Conference 7.286::digital

    Re .0 (Ed):
    
    These are sour times at Digital; any of us can feel the tap on our
    shoulder that says we're about to be visited by the Angel of Layoff. 
    This is irrespective of many things, including seniority: _all_ of us
    are vulnerable.
    
    This causes tension.
    
    Add to that the fact that the computer industry is changing rapidly,
    and that the change is both technological and economic, and things are
    in a terrible state of flux.
    
    Morale, as a result, is at the lowest ebb I've seen it in my 24+ years
    here at the company.
    
    Worse, Digital is a lot different from when I joined it.  I'm not
    speaking of politics and, umm, hand-kissing; it's deeper.  One of the
    advantages of a startup, especially a pioneering startup, is that it's
    flexible, adaptable, and all that.  By contrast, _any_ large company
    has inertia.
    
    When Digital was a lot younger, the company _created_ certain markets:
    we became well established because we were always the leader, and
    sometimes the only player.   But times have changed, and Digital has
    competition in many different areas.  
    
    Interestingly, the computer market has always been driven by buzzwords.
    When we started, it became wordlength; today, it's lots of things. 
    Ditto with some cliches.  
    
    Now the point isn't that buzzwords or cliches are Wrong or Bad; it's
    just that buzzwords alone won't do it.
    
    A few points:
    
    * Open Systems was a _necessary_ response to a market segment; certain
      proposals depended on having something a potential customer would
      consider "open"; and not necessarily the weay Digital defines it. 
      Ignore _that_ kind of situation at your peril ("open systems" seems
      to be evolving to POSIX compliance, but even that's not cast in
      concrete yet).
    
    * "Superior Platform" is what everybody wants to claim.  Whether we're
      talking at the chip, board, or box level, it's a factor potential
      customers, including VARs, are interested in.  If not, why did H-P
      put up a billboard outside of DECWORLD '92 claiming that their
      processor was a better deal than the "Alpha" chip?  Why has Sun tried
      to present its SPARC chips as "industry standards"?  
    
    The importance of _industry_ buzzwords (as opposed to those within
    Digital alone) is that they're a clear indication of what people are
    interested in.
    
    The danger of buzzwords is that using them doesn't alter reality: they
    might be a start, but, to take a well-known Digital example, one of our
    slogans used to be "We change the way the world thinks."  Somehow, "the
    world" didn't seem to think so.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    The managers have the jobs skills or rather believe they have the
    skills to navigate the highly political channels at Digital..  They
    have a stake in the status quo like you wouldn't believe.
    
    Do they have the skills to write an honest business plan, keep a
    profit and loss statement, meet the payroll, AND win the satisfaction
    and loyalty of customers?���

       
    Re: .1
    
    Believe me, I understand the tension and the role of buzzwords and 
    cliches', I simply am calling attention to the fact that there are 
    *MANY* people running around using these to cover up their own 
    ignorance.  
    
    I think Patrick's reply hit the mark.  We seem to have a class of
    people whose sole skill set is negotiating the political quagmire.
    They are good at parroting the correct syllables, but are clueless
    as to the real meaning of what they are saying.
    
    Fortunately, I've seen a number of such persons leave the company.
    What makes me bitter is that some of them will walk away with a wad
    of cash from SERP and straight into a higher paying job with a DEC
    customer or partner.
    
    -Ed

>     <<< Note 1982.3 by FORTSC::CHABAN "Make *PRODUCTS* not consortia!!" >>>

>   I think Patrick's reply hit the mark.  We seem to have a class of
>   people whose sole skill set is negotiating the political quagmire.
>   They are good at parroting the correct syllables, but are clueless
>   as to the real meaning of what they are saying.
 
Yep, and here's a pretty good example. What on earth is the point of
writing DigitalSpeak such as "optimize their ability to planfully execute
their human resource management responsibility".  ??????

