Conference 7.286::digital

Most folks in this sales office have variations of the twelve-hour day.

Seriously, the attention in most of the places I've worked, including Digital,
has been whether you get your work done and not exactly how many hours you work.
In my experience, that number has never been less than eight.

Paul

    re.2......
    
    In case you didn't notice.  The company IS in BIG TROUBLE!  
    
    People who leave early are probably not the ones who are creating the
    loss of productivity.  It's those who stay till five but complain all
    day long about the situation the're in...
    
    

    Do people have nothing better to do than watch other people to
    see who's coming and going?
    
    Be real, what about the smokers who are constantly going to the 
    designated smoking areas or outdoors to have a cigarette.  There's
    fifteen minutes minimum right there.  Now, how many times a day does this
    occur?  Many I am sure.  Gee, shouldn't there be some give
    for us non-smokers then?  
    
    There are people who take short lunches, work from home, etc.  We
    are also allowed a ten or fifteen minute break after 4 hours of work
    (something like that).
    
    What I am trying to say is, when someone leaves a little early, they 
    should be making it up somewhere else...blah blah blah....otherwise
    if this in continuous maybe their manager is just not managing the
    workers properly.
    

    There are some who come in early, others who work through lunch, others
    who work at home, and some whose work is not measured in time, but in
    concrete results.  We are not all in the same circumstances.  It used
    to be common that on summer Fridays we couldn't find anyone at a phone
    in the Maynard area when we called.  In Colorado, the first day of deer
    season is sacred.  We live in a lot of different places with different
    cultures and norms.  There is no one set of rules that should be made
    to apply to everyone.
    
    (Unless it includes 
    
    	"Thou shalt not pad thy expense account" and  
    	"Thou shalt give your employees bad news in person")
    
    Dick

    
    	I say, do what the Mars Co. (the candy bar place) does. Make
    everyone, including the CEO, punch a timecard.
    
    	By the way, I'm on hour 18 of my work day so far...we make up the
    difference for those who come in late and leave early.
    
    	Its the DEC way!!!
    %^> ---note the cross eyed smiley

    	
    	Falsifying your timecard is grounds for termination.  I've seen 2
    people walked to the door a few years ago because of it.  If I remember
    right they where marking their cards as if they didn't have lunch when
    in fact they did.
    
    Joe

    If I remember correctly, I believe there is a federal law that makes a
    company liable for anyone working longer than 16 hours w/o a four hour
    break in case that employee had an accident,etc on the way home 
    afterward?
    
    And if one is on hour 18, what can I say? More power to that individual
    and more sleep to me.
    
    I for one refuse to work longer than is absolutely needed to finish the
    job and I schedule my time such that 8 hours suffices just fine. 8^)
    I do have a personal life and will not die for DEC or anyone.
    
    Reg.

    I agree with Dick Beldin ... different circumstances apply for different
    jobs.  Whether you adhere to a strict 8-hour per day schedule or not
    really should depend on what you're doing.  I think the important thing
    is to make sure you're doing the job you're getting paid to do, whether
    it takes fewer or greater than 8 hours per day.
    
    To the person who suggested that everyone in the company punch a time
    clock ... I have to ask what purpose that would serve?  Is it
    productive to have folks work 8 or more hours per day if they spend
    most of that time reading Notes (or some other non-job related
    activity)?  I think the only thing that really matters is that you get
    your work done, and that you do it to the best of your ability.  If
    that takes less than 8 hours per day, then let your superiors know 
    you've got time on your hands, and it's up to them to decide what you 
    do with it.  If they decide that you're doing what you're getting paid
    for and don't give you any extra work, then why not go home early?
    
    On the other hand, if you're working 18-hour days, then either you're
    not managing your time very well or your supervisor is being negligent
    in giving you too much for one person to handle.  I noticed from your
    node that you work in a customer support center.  A lot of my friends
    who work in the Shrewsbury (MA) CSC also tend to work long hours ... it
    seems to be the nature of the job.  But I don't know too many folks who
    can stay coherent for long working 18-hour days.  It's bad for your 
    physical and mental health, and if I were you I'd consider having a talk
    with my boss about either reducing the workload or getting some help.
    
    FWIW - I've never worked for a company that would ask everyone to punch
    a time clock, and rarely one that looked at hours rather than results.
    That's the nature of the type of work I do.  No high-tech company that I
    know of would even consider such a mentality ... they'd surely lose their
    most creative (and often most productive) engineering employees as soon as
    they adopted the "time-card" mentality.  Most of the folks I work with
    don't look at the clock, but at pert charts and schedules.  As long as
    you make your goals and produce what you commit to producing, nobody
    really cares when you're in the building and when you're not.  Of
    course, most folks I work with also have terminals at home ... and we
    don't just use them for reading Notes ... ;^)
    
    ... Bob
    

    instead of whining about here, why not ask those people if they are on
    some kind of special work program, etc.  If not, tell them how your
    belief of their abuse of time affects you and your work and youwould
    wish they would do something about. Then say that if it's noticeable to
    you, think of how noticeable it is to others, slyly hinting that their
    supervisor/manager may be watching also.
    
