Conference 7.286::digital

RE:    <<< Note 2105.0 by CARWSH::MURRAY "A Thousand Points of Blight" >>>


     Why don't you just send in the regular form for withdrawing from the 
stock purchase plan and get your money in two weeks.  I didn't see anything 
there that precludes the normal practice.

                                         Greg

Why can't you just withdraw from the stock program the way
that an employee can do?   That should cause your contributions
to stop immediately (I don't know what it does towards
getting back what you have already paid in).

I suspect this is just a case of poor thinking on DEC's part;
it doesn't deal sensibly with the case where 

	date_now + severance_period < next_stock_purchase_date

--

Why should it be illegal?  You volunteered to give 'em the
money each week, without interest becoming due. I bet if you 
go back and read the rules you'll find that it says in details 
what happens when you're "terminated".  Didn't pay attention
to those bits?  Me neither!  The only strange thing here is
that you know in advance when your termination date is (i.e.,
end of severance period) and can therefore tell it's a
pointless investment.

Maybe it has something to do with Digital buying the stock for a non-DEC
employee (ie your 9 weeks is up and we are not a broker, we only buy for
current employees.

I would withdraw from the plan and get the money now if you want it.  I would
not expect DEC to hold onto the money and then purchace it for you on DEC 1st
when you no longer work for the company. 

Brian

        re .1,.2

        Thanks for your thoughtful replies:

        >>  Why don't you just send in the regular form for withdrawing
            from the..

        >>  Why can't you just withdraw from the stock program the way...

        But, 

        WHY DOES DEC MAKE IT THE _DEFAULT_ BEHAVIOR TO KEEP COLLECTING
        THE MONEY WHEN IT IS _KNOWN_ THAT THE EMPLOYEE IS DERIVED THE
        BENEFIT OF IT??????

        IF DEC IS "INVOLUNTARILY" TERMINATING AN EMPLOYEE, THEY HAVE NO
        RIGHT TO WITHDRAW "VOLUNTARY" STOCK MONEY IF THE TERMINATED
        EMPLOYEE IS ASSURED OF NO BENEFIT.

        C'mon, guys, WAKE UP!!!  (I guess 12 years of  Reaganbushenomix
        will do this to a people.)

        Don't you think that many TFSO'ed folks are gonna let this drop
        by the wayside in the confusion that exists when one is being
        let go (perhaps you're too good to have ever been disemployed)? 
        How many folks have forgotten to "just withdraw from the stock
        program"???  What was their money doing while it was being
        withheld, hanging out in suspended animation?  Can you say "fat
        chance"?

        I submit that it is unconscionable for DEC to keep collecting
        the cash and that the onus is upon the DEC to immediately refund
        the money or let the employee buy the stock up to the amount
        they've put in, or refund the money _plus_ interest to reimburse
        the employee for loss of use of the money.

        I know you guys don't want to get TFSO'ed but, c'mon, gimme a
        goddam break!

        RM

Wrong?  Well, yes.   Our difference is simply this: you apparently
expect the system to behave in an intelligent manner and when you
get screwed by it, you're (understandably) outraged and might even
think it's a deliberate tactic to get DEC a free loan from you.
I on the other hand am a cynic of long standing, and attribute 
this all to standard DEC operating procedure, rather than malice
aforethought.

It's quite probable that "they" haven't even figured it out, in
which case your actions (taking it to personnel) might be the
first step in getting it sorted out.  Good luck!

re .5;

"Lack of forethought" rather than "malice aforethought"?

    regardless of the situation, I think we can do without
    profanity in a public notes file.
    
    Thank you
    

    onus?

    
    I doubt that it would be legal for Digital to terminate withholding. 
    As I recall the agreement, it calls for the company to keep you active
    in the plan until you cease being on the payroll or yourself request to
    withdraw.  There is no provision for automatically terminating
    participation if it becomes known that you will be off the payroll at
    a future date.
    
    

    	I totally agree with .0.
    
    	Re: .2  I don't see the stock option plan as a "voluntary"
    	        situation at all and I don't mean that it is mandatory
    		either. It is a business agreement pure and simple.
    		The employee agrees to make weekly payments and DEC
    		agrees to cut 15% off the lowest price. Okay there is
    		a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo in there but I view it
    		like any other contract. A contract is usually binding
    		only as long as both parties continue to agree on the
    		terms. In this case, DEC is declaring the employee to
    		be ineligable for the contract. Under most circumstances
    		of a contract the negating party would be obligated to
    		make some compensation for terminating the contract. In 
    		this situation we see just the opposite. Not only is the
    		terminated employee *not* going to receive the compensation
    		originally bargined for but he/she will *LOSE* money based
    		simply on the loss of value of that money since the 
    		investment period began. And just to add insult to injury,
    		DEC will continue to take x% out of his/her check until
    		the person is completely severed from the corporation.
    		That stinks. I suspect that somebody thought about it and 
    		decided that nobody would fight back because it is a 
    		(relatively speaking) monitarily insignificant situation.
    