 Digital - Human Resource Calendar on VTX
	{Livewire, U.S. News, 7-Jul-92}
   The U.S. Personnel organization is introducing a Human Resource Calendar 
 which will delineate the organization's most significant events for the fiscal
 year. The objective of this calendar is to provide managers with timely
 information which will optimize their ability to planfully execute their human
 resource management responsibility. The calendar is also intended to provide
 employees with advance notice of important Personnel activities so that they
 may manage their interactions with the Personnel organization in a more
 planned manner. Examples of significant events are salary and stock planning,
 schedules for open enrollment periods, affirmative action plan development
 schedules, etc. This calendar is now on VTX. To access this on-line
 information, at the dollar prompt, type VTX HR_EVENTS. For more information,
 call Doris Hesch at DTN 223-9397.

Attempted rewrite:

The U.S. Personnel organisation has introduced a calendar which shows the 
main Personnel dates for FY93. 

The aim of the calendar is to help managers plan their Personnel tasks 
more effectively. An additional aim is to notify all employees of 
forthcoming Personnel events, so that employees are informed about such events
in advance. The calendar includes information on salary and stock planning
timetables, schedules for open enrolment, affirmative action plan dates, etc.

The calendar is available on VTX via the HR_KEYWORD from the main 
Corporate Menu. For more information, call Doris Hesch at DTN 223-9397.

    re .4
    
    Your translation is infinitly better than the original.  
    
    Who *writes* this trash anyway???  Why is this person still employed?
    
    -ellie

    re: .4
    
    Since it was hitherto unknown to me that is important, nay imperative,
    that I "manage" my "interactions with the Personnel organization in a
    more planned manner", I am felicitous just shy of the point of tears
    that said organization has provided the general employee population
    (and specifically managers) with the means to intimate themselves with
    those temporal milestones that can efficate said intercourse.  
    
    Joseph E. Tomkowitz, Esq.

    
    Steve,
    
    But didn't we used to create the buzzwords, slogans and standards for
    the industry?
    
    And for those of you you are going to say that we still do, I pose to 
    you this question.  How come people aren't aware of it anymore?
    
    Mike

    
    well once again, Patrick has quite accurately hit the nail on the head.
    I'll be radical, but Personel is always in some need to justify their
    existance, and all those doublespeak adgenda's provide all sorts of
    platforms for folk to succeed while having a negative impact.
    
    I believe it was Robert Townsend, in the 50's, who said the first move
    in straightening out a corporation is to fire Personel enmass.  Has
    a tendency to get folks focused on the real task at hand
    (profitability).    No one, can ever convince me that Digital Personel
    is looking out for the employee!   After 17 years, all I've seen them
    do is create more criteria that the critically hopeless can succeed
    by.
    
    bob

From Note 1969.12, SQM::MACDONALD ...
    
         If DEC and IBM were in the dog food business I would expect
         them to approach me this way:  DEC comes in and reads the label
         of ingredients amid a dissertation on nutrition.  IBM comes in and
         tells me that their dog food will leave my dog with a shiny coat;
         bright, clear eyes; and a wagging tail.  I don't know anything
         about dog nutrition, but I can understand a dog with a wagging
         tail.
    
I'd say we could probably use a few more people who didn't get too mired
in details if it'll help sell stuff. Sure, they have to be carefull about
how and what they do but we _need_ these people.

    re: .8
    
>                        No one, can ever convince me that Digital Personel
>    is looking out for the employee!  
    
    I don't think you'll find anyone in Personnel who will even try to
    make such a claim.  Their primary responsibility is to management, not
    the employee.
    

    Re .7 (Mike):
    
    >But didn't we used to create the buzzwords, slogans and standards for
    >the industry?
    
     Sometimes unwillingly.  We effectively created the minicomputer
    market; and the original definition of "minicomputer" was effectively
    based on the PDP-8 specs; however, wee fought with Herculean effort to
    keep everybody from calling them "minicomputers."  The classic Digital
    handbook was _The Small Computer Handbook_, which outlined everything
    we could say, technically, about PDP-8 CPUs and peripherals.  Finally,
    when the entire industry continued to use the term, we capitulated and
    started using it ourselves.
    
    We created a number of comparison standards.  The VT series of
    terminals, especially the VT100, VT200, and VT300 models, have become
    "standards" to the extent other manufacturers use their characteristics
    to compare against their own, but that's all.  VAX computers were (and
    sometimes still are) used as performance standards, too.   But, other
    than identidfying our products, what did we originate that's become a
    standard or buzzword (other than, Lord help us, "functionality")?
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    the whole computer industry is full of buzzwords, it is nothing to do
    with DEC, it is the nature of the business. it is one of the businesses 
    where you can pretend you know things and get away with it, as long as 
    you can talk fast, and leave the meetings early befor others get the
    chance to think more closely about what you said ;-)
    
    /nasser

RE:   <<< Note 1982.1 by HELIX::KALLIS "Pumpkins ... Nature's greatest gift." >>>

>    The danger of buzzwords is that using them doesn't alter reality: they
>    might be a start, but, to take a well-known Digital example, one of our
>    slogans used to be "We change the way the world thinks."  Somehow, "the
>    world" didn't seem to think so.
    
What we needed was to change the way WE think!

Dileep

    re replies .8 and .10
    
   *Personnel is there to protect the interests of the CORPORATION, not
    just management, who can also get clobbered by the Orange Book gang
    as often as we do.  
    
    
    * Basic Intro to Personnel Management 101.

          I heard this one today -
      
          Three people are stranded on a desert island with one tree -
    IBM,HP and DEC.The question arises what to do with the tree.
    
    IBM - We should leave it alone,we may need it for shade.
    
    HP  - Let's cut it down and use it for firewood to cook some crabs.
    
    
    
    DEC - It looks like walnut - let's cut it down and make a conference
          table out of it.
    

    
    I guess what I am trying to say Steve is that we have lost our vision.
    Digital has it now, and we did.
    
    Inside the corporation we are hearing all about how the future's so
    bright....we have this, that and the other thing.  We get out in the 
    world and mention Digital and people ask what's wrong.  
    
    Mike

    Re .16 (Mike):
    
   > Inside the corporation we are hearing all about how the future's so
   >bright....we have this, that and the other thing.  We get out in the 
   >world and mention Digital and people ask what's wrong.  
    
    Where are you located?  From what I've heard, morale is very low
    throughout most of the company.  The future's mutable, and whoever of
    us may survive the next TFSO wave _may_ be in a position to help make
    this future bright; but right now, the future can't be bright without a
    lot of effort.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Sorry Steve, I wasn't clear.  The stuff we hear from "corporate", not
    amongst employees.
    
    
    Mike

    
    Now honestly, whoever told you that the company would provide you with
    a high degree of morale. geeeeeeeeesh. 
    
    Seriously, Morale has been TSFO'd.
    
    It will possibly, maybe, no promises..return at some later date.
                                           
    

    Suppose you were asked to work longer hours, spend weeks away from your
    family, take a pay cut, a benefits cut, to help Digital's bottom line,
    what would your reaction be?
    
    Supposed you were urged "Maybe if we stop being selfish and work
    longer, harder, and smarter, then we'll reverse the trend.  Hey! It's a
    crazy idea, but it just may work..."
    
    What would your reaction be?
    
    (Please don't assume that anything like this will be asked, I'm not a
    prophet, I'm a software consultant.)
    

re       <<< Note 1982.20 by SDSVAX::SWEENEY "Rum, Romanism, Rebellion" >>>
>                   -< The Call for Great Personal Sacrifice >-

>    Suppose you were asked to work longer hours, ........... etc.

	Well, why don't YOU just suppose that "we" (I) have already 
done a lot of all of that ?

	But in somewhat more direct response to your (begging) 
question..... We'd probably go along with it  *_IF_*  we believed that 
the rest of the team was also putting in another 23% and that the 
direction in which we were being told to pull was "right", etc.

	Errrr, only the lead dogs get a change of scenery, etc.

	R

    Patrick,
    
    This has already happened.  In our unit, our job codes were changed
    from 2's to 4's.  When we were 2's, there was no overtime available, 
    and now that we are 4's we are expected to "do what it takes".  In many
    cases there were no wage increases to go along with the wage class
    increases.
    
    Mike

    Re . 20 (Patrick):

    >Suppose you were asked to work longer hours, spend weeks away from your
    >family, take a pay cut, a benefits cut, to help Digital's bottom line,
    >what would your reaction be?
    
    Something akin to this happened a number of years ago.  Rather than
    layoffs, everyone was asked to work an extra hour a day (without
    compensation).  I heard no complaints while this was going on.

    >Supposed you were urged "Maybe if we stop being selfish and work
    >longer, harder, and smarter, then we'll reverse the trend.  Hey! It's a
    >crazy idea, but it just may work..."
    
    Working longer, harder, and smarter is okay; in fact, it's something we
    should be doing already.  The problem is that the _company's_ problem
    may have a much different solution than "merely" working longer,
    harder, and smarter.

    Reminds me of a story of a policeman who happened to see someone who
    had a bit much to drink on his hands and knees by a lamp post one
    night.  The cop walks over to the guy and asks, "What's the problem?"
     
    "Nothing, officer," said the fellow.  "I'm just looking for my
    watch."

    "Oh," said the cop.  "It dropped off your wrist here?"

    The fellow shook his head.  "No, it fell off my wrist over there."  He
    pointed to another street corner.

    "But," said the cop, "if you dropped it over there, why are you looking
    for it here?"

    "The light's better here."

    The moral of the story: be sure you're looking in the right place for
    what you want to find.

    Steve Kallis, Jr.

      

re: .20

>    Suppose you were asked to work longer hours, spend weeks away from your
>    family, take a pay cut, a benefits cut, to help Digital's bottom line,
>    what would your reaction be?
    
Pat;

   My answer would probably be a resounding NO!
   Why? Because I had done all that in another life prior to DEC only
   to see the savings squandered, and I DO mean Squandered! away.

   In the end, I was out of a job anyway.

    Look at 1985.*, for example... :-)
    
    But, hi  tech  ain't  the  only act in town, ie healthcare, government, 
    legal, etc...  We just produce it faster.  Wellllllllllllllllll...maybe 
    not as fast as government, but that's debatable.
    
    You know you've been  in  this business too long when the acronyms come 
    around for the second and  third  times,  but  with different meanings.  
    Consider CPM.  Critical Path Method  or Control Program/Microprocessor?  
    PERT.  Program Evaluation Review Technique or  shampoo?   etc.  Since I 
    have CRS to excess, being middle aged, this is really bothersome.
    
    I suspect the buzzword  bit  is  social  in  origin.  Probably we could 
    commission a joint  government/industry/academic  study  on  this using 
    Digital equipment.  As  to  how much it would contribute to our profit, 
    who knows....
    
    Anyway,  Robert  Townsend gets my vote for  the  best  single  book  on 
    management  ever  written,  in  UP  THE ORGANIZATION [mentioned  a  few 
    replies ago.]
    
    I think we need to figure out a way  to  have  us behave as a small(er) 
    company, er companies.  Take out the bureaucracy.  Force decisions down 
    to lowest levels, eliminating unecessary intervening layers.  Simple in 
    theory, implementation is something else...
    
         Some parts written :^&
         

    Pat, 
    
    one thing i've noticed over the years is when I'm at the office late
    doing a quote etc. there are people around that are doing simular
    things but after 5pm it's rare to see anyone over a SRI 40 around.  The
    lights are out and the doors shut in the walled offices.
    
    So who is it that is going to ask me to work longer hours?

   Re: working harder, longer, ...
   
   This is fine and dandy.  But if we are working harder and longer on
   the wrong thing it is to no avail.

    Reminds me of something my father told me.  "I discovered that your
    mother's ability to spend always exceeded my ability to earn."  His
    response to spousal demands for more resources had previously been to
    work harder, longer and smarter.  But, somehow it never resulted in
    getting ahead.  Further, my mother had inherited about $250K which she
    spent on various "business" ventures (horses, dogs, fish, guinea pigs, 
    worm farm).  These ventures looked successful to others since you can give
    any business the appearance of looking successful by throwing money at
    it.  She spent very little of her inheritance on family.  In fact,
    her expenses often overlapped into family expenses, adding to my
    father's burdens.  This basically continued until she ran out of money.
    It took about 25 years for this to happen.  Once she ran out of money
    she basically cleaned up her act and they get along a lot better now.
    
    The lessons my father learned might well apply to Digital.  That is,
    I think real improvement in Digital will more likely come from Digital 
    being forced to do business well (likely after losing enough money) rather 
    than from workers continually trying to work smarter, harder and longer.
    
    Steve

.20>  Suppose you were asked to work longer hours, spend weeks away from your
.20>  family, take a pay cut, a benefits cut, to help Digital's bottom line,
.20>  what would your reaction be?
    
    My reaction would be that I've been there before, about ten or eleven
    years ago, on ML 5-2 (before the days of three-letter site codes). 
    There was a salary freeze, and our group (CT Engineering, a/k/a the Pro
    Project) was asked to add an extra ten hours a week to our workweek.
    
    I remembered this when the Jack Smith memo about working hours went
    around.  I almost dropped him a line in reply, pointing out that nobody
    complained because we all knew success would reflect our efforts.  As
    we say around here about the Pro, "the results speak for themselves."
    
    BTW, for the young whippersnappers reading this, the Pro series may
    have been the biggest flop in Digital history, at least until the
    VAX-9000.
    
    Don't get me wrong, I might accept the need for sacrifice again, but it 
    would be more likely if I saw KO following Mike Dell's lead.  Hopefully, 
    long before asking grunts to take the hit...

I believe that the 30%+ growth rate of the late '70s and the rapid
promotion of people to management positions before they were either
trained or seasoned has directly contributed to our recent problems.

Two things happened: new managers were trained by existing managers,
and training was largely created and delivered by internal resources.
A paradigm was born (another buzzword, but correctly applied don't
you think?)  In other words, "this is the way we have always done it,
and you should, too").  Secondly, by not attending outside professional
courses middle managers did not have access to training by people whose
career was dedicated to developing participants in professional skills.
There has been too much "facilitation" here and not enough "teaching."
Too often, instructors have been people in transition to another job.
They followed the book, but had not enough experience to back it up.
And after the class was over there was no follow up.

Finally, training and education are not high priorities here.  
People go to training only if it doesn't interfere with something
else.  We don't make time for training; we go if we have the time.
This is like running with a bicycle; if we just took the time to
get on....

    Re .12:
    
    > ................................................................ As
    >we say around here about the Pro, "the results speak for themselves."
    >
    >BTW, for the young whippersnappers reading this, the Pro series may
    >have been the biggest flop in Digital history, at least until the
    >VAX-9000.    
    
    The Pro had nothing on the PDP-16.  Remember "Chartware"?
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.                                                      
    

    re: -1
    
    also had nothing on the pdp-8s....

	And about that time, a memo circulated that was meant to 
	tell us that ours wasn't the only company that was tightening
	the belt. The memo described various cost cutting done by
	other companies, including the mention that Intel had instituted
	a 50 hour work week.

	I remember when our group saw the memo, we chuckled and joked
	about "going to work for Intel so we'd only have to work 50 hours
	a week."

	But we didn't, we got our products out. I'd do it again, but 
	this time, only if I the right to buy a couple shares of stock
	in a years time for every extra hour worked, at the price current
	when I worked the extra time. That way, if we don't turn around,
	I don't get anything extra, but if we do, I get to share in the
	success.


				Tom_K

    Re .32:
    
    >also had nothing on the pdp-8s....
    
    Huh?  The PDP-8 line was exceedingly successful.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

I think he meant PDP-8S.  Model number, not plural.  Could barely keep up with
a DECtape (TU-55/56, not "DECtape II", for all the young-uns).

    RE: .34 The 8 line was a success but wasn't there a model "s"?
    Maybe that's what was meant. BTW, for truely great software
    failures, remember TRAX? I understand that a lot of what was 
    learned on that project was forgetten by the same people on the PRO
    project. :-(
    
    		Alfred

.34>    Re .32:
.34>    
.34>    >also had nothing on the pdp-8s....
.34>    
.34>    Huh?  The PDP-8 line was exceedingly successful.

Double meaning... I think .32 refers to the "PDP-8S" model of the PDP-8
family. (S=Serial,Slow,Snail, etc)

Honorable flop mention: Operating system 'Trax'

.20>Suppose you were asked to work longer hours, spend weeks away from your
.20>family, take a pay cut, a benefits cut, to help Digital's bottom line,
.20>what would your reaction be?

"No"

.20>Supposed you were urged "Maybe if we stop being selfish and work
.20>longer, harder, and smarter, then we'll reverse the trend.  Hey! It's a
.20>crazy idea, but it just may work..."
.20>
.20>What would your reaction be?

I would challenge the assertion that people are being selfish. From my
perspective, many are already working longer/harder/smarter. Can you say
burnout?

Much to the dismay of Digital, my priorities in life put Digital in 3rd
place.

Lee

Anyone remember what happened to the horse "Boxer" in Orwell's 'Animal
Farm'?  (memory parity error). Wasn't his response to nearly every
situation was "I shall work harder!"?

Lee

    re .last_few:

    There was indeed a serial-architecture PDP-8 computer; it was the
    PDP-8/S model.  The joke was that the "/S" stood for "slow." 

    Oddly, it wasn't that much of a liability in its day; it was the first
    computer to be priced at $10,000.  This was considered quite low then.
    An '8/S" was being shown at a tradeshow, when someone trundled up a
    shopping cart, handed the booth captain a cashier's check for $10,000;
    then plopped the CPU in the cart and wheeled it out of the show.

    The machine was a dog to troubleshoot, but it helped spur our OEM
    business of the time.

    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I was thinking about the perpetual projects that Ken Olsen spoke of and
    realized that we have these perpetual meta-projects going on within 
    management. How many of you have seen these meta-projects in the form
    of reorganizations, new strategies, shuffling of resources, etc? Every year
    or sooner some manager decides to reset the clock and begin anew the
    business of reorgs. These are excuses for work by management which take 
    away any focus any of the rest of us might have had. I'm real weary of it
    and wish Ken or someone would view these as perpetual projects as well and
    respond accordingly.
    
    - Jim Kearns

Drag racing analog-

Wheel spinning, noise and tire smoke impresses the fans but the real
measure of success is to get the car down the track.

    RE: .20 and subsequent - some of us were already asked! :-)
    
	Transcribed from the original hard copy memoranda:

================================================================================

    +---------------------------+ TM
    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
    | d | i | g | i | t | a | l |		INTEROFFICE MEMORANDUM
    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | 
    +---------------------------+

    TO: All Wage Class 4 Employees		DATE: December 19, 1974
	in the United States & Canada		FROM: Ken Olsen
						DEPT:  
						EXT:	    LOC:

    SUBJECT: EXTENDED WORK SCHEDULE

    In these difficult economic times, we need the maximum effort of all 
    employees at Digital. This extra effort is essential in order to meet our 
    competition in the marketplace by increasing sales and shipments.

    For this reason, we have decided to extend the working day for Wage Class 
    4 employees by one hour, without additional pay, Monday through Thursday, 
    starting Monday, January 6th. This extended working day will be effective 
    for the month of January and will apply at all Digital facilities 
    throughout the United States and Canada. We will be in touch with you 
    toward the end of January to let you know whether it will be continued 
    further.

    We can all be proud of the way Digital employees have responded in the 
    past to challenges in difficult times. Digital has decided to take a 
    positive, creative approach rather than the drastic measures that other 
    companies have followed.

    We realize that many of you are already working additional hours and we 
    simply want to encourage this commitment company-wide. Through extra 
    effort now, we believe we can create an even stronger company, capable of 
    growing rapidly again when the business climate improves.

================================================================================

    +---------------------------+ TM
    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
    | d | i | g | i | t | a | l |		INTEROFFICE MEMORANDUM
    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   | 
    +---------------------------+

    TO: All Wage Class 4 Employees		DATE: January 22, 1975
	in the United States and Canada		FROM: Ken Olsen
						DEPT: Administration
						EXT: 2300    LOC: Mill

    SUBJECT: CONTINUATION OF EXTENDED WORK SCHEDULE
    	     --------------------------------------

    We have decided to continue our extended work schedule for Wage Class 4 
    employees through Thursday, February 20th.

    We are very pleased with the results of the extended work schedule 
    because we believe it has helped increase productivity as well as create 
    a greater awareness of Digital's need for maximum effort from every 
    employee. We are especially happy about the positive way in which you 
    have responded.

    Although we will be stopping the official extended work schedule at that 
    time, we realize that many of you will continue to work additional hours 
    for Digital. To these employees, we are particularly grateful.


    KHO/d

================================================================================

    These gems I keep along with other high points of management 
    communication during my career at Digital, such as the form to be filled 
    in should you receive a telephoned bomb threat.

...I predict someone will cite the rule about not posting memos without
authors' permission and get the previous posting hidden.

;^(

Thanks for the historical perspective.

Lee

	If I remember correctly there was more than 1 PDP-8 with a "S" on the
end.

	One was the PDP-8-S (8 dash S)and the other was a  PDP-8/S (8 slash S)


	One was had DMA with a parallel interface the other was a serial 
inteface with no DMA.  I got burned on this once upon a time.


								Mel

    re: .43
    
    there was also a wage freeze about the same time frame as I recall...
    
    re: yes I meant the pdp-8/s...it was a serial machine and was
    s...l...o...w...and a dog...
    
    trax, I remember that how about the tu79's....anyone remember them??
    
    and the pdp-9/l's????

    
      We still repair the TU79's here...We still do alot of repair on the
    oldies   I used to repair the old pdp-8's.  We seem to be hanging on
    because of alot of the old dogs.
    
    John

    Re .46:
    
    >and the pdp-9/l's????
    
    ... which were a brilliant red color, and were replaced by PDP-15
    analogs, which were a light blue.  Who can forget 'em?
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    	I think I have you beat. Remember either the VAXstation 100 or the
    VAXstation 8000 (Lynx)? Take your pick.
    	By the way, when I saw that Jack Smith memo which was mentioned a
    few replies back, I DID send him a note. First and only time I was
    upset enough to do that...but just one in a long line of CLMs
    (career-limiting moves).

    The PDP-8/S was the first machine I programmed hands-on.  Up until
    a few years ago I could probably even remember the RIM loader, which
    had an almost poetry about it.
    
    Anyway, the time for a "TAD" instruction (Twos-complement add) was
    33 microseconds, if you did not use indirect addressing.  A whopping
    0.03 MIPS.  (Not really fair, as TAD was one of the slowest instructions
    the machine had.  A one-bit math unit and a 13-bit shift register.)
    Memory cycle time was 8 microseconds.
    
    I remember when we interfaced a drum to it we had to make the interface
    read every 64th word around the drum, as the tightest possible loop
    could not keep up with the rotational speed.

  

	In re .39:

	Boxer dies, having worked himself to death, and the windmill
	rebuild never finishes.

	A cautionary tale.

	MM

    He doesn't just die, he gets sold to the Knackers by the pigs...
    
    Laurie.

    Re .50:  TAd was 33 microseconds. TAD was one of the slowest ...
    
    From my PDP8/S instruction card dated 7/67:
    
    TAD was 36 microseconds
    ISZ was 54 microseconds

    
    Is it ok if I start another topic called "Idiots debating PDP trivia"?
    
    
    -Ed
    

    re:.55
    
    that reminds me of the people who force through some law when
    they don't like what's on tv/radio/etc.
    
    all they really need to do is change the station if they don't like
    it...
    
    but some must always try and force their views on others...
    
    

    
    > -< no, but your free to change to another note...!! >-
    
    That's what I was suggesting.
    
    -Ed
    

    O.K., forget this PDP-8 rathole....I want to go back to TRAX!
    
    I'm very grateful for TRAX.  Without it, our office would have never
    had a VAX.  We received a TRAX demo system, John Wood (I believe) came
    to set up the demo.  I don't recall if it ever worked (TRAX).  As soon
    as John left....the system was ours!
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob

The trivia is nice, but doesn't belong in here.  Please keep the discussion
limited to idiots or whatever the topic is.

Thanks,

Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL