Conference 7.286::digital

    Hi Mike!  Don't know how old your kids are, but my 4 yr. old loves
    Super Nintendo (so do I)! :-)
    
    My knowledge of the Alpha chips is pretty limited, but it would seem
    that the low cost chips will be available just about in those time
    frames.  Until then, I'd recommend one of the fine Digital Intel boxes
    that can run Windows NT.
    
    Who knows, maybe there'll be a Super Nintendo AXP, someday!

    It would be wise to speak with Alpha AXP Migration Services.  They
    will be able to suggest machines you can purchase now, then upgrade
    to Alpha AXP when you are ready / when what you want becomes available.
    
    Regards,
    
    Brenda
    
    

    I like the powerbooks a lot more than DEC laptops.
    PB100's were selling for about $700 for a while, after
    they were discontinued.  Hard to find now.  But it was
    quite deal.

    I doubt any of our laptops are upgradable to Alpha AXP
    technology...but its worth looking into.  Of course,
    who knows what Apple will have out then?
    bob

	I don't know any pricing or timing information but I suspect that
	Alpha AXP PC class systems are probably a ways off and their price
	is likely to be higher than 486 systems for a while. A 8-12 MB 486
	will run Windows NT when it's available. I decided to go with the
	486 for now myself. I hope to get WNT at some point but I'm not
	about to wait a six months to a year for WNT. I needed a system now.

	If I was going to wait a couple of years I wouldn't even be asking
	around today. Things move much to fast.

			Alfred

    re: should I get a mac now or wait for Alpha
    
     What is your *real* goal??  if it's to have the latest hot thing in
    computers at home, you best wait. And be willing to spend top dollar
    (this is experience speaking).
    
    On the other hand, if you want to have something to use for your family
    *now*, you need to balance between what the school system
    has/uses/recommends and what you want. I suggest Apple since it's so
    integrated (which makes it easy to use). With Windows, the PC-types are
    getting lots better for kids and non-computer types to use.
       Besides, I've almost always found that exactly comparable
    configurations of Apples and PC systems+software results in a lower
    cost for the Apple. And fewer parts to worry about (there's that
    integrated thing again... :-)
    
    I consider $2000 investment in my family over the next 4-5 years to be
    well worth it!

Thanks for all the answers so far. To be more precise, my goals are:

1. To buy a machine with the features and price of the Apple system (I
was told it's about $3k)

2. To buy a Digital product

3. To buy it by the time my kids have a reasonable need to use it (the
oldest is 5, but I'm not a parent who sees her having to have a
computer just yet).

4. To buy a system with the longest possible future (for my own needs)

Reasons 2 and 4 are why I'm interested in Alpha. Reasons 1 and 3 are
why I'm asking the question now.

There's also a fifth reason: I'm hoping that there's an enormous market
for such a product, and that we'll offer it and sell bazillions.

    
    Get a 400ST series machine.  It is upgradable to Intel P5 and, maybe,
    Alpha (This is Jensen, NO?)
    
    Seriously, I don't think you'll see Alpha get anywhere near Intel
    sales levels for at least five or six years.  It all likelihood, it
    will never be as popular as Intel.
    
    -Ed
    

    From what I understand, Macs are pretty expensive compared to what you
    can get in a PC.  Windows does a pretty good job of giving you what Mac
    lovers like, IMO.  I used a Mac that I borrowed from a friend earlier
    this year.  When I had even more work dumped on me and *had* to get a
    system, I found that for the money I was able to get a superior system
    for less by going with a PC.  If you haven't already, check out what
    Digital has to offer with EPP along the lines of a PC.  I got a 20 MHz
    '386 system with 5 MB RAM, 120 MB disk, hi-res color and a inkjet printer
    for about $1500.  I am delighted and much prefer it to the tiny, B&W,
    slow, 1 MB RAM Mac with Applewriter (or whatever it is) printer.
    Granted, it's not Alpha.  But, in a few years it may be possible for me
    to swap out the mother board for an Alpha-based mother board and still
    use a lot of the stuff I have now, running under Windows NT.
    
    Steve

>3. To buy it by the time my kids have a reasonable need to use it (the
>oldest is 5, but I'm not a parent who sees her having to have a
>computer just yet).

Why not?  I've got a 3 & 4 year old; both are using the PC I got through
employee purchase ($16/week for 2 years @ 0%).  Both of them love it.

Some of the learning software thats available is pretty neat stuff
(You just can't beat Mickey Mouse's Birthday Party).

KidPix (a drawing package) is also great fun (even for adults).

Ok, so it's only a 386 - but it does everything I need it to do at a price
I could afford.

>4. To buy a system with the longest possible future (for my own needs)

You could wait forever on this one, given the way things keep changing.

--Scott

    There are lots of Mac versus PC discussions in their
    own notes conferences.  If you are comparing them, I
    suggest you look there.  If you want something that
    is made by DEC, then forget Mac's (unless you live
    in India).

    I'm always amazed at the level of the assumptions that
    people make when comparing Mac's and PCs...like 'well, I've
    heard that....'.  Most people tend to only know about
    one (Mac or PC) and have internallized wild rumors about
    the other.
    bob

    Having used/demo'ed/installed/setup/problem diagnosed MAC's, PC's (DOS
    & WIndows), VAXstations & RISCstations, (I'm in sales support in a 
    remote office), when asked my PERSONAL opinion about whether a MAC or
    a PC is better my reply is usually 'if you want to USE a computer,
    get a MAC, if you want to LEARN about computing, get a PC' - Windows
    has come a long way towards making Intel/DOS machines usable for non
    computer types, but I know of MANY people who buy MACS and never open
    the books on how to use the things! They just plug them in, power them 
    up and start using them.

    ... It's a contraction/familiarization of "Macintosh" and NOT an
    acronym for a product or organization or evaluation, like Project MAC
    (which meant "Man And Computer", a relic of the '60s) or perhaps
    "Mega-Awesome-Computer."                                            :-)
    
    I know it's a nit, but I assure you from experience that when we use it
    in communications with customers who use 'em, it's as bad as walking
    into a PC account and asking "What's the AUTOEXEC.BAT file do?"
    
    /s/ Dan, a recovering Mac user, whose daughter told of a recruiting
    experience last week at Oracle:  An interviewee, when she asked about
    his training, answered "Who's he?" to the question "Do you know VMS?"
    

    From the criteria listed in .6, I can't see why you'ld want to wait for
    Alpha.  You should probably be weighing a Windows machine versus a Mac,
    and not even worrying about NT.  There is no assurance that any/many
    home/education/entertainement applications will appear anytime soon for
    Alpha NT (though we can hope so!), and you would certainly pay a
    premium for such a system without seeming to have any need for super
    performance.  If you really want to buy DEC, probably wait until the
    Tiger 486 machines are available through EPP; otherwise go for another
    clone (e.g. Gateway) or a Mac.  The Mac is still easier to use, but you
    pay somewhat of a premium for that.  Certainly Intel DOS/Windows
    machines will have the greatest variety of software for many years. 

Re why Alpha:

.6> 4. To buy a system with the longest possible future (for my own needs)

My kids certainly don't need an Alpha processor, and I don't right now,
but I might in the future. And it would be nice to invest in the
architecture with the longest potential remaining life.

Anyway, I'll check the the recommended conferences for discussion of
the relative merits of Intel/Windows platforms vs Mac's.

    Reading this thread, I'm struck that Mike Glantz hasn't told us what he
    wants to DO with a computer.  This is not asking for a justification,
    but rather an indication of how he imagines himself and his family
    using the thing.
    
    Some rules of thumb gleaned from Len Fehskens and from personal
    experience are: figure out what you want to do and buy the computer
    that does it best.  Try before you buy, since specs don't tell you much
    about the experience of using a particular brand or model.  Today's new
    model will be obsolete within a year, but the bottom price for a
    personal computer with a decent future is consistently about $2000. 
    The first rule is IMO most important.
    
    As for little kids: a 3 year old can get hours of enjoyment from gentle
    games like Katie's Farm.  A kindergartener can draw simples picture
    with the excellent Kid Pix, although he/she will draw better on paper
    than on screen.  Someone used only to the mini/workstation world will
    be pleasantly surprised.
    
    Employee purchase is covered in CAM3::EMPPURPRO.  Capsule summary:
    historically EPP has never been an unquestioned first choice.  Today,
    with the PC price wars going on, it's worth looking at all sources.
    
    Which flavor?  That's a religious question.  Buy from your employer? 
    Another religious question.  Wait two years for an Alpha machine?  Two
    years is forever in the world of small computers.
    
    Wes

    Digital Review had an article on our Alpha PC's.   I wonder how they 
    know... what we can only find out through non-disclosures.  Price
    quoted was between 6-9K.  Performance was approx. 50+ specmarks.
    
    Pc

We have not even publicly announced an Alpha AXP PC and Digital News and Review
has pricing.  Hmmm.  We are going to program announce one on November 10 but
it's way too early to have specific price and performance figures.

I'm sure there are lots of SWAGs, both here and in the press, though.

Paul

>    Reading this thread, I'm struck that Mike Glantz hasn't told us what he
>    wants to DO with a computer.

  Good point, Wes. The fact is, if I knew right now what I was going to be
  doing with my computer in five years, I probably wouldn't be asking in
  this conference, I'd have already made a decision. I know what I want to
  do for the next two years (I'm going to automate my house), and that
  doesn't need an Alpha processor. But I have inklings of what I'd like to
  do in the future (some AI stuff, some digital audio/video), and if that
  might require an Alpha (quite possible), I see no reason why I shouldn't
  enjoy its power sooner, and choose an architecture which will continue
  to serve me as my requirements grow.

  A lot of businesses find themselves in a similar position: they don't
  know exactly what they're going to need, but they're pretty sure their
  requirements will grow. They'd prefer to invest in a long-term strategy.
  For many of our customers, Digital's Alpha AXP may not yet be a sure
  enough thing upon which to base a long-term strategy, but for a Digital
  employee, it almost has to be.

  My other reason for asking was to cast a vote for this product. I ask
  for the dishes I'd like to see on the menu at my favorite restaurant.
  When one person asks, they realize it's a possibility. When enough
  people ask, they put it on the menu. Or maybe a competitor does. I'm
  sure I'm neither the first nor the last to ask for this product: a
  notebook-sized Alpha at a rock-bottom price. My real question is: When?

    Mike,
    
    	buy a PRO350! :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
    
    Andy

hmmm, the price is right :-).

    ...and the operating system allows you to get coffee whilst returning
    to main menu!
    
    Ah, the old ones were the best...
    
    /a

    If you want one, I got one...

    Actually you should get a PRO380 with RT-11 V5.6.  Load it up with
    memory and boot out of VM.  You'll have a hard time getting a sip
    of coffee between commands.  It's all covered in the documents.
    
    RT-11 V5.6 may not support the PRO380, but it sure runs nice.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams
    Avowed RT-11 bigot

    Yeah, been there, seen it, done it.

        Re: .16
        
>We have not even publicly announced an Alpha AXP PC and Digital News and Review
>has pricing.  Hmmm.  We are going to program announce one on November 10 but
>it's way too early to have specific price and performance figures.
        
        I didn't think it had been announced, but I saw the following
        quote in today's *digital today* (volume III, issue 43, 26
        October 1992, page 11):
        
            Cambridge Research Lab balances research, profitability
        
        ... [CRL] has worked ... on the recently announced Alpha PC.