the Scots believe they speak British English ?

Re -1 Do Scots speak British English...

Reminds of the TV programme "It will be all right on the night" where an American
TV crew were in Peterhead ( some six miles from where I stayed ) and interviewed
a local fisherman who spoke broad Doric ( a dialect unique to the North East of 
Scotland from Aberdeen to Forres ).

The long and the short of it was that they gave up after not being able to
understand one word of what he said ( included 'Hey man, fit like'; 'foos you doos'
which roughly translates to Hello, how are you!! ).

The other side of the coin, though,

It has long been said the the people of Inverness speak the most proper Queen's 
English of anyone in the UK.

Like the previous replies, I honestly don't think that there is such commonality
in the UK to have a collective term 'British English' ( the same as I don't think
that there is a collective term of the various dialects of US English ) - it 
is only stated as such for convenience.

    isn't there a misspelling...
    
    it is not British, it is brutish 

I don't know how this rathole started ... but I'll join in anyway!!


I think the notion of 'British English' and 'American English' is quite valid.
"BE" is the main language in Great Britain, Ireland and Australia. 
"AE" is the main language in the USA and Canada. 

Both languages have regional variations but they are usually small variations
on the main theme. I.E American (AE) varies from region to region but you
could never confuse it with "BE". "BE" has variations but you could never
confuse it with American. 

An interesting question is: which language deserves to be called 'old English'?
In my opinion it fits American better than British.

The most interesting question is: which language best deserves the title
of "English" ?

Most Europeans, that speak any English, use British English. In Germany
it seems to be about 50-50 British/American. 

Mark

    There's two things involved in language variation:
    
    1. Dialect - thats the difference between London and Birmingham accents
    (and American for some if it).
    
    2. Word meanings - thats the difference between hearing the word and
    assigning a different meaning based on where you live etc. 
    
    Words such as 'rubber' have two really different meanings depending on
    which side of the pond you came from.
    
    Thats how this rat-hole started - its got very little to do with the
    'queens english' or 'american english' which is mainly dialect.
    
    lan

    This note *did* get me thinking about the differences between the two
    "languages" or dialects (and the similarities):
    
    1) pronunciation differences are vast, but primarily on vowel sounds;
    the consonants are similar, except where they vanish ("Lu'on" replaces
    a "t" with [I assume] a glottal stop).
    
    2) "function words" are identical (or nearly so), with assorted
    semantic differences that I don't know or can't list: these are words
    like "and", "in", "of", "her" (maybe), etc.  I can't remember the term
    for non-function words, but NF-words can be created or given extended
    meanings on a whim, and the result is still English: "Nuke the Jello
    after tea!", or "'Twas Brillig and the slithy toves...". 
    
    You can't create your own function words and still have an English:
    "Wpow et nak course fe human events, op becomes necessary ko..."
    becomes only a cryptogram.
    
    3) Most syntax is (therefore) similar: there are a few things I haven't
    caught on to, such as "The government are wasting..." vs. "The
    government is wasting...", which I believe is one difference, as is
    being "on holiday" or "in hospital", etc.
    
    4) as is the joy of travelers on both sides of the pond, vocabulary
    does some strange things, but the difference is only a hair greater
    than that between (say) Southern California (where I grew up) and
    Boston (where I went to college): "Put an elastic around this while I
    get a frappe and some scrod, will you?" was barely intelligible,
    even without the local accent.
    
    Well, perhaps we can leave the rathole sometime... ;^)

Re: .66

A side note with regard to "The government is" vs "The government are".

In the US, prior to the Civil War, the customary usage was to treat the
name (then called "style") of the country as plural, as in

	The United States are opposed to ....

After the Civil War, the usage changed to :

	The United States is opposed to ...

Talk about E Pluribus Unum!

(Source:  Southern historian Shelby Foote (last name?) in the documentary
'The Civil War')

Dave

Text by Jean Libman Block
Scanned (typos made by OCR :-)) with DEC Hard- and Software 

andre

Multi- national personnel at North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Headquarters 
near Paris found English an easy language until they tried to pronounce it. 
To help them discard an array of accents, the verses below were devised. 
After trying them, a Frenchman said he'd prefer six months' hard labour 
to reading six lines aloud.

