Conference 7.286::digital

    Best wishes from one of your colleagues in the States.  It's small
    consolation, but you are among many fine, dedicated folks who have
    been told their services are no longer needed.  I have been told that
    my date is in early December.  
    
    I wanted to reply now before we start our Thanksgiving Day holiday
    here in the U.S.  Good luck! 

    
    re: .0
    
    	What I'd like to know if you're still around is why your package
    is different from the one here in the states?  I thought the max. 
    package was 52 weeks plus unused vacation.  According to your figures,
    I'd get over 60 weeks (I've been here 16 years) without adding in any
    unused vacation under your plan.  Under the current plan, I get 31 weeks.
    30 weeks difference is quite a bit.
    
    	So, what gives?  Does it have something to do with the fact that
    you are not part of DEC-U.S.?  I have heard that DEC-Europe has offered
    different packages, but 30 weeks difference is quite a bit!
    
    	bill..g.
    

    >Does it have something to do with the fact that you are not part of
    >DEC-U.S.?
    
    	Everything.  The rules are different in different countries.
    
    					andrew

    The corporate rules are different in different countries.
    The cultural practices are different in different countries as well.
    
    It is probably the case that the U.S. has more conservative social
    policies (to really simplify: closer to the "Every man for himself
    attitudes") than any of the countries of Western Europe, or of Canada.
    One can see this in such things as nationalized medicine, annual
    vacation, layoff benefits, gun control, tremendous diversity in
    education benefits,  ...
    
    Digitals U.S layoff benefits are MUCH better than those typically found
    in the U.S. yet still "penny pinching" compared to E.C. countries.
    
    				herb

    
    re: last two
    
    	I sort of figured the process was slightly different, but 30 weeks
    difference is a huge amount.
    
    bill..g.
    

    re <difference is a huge amount>
    yup
    The difference between 35,000,000(?) people (in the U.S.) without medical
    insurance and 0 people (in western Europe/Canada typically) without medical
    insurance is huge too.
    
    
    

hi,

I am still employed up here in the frozen white north however I did some mental
math when the announcements were made. I think .1 is a little inaccurate, if I
read the note correctly from our CEO in Canada, the package was a base of 13 
weeks, with 1 week added for every year between 2 - 10 and I think 3 weeks for
every year 10+. (I confess since I'm not a 10 year+ guy I didn't pay any 
attention to those numbers). 

We lost 9 people in the BC district this time and
I confess some of them made very little sense. I guess the thing that really
bothers me is that I  know the Accountants look at head count as a cure to a 
short term cash crunch, and that Wall St responds favourably to all this, but 
frankly the problems with Digitals losses do not stem from too many people 
working in front-line field offices. Even if the margins a narrow, the problem
is that not enough people are buying our products...I mean who ever paid for a
copy of DECcalc anyway. At MBA school they stressed the concept of net present 
value, which stated that if you cannot see a profit from a product ..then don't
make it. I've got a feeling that we've produced more than a few looser products
over time, and thosse decisions aren't made by the little frogs out here. 

Let us pray the market place starts to see the value in what we have to offer
otherwise we might as well roll up the carpets, bloody or not.

steve

The major components of the current Canadian transition assistance 
package are:

	A lump sum payment based on years of service:

	 0 - 2  years of service	13 weeks pay

	 2 - 10 years of service	13 weeks pay, plus 3 weeks
					pay for every years
					service between 2 and 10

	 10 +  years of service		37 weeks pay, plus 4 weeks
					pay for every years service
					between 10 and 20, to a
					maximum of 77 weeks pay at 
					20 years of service


	Continuation of basic benefits (health, supplementary medical, 
	dental, basic life and accidental death and dismemberment 
	insurance) for a period equal to the lump sum payment period.

	Outplacement services (career counselling and job search 
	support), provided by a major outplacement consulting firm.

    
    re: .6
    
>    The difference between 35,000,000(?) people (in the U.S.) without medical
>    insurance and 0 people (in western Europe/Canada typically) without medical
>    insurance is huge too.
    
    	I don't get it.  What's the point in bringing up national or lack 
    of national health insurance?  I'm simply talking 'weeks' of severance.
    