    
    	 I also suspect the base noter is in such a state of turmoil right 
    	now that facetious answers and comments are not only unwanted but
    	also destructive to that person's final view of this corporation.
    	Once again, it seems like a little sensitivity is in order for
    	DEC's policy makers and its employees.
    
    	 I also strongly agree with the previous note, profanity and
    	vulgarity, though understandable, do not belong in a forum such
    	as this.
    
    	In my (not so) "humble opinion"...
    	Glenn

re .10

I agree that it's a business contract.  What I was trying to say (but
apparently didn't succeed) was that if you go back and look at the
small print in the contract, you'll probably find that this termination
arrangement *was* spelled out in the contract. 

I don't have a handy copy of the prospectus or whatever it's called,
so I can't do that myself.  On the other hand, I do remember seeing
a whole bunch of clauses about what happens if you're terminated.

(I didn't think my answers were facetious; did you?)

Well, I've calmed down somewhat and the suggestions to read the terms of the
agreement with Investor Services definitely have a point.

I think it may well be an oversight, but until I've gotten to a point in my
life where these 'oversights' get closer to being balanced, I always suspect
that the person/organization who's got my money may not have my best interests
in mind.

DEC should really get some decent sociologists involved in figuring out how
to serve up these packages (or maybe psychologists) so that we, the packaged
don't feel _had_.  

Anyways, I've enjoyed my stay at DEC and continue to marvel at the wonder of
notes and the ENET.  Is there a "signing off" note?

Regards,

RM

	Just a quick comment:

	I'm sure that when a package is being together, this kind of thing
	was not considered.  Those laid off in another couple of weeks
	will still be eligible - terminating them immediately from the
	plan would deprive them of expected income.

	An alternative would be some sort of list in the package that
	mentions the possibility of this, and possibly other similar,
	things occuring.  For example, many people purchase Savings Bonds.
	This money is taken out weekly, but the amount needed to buy a bond
	may take months to accumulate.  If someone won't have enough
	to buy a bond when the 9 weeks runs out, there should be some
	mechanism to get that stopped too.

	I think that the best way to handle it is to inform the employee
	of the choices and how to handle them, but leave the final choices
	up to the employee.  Like .0, I don't expect people to remember
	these kinds of issues in a very stressful situation - they may need 
	a little extra help.
	

RE: .13

>	I'm sure that when a package is being together, this kind of thing
>	was not considered.

I am sorry that I can not agree.  This process has been going on for a couple
of years now so this is NOT a new thing.  I too am being TFSO'ed and thought
that this was a strange way to handle the stock deductions.  I am going to
try to stop the deduction but will not have time to tell you if I succeed.

Lee G.

    What this boils down to is that, unlike its heritage, Digital is NOT
    doing the right thing!

    from what i understand, one can EMAIL in a sell/change/STOP and as long
    as it's recieved before the next payroll cutting period, it become
    effective immediately and one doesn't have to wait 2 weeks. (unless of
    course one has requested sale and is waiting on the money and it takes
    2 weeks to get to you which is another thing I don't understand).
    
    I don't have the email access handy right now, maybe someone can help
    out or if I get a chance later I find it and post it here.
    
    Reg.

    RE: .7
    yes TFSO is quite profane

re: .4

Could it be? that maybe? it has something to do with the fact that you
are STILL an employee (technically) for that nine week period, collecting
a paycheck just like you would if you were here? Thus, because a paycheck
is 'cut' for you, all the normal deductions are also made, tax, ltd, insurance
etc, etc, etc. I would think that it would be reasonable business practice to 
just continue to print the checks as always than to all of a sudden have to 
make program/system changes to process exceptions.
COMON' give us a break! (btw, we are not your enemy, we are not out to get you,
we even empathize with you) but, there exists within the system a method
for you to get the results that you desire. If the default behavior was to
terminate an employee's involvement with the stock plan, I could really see
a problem when a employee is TFSO'd and the 'buy date' falls within the 9
week period. They get by default, their money back immediately thus losing out
on some quick profit. Wow, can you imagine what outrage that would cause?
At least you have an option.

