Conference 7.286::digital

    Dave,
    
    Hmpf. If I were you, I'd take a moment to speak with an attorney who
    specializes in U.S. labor law.
    
    Sh***y Deal.
    Good luck.

>>>    The funny thing is that it's worked out so that my last day will leave
>>>    me three days short of five years and any vesting. 

Are you three days short because you don't hit the exact day, or the month? For
example, assume you start work July 16, 1987. In some companies, you will be
considered to have worked five years (and be vested) if you leave on July 1,
1992. (You don't have to work all the way to July 16.) I don't know what
Digital's rule is, but it's worth checking out.

Also, I'm just curious: Does Digital consider Puerto Rico international
assignment, even though Puerto Rico is a commonwealth owned by the United
States?

Vicki Meagher

    
    
    Re: vesting....a stock broker told me that often people are considered
    vesting at the end of the fourth year, tenth month.  He said it had 
    something to do with the legal requirements of pension funding.
    
    I don't know....but you should check it out.  My God, how close can 
    you come to vesting without being vested.  Is Personnel doing anything
    to assist you?  Have you checked with your Personnel Consultant or 
    Group Personnel Representative?
    
    Good luck...and I sorry for how you were treated.
    
    

    I don't know the particulars of your situation, but I just pulled out
    my copy of the Short-Term International Relo policy (Section 7.00, not
    on VTX for some reason) and the section under "Home Country Career
    Manager Responsibilities" says, among other things
    
    "Assure a Repatriation Plan is completed and maintained in teh Home
    Country organization to provide job opportunities for teh scheduled
    return of the employee."    and
    "Assume managerial, headcount and fiscal responsibility for the assignee, 
    if the assignee returns to the Home COuntry without a new job."
    
    which would seem to indicate an obligation, however, on the last page
    
    "Employees on Short-Term Internaltional Assignment may be dismissed by
    the Home Country organization according to its applicable laws and
    regulations and in accordance with its Personnel policies. Termination
    rights and benefits of the Home Country will apply."    and
    "In any situation involving Company termination during a Short-Term
    International Assignment, the active involvement of the Law Department
    is required."
    
    Good luck,
    	Dave

>Also, I'm just curious: Does Digital consider Puerto Rico international
>assignment, even though Puerto Rico is a commonwealth owned by the United
>States?

Puerto Rico is part of GIA, not the US Area, in DEC's geography.

--Simon

    And, The U.S. doesn't "OWN" it.
    
    q
    
    
    

    In the UK, the redundancy process has a set of principles which I
    happen to have in front of me. The sixth one states:
    
    "Those employees returing from company requested international
    assignments will be give job priority"
    
    Of course, this assumes there are some jobs to fill..........
    
    JK

   This is a result of a new policy that came down the road about a
   month ago.  I was fortunate enough to find out about it before taking
   an assignment in KY.  This is what happened.
   
   We landed a contract with the Commonwealth of Kentucky.  The
   positions were posted as temporary relocations.  I applied. 
   Personnel from Chicago called to do a phone interview.  Very little
   was dicussed about the actual job.  I never let it get that far.  The
   woman from personnel was very professional and I was impressed
   because her first priority in the interview was to make sure I
   understood the "gotcha".
   
   That very morning her office received a memo stating Digital's new
   position on temporary assignments.  It used to be that Digital did
   everything possible to make sure you had some sort of job when you
   got back to your old site.  The new position boils down to if there
   is no IMMEDIATE work for you to do at your old site, then you're
   terminated.  No mention of a package or anything.
   
   They were looking for about 8 very senior people to fill these
   positions.  They are not looking at outside hires.  I asked how she
   expected anyone to take these jobs knowing there is a very good
   chance this would be the last job they had within Digital.  She said
   they hadn't figured that one out yet.  She sounded very depressed at
   the end of the conversation.

>>>    And, The U.S. doesn't "OWN" it.

Why do you say that? Puerto Rico is a "self-governing commonwealth of the
United States."

Here is a short excerpt from the P&P (orangebook) that deals with
'temporary' assignments.

In view of .8's posting it appears that a substantial change 
has occured just since 27-Apr-92... the last update of this section.

Lee




                      PERSONNEL                       Section 5.06
                                                      Page  1 of 18
               POLICIES AND PROCEDURES                Effective 27-APR-92

                   Relocation of Temporary Assignees - U.S.


SCOPE - U.S.

  From time to time the Company offers employees a Temporary
  Assignment which requires relocation from a present home to a new
  work location and back to the employee's original home location.
  The Company believes that these moves should make good business
  sense and provide minimal disruption to the employee and the
  employee's family.  These moves must meet the criteria established
  in the Corporate Employee Relocation Philosophy (5.00).  It is the
  intent of this policy to provide an effective alternative to
  employees who wish to retain their primary residence in these
  specific relocation circumstances.

[text deleted]

  3.  Timing of Assignment

  The employee must be offered an assignment to a designated location
  for a specific length of time which will be at least one year and
  normally not exceeding three years.

| 4. Required Written Agreement For All Temporary Domestic
|    Assignments
|
| The employee's home location manager must provide a written
| statement containing the Company's objectives for the employee's
| move, identifying the assignment location, the expected duration of
| the assignment and the expectations surrounding the employee's
| return to the home organization.  This written memorandum should be
| submitted to U.S. Relocation along with the Relocation
| Authorization for approval.
|
| As part of the return to the home organization process, the
| employee, the home organization manager and the temporary
| assignment manager should agree to a return strategy.  That
| strategy should be documented in a written memorandum that
| addresses periodic discussions and meetings with the home
| organization manager, performance discussions and a career
| discussion approximately 6 months before the employee is expected
| to return to the home organization.
|
| At the end of the assignment, the employee will be given first
| priority for any position for which they are qualified in the home
| organization.  If no position is available, the employee should be
| given a minimum of 180 calendar days at full pay to find another
| position.  If no position is available, the employee would be
| subject to termination as a company separation and would be
| eligible to receive 8 weeks pay in lieu of notice.
|

[rest of 5.06 text deleted]

	Just because its part of the commonwealth, doesn't mean you own it.

	Look at Canada, Australia..............

    As far as the vesting is concerned in my base note.  That was based on
    the assumption that the separation package available before SERP would
    be available after SERP.  I was told if this were true the following
    would happen.  My last day with DEC would be June 26th 1992, I would be
    paid as a regular employee for the next nine weeks.  During the nine
    weeks I would be paid my accrued vacation time.  At the end of the nine
    weeks I would get the lump sum settlement for my time with the company,
    retirement, etc. This would occur August 28th.  I got a benefit note
    earlier this year stating that I would be vested September 1, 1992.
    
    I guess I'll have to send back the pen and pencil set and that little
    certificate for "Five Years of Continuous and Loyal Service."
    
    Dave Russell

    .10
    
    Thank you for putting the relo. policy in this note....it doesn't
    jive with what a previous note said.  It clearly states if
    a job is not available for you, then you have 180 days.
    
    I would like to bring up a point that no one has commented 
    on yet:  everyone has know since April/May timeframe that 
    the Puerto Rico plant was going to close...  so this person
    has known to look for a job since then.  Everyone in the plant
    has know that.
    
    So how many people in the plant are in your situation?  If there
    are alot then SOMEONE should be addressing this issue.  If it's
    an individual case then maybe it's an individual issue...
    
    

    We know that SGO is being closed.  The problem is that our home country
    cost center is with Greenville, GSO.  I have been looking throughout
    DEC for other opportunities but this transition timing is such that
    after June 26th I will be ineligible for any position within DEC
    because of being the the transition process.
    
    Dave Russell

       <<< Note 1935.9 by CASDOC::MEAGHER "George Heavy Waffler Bush" >>>
                              -< Just semantics? >-

>>>    And, The U.S. doesn't "OWN" it.

>>Why do you say that? Puerto Rico is a "self-governing commonwealth of the
>>United States."
    
    
    In my mind its still semantics.  The word OWN seems to have a negative
    connotation.  A better phrase might be "is a part of".
    
    Does the United States "own" Vermont?
    
    Larry
    

    "be a part of" is also legally incorrect.  Constitutionally, Puerto
    Rico is "an unincorporated territory" which means it is directly
    subject to Congress.  Congress created the Commonwealth, Congress can
    abolish it (according to some interpretations).
    
    yours for understandable legal mumbo-jumbo,
    
    Dick

  Puerto Rico and Vermont are within the Jurisdiction of the United States.
Neither is the property of the United States.

  The Federal Post Office in your home town (if you live in the U.S.) or the
Air Force Base near by is the property of the United States. 

  George

    Jeez, enough about Puerto Rico!  Yes it was ceded to the U.S. Dec. 10,
    1898 after the Spanish American War.  We use U.S. Dollars but call them
    pesos.  Puertorica�os are U.