Dearest Creature in Creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse
I will keep you, Susy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy;
Tear in eye, your dress will tear,
So shall I!! Oh, hear my prayer,
Just compare heart, beard and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain
(Mind the latter, how it's written).
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as vague and ague,
But be careful how you speak:
Say break, steak, but bleak and streak,
Clove, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, reviles;
Scholar, vicar and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone; Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Certrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Billet does not sound like ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet,
Blood and flood are not Hke food,
Nor is mould Eke should and would.
Viscous, viscount; load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward,
And your pronunciation's O.K.
When you correctly say croquet.
Rounded, wounded; grieve and sleeve,
Friend and fiend; alive and live;
Liberty, library; heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, mustache, eleven.
We say hallowed but allowed,
People, leopnrd, towed but vowed.
Mark the difference moreover
Between mover, plover, Dover;
Leeches, breeches; wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstnble,
Principle, disciple, label;
Petal, penal and canal.
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm; chaise, chaos, chair,
Scnntor, spectator. mayor;
Ivey, privy; famous, clamour;
And enamour rhymes with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home;
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour,
Soul but foul, and gaunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont; want, grand and aunt.
Shoes, goes, does; now fust say frnger
And then: singer, ginger, linger;
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury;
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth,
Job, job, bosom, oath;
Though the difference seems little,
We say actual but victual;
Refer does not rhyme with deafer,
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer;
Dull, bull; and George, ate, late,
Mint, pint; senate and sedate,
Scenic, Arabic, paciflc,
Science, conscience, scientiflc;
Tour but our and succour, four;
Gas and alas and Arkansas!
Sea, idea, gninea, area.
Psalm, Maria, but malaria;
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean,
Doctrine, turpentine, marine;
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and Battalion.
Sally with ally; yes, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, key, quay!
Say aver, but ever fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver;
Heron, granary, canary,
Crevice and device and eyrie;
Face but preface, and efface,
Phlegm, Phlegmatic; ass, glass, bass.
Large but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, but scourging,
Ear but earn, and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here, but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew, Stephen;
Monkey, donkey, clerk and jerk
Asp, grasp, wasp; and cork and work.
Pronunciation - think of Psyche!
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing `groats' and saying `grits'?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel,
Strewn with stones, like rowlock. gunwhale;
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.
Finally, which rhymes with enough;
Though through, plough, cough or tough?
Hiccough has the sound of `cup'-
My advice is: Give it up!

Having at least helped to start this rathole, I admit it was cowardly
to then up and leave town (but when stern duty calls...), but it's been
a lovely subthread indeed. .54 and .68 are both thoroughly delightful.
I had always considered Cable and Bough (or is it Bough and Cable) to be
the standard (American) work on the history of the language; it now re-
linquishes pride of place to .54; and .68 reminds me again to commend
our nonnative English language noters, who write on the whole very well
in our difficult tongue.

To .64 I would argue that there is no single "English".  Here in Germany,
they teach something they call "Oxford English" in the schools.  I tell
anyone who will listen that there is no such thing; that there is an
artificial language known as "Oxbridge", which is spoken by placing a
pear in your mouth; and that what they mean is a language called "Received
Pronunciation" or simply RP, which is essentially London/Home Counties
English stripped of regional and class effects.  Once upon a time it was
also called "BBC English", before the BBC sanctioned regional accents.
RP is a good least common denominator, understood by virtually any
English speaker anywhere (though spoken by very few indeed), but it is
no more "the one true English" than any other.

My German friends, whose own language is a compromise among a staggering
variety of dialects, generally do not believe that anyone would permit
a language to exist without scholarly regulation, but of course we English
speakers have resisted just that for many centuries.

Steve

    <.1>
    >by placing a pear in your mouth
    
    That I would like to see (and hear!). Shouldn't that be _plum_?

I printed out .68 and gave it to my father, whose native tongue is Spanish.
(I fixed all the typos I could first.) He wouldn't even try to read it aloud, 
but he did laugh a few times.
	One word stumped me too:

Refer does not rhyme with deafer,
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer;

What's a "Foeffer" ?  Is this another scanner typo?


Pilar.

    Re .71: I (waving my hands wildly) deduced that "Foeffer" was either a
    proper name I'd not encountered before, or a variant spelling of
    "pfeffer" (as in "hasen-"). Since neither of these are really "English"
    pronunciation at all, I have my doubts. If nobody has any better ideas,
    when I record my dramatic reading of the poem to present to my nephew
    and niece for Christmas, I may find a substitute word, just in case
    they ask any questions. [He's almost 5, she's 2 1/2; I don't know that
    they'll be all that fascinated. But I may as well try a little
    subversion while I have the chance. ;-)]
    
    -b

It's in my dictionary.  Spelled feoffor or feoffer.  Preferred 
pronounciation does indeed rhyme with heifer.  Means giver or grantor.

Ray