Conference 7.286::digital

    
    	Quite a generous package, I'd say. One question..what did you
    	mean, 60% to 80% of your base pay if you relocate to one of the
    	remote sites? Are those people being asked to take a pay cut?

    
        Basically, yes.
    
        In theory, there's some way to earn a "commission" of up to
    (read maximum) 100% of your original salary. However, since many
    of the reclassified people weren't sales but techies, it,I just wasn't
    to obvious how this would happen.
    

    I don't know about that ... based on .0, I'd bring home 22 weeks. 
    Based on the last TFSO package that floated through GSO, I'd bank 33
    weeks ...
    
    Who knows, the next "package" may consist of a stack of boxes for you
    to pack your office in ... oh yeah, and a t-shirt of some kind.
    
    
    Jerry

    
    
    	re .4
    
                               
    	You must be a relative newcomer..based on .0's formula, I'd
    	take home 72 weeks pay plus an extra $30K+...that is more
    	generous than the current package being offered in the states,
    	if my math is correct...
    

    BUT, it does discriminate against those that are under 40 years of age. 
    I have been with DEC for 15 years and am only 34.  Why should those
    under 40 that have worked the same number of years walk away with less?

    Re .6: The reason for the extra money for people over 40 is simply that
    it is much more difficult to get a new job when you're over 40 (all
    other aspects being the same).
    One detail: on June 30th 1992, about 3/5 (I think) of the layoffs are
    taking place, the rest will take place (with the same benefits) at some
    time between now and June 30th 1993, which is the end of the social
    plan that DEC France negotiated with the French labor authorities.
    Until that date it will be extremely difficult for DEC France to layoff
    more people, as it would mean having a new layoff plan agreed on by the
    French labor authorities (which are not very keen on the idea). After
    that date, if the situation still requires it, other layoffs would be
    easier to be accepted, but it is also very doubtfull that these new
    layoffs would go with a package as substantial as the present one.
    			Denis.

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    Age Discrimination?  Most  European countries have Social Plans between
    either  the  company and the Workers Councils, and these decide on what
    basis people can be terminated.  They really don't want people over 40,
    or  family  breadwinners  being  terminated.  The young, junior and the
    mobile are usually the first out.  Performance is usually NOT an issue,
    it's the social status you have.

    The Pay cut.  The conspiracy theories (I think there's quite some truth
    to  it) say that DEC is trying to replace all its technical people with
    lower  cost  people.   It's  also  trying  to  "outsource"  most of its
    technical expertise, and get the same job done with cheaper people.

    I suspect that the "DEC Europe" paying the bills in .0 is DEE.  This is
    based  on  the  Philips,  Kienzle  mobs that we picked up over the past
    years.   They  are  building  a  service  capability  (that  will rival
    Digitals)  into  these organizations using lower cost labour.  Thus the
    "opportunity" to go work "in the remoter regions" and take the pay cut.

    If you  take  this  to ridiculous extremes (and we usually do), Digital
    will  consist  of  Marketing,  Product  Management, Program Management,
    Project Management, A few Corporate Account Salemen, Loads of directors
    (Industry  and geography), Management, SI consultants and the real work
    will be contracted out to body shops like they are making out of DEE.

    Digital will  do  "added  value"  engineering,  SI Consulting, Industry
    marketing,  corporate  selling and little else.  They will sign the big
    contracts,  and  all  the  traditional  business, like making software,
    computers,  TSC's,  Customer Support, Presales, selling, fixing things,
    writing things, making things, will be done elsewhere.

    Digital is  not  the  place  to  further  a technical career until this
    current attitude changes. It's certainly a different company.

    re .8:
    
    �Performance is usually NOT an issue,
    �it's the social status you have.
    
    German law explicitely forbids using performance as a criterion for
    this kind of layoffs, and mandates deciding based on the social status.
    There's some freedom for the employer, though, to decide what social
    aspects are weighted most (family status, age, years of service etc.).
    
    �will  consist  of  Marketing,  Product  Management, Program Management,
    �Project Management, A few Corporate Account Salemen, Loads of directors
    �(Industry  and geography), Management, SI consultants and the real work
    
    Dennis, you forgot portfolio management!!  :-)
    

Ahhh Gi'day...�

	  Portfolio management? I'm scared to ask what it even is.