    	I was saying that since we all work for the same corporation but in 
    different countries, why should my service be worth any less or more than 
    someone else because they live in another country?
    
    	My 16 years should be 'worth' the same no matter where I've worked.
    
    
    	bill..g.
    

    >	I was saying that since we all work for the same corporation but in 
    >different countries, why should my service be worth any less or more than 
    >someone else because they live in another country?
    
    	No, we don't  -- there are many separate business entities
        that make up the corporation.
    
    >	My 16 years should be 'worth' the same no matter where I've worked.
    
     	Not necessarily, especially when other countries' laws come into
    	play.
    					andrew

Bill -

That would be nice if it did work that way.  For instance, I'd love to
have the vacation benefits that Europe/Australia for example get.

JD

    The severance packages are not the only way different subsidiaries of
    Digital differ.  The pay levels vary as well.  Historically, salary
    levels in Puerto Rico were 15% to 20% below those in the states for the
    same job title.  At one time (about 12 years ago) the difference was
    much greater.
    
    Dick

    re .9
    I think you just learned a little sumpin'. Not sure whether to
    characterize it as political science, or what (my guess is social
    philosophy).
    That's the reality. 
    
    Labor laws as indeed MANY MANY laws (how to incorporate, etc) are very
    dependent on the kind of political/sociological philosophy that is
    dominant in a country. Canada and the countries of western Europe 
    have much more social democratically oriented views of things than does
    the U.S.
    Hence, nationalized medicine, liberal vacation and severance policies,
    as well as such things as gun control are -I think- of a piece, sort of
    part of the package.
    
    				herb

	Re: .9

	I'm sure Digital would prefer to pay everyone who is leaving the
	smallest amount possible, and in countries where there are no
	laws governing what has to be paid, they are paying small
	amounts.  However in the UK for instance they HAVE to pay a
	minimum amount by law and I suspect that with the new EC 
	regulations, the newly announced UK package is not far off
	that.

	But as has been said, it is not just redundancy packages which
	are different around the world, you could say that Digital
	does not "value" employees contributions as much in some
	places because they give them less holiday.

	They could I suppose give everyone in every country the same
	wages and benefits at the lowest common denominator, but then
	there would be inequalities caused by the different cost of
	living in each country - so it just has to be accepted that
	different employees will receive different benefits.  As long
	as on the whole you get the same as other employees in your 
	country, you can't really expect more.

	Cathy

    One of the fascinating facts of life is that here in the UK salaries
    are well below those paid in the US (-30/50% probably).
    
    And when US employees have been assigned ot the UK, they not only get
    their US salary (as they should), but also a Cost of Living allowance
    for the higher COL in the UK.
    
    These and previously mentioned variables contribute to making
    comparisons based on no. of weeks salary somewhat artificial!
    
    John K (on his way effective 31st Dec.)

>       However in the UK for instance they HAVE to pay a
>	minimum amount by law and I suspect that with the new EC 
>	regulations, the newly announced UK package is not far off
>	that.

	Wrong.

	The UK package is a lot greater then the minimum, and it has nothing
	to do with EC law. (thank goodness)

	It has just been reduced heavily - to be in line with other companies
	it is still much greater than the minimum.

	The company gives us a compensation package that it believes is in line
	with other companies.

	This covers salaries, holidays, pensions, medical, hours of work, sick,
	redundancy............

	You can't just take one of these and compare it with one other in 
	another country,

	If you did, then the US salary and medical benefits provided by Digital
	would be reduced dramatically.

	Its market forces that drive our compensation packages in the UK, just
	like they do in the US - its just that the forces are different in the
	different countries.
	
	Heather

    
    
    	Again, I think my point is being mis-understood.  I realize and
    understand that people in different countries have to abide by
    different governmental rules and regulations.   What I'm having a
    hard time explaining is that we should all be given the same initial
    benefit, and then add to that whatever the specific regulations
    dictate.
    
    	The 'basic' package should still be the same for every employee 
    no matter where they work.  If the government in another country
    requires more payment, this should be layed out as an over and above
    type of thing.  I'm not saying that everyone, regardless of other
    uncontrollable circumstances, should be compensated the same.
    
    
    	bill..g.
    

    I guess you didn't just learn a little sumpin'. 
    
    In the U.S. -or maybe it's in Massachusetts?- the initial "benefit" is
    9 weeks. That I think is a legal requirement. (Can somebody comment on
    whether if Digital were incorporated in some state OTHER than
    Massachusetts something other than 9 weeks might be the law.)
    
    Everything above that legal requirement (9 weeks?) is gravy, gravy that
    Digital is serving out of a boat that is shrinking -and maybe sinking?
    
    As an employee of Digital U.S. I think it fair to say that I have much
    more in common with -say- an HP employee in the U.S. than with a German
    employee of Digital GMBH (or whatever).
    
    
    <What I'm having a hard time explaining is that we should all be given
    <the same initial benefit ...
    
    Why should we all be given the same initial benefit?
    Because it would be nice?
    Because it would be fair?
    What is your frame of reference that says "we" should all be given the
    same initial benefit?
    Would it be correct to observe that the same initial benefit is 9
    weeks?
    p.s.
    by the way, new employees of Digital U.S. earn vacation at the
    rate of 2 weeks per year.
    I believe new employees of Digital GMBH (or whatever) earn vacation at
    the rate of 4 (or 5?) weeks per year.
    
    				herb

    I still wonder how much of this has to do with country laws.  The
    package described in .0 look an awful like the one offered in USA
    about 2.5 years ago....and its been dwindling since.
    
    km

    RE: .19
    
    As a fellow (to .0) Canadian, I can tell you it has nothing to do with
    country laws.  Most, if not all, Canadian provinces have legislation
    that deals with severance pay.  I believe the minimum requirement is
    only 1 week's pay per year of service.
    
    Digital is being generous.  The same applies to vacation leave, pension
    plan, and sick leave.  In Canada, Digital meets or (mostly) exceeds
    these government set minimums (in fact, short term disability is now 180
    days per annum, which is absurdly high in the industry).
    
    I was once told that Digital's severance was this generous (even for
    terminated employees before all this TFSO stuff) because Digital will
    do whatever it takes to avoid litigation.  That seems silly, but then
    again, why so generous?
    
    Note also that this "new" Canadian package is about 30-50% less
    generous than that offered in round one, and will probably be reduced
    further should there be future "rounds".
    
    On the "fair" point, no one ever said life's fair.  We don't pay for
    medical insurance, dental insurance, prescription drug plan, pension
    plan.  Payroll deduction is limited to Federal and Provincial income
    tax (both vastly higher than the U.S. equivalents), Unemployment
    Insurance premiums, Canada (or Quebec) Pension Plan [Social Security?],
    Long Term Disability, Optional Life Insurance, and other personal items
    (stock purchase, leased vehicle, etc.).
    
    So, if you want your net pay to equal about 60% of gross, have medical
    insurance whether you are working or not, all just so you can be TFSO'd
    in Canada... :-)  well, you get the point... :-)  And we don't even get
    the British perk of the first 30,000 pounds of severance being
    tax-free!
    
    Otto.

>>>    In the U.S. -or maybe it's in Massachusetts?- the initial "benefit" is
>>>    9 weeks. That I think is a legal requirement. (Can somebody comment on
>>>    whether if Digital were incorporated in some state OTHER than
>>>    Massachusetts something other than 9 weeks might be the law.)

I can speculate as well as anybody. And since nobody has posted any documented
facts about any of this, here's what I *think* (not what I know):

o The 9 weeks requirement is a US law regarding *plant closings*, not mere
  layoffs in office buildings.

o There is no Massachusetts law regarding 9 weeks of severance pay.

o The company is not legally required to give any of us any severance pay,
  unless we're part of a plant closing.

o The company finds it easiest to give all US employees the same package,
  partly to forestall nuisance lawsuits. 

The above is all speculation, and is probably as accurate as all the other
information in this note (that's a joke, folks). If someone can post some
information that's known to be accurate, please do.

Vicki Meagher

    As an addendum to .20, I should also add that even though the average
    rate of pay in Canada is slightly higher than in the U.S., it's not
    only taxes that are higher.
    
    Do you smoke?  Try $44.00 for a carton of 200 cigarettes.
    Do you drink?  Try $20.00 for the average 26-ouncer
    Do you drive?  Try $2.30/U.S. gallon of gas
    Do you buy?    Try adding 7% GST (Goods and Services Tax) and then from
    		   0-12% provincial tax on just about everything!
    Out of work?   How's 12% unemployment strike you?
    
    And to top it off, we've just been informed there will be no Christmas
    turkeys for Canadian employees this year.  And the grocery stores
    charge an average of $1.29 a pound for these birds!  Of course, there
    may be leftover (from the recent TFSO) turkeys we can sell cheap!!!
    
    NOTE:  all of the above, while true, should not be taken as rampant
    complaining.  It's just how we live north of the border. :-) :-)
    
    Otto.

RE:       <<< Note 2243.21 by CASDOC::MEAGHER "Common sense isn't common" >>>
                             -< I can guess, too. >-

>o The company finds it easiest to give all US employees the same package,
>  partly to forestall nuisance lawsuits. 

Unfortunately, I have heard that this is not the case. Apparently,
secretaries are excluded from a TFSO package.

Chuck

    
    Yes, I believe it IS the case.  Secretaries have never been given a
    different package.  They have been excluded, based on a critical need
    in the company, but this is no different from any other job code being
    declared "off limits" because of a real or percieved shortage.  This
    doesn't mean they are treated differently from other employees.
    
    jim
    

re": -1
  >  Yes, I believe it IS the case.  Secretaries have never been given a
  >  different package.  They have been excluded, based on a critical    
  >  need in the company, but this is no different from any other job    
  >  code being declared "off limits" because of a real or percieved 
  >  shortage.  This .....


   Secretaries .... Critical need ....  EXCUSE ME!

   Could someone explain the business logic where this company:
 
      1) protects secretaries due to "critical need", but can backfill at 
         the drop of a hat via 1-800-Kelly Services.

      2) TSFO's trained hardware & software resources with years of 
         product knowledge.  These people are gone - forever! 

Re: .25

Perhaps management view is that a secretary is more of a generic position.  It 
is relatively easy to transfer a secretary from one position to another because 
their "basic" skill set is easily transferable (they don't count the 
organizational or business knowledge).  And perhaps they figure that, for the 
same reason, natural attrition for secretaries may get rid of any surplus.

I'm sure they wouldn't give anyone a package if they thought we would leave
voluntarilly.

Incidentally, my ex-wife was a TSFO'd DEC secretary, and I know of several others
from this location, over the last few years.

    Boy, Mac, I hope you aren't going to have any need of secretarial
    support any time soon!
    
    Comparing a good secretary to an answering service is quite a low blow.
    
    ng

  .18)
Each employee of the Digital Equipment G.m.b.H. gets 30 labour days
holidays,that means Monday through Friday.No matter how old he/she is
or how many years with DEC.
As far as our package is concerned it is rather complicated because
every company has to negotiate with the Labour Council a so called
social plan (Sozialplan) if there lay offs or restructuring messures
impact a certain percentage of there workforce.The actual plan is in
VTX under human resources but according to solid rumors DEC tries
to change it right now.
	J.B.
    

    re .28:
    
�Each employee of the Digital Equipment G.m.b.H. gets 30 labour days
    
    i.e. 6 weeks - but currently, it's ~9.5 weeks (47 working days), but
    it's currently under negotiation.
    
    6 weeks is more or less standard in Germany (though the legal minimum
    is less).

>    	Again, I think my point is being mis-understood.  I realize and
>    understand that people in different countries have to abide by
>    different governmental rules and regulations.   What I'm having a
>    hard time explaining is that we should all be given the same initial
>    benefit, and then add to that whatever the specific regulations
>    dictate.
 
	However, I think you have missed the point, its NOT the government
	rules/regs that drives most of the compensation, its MARKET FORCES.

>    The 'basic' package should still be the same for every employee 
>    no matter where they work.  If the government in another country
>    requires more payment, this should be layed out as an over and above
>    type of thing.  I'm not saying that everyone, regardless of other
>    uncontrollable circumstances, should be compensated the same.
    
 	If you did this, with no comparison against the market, either you'd
	be paying way over the odds and getting loads of people queueing up at 
	the door to join, or you wouldn't get anybody to join the company.

	Heather - who would love a US salary.

    There is no good reason why the package, basic or otherwise, should be
    close or even comparable to that in the US.  Employees in different
    countries are not paid the same, have different benefits, different
    working conditions and, obviously, different severance packages.  And a
    damned good thing it is too.  Why should we all be dragged down to the
    pathetic level of the US package?

    RE: .27
    
    I must apologize for my note critizing another author for comparing
    secretaries to Kelly Services. In this area, Kelly's is strictly an
    answering service. It has been brought to my attention that Kelly
    Services in the authors area is an agency that provides temporary 
    workers for secretarial work and other office services.
                           
    My apologies!!! Next time I'll look before opening mouth and inserting
    foot!
    
    
    ng
    

While I realize that there was a shortage of secretaries and that they
were not allowed to leave voluntarily (except for SERP), I'm saying
that I know of some that were forced to leave the company (layed off,
not fired) who were not offerred the same severance package that other
employees were offerred. My point again is that the company's
severance policies are apparently not even equitable across job codes
in this country, let alone in other countries.

Chuck

	Re: .16

	Heather,  I was told that there were upcoming changes to the
	statutory minimum redundancy payments from new EC regulations.
	After reading your mail I phoned the Redundancy office and they 
	have told me this is rumour only.

	For those in the UK interested the statutory minimum is:

	Age 18-21 .5  weeks pay for each year of service
	Age 22-40 1   weeks pay for each year of service
	Age 41-65 1.5 weeks pay for each year of service

	This only applies to employees with more than two consecutive
	years' employment.  In addition the payments are only made, up
	to a maximum of 20 years' service and a week's pay for
	calculation purposes will not exceed �205   So in theory at
	age 40 the most you could get would be �205 x 20 even if
	you were earning �500 per week and had been employed by the
	same employer for 24 consecutive years.

	The payment is tax free up to the amount of �30,000

	If anyone wants the Department of Employment leaflet on the
	subject it is Leaflet PL718 available on request from your
	local Department of Employement.

	In addition the Redundancy payments office (for information)
	can be contacted on 081-900-1966

	Regards

	Cathy

    
    
    re: .18
    
>    I guess you didn't just learn a little sumpin'. 
    
    	Nope, I've learned plenty, especially since my plant is closing.
    
    	I believe the 9weeks is part of the WERN, WARN or some such 'Act'.
    Sorry, but I don't have the document in from of me.
    
    	This document/Act stated that we were to be given 60 days notice
    of a plant closure, so I would suspect that the 9 weeks is basically
    given to all even if their plant is not closing.  I also believe it
    was a Mass. State Law and not a Federal law.
    
    	Outside of that, I'll humbly bow out of this conversation having
    know from a very young age that 'life ain't fair.'  Things just become
    more difficult when you see your plants work move to Canada and then
    see the folks in Canada be rewared with a better severance package that
    is basically not driven by governmental mandates but by DEC-Canada
    itself.  
    
    	Yea, I know (all to well), life ain't fair.
    
    	bill..g.
    

    RE:  .34
    
    >  The payment is tax free up to the amount of �30,00
                      ^^^ ^^^^
    
    One other (major) difference is that U.S. severance payments are taxed
    just like any other earned income.  So, the government gets ~25% right
    off the top.  
    
    Maybe if enough people get laid off we can solve our defecit problem!
    
    Chet

>    >  The payment is tax free up to the amount of �30,00
                      ^^^ ^^^^
>    One other (major) difference is that U.S. severance payments are taxed
>    just like any other earned income.  So, the government gets ~25% right
>    off the top.  
    
 
	This is a government thing, however, you cannot claim unemployement
	benefit if you have more then 2,000 quid.
	Neither can you claim it if the household income is over a certain
	amount. 

	Heather