    I believe you've taking the first step in getting the help you want,
    by bringing the question here in hopes that 1) someone will tell you
    what you need to do,  2) these so-called abusers are reading this and
    will catch on,  or 3) your manager is reading this and you hope that
    he/she catches on.
    
    Really, you must tackle the problem first! It sounds like it genuinely
    bothers you and if it does you must present your concern to the
    percieved problem.  Maybe these people were informed months ago that
    they're targeted for TFSO and with all the specualtion in here about
    early notifications detrimental side effects, that could explain their
    percieved abuse of the system.
    
    I say percieved because maybe they have another priority to tend to
    before they reach their official work station that someone else has
    requested of them.  It's very hard to solve a problem like this without
    seeing the environment and knowing the people.  You are the closest to
    them that can start to correct the problem.
    
    You don't even have to pose it as an inquiry; you'd be surprised how
    much a snide remark goes in correcting probelms with
    subordinates/peers/ superiors.  Just say some thing like "Nice of you
    to show up" or "Good Afternoon!" or "Was traffic bad this morning?" for
    late arrivers and for ealr leavers "Where do you think you're going" or 
    "Is something wrong at home?"  And endless number of personal
    commentaries available that you could repeat everyday and soon it just
    might catch on.
    
    Be direct or be sacarstic, but you must begin to correct it at your
    end;after all, it bothers you, not them.
    
    Reg.

    How would it save the company money for the company to have to process
    100,000+ time cards every week?  
    
    There are people who are here at 8:15 and leave at 5:00 every day and
    accomplish very little.  Being "in the office" 8 hours a day does not
    necessarily equate to 8 hours of productivity.

    
    Interesting string, this.  Seems to me that the gist is whether
    we should worry about the process: what goes on during the day;
    who is where and when; who's having coffee in the cafe
    at the wrong time; who's in the smoking room when; who's
    entering a note at 9:45 in the morning, etc., :-); how we
    can tweak the "elements" of the process (i.e, the people and
    their behavior), or, we can worry about the outcome or result.
    
    I vote that we need to worry about the outcome or result and
    treat people like adults.
    
    Glenn

    
    Re: base note
    
    As has been mentioned there are all kinds of legitimate reasons why
    people might be leaving early. To find out who's abusing it would
    require sorting it all out.  If you feel that persons in your plant
    are abusing it and it affects you directly by adding to your work,
    etc. then take it up with them.  Telling us about it won't change 
    a thing.
    
    Steve
    

Re: Everyone having to punch timecards

Reminds me of what happened at Hughes after EDS bought them out.

EDS mandated that ALL salaried employees must work 10% overtime per week.

Result: Productivity went DOWN! Those that were working more than 10% O.T.
decided that if the company was going to be that chicken-s&#t, then 10%
is what they would get.

As the old saying goes: Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Bob.

    I think that the 'culture' about work hours changed
    a lot when car pooling started up (mid 70's?).  Before
    that, it was VERY common for the parking lots still to
    be pretty full at 6PM.  With car pooling, suddenly people
    were leaping up at meetings, looking at their watch, saying
    "Gotta run....Car Pool!".  It seemed that that seemed to
    change the whole atmosphere about work hours...and now
    few people car pool but everyone leaves at 5.

    I'm more concerned that so few people work late than that
    a few people leave early.
    bob

    
    Re: .17
    
    >Obviously y'all are uncomfortable about discussing this so perhaps
    >I'll take my concern where it will do some good. 
    
    People aren't uncomfortable discussing it.  You've received a number
    of responses, but since they weren't saying what you wanted them
    to, you weren't listening.
    
    > What a joke on me to think anyone would care about this problem
    > and offer concrete solutions!!!!  
    
    You *were* offered concrete solutions.  Address the instances of the
    problem that are clearly apparent to you.  Talk to the managers or
    people involved.  You'll have done what you can.  What more would
    you expect any of us to say?
    
    Steve
        

    

There are basically two kinds of workers in the world

1.) The person work works a job, punches a clock (mentally, if not physically) 
    and is rarely self motivated or challenged by their job.   They get average
    increases, experience the normal joys and sorrows of their workplace, take
    their breaks consistently, and watch the clock for the last 15 minutes of 
    their shifts.

or

2.) The person who is career oriented, rarely pays attention to the clock, takes
    breaks when needed, has a two hour luch to run errands some days, and works
    through lunch (and sometimes dinner) other days.   This person slips out
    of the office occasionally on sunny days to play golf (or whatever), and
    can often be seen burning the midnight oil to meet a deadline.  Their work
    is usually good and occasionally brilliant.  They strive for above average
    increases, and regular promotions.

Which person would you hire?

Bob

    REPLY  to Basenoter:
    
    First of all, my customer, who is a large government agency, is at his
    desk 6:30AM - 3:30PM.  Guess what time I'm at my desk?  6:30AM -
    3:30PM.  I also can fax and use the copier without having to 'waste
    time' waiting in line.  At this very moment, my PC is printing a
    spreadsheet for him on my LA75 while I'm printing a contract on my
    LA324 off this VT1200 Windows Terminal and responding to you.  So, don't
    assume just because you see me walking out at 3:40PM that 'I'm
    stealing from the company.'
    