    
      RE: All replies
    
      Please remember that Digital Equipment Corporation and Digital 
    Equipment (fill in your favorite European country) are completely
    different from one another. We do not belong to the "C" in DEC: we
    are not part of the Corporation. The strategies, regulations, and
    official policies in Digital Equipment France (DEF) are sometimes
    shockingly different from DEC. They are sometimes shockingly different
    from the rules of Digital Equipment Europe (DEE) a completely separate
    company who happens to have people who sit right next to me. We are 
    _barely_ part of Digital. We are more like a souped-up Radio Shack. 
    (Denis, feel free to contradict me...I respect your opinion more than my 
    own sometimes.)
    
    Point by point:
    
    RE: .3 (the difference in U.S. packages vs French packages.)
    
    Though many French people won't believe this, I did my research into
    the official "layoff package" and it only guarantees the 3-month
    "warning period" plus something like 12% of one year's salary. What
    really has the power in Europe are the negotiating power of each
    company's "union". Unlike, for example, the UAW, who has members in
    Ford, Chrysler, etc. plants, french laws require each company to have
    its own labor-representing union that negotiates things like salary changes
    layoffs, etc. The union (the CE) is made up of regular DEF employees 
    voted in by colleagues. In France they have strong influencing powers 
    but no veto power. Our head boss, Michel Ferreboeuf, must present all
    plans before them. I believe it was the union (CE) who "won" the
    generous package for us.
    
    I understand Germany's "unions", are much much stronger and can
    completely veto a head honcho's plans.
    
    RE: .6 ( Why discriminate against those under 40?)
    
    As Denis said, after 40 (and this is not true in the U.S. nearly as
    much) it is much more difficult to get a job. I was STUNNED the first
    time I looked in Le Monde's help technical help wanted section as 
    say many "Wanted: Young Software Engineer. Must be between the age
    of 25-30." I even think I recall a Digital in Annecy advertising like
    that. However, I simultaneously had trouble defending Eurodisney
    against outraged French people furious about rigid hiring requirements 
    (no tatoos, no dyed hair, no facial hair) AND the special
    deal Eurodisney cut with the French labor force to pay all its 
    employees (also known as "actors", which I think is important here)
    _less_ than legal minimum wage. 
    
     RE: .8 (DEC is trying to replace all its technical people with
    lower cost people from the outside.)
    
    DEF makes no secret of this. They announced the replacement of all the 
    terminal repairers, all the small-systems hardware support guys with outside
    contractors. Why? Because DEx people cost more per person than
    contractors. The thing that puzzles me is that all the contractors I
    work with receive _much_ higher salaries than I do. I find this to
    mean that there's too much overhead per employee at DEC. 
    
    BTW, we bought Philips out, moved a bunch of their folks here and just
    canned them.
    
    RE: .9 (German law explicitly forbids using performance as a criterion
    for layoffs)
    
    This makes me want to shout "That's horrible", except that I can't
    resolve that fact with the fact that the Germans still manage to
    be the most productive, highest-quality folks in Europe.
    
    Just how do they do that (plus they have more vacation than everyone
    else...incredible!)

    I re_read the bsase note ... I transposed 1 MONTH's salary for every
    year with 1 WEEK's salary ... I attacked the calculator again, and YES,
    this is a VERY good package ... 8^)
    
    Jerry

    RE: .8
    
    I don't think you're too far off the mark here. In the June 92
    Recruitment Monitor (comes free with Computing, a UK magazine), there
    is much discussion on this very subject. In fact, DECexecutive,
    currently being piloted in the UK, is an initiative by DEC to address
    this very need in other comapnies in the UK. Looking around me, I see
    more contractors being used than ever before (proportionately at
    least), right across Europe. Some contractors have been with DEC a long
    time, and have worked in several countries, on several sites. There
    seems to be more evidence of a decision to use contrators on more than
    a long-term basis. Not that I'm complaining of course, I'm one of them.
    
    Laurie.

    Re .11: Cheryl, you're in a much better place than I am to know the
    differences between DEC and DEF, you've been on both sides, while I've
    only been working for DEF.
    I'll just pick two nits about your reply: first I think that DEE stands
    for Digital Equipment Entreprise, not Digital Equipment Europe, and
    second, the CE (comit� d'entreprise) is a body elected by the workers
    which exists in any French company with over 49 employees. Its
    resources (I think) amount to 1% of the salaries paid to the employees
    (this 1% is paid by the company, not by the workers, and is usually
    used to finance things such as cheaper vacation places for the
    employees, employees sport associations, cheaper loans for the less
    paid, etc..., this varies from one CE to the next). Among other things,
    the CE MUST be consulted in case of layoff, etc..., but the CE is NOT a
    "union". At election time, the legally recognised trade unions have the
    right to present their lists of candidates, and only if they don't
    present any, then the independent list can be presented. As there is no
    trade union in DEF, only independent lists are presented, and members
    of the DEF CE are not members of any French trade unions, but, as far
    as I've heard, it's them we have to thank for the size of the package
    the people laid off will get. It's also unlikely that if other layoffs
    take place next year, the package will be as large.
    			Denis.