Maybe, I'm all wrong about this, and I'm sure you all will let me know if I am.

- George

    I too have been TSFO'd and am not unhappy with it....
    
    However, one thing that was pointed out to me that "in the turmoil" of
    being TSFO'd may be forgotten is if you have a 401K and/or getting
    pension money back, DO NOT LET DIGITAL CUT YOU A CHECK FOR THE AMOUNT
    OF MONEY YOU WILL BE GIVEN.  ROLL IT OVER INTO AN IRA OR ANOTHER 401K.
    
    Why?  Because, if they cut you a check, they (DEC Investor Services)
    will keep 20% of it as a charge (I don't know what it all covers, 
    besides issuing the check).  Also, when you put it into an IRA or 
    another 401K yourself, they (the other bank) will ask where the other 
    20% is, and they will say, oh no, that's a "withdrawl" and will charge 
    you a 10% PENALTY.
    
    As for the other automatic withdrawls from you paycheck, check with you
    PSA if you want them changed (i.e. if you elected to have more than the
    default 50% taken out for the new disability plan).
    
    It has been nice working for DEC and I hope that Digital can turn
    itself around.  As for me, onward to better things...
    
    Sue Dornan :)

    
    
    when you leave Digital, by TFSO, by terminating, by retiring, by
    whatever, you do not have to withdraw the SAVE money. You can leave
    it there if you want. If you want to transfer it to new IRA, have the
    new custodian arrange for the transfer as .19 suggests. It is easier
    both now and when you do your taxes for this year. 
    
    To receive a pension lump sum you must retire from Digital. You must
    be at least 55 to do this. (You will also receive a lump sum if the 
    net present value is less than 3500, but anyone with any time at the 
    company will be larger than that.)  
    
    If you are TFSO and do not elect or can't elect to retire you will not
    get a lump sum pension payout. 
    

    <they will keep 20% of it as a charge>

    Mmm, are you sure about the "charge"? I can imagine (but barely) money
    being deducted for estimated income tax, but have difficulty with the
    notion that the over 30k I have in SAVE is going to be "charged" over
    6k if I receive the SAVE funds as cash.

    I would guess the '20%' in question is the Early Withholding that
    financial institutions were required to withhold and send to the IRS if
    a signed Backup Withholding Exemption Certificate was not on file.
    
    Only a guess, but I would be up in arms if DEC Investors Services
    charged a 20% fee for their "services."

    
    RE:  SAVE rollovers
    
    	Please don't get the idea these are DEC's rules - they are from the
    IRS.
    
    	A.  If you 'receive' the money (unlike a bank to bank rollover),
    the holding bank is required to 'withhold' 20% to cover the early
    withdrawal penalty (10%) and the income tax on the extra 'income'.
    
    	B.  The receiving bank will NOT withhold anything, the penalty has
    already been withheld.
    
    	Solution:  Don't 'do it yourself' - leave the funds where they are
    until you set up a new account, authorize them to get it from your SAVE
    account.
      No penalty, no extra income to be taxed, no withholding, no problem.
    
    JN
    also with H&R Block

    RE: 16
    
    rEG,
    
    You can call in...the touchtone number is 493-3431..you'll also need
    your code...The same amount of time is insituted..well, actually,
    if the  request is submitted prior to Thursday 12:00 noon...it should
    take affect the next week....
    
    

    Investor Services is quite busy this week, but after holding for
    quite a while, I got a friendly and sympathetic human being who
    told me how things will work....
    
    so, to cancel your remaining stock call dtn 223-6000, press 2#
    to get general information, then press 6# to make changes to your
    stock plan.  The computer voice asks for your badge and security
    code.  To cancel, you would then press 1 to change the percent
    being withheld to 0.  Withholding will stop the next possible
    pay period and a check will be mailed for all funds already withheld.
    
    I also asked questions about SAVE.  It seems that they only deduct
    penalities and taxes from a SAVE check if you request it.  I don't
    actually have to do anything about SAVE right now.  I can roll it
    over to an IRA, Keogh, or 401k anytime in the future...oh, that
    applies if you've got more than ~$3500 in the plan.  Less than that
    I didn't ask.
    
    Hope it helps.
    
    sherry

    Isn't that 20% w/holding supposed to take effect Jan 1, 1993?  I
    thought one was still safe to "hand carry" their money to where ever
    they wanted to put it until that date.  Although, I still would just
    ask them to electronically transfer it from here to my new location
    without me touching it.  I just don't think I could control myself with
    _all_ that money in my hand 8^)
    
    Reg.