    Secondly, you asked for our comments and you chose not to listen.  I
    agree with the replies that stated you either confront the individuals
    directly or their manager.  If an organization is not meeting its goals
    and some of its people are only putting in a 6 or 7 hour work day, it is
    the MANAGER's responsibility.  If he/she doesn't know about it, they're
    not doing their job and that's why you need to let them know.
    
    Thirdly, most of us are all frustrated with the on-going TFSO's,
    constant re-org's, etc and I do feel the same way you do, that is if a 
    person is not doing the job Digital hired them to do, they should be gone. 
    But again, it's their manager's responsibility.
    
    Be careful about judging others.  As it says in the good book, the
    judgement you use on others will be used on you!
           
    

    re: .17
    
    Don't get your knickers in a twit, as they say across the pond...
    
    I believe you (and all of us) should be doing what hasn't been done
    for years, which coincidenaly (sp) is what Bob Palmer is using as one 
    of his party planks: "Hold the manager accountable"!!!!!  I wouldn't
    bother with the snide remarks (at least not for long...) but make your
    management DO THEIR JOB.  They own the problem, hold them accountable
    for fixing it, as they will soon be getting use to this anyway.  If you
    still don't get results after presenting it to your management, use the 
    open door policy.  But YOU owe your management the chance to fix the
    problem! (assuming from your comments that there is, in deed, a
    problem).  Once you've given them the chance, if they don't fix it,
    increase the visibility up the chain...THIS WORKS.  Maybe not the first
    level, but if there really is no reason for these people to be leaving
    arriving on a different schedule from everyone else in your group/area
    then your management tree will either fix it, or get very embarassed
    when it goes to the next level...
    
    
    Jim
    

    AS a WC 4 IC, I can imagine being asked to note my hours in a
    calendar, and to verify to my manager that I worked 40 hours.
    I wouldn't mind doing this, and would do it in a second if I thought
    anyone had any doubts about the kind of time I put in.
    
    People have seen me leave around 4 pm for medical appointments; if
    anyone cared, looking at my calendar would show the Saturday time,
    Sunday time, and evening time that offsets this.
    
    If I was a manager and someone seemed to be working short hours, I
    would ask them to keep such a calendar and bring it to our meetings.
    
    Holly
    

    re: .21
    
    Nice commentary.  I definitely fit the latter category.  Of course,
    I've a bit of an odd duck.  During the last month I've been coming in
    sometimes as late as noon, leaving around 5:30, coming back at 7 PM or
    so and working until 3 AM or so (at the Mill).  And, it varies from
    there.
    
    I usually put in plenty of OT, if such a thing exsits for a salaried
    employee.  I do notes.  On my workstation, I usually have 6 windows up
    and note while jobs are running.  That's what I'm doing now.  I
    frequently log in from home.
    
    And, as an engineer, work is constantly on my mind.  I dream about this
    stuff.  I think about it everywhere I go.  Sometimes my wife can't
    "reach me" because my mind is on work.  Sure, I loosen up every once in
    a while.  There is balance to my life.  But, my mental efforts have become 
    intense now with everything I do and it is a carryover from my work
    habits.
    
    So, if I think about work almost all of the time, when do I clock in
    and when do I clock out?  If I were mandated to be on the clock 8 hours
    a day between such and such a time I can almost guarantee that I would
    begrudgingly limit the time to thinking about work to that time frame
    in protest.  But, give me what I need to accomplish, trust me to do the 
    right thing and allow me freedom to work my schedule and you'll get a lot 
    more than 40 happily productive hours per week out of me.  Granted, not
    everyone can work well that way, but engineers and others seem to.
    
    Steve

    re: .21; Bob Deep,
    
    Well said Bob!  Many employees I have worked with in DEC are #2's. 
    VERY productive folks.....AND I have had many #1's work for
    me...consistent output, reliable attendance, some "salt of the earth"
    people!
    
    I have, as well, had many frustrating conversations with a manager who
    equates "working hard" to "long hours"...they are not necessarily the
    same.
    
    Steve

    re: Mandatory overtime.  DEC did that one too, a long time ago, before
    I came to work here - probably during the hiring freeze in the fall of
    1975.  Everyone was supposed to work an extra 5 hours a week (exempt
    salaried, people, I mean).  I started here in January of '76, after
    this scheme had faded out.  My boss at the time said that it led to a
    decrease in the amount of work that got done.  People thought it was
    mickey-mouse and took to working exactly 45 hours, instead of the 50-60
    that was the norm in the group I joined before that.  When the "5
    unpaid hours a week" thing went away, people went back to their usual
    habits.  Most people, myself included, worked until 7 or so, longer if
    there was a 'fire'.  Of course, in those days most employees were my
    age, and didn't have houses to maintain, kids in daycare, committee
    meetings to go to, carpools to drive, and so on.  These days, a lot of
    us have to work smarter because we can't work longer hours instead.
    
    /Charlotte

    RE: .12
    
    �You don't even have to pose it as an inquiry; you'd be surprised how
    �much a snide remark goes in correcting probelms with
    �subordinates/peers/ superiors.  Just say some thing like "Nice of you
    �to show up" or "Good Afternoon!" or "Was traffic bad this morning?" for
    �late arrivers and for ealr leavers "Where do you think you're going" or 
    �"Is something wrong at home?"  And endless number of personal
    �commentaries available that you could repeat everyday and soon it just
    �might catch on.
    
    Man, am I glad I don't work near anyone with an attitude like this. 
    Not even within shoutin' distance, I don't want to be.
    
    Popeye

    
    Re: .29
    
    They have a term for this in psychology.  It's called
    passive-aggressive.
    
    Steve
    

	I have another name for it, but I don't want to get my hand slapped
by the Notes Police ;^).

-John-

    the last few in reply to one of mine: get a life! you can't tell me that
    you've never yanked one of your co-workers, friends, family-members
    chains looking for some kind of desired response.  You may not have used 
    the wording that I used, but I guarantee you've done it.
    
    For those who say take it to their manager: I agree, BUT only after one
    has attempted to correct the problem at their own level first. One of
    the rules of responsibility, a unique quality that everyone seems to
    have forgotten about.
    
    Reg.
    

As a matter of interest, what sort of work do you (or the people
who aren't putting in the hours) do?

Here in software engineering, it would be highly unusual to
insist on particular work hours.   We're judged by results, and
the nature of the work is such that it's usually glaringly
obvious if one team member isn't putting the necessary
effort into his/her part of the project.

Isn't it against some natural law to make programmers work normal hours?

    >>Isn't it against some natural law to make programmers work normal
    >>hours?
    
    No, it's against some natural law to *expect* programmers work normal
    hours?
    
    

re .32

>>    Anyway, I was not trying to come off as some "holier than thou" person.
>>    If it seemed that way to some, then I apologize.  It seems that I'm 
>>    hearing (subtly of course) leave this problem alone.  And so I shall...
>>    so I shall.  Wouldn't want to ruffle any more feathers.

Geez,

You just don't know when to quit, do you???

First you say you don't want to come off as "holier than thou", then you
fabricate "being told to leave this problem alone".

I did not see any note suggesting what you seem to believe here.

Many noters have reponded that there are often very legitimate reasons
for coming in late or leaving early. These in no way suggested taht you leave it alone.

Bob.

    
    Working hours are very much anyone's own business as long as there is
    no harm to anybody else. however in many cases the other people of the
    same group must work late hours to get this less working peoples work
    done. You can't let them be undone, if you serve the customers.
    
    If you do such a job you must also think what you will do to get the
    things going well, you can do it also when you drink your coffee. Some
    people seem to think that's only waste of time.
    
    When you are a system manager, you must work sometimes very late hours
    and sometimes you can leave earlier. I myself can't understand who
    wants to be a brother's guard. And if there is someone who should do
    it, (s)he is the manager of that human being.

    .12, .29, .30...
    
    agreed, the snide remarks are from people who...never mind.
    if you're going to say something negative, and sometimes it must
    be done, say it in plain unmistakable english.   mwr

    the "8 hr. day" is something carried over from the industrial rev. that
    started after WWII. It was fine when everyone worked in a manufacturing
    plant and you had 3 shiftes of workers each on an "8 hr. day".....
    
    I maintain this does not necessarily apply in the business that we
    are in.....
    
    you don't come into work and crank out 25 software routines each day...
    5 days a week....x weeks a year.....
    
    years ago in this company we all punched timecards, then it changed
    because people realized that the "8 hr day mentality" doesn't always
    fit the business we're doing....
    
    If I'm in a job now where I need to worry about what others are doing
    with their time then I must be in management of some form, and if there
    is a problem with someone it's up to me to see it's
    corrected...otherwise I'm not doing MY JOB....
    
    If I'm in a job now that's not management and what other people are
    doing with their time doesn't affect my job I'd hope I had more
    productive things to do than worry about it, others get paid to worry
    about it....too many people today are busy whining about others and
    the fact that they are getting short changed that they contribute
    NOTHING....
    
    

    By the way, in my ongoing quest to counter the USAcentric
    viewpoint of many readers, I should point out that the
    notion that "1 standard work week" == "40 hours" is
    not globally true.
    
    For example, when I signed up with DEC in the UK (1977, but
    I think my memory is not yet impaired), it was 37� hours.
    
    

    It is interesting to me that the nation with the highest amount
    of vacation time and shortest average work week has the highest
    employee/year productivity on the planet.  (for a major industrial
    oil-importing nation).   mwr

>             <<< Note 2114.41 by MU::PORTER "Consultant Clacker" >>>

>    For example, when I signed up with DEC in the UK (1977, but
>    I think my memory is not yet impaired), it was 37� hours.
    
 It still is.   

    ref .42

    >It is interesting to me that the nation with the highest amount
    >of vacation time and shortest average work week has the highest
    >employee/year productivity on the planet.  (for a major industrial
    >oil-importing nation).   mwr

    which nation is this? do you mean the US? then what you say about
    highest amount of vacation time is wrong.

    I've been told in France it is 7 weeks/per year vacation is normal, (I 
    think Germany also is similar, not sure), in England it is 4 weeks/year, 
    and does not Italy take the whole month of august off ? 

    in the US , in the private industry, the norm seems 2 weeks/year, at 
    least for first 5 years, then 3 weeks per year for next 5 years, and 
    when you change a job, you start again at 2 weeks/year.. 

    /Nasser

>     <<< Note 2114.44 by STAR::ABBASI "Spell checking is a family value" >>>
>                -< the US has highest amount of vacation time? >-

 
>    I've been told in France it is 7 weeks/per year vacation is normal, (I 
By your own words, if France has 7 weeks...

>    in the US , in the private industry, the norm seems 2 weeks/year, at 

.. and the US has 2, is it not obvious that the person wasn't talking
about the US? My guess was Germany.

Craig

    RE: .42
    
    >It is interesting to me that the nation with the highest amount
    >of vacation time and shortest average work week has the highest
    >employee/year productivity on the planet.  (for a major industrial
    >oil-importing nation).   mwr
    
    And they also have PAID family leave.
    

    ref .44

>.. and the US has 2, is it not obvious that the person wasn't talking
>about the US? My guess was Germany.

    well, it was not very obvious to me since we all know that the US
    has the highest labor productivity rate in the world. or is this 
    not true either? you must have heard president Bush say that also ,
    so it must be true. that is why I thought .42 was talking about
    the US. 
    
    /Nasser

    If you believe something said by a political candidate, you've got
    problems that even spell checkers won't fix. 

    >> well, it was not very obvious to me since we all know that the US
    >> has the highest labor productivity rate in the world. or is this 
    >> not true either? you must have heard president Bush say that also ,
    >> so it must be true. 
    
    Nasser, you forgot the smileys ... ;^) ... or haven't you read our
    president's lips in the past?  It's an election year ... he'll say
    whatever he thinks his (present) audience wants to hear.
    
    ... Bob
    

    This is not the conference for Bush Bashing, or for that matter any
    candidate bashing.
    
    You missed the humor of Nasser's comment.  Maybe, with DEC's current
    state of affairs and employee morale, a sense of humor has taken leave
    of all of us.
    
    To sum up this note for me, on my way home every evening I ask
    myself, "Did I give DEC its monies worth today?" I also ask, "Did DEC
    give me what I expected today?"
    
    If I can answer affirmative the first question and 'expect' a positive
    response to the second, my conscience is okay.
    
    Regards,
     

    Re: .40 (and others)
    
    Many times, management seems unable (or unwilling) to identify and deal
    with poor performers in a timely fashion.  In the meantime, the people
    who have to take up the slack are suffering (from overwork and feelings
    of resentment).  I don't consider it "whining" when a co-worker
    observes someone collecting a paycheck yet doing next to nothing to
    earn it.  Hard workers are often made to feel cheated and helpless when
    they see others getting away with this sort of thing.  They wonder why
    the boss doesn't see it.  They don't know what they can do about it. 
    So they grouse about it when they gain a sympathetic ear.
    
    We are slowly giving attention to some new organization styles that
    call for giving power to the workers to deal with grievances like this.
    Someone who isn't doing their share of the work is not only going to be
    discovered quickly, but the people who discover it are the same ones
    who have the authority to deal with it.  
    
    Some people want to take this idea to the extreme and totally eliminate
    "management" as a separate entity in the organization -- a position I
    vehemently disagree with, especially regarding salary action.  But as
    far as corrective action for poor performers goes, I think it makes
    sense to give responsibility for solving the problem to the people who
    are directly affected by it.
    
    Today, workers don't have this authority and fear placing themselves in
    a compromised position by "pointing the finger."  The result:
    frustration and resentment.  We CAN fix this. 
    
    
    Val

    .51 sounds good except for the ending.  We are still a free country
    with freedom of speech and the people are empowered to speak their mind
    when confronted with something they disagree with.  We do have the
    authority, we justy need to remember what it's like to be responsible.
    Those that fear confrontation and rely on management to take care of it
    will more than likely still whine about the situation because being as
    diversified and individualistic we as humans are, I would never handle
    a situation the same way as anyone else.  Break the fear barrier and
    speak out; breaking the ice is all it takes.
    
    Reg.

    re: .51
    
    power to the workers....isn't that the idea that the labor unions
    and communism were founded on...and look what they have done for those
    they represent....I'll pass thanks...

>   power to the workers....isn't that the idea that the labor unions
>    and communism were founded on...and look what they have done for those
>    they represent....I'll pass thanks...

Well, to tie this up with earlier comments - I think that one
of the things German labour unions have done is to secure
reasonable vacation allowances, reasonable hours/week *and*
not at the cost of production/profitability either.

Was this the sort of thing you meant?

    Well, to tie this up with earlier comments - I think that one
    of the things German labour unions have done is to secure
    ...
    
    
    tell that to people who suffered through wwI/wwII and who now think
    it's pretty scary that germany has again been united...!!!

Uh, what's your point?  That labour unions started
World War II?  As far as I see it, the conversation
has gone like this:

	.53:	unions are bad

	.54:	not necessarily; consider this example

	.55:	but Germany was responsible for two world wars

    Just because Germany was responsible for WWI and the Allied's harsh
    treatment of Germany after WWI led to WWII, does not mean that unions
    started WWI or WWII.  
    
    Alot of people are scared straight knowing that Germany is united
    again.  Will Germany give any reason for the world not to be scared?

    
    Re: .57
    
    These comments are inappropriate in this file.  Moderator?
    
    
    Steve
    

    re: .56/.57
    
    read the whole discussion, don't just take portions of it...
    
    2114.0-2114.39, .40, .51, .53, .54, .55
    
    no one said unions started WWII, that's taking the comments out of
    the context they were said in, read the whole discussion...!!!
    

    answer this: how come just about every other industrialized country in
    the world appear to have short work days/weeks, more vacation time,
    more paid holidays and are extremely profitable?  The US comes in way
    down the list with our minimum 8 hr day/40 hr week, approximate 2 week
    vacation time on employment start up (someplaces give none until you've
    been there 6 months to a year), and generally 10 paid holidays.  That
    amount of time doesn't even come close to equalling the amount of thime
    our kids have off from school so that we may share those days with them
    (can you say where are our family values?). Granted other countries
    have year round, 6 days a week school and minimal vacation time, but it
    usually coincides with their parents schedules.
    
    We take life too seriously.
    
    Reg.

    re: <<< Note 2114.60 by STOKES::BURT >>>
    
    >>>We take life too seriously.
    
    We take *work* too seriously (or at least some of us do). And given the
    current climate here it's hard not to. I wish I felt okay about taking
    even 2 weeks off this past summer, but there was the ever-present real
    threat that doing so could result in being put on the "list". 
    
    I have seen a serious change in my attitude towards work (it's become
    very much a job, much less of a challenge), and it's caused a change in
    how I view the rest of my life. I know I have been taking work too
    seriously, and it's caused me to have less joy in my "real" life. All
    the while my kids are getting older and the years rush by.
    
    Do you get the feeling that in the years to come many of us will look
    back on these years with anger and regret? Will things change, will
    work become a place to contribute, work hard and grow again? Or will we
    continue living in fear that we'll soon become excess?
    
    THorgan

personally, I'd swap our shorter minimum working day and number of holidays for 
your salary/tax levels any day.

    MY salary? you've got to be kidding, right? Maybe a manager's salary,
    but definitely not mine!  And you're taxes are that bad, too?  How's
    inflation? didn't think so.  Can we all so New World Order where all
    our pays are equal and everything else and only 2 classes: Rich 'n
    Poor.  Oh well, sorry for the rat hole but I could go on for hours with
    these type of issues.
    
    

>personally, I'd swap our shorter minimum working day and number of holidays for 
>your salary/tax levels any day.
    
    Fair enough... but you have to take our level of government
    (non-)services as well 8-) 8-) 8-)
    
    [face it: Americans complain about taxes not so much because they're
    high as because we feel like we get so little for our money... 
    European taxes go into building Autobahns and Eisenbahns and
    healthcare, whereas American taxes go to bailing out failed banks...]
    
    Just my $0.02 (minus $0.0076 fed. tax, $0.00119 state tax, $0.00159
                   FICA/Medicaire tax....) 8-)
    
    --jim
    

    And, in the US we are served by the best politicians money can buy ...  
    No aristocracy.  No sir ...  Sure, our government has a lot of debt
    and a lot of rampant deficit spending, but at least our policitians are
    all bought and paid for ...  ;^)
    
    Steve

In .51, I mentioned that Digital is considering self-managed teams as a way to
organize the company and potentially reduce frustration with some current manage-
ment and personnel practices.  [Not that self-managed teams won't introduce a
few new sources of frustration. ;-) ]  I apologize for choosing "Power to the
People" as a title for my note.  It was all I could think of at the time; I
certainly didn't mean to suggest that Digital would benefit from unionization or
anything of the sort.

Anyway, I'd like to share this mail message I recently received which summarizes
a presentation made by David Stone to some folks in the technical communications
arm of TNSG (called the Information Design & Consulting Group, or IDC).  Note the
first key message, and related comments that follow.


From:	ORION::CRONIN "23-Sep-1992 1253" 23-SEP-1992 12:54:04.12
To:	@STAFF,@MARTHASTAFF
CC:	
Subj:	Vickie Meagher's writeup of David's presentation to IDC 9/22

From:	CASDOC::MEAGHER "VICKI MEAGHER, CASE DOCUMENTATION, 381-0836, ZKO2-3/K35,
 OFFICE 3N58  23-Sep-1992 0950" 23-SEP-1992 10:01:57.52
To:	ART,BOOKIE::CRONIN
CC:	MEAGHER
Subj:	David Stone's comments to IDC people yesterday

I attended a presentation yesterday by David Stone called "Strategic Directions
in Digital and Roles for Information Providers" at LKG. The audience was IDC
people and the talk was tailored (somewhat) for us, though his slides were
mostly the slides he shows in his software talks. 

The key messages I heard from the talk (others may have heard other things, of
course) were the following:

1. David Stone likes the concept of self-organizing teams.

2. David Stone thinks we in IDC are too passive.

3. David Stone thinks we should continue trying to affect the user interface
   as much as possible as early as possible and not let others (such as
   engineers and their managers) stand in our way.

Comments about self-organizing teams:
-------------------------------------

Stone believes that self-organizing teams are "by far the most effective way to
get problems solved." He thinks they're the wave of the future, and that other
groups in Digital (not just IDC) will begin using them. Currently, the
logistics and supply chain people in manufacturing are also trying to figure
out how to use them, he said.

Stone acknowledged that a new method of doing the job is "unsettling," and also
said that "the problem with self-organizing teams is that every person has to
take responsibility for their own behavior."


Comments about being too passive:
---------------------------------

Stone said: "Sometimes in my darker moments I dream that you've all been bred
to be passive." (The "you" in this sentence refers, I believe, to documentation
people in general, though that wasn't entirely clear.) He said that maybe we're
passive because 10 years or so ago we would have been fired for speaking up, so
we're just showing natural adaptive behavior.

He'd like us to try harder to change the behavior of the people we have to
interact with. And we need to accept change more readily. "When is change going
to be over? Wrong question! Not in our lifetime." Instead, the questions should
be: "Are we changing in the right direction?" and "Are we changing fast
enough?" He told us: "Make a change in your personal behavior every day."

He mentioned the Law of Requisite of Variety, which means that you have to be
flexible in your behaviors or you won't survive. (Note: He also mentioned
survival in another context, when he said that Unix and open systems are
commoditizing software, just as hardware is now commoditized. I think he was
saying that, just as hardware now requires fewer people, software in the future
may require fewer people.)


Comments about changing the user interface:
-------------------------------------------

Stone is a big believer in developing software that's so easy to use it
requires little explanation. He thinks programmers aren't very good at
developing this software, because they "honestly don't know what people think
about computers" (meaning, they don't realize that most users don't really like
computers).

Stone would like a virus called "no manuals is good manuals" to infect everyone
in software development. The development goal should be to design any product
"so that the person using this thing can't get it wrong." He mentioned a book
called "Design of Everyday Things" as being a useful thing to read. (Note: I
think it's actually called "Psychology of Everyday Things" and the Digital
library has it. I've read it and it's pretty good.)

And Stone mentioned that we need to satisfy the different learning styles and
different using styles of all types of users. His style as a user is to skim
through documentation quickly and find out the framework of the things he's
going to need to know and where they are. Another style is to read through a
complex example. And sometimes users use a combination of styles. We have to
try to satisfy everyone.


Overall impressions:
--------------------

Most people were favorably impressed, I think. Stone is a good speaker. I had
already seen most of the slides he showed, but they were interesting for people
who hadn't seen them.

Stone spoke for 2 hours (including answering questions). Someone was taping the
talk, but I don't know what, if anything, will happen to the tape. If IDC edits
the tape down to 30 or 45 minutes, I would recommend that IDC people view the
tape. Listening to the full 2-hour tape would be kind of tedious, however.

    
    	Its amazing how people cannot focus on the issue at hand. The
    initial note is about those worthless pieces of s**t that DO NOT WORK
    THERE SHIFT!!! Digital does not pay its employee's to work when it is
    convenient to them. 
    
    	Come in at 7:00, leave early every once in a while and play golf.
    Walk out of a meeting to catch a car pool. Because I'm an "engineer" I
    write code what ever time I feel like. THAT's UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	Guess why were in trouble? Maybe because we spend the morning
    bitching in this stupid notes conference, leave early and play golf and
    come back tomorrow and cover our ass by writing worthless code, playing
    numbers games and building shoddy products.
    
    	I challenge this company to stay out of this stupid notes
    conference for at least 1 week and do there JOB and see what the
    results will be.
    
    	By the way, it wasn't 18 hours, it turned out to be 38 hours. And
    yes, I work at the CSC in Colorado and get paid to support our products
    that make millions of dollars per hour for our customers and when that
    product fails, we work 38 hours to fix it so OUR customers can make
    millions of dollars per hour and I get paid for and 8 hour day.
    
    	If you think this or this companies policies are unfair then sit on
    your ass and get TFSO'ed and go out and find out what the real world is
    like. I can give you plenty of contacts at Microsoft where an 80 hour
    work week is DEMANDED from its employees...
    
    	Now go back to work!!! (Please note that this entry occured on
    Saturday @ 23:00 while I'm working on a program to improve efficiency
    for the CSC)
    
    	Mark Fisher CSC/CS - Please respond by mail as I only read this
    conference at home, not at work

    it's nice to know that someone agrees with me about the amount 
    of time spent in notes by this organization.  I can understand 
    technical notes dealing with work, or even policy notes, but
    the sheer amount of noting that goes on is frightening!
    
    Usually, I come in early, or do it at home, but one day I missed
    soapbox for a day (24 hours) and there were 1078 new notes.
    
    In my oppinion, DEC should restrict access to non-job related
    notes to after hours.
    
    Dan
    

    re.67 Listen up, bub, I often work at a desk with multiple terminals,
    and note on one while waiting for the other one to respond, or
    print forms. Or I take a short break to get off my feet. I don't 
    answer to *you* and my boss seems happy enough with my work.
    
    So what's your problem? 

    RE: .67, others-
    
    	Just an nit- and a minor <FLAME>- if you want to make a point, at
    least get the THERE, THEIR, THEY'RE part right, fercryinoutloud.
    
    	Carry on.
    Phil

    	Well, thank God for martyrs like Mark. That's all I have to say.
    They'll save the company for the rest of us low-lifes, working THEIR
    80-hour work weeks. I just wish I wasn't so concerned about spending
    time with my family, improving my health, and enjoying life so that I
    could stay here at my desk all hours of the night and help turn this
    company around. Funny thing is that I've noticed that many of these
    people who work 80-100 hours a week don't seem to get as much done as a
    lot of people do working 40 hours. Go figure.
    	It's been my experience that the number of people who abuse the
    freedoms at DEC are a small minority. Most people put in their 40
    hours/week and then a little extra on demand when necessary. I've put
    in bursts of 60-80 hours/week, but I try hard NOT to have to do this
    very often. If you're in a situation where you have to work this much
    all the time, you ought to closely reexamine your mental health. This
    is not good for you, and it's not good for the company.

    This reply is directed to those who want to restrict note usuage.
    
    I have a windows terminal and I note when:
    
    * My printer is printing a contract (can take anywhere from 30 seconds to 
      10 minutes depending on length)
    * I'm 'storing or retrieving' or a contract (same time as above)
    
    I note because:
    * It relieves some of the 'tension and stress'
    * It passes the time waiting for the above
    
    My manager hasn't had a problem with me noting.  Want to call her and
    verify.  Call me off-line 327-3142.

>    
>    	Guess why were in trouble? Maybe because we spend the morning
>    bitching in this stupid notes conference, 

And what is the above?  Regardless of the time you entered it.  If it is a
'stupid' conference, why do you even bother reading it?

>    come back tomorrow and cover our ass by writing worthless code, playing
>    numbers games and building shoddy products.

Are you saying everyone does this?  What percentage would you estimate do this?
    
>    	I challenge this company to stay out of this stupid notes
>    conference for at least 1 week and do there JOB and see what the
>    results will be.

Can you explain how you know that the people noting here are NOT doing their 
jobs?  Can you actually claim to KNOW what the jobs are of the noters here?
Or what their official work hours are?  Or what their job performance is?
    
>    that make millions of dollars per hour for our customers and when that
>    product fails, we work 38 hours to fix it so OUR customers can make
>    millions of dollars per hour and I get paid for and 8 hour day.

And of course, it all boils down to that evil 'noting'.  So, why do you note?
Wouldn't your time be better spent elsewhere?
    
>    	Now go back to work!!! 

You assume people are not!  

>(Please note that this entry occured on
>    Saturday @ 23:00 while I'm working on a program to improve efficiency
>    for the CSC)

So?  Other people here say the equivalent, but get accused of not doing
their jobs, or doing it poorly.  
    

>    Usually, I come in early, or do it at home, 

You still use Digital resources for it.  If there is too much noting going on, 
wouldn't that be true regardless of the time of day/night the notes were
entered?  

>but one day I missed
>    soapbox for a day (24 hours) and there were 1078 new notes.

So, why not do something personal and stop reading the notes in SOAPBOX?  That
way at least one person (you) is fighting back.  If enough people do the same
thing, then the problem disappears.

>    In my oppinion, DEC should restrict access to non-job related
>    notes to after hours.

As several people have highlighted several times over several years:  Whose
'after hours'?

    
    Raging at noters will help nothing. Notes has helped this company far
    more than hindered it, or it wouldn't be still available.
    
    /a

    Apparently some fellow employees are not aware that some of us are
    capable of multi-tasking?
    
    K
    

    Yes, but is the scheduling algorithm sufficiently pre-emptive?

    considering some people can't think and talk at the same time, I can
    believe that others would think most of us can only handle one task at
    a time.  
    
    Do not compare me to you (collective, general you).
    
    Reg.

    re .71 Right on!  I don't know about others but I read/write to notes
    only during my break(s) or lunch half hour.  Right now its 14:37.  I
    have about 7 minutes to get this into notes and back to work.  Thats
    the way MY job is formated, i.e. notes only during breaks/lunch or
    after hours.  If others can effectively get their jobs done while
    using notes more power to them, I wish I had that option.  What counts
    is whether you do your job, and do it well.  You can answer that
    question and determine whether use of notes is appropriate in your
    context. 
    
    Eliminating notes during working hours is, IMO simply removing one
    more stress reliever.  God knows the 'luxuries' we used to have in the
    warehouse have all pretty much been taken away by now.  All that seems
    to do is increase our stress level, the job still gets done as it did
    before but with a more stressed out unhappy crew.  Happy we still have
    jobs YES, but it sure isn't fun like it used to be. 
    
    Jeff