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    Yeah, DEE  is  not  Digital Equipment Europe, it's something to do with
    "enterprise". Souped up Radio Shack just about sums it up :-)

    I found this note file very interesting.  I would like to know
    what kind of package you have heard that the U.S. DEC employees
    are going to get hit with starting June 29th?  This will be our
    third layoff in a year.  We had a pretty good package offered
    for the SERP program, early retirement but no one seems to know
    what will be offered this next go around.
    
    Can anyone help?
    

	Typically what happens in this company is that lots of ideas are
	discussed, for example what the package will be, before anything is
	decided. Often some of the ideas "get out" before a some option is
	picked. Sometimes the press gets a hold of it; sometimes DECcies do.
	However, just because an idea gets out doesn't mean it's been approved.

	Also typically, those whose job it is to announce these things hear
	a bunch of these ideas. News releases, LIVEWIRE and MGMT MEMO articles,
	etc are prepared for (sometimes) several of the options. None of this
	means they'll happen. Once an option is picked the news usually goes
	pretty fast. You can count on it showing up in LIVEWIRE for example.

	But until the option gets final approval KO himself can't tell you
	what it's going to be. Asking in Notes seems like one of the silliest
	things to do. If there was an option that was actually going to happen
	(ie. had final approval) it would probably be posted already and you'd
	get 2-4 copies of it by mail. (And two weeks later your boss would send
	it. :-) )

				Alfred

    re: "See 1904.110"
    
    But make sure you read another reply or two to find out that the
    memo is from 1991 or so.
    
    -- Russ

    Since we're talking Europe here, Digital Sweden laid off ~150 of a
    total of ~950, that would be like 16%, on June 1.
    
    Severance pay is four months salary plus one extra month for every
    year you've been employed in DEC. I think if you want to, you can work
    the four month period of notice, but if you want you can also leave
    earlier. But your manager can demand that you work one month to get the
    full severance pay.
    
    Hans

    re .11:
    
    �I understand Germany's "unions", are much much stronger and can
    �completely veto a head honcho's plans.
    
    If you mean the Betriebsrat (roughly comparable with CE) by "unions",
    yes, they have some power - but if they can't agree upon something with
    the management of the company, the matter eventually goes to a court
    (and that happens all the time). While the courts are not
    employee-hostile, the betriebsrat can't obviously push everything
    through in the court.
    
    there's also a clear distinction between the Betriebsrat and the union
    - though if they both exist in a company (like DEC in Germany) they
    usually cooperate closely (and I think most of the BR members here are
    also union members). In the end, a union has much more power than the
    BR - the BR can't initiate a strike, but the union can.
    

    
    Finland has 'voluntarily' cut its work force of ~450 by 25-40 persons,
    exact number not known since all have not been accepted/decided yet.
    The offer was public to all DEC Finland employess, with employers 
    option to veto. Final offer date was June 11.
    
    Severance pay was as follows:
    
     0 -  9 years with Digital		 9 months salary
     9 - 12 years with Digital		10 months salary
    12 - 15 years with Digital		11 months salary
    over 15 years with Digital		12 months salary
    
    * This information is marked INTERNAL USE ONLY in Finland VTX and *
    * should be treated accordingly                                   *
    
    		- tomi

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    This is  my  last  day  in  a  Digital  office.   This will also be the
    finishing  day  of 508 other German employees (best number I could come
    up with).

    Good bye and good luck Digital and Digits

    Enjoyed your notes. 
    
    Good bye & we wish you well.
    
    dave

    To Mr Hagarty and 508 other German employees :-
    
    Before you leave, send me a mail with your address/home phone if you
    are looking for a business in your life after_Digital.
    
    Best wishes for the future.
    
    Ian Loughlin
    
    

	... that familiar phase "Ahhh Gi'day...�" takes on a less happy meaning.

	Rest assured, though, you did leave your "mark" scattered over the
DEC landscape!  :>)

    All the best Dan....
    
    
    John

    To all our ex European co-workers.  Good luck, your the lucky ones!!  No
    word over here in the old USA yet!