Conference 7.286::digital

    Good luck,
    
    I know what your are going thru.  I went thru it in January of this
    year.  Not a pleasant part of life.
    
    You'll find a job quickly!!
    
    
    Glenn

    ...best to you Andy... you'll be missed.
    
    This company continues to throw out the parachutes to lighten
    the faltering plane.
    
    	/john

Andy, it was a pleasure to have met you that one (and likely only) time while
you were in Atlanta some years back.  

While I am saddened to see you leave, I am grateful for all you have done to 
contribute to this company.  I feel rather confident you will find another 
company that will have need for your skills and hope that they are able to 
provide you a conducive environment with which to grow.

Good luck to you and yours,

-Andy

    
    	Andy..I will miss your noting, but I'm confident that someone 
    	with your talent will not be unemployed for long.
    
    	Best of luck,
    	John Sobecky
    

    good bye and good luck.
    
    we will miss you.
    
    gene

    Sorry to see you go.  Good Luck Andy.

    Jim Morton

Andy,

You are one of the number of folks whose nodename::username combination is
"famous," at least in this conference.  I find it troubling that someone of your
experience is being let go.

Be good to yourself.  I am told there is life after Digital, so relax and keep
an open mind to all the possibilities.

Paul

    Andy,
    
    I'm so sorry to hear this news.  I have enjoyed chatting/dinner with
    you on both sides of the pond!  Best wishes with the job hunt.  I can't
    believe they are letting you go...DEC won't be the same without you.
    
    Holly

    Andy,
    	thanks for the honor of being remembered as one of the "notables"
    in DEC. Sadly, the list is  dwindling...
    
    I can remember 8 years ago, the rapport that was established between
    several of the names that you mention, that stretched across thousands
    of miles of wire. 
    
    Good luck, bucko, at worst you can always emigrate out here to the
    colonies. 
    
    Peter Q.
    
    

	Yup my friend, you'll be missed.. Thanks for adding me to the 
	honoured list. I'll miss your frequent trips and our many nights
	sharing a glazed look at the others in the pubs.

	The old DEC is dead.

						mike

What can I say? The man who introduced me to Notes-11, to Simon Szeto and
who's opinion is always valued. You'll be missed, Andy.
								- Ian W.

    This is getting seriously wrong. 
    
    Thank you, Andy, for the many fine works.
    
    And regards to dtl, should you see him.
    
    /Karl
    
                                   -30-

    
    
    
           <<< ROCKS::DISK$APPL01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]UK_DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
         -< Matters pertaining to DIGITAL and its employees in the UK >-
================================================================================
Note 440.144                   Right Sizing and me                    144 of 144
ROCKS::LMCDONALD                                     16 lines  18-NOV-1992 10:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Re .140  Andy
    
>    After 9 years 3 months of being a DECcie, Friday is my last day with
>    DIGITAL. I have been given the UK package and informed that my services
>    are no longer required.
    
    I'm sorry, Andy, but I have to comment about this.  Everyone who knows
    you knows you have been beating up the management something rotten to 
    get them to make you redundant.  I find it just a little two-faced when 
    you start shedding aligator tears and try to make it sound like Digital 
    are being the bad guy and kicking the loyal retainer out in the snow.  
    
    You got what you wanted.  You probably wanted it more than I did.
    
    LaDonna

    .13

    > I find it just a little two-faced when 
    > you start shedding alligator tears and try to make it sound like Digital 
    > are being the bad guy and kicking the loyal retainer out in the snow.  

    Where do you read alligator tears in Andys note ? Imho he was just
    submitting the fact that he was made redundant. That you have heavy
    emotions after working 9+ years for a company, made friends with so
    many people, getting the respect of a big part of the Digital community
    and working hard to get the ship in the right direction seems pretty
    normal to me.

    I could imagine that there are a lot of people who are just damn fed up
    of all the crap that's going on throughout the last 2+ years and I
    think it's perfectly understandable to get the urge for a change.

    However, my very best wishes (2nd time today). Digital has definitely
    lost a personality. Couldn't say this makes my day.

    Alain

               <<< ROCKS::DISK$APPL01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]UK_DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
         -< Matters pertaining to DIGITAL and its employees in the UK >-
================================================================================
Note 440.151                   Right Sizing and me                    151 of 151
ROCKS::LMCDONALD                                     21 lines  18-NOV-1992 12:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    I am sorry if some perceived my reply to Andy's note as a personal
    attack.  It was not intended to be so.  Beating about the bush is not
    my forte and some people may have been offended by my forthrightness.
    
    It was simply my response to an impression that I (and I think others)
    had gotten from that note and a number of others here and elsewhere on 
    the net.  I have spoken to Andy and understand that it was not his 
    intention to give that impression.  Whether or not he wishes to correct 
    that impression is up to him.
    
    I can't believe that in my last three days at DEC I finally managed to
    get a note hidden! Talk about cutting it fine...
    
    Goodbye all,
    
    LaDonna
    
    
    	PS  Andy's note .150 got in ahead of this one.  Im typing too slow.

                    <<< Note by ROCKS::LMCDONALD >>>
>    I'm sorry, Andy, but I have to comment about this.  Everyone who knows
>    you knows you have been beating up the management something rotten to 
>    get them to make you redundant.  I find it just a little two-faced when 
>    you start shedding aligator tears and try to make it sound like Digital 
>    are being the bad guy and kicking the loyal retainer out in the snow.  
>    You got what you wanted.  You probably wanted it more than I did.
>    LaDonna

    What I've done for the last few months is to battle to get either a
    meaningful job for someone with my skillset or the package. Well, the
    former didn't happen and so the latter did.
    
    I'm genuinely sad to be leaving DEC.
    
    Best regards to all
    
    andy
    
    
    

    
    If you don't mind telling, what compensatoin do you get in a UK
    package?  The US package seems to be 9 weeks + 1 for years (1-10)
    + 2 weeks for years (10-35)
    
    Jon
    

    1 months pay per year of service, +6 months pay + notice period.
    
    This will change by 3 months money on Dec 6 and a further 3 months
    money on Feb 6.
    
    /a

    
    Good Luck and I am sure that everyone wishes you the Best!
    
    						Brett Hull
    						CSC, USA

    I will miss your notes.
    
    Good bye.
    Marie

    Andy,
    
    You won't know me but I have seen your name peppered through out
    this conference, and I feel I know you.  Best of luck.
    
    

    
    Re: .6
    
    Hey - are you the same Jim Morton that worked on the "BOSS"?
    
    
    and  P.S. = Who's Andy
    
    
    djm
    

Re:       <<< Note 2225.18 by ASICS::LESLIE "Andy `{o}^{o}' Leslie" >>>

>    1 months pay per year of service, +6 months pay + notice period.
>    
>    This will change by 3 months money on Dec 6 and a further 3 months
>    money on Feb 6.
    
Quite generous compared to the U.S. package where the severance pay is
calculated in weeks rather than months (see .17).  Mind you, you don't say in
which direction the future changes will go...  :-) 

Good luck, Andy.

-  David (someone else you've never met but neverthless touched by your notes)

          Best of luck Andy. Remember always keep your running up it's
    a great stress reducer.
    
            Bob Brower

Good Luck, Andy.  You will be missed.

If I ever make it to your side of the pond, I'll look you up.

BobW

    Best of luck, Andy
    
    L

    
    Sorry to see you go, Andy.  Starting from a few days at
    DECUS in Hamburg back in '86, you've influenced me in
    a positive way.  Take care of yourself,
    
    Steve
    

    
    
    I don't know you but what you have written often has made me stop 
    and reconsider an opinion, view, feeling and I appreciated that.
    
    Best of everything,
    
    Jan Hernberg

    All the best Andy!
    
    Charles Mallo

    Does anybody know why the UK package is so generous? From what was
    written it appears a 5 year person would get about a years pay for no
    work. Seems pretty silly to me to give departing employees this much
    money.
    
    Oh well nothing in Digital makes much sense to me lately. Hey I'd take
    a 1 1/2 years (in my case) severence pay at the drop of the hat if it was
    offered to me. But I sure wouldn't ask for or expect it.
    
    Dave

    Re the following;
>>                    <<< Note 2225.22 by MRKTNG::MAHONEY_D >>>
>>                       -< Mr. Morton-Are you out there. >-
>>
>>    
>>    Re: .6
>>    
>>    Hey - are you the same Jim Morton that worked on the "BOSS"?
>>    
    No.  I am one of 3 Jim Mortons in the CSC Colorado.  I am the hardware
    Jim Morton in Remote Support.  I have no idea what "BOSS" is, or who
    worked on it, sorry.

    Jim Morton

It's a great shame that Digital can not offer further opportunities for
your undoubted talents Andy.

I have learnt a lot from you, especially in the early days of noting. I think
the noting community will miss you.

Dave.

    re: The note that asked about the higher severance package in U.K.
    
    My understanding from a conversation with a fellow from Europe is that
    each country's package is carefully analyzed in order to "equalize"
    what's left of a severance package after all local and national taxes
    have been withheld.
    
    Because of the higher rate of taxation, a severance package has to be
    greater to make up for the withholding.  What is left is roughly equal
    to what we would get here in the U.S. after our (lower) taxation.
    
    Probably there are some local/regional laws which may also enter into
    the equation; but the prime rationale is to leave the employee,
    regardless of country, with roughly the same level of severance.

    The package in the UK is tax free. 
    
    Lisa.

    Severance pay in Australia attracts an effective tax of about 2.5%.
    
    Thank God the notion of 'normalisation' doesn't work... or else
    everybody would be dragged down to the US level.

    RE: .33
    
    Might want to check your source.
    
    Marc H.

    Lisa is correct.  Reduncancy money in the UK is tax free up to 30,000
    pounds. 
    
    Most of mine is already spent on the mortgage!
    
    LaDonna
    

    re comparisons between U.K and U.S.
    
    It's my understanding that most of the European countries are run with
    Democratic Socialism as the dominant political/social philosophy.
    
    
    				herb

>       <<< Note 2225.38 by VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy bein' green" >>>
>
>    re comparisons between U.K and U.S.
>    
>    It's my understanding that most of the European countries are run with
>    Democratic Socialism as the dominant political/social philosophy.

Maybe for the other side of the English Channel, but both my kids (13 and 9)
have yet to live under such a regime. As to the tax, the first �30,000 is
tax free. I'm not sure on the scales above that; UK income tax is normally
20% on the first �2,000, 25% of the money earnt between �2,001-�23,700 and 
40% on any money earnt above �23,700 - right up to infinity.

The package is indeed very good - for me (with 16 years service) it works
out at least 14 months gross salary *after* tax @40%. Even after February, 
it's close to one years gross salary. Then again, i'm praying that this is
merely academic; I love my job here!
								- Ian W.

    re .-1
    I tried to be careful to say philosophy rather than party or government
    to anticipate your response.
    Perhaps I should have said democratic socialism.
    From the perspective of the U.S. both the UK and much of E.C. have
    cultures that are closer to Socialism than the U.S.
    
    
    			p.s.
    
    in my thinking, democratic socialism is not an expletive indeed it's
    not even a perjorative term.

    ...and your point is...?

    if you can read you know what my point is
    
    that the disparity between U.S. and E.C. countries in redunancy
    severance pay can be attributed in part at least to the
    political/social philosophies that dominate in the respective
    countries.
    

    As can the disparity in annual holidays and health care.

    Well, I think you're way off base.  But there you are and here I go.
    
    'bye.

    I was very saddened to read of your "departure", as was mentioned
    before, your nodename::username was well known, and not in just this
    conference. 
    
    I may not be the Mike Foley you know, (he's an imposter 8^), but I wish
    you well. Is digital tossing the baby out with the bathwater?
    
    Best of Luck
    .mike.

	Digital suffers the handicap of having perhaps the widest range
	of products in the computer industry - bar none. That means an
	additional load of communication, networking, teamwork, and
	access to accurate, current information.

	Consider this: to meet with a customer, we might need:

		* A salesperson (relationship builder)
		* A consultant (business person)
		* An operating system expert
		* A domain expert (TP, CASE, Office...)
		* Perhaps some industry people
		* A network expert
		* Etc...

	and the result is, at worst Babel, at best a very poor impression.

	The answer? Encapsulate all that complexity inside a single person!
	It can be done. Now we don't have many people who can do ALL of the
	above, but someone like Andy Leslie can do most of it. (He is
	obviously good at relationship building, but might not enjoy that
	job so much...)

	A customer and a salesperson getting together to discuss what
	Digital can profitably do to improve that customer's business
	could not wish for anyone better qualified to help them understand
	what's available - and practical - than Andy.

	It takes over ten years to build up that much expert knowledge.
	It takes one day to say goodbye to it. "Our people are our greatest
	resource"?

	Nar.

	/Tom

>================================================================================
>Note 2225.42                  Goodbye and fare well                     42 of 44
>VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy bein' green"           7 lines  19-NOV-1992 15:39
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    if you can read you know what my point is
>    
>    that the disparity between U.S. and E.C. countries in redunancy
>    severance pay can be attributed in part at least to the
>    political/social philosophies that dominate in the respective
>    countries.
>    
>

And why then are Americans so loyal to a system and companies
offering such poor benefits ???

/Paul.

    Let's keep this note on track.  Please discuss severance and vacation
    issues in another topic.

    Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL

    
    Good luck, Andy, wherever you are!
    
    Regards,
    
    	Jim Kearns

    re: .45
    
    Maybe the baby was TFSO'ed also! :-)
    
    Bye Andy  		Best wishes 
    
    

    'Bye Andy.  You, and others, have taught me a lot about noting and
    Digital through your words and actions.  Take care and keep us informed
    _when_ you get a new job in the near future.
    
    --- Gavin

Andy's many friends on the net can now reach him at Internet address
	[email protected]

This corresponds to VMS Mail address
	nm%decwrl::"[email protected]"

Various variations of the above are possible.  Rather than enter into an
endless discussion about Nmail and/or DECWRL and/or VMS Mail, I'll point out
that for further information on how to reach Andy (and the rest of the
universe), copy over to your node and read one of the following files:
	DECWRL::"GATEWAY.DOC"
	DECWRL::"GATEWAY.PS"

	Or you can just send mail to AXEL::LESLIE. I've set
	up mail forwarding there..

							mike

    Isn't setting up a forwarding to point outside the company against the
    security policy?  If not, it's still not a good idea.

    Very much against security policy indeed.
    
    Charles

    Re .53
    
    I'm really surprised that the person responsible for system
    management/security of the STAR:: cluster is doing something explicitly
    against corporate policy. He would never knowingly do that so one
    of the following is true:
    
    	a) He doesn't know what the policy is. I bet that makes the VMS
           devos feel secure if the case.
    
    	b) The policy about external mail forwarding has changed. If so
    	   I haven't seen a reference.
    
    I'd like to believe the answer is b) not a).
    
    Dave

    
    
    	copying DECWRL::"GATEWAY.DOC" doesn't work.  anyone know
    	how to get that info?
    
    	Thanks - Tom
    

    The command:
    
    $ copy/log DECWRL::"GATEWAY.DOC" gateway.doc
    
    worked for me. DECWRL is a Unix node so it you left off the quotes or
    used a wildcard for the destination that would explain your problem.
    
    		Alfred

    Also Unix file systems are case sensitive, so you must use
    "GATEWAY.DOC" or "gateway.doc". The maintainer of decwrl:: have
    prudently left a copy as both upper and lower case. However, if you try
    to be kinky and do dir decwrl::"GaTeWaY.doc" it wouldn't work!

	One would hope that the author in .56 would get his facts
	straight. I haven't done system management in VMS for over a year.
	And I haven't done security in almost 2 years.

	I have no time for this babble so I'll remove the forwarding
	as soon as I find the time. It's just not worth listening
	to the hassle of those with nothing better to do. I did it purely
	as a convenience to myself. I had no intention of forwarding DEC
	stock futures (like there is one) as much as Andy would be amused.

	Time to get out of the hotel and get to the customer site.

							mike_in_calif

Presumably, the prohibition against forwarding is so that
stuff doesn't accidentally get sent outside DEC -- e.g., if
a departed employee was previously on TOP-SECRET-STUFF.DIS,
you wouldn't want the address to remain valid and siphon
data to outside DEC.

This consideration obviously doesn't apply in this case,
since (a) the address did not previously exist (b) anyone
knowing about the address must know that it's an outside-DEC
forwarding address.

Since at least one of the nay-sayers in this note doesn't
normally believe in following orders in a mindless manner,
I can only assume he's trying to stir things up in yet
another notesfile.  :-)

    re. .60
    
    i'm with ya man. try an do someone a favor and all kinds of garbage
    comes out of the woodwork to tell you everything you've done wrong.
    
    "living" with customers seems preferable these days.
    
    gene

	RE: .62

	Yet another reason why this company is no longer fun to
	work at.. I'd love to write what I'm thinking but I'm sure that
	some would then take me to DECcourt and whine and moan about
	how I destroyed their life..

	I've about given up on this place..

							mike

    Re -1
    
    Things haven't been the same since the day RAINBO::CHIMENTO left. :-)
    
    -- b

    I'm seeing the very best resign.  This will hurt us.  

    RE: .39
    
    Ian, they wouldn't dare. I refuse to countenance such an occurrence.
    
    RE: .52
    
    For those of us in Europe, replace DECWRL with VBORMC which is the
    European based router. That way you'll keep the transatlantic traffic
    down and enjoy faster responses.
    
    Laurie.

I really hate to see Andy go.
I've never met him and may not ever get the chance.
I do, however feel very priveleged to have gotten to know him through his
writings in this and other forums.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
naaaaaah
We're still keeping the bathwater!

Cheers,
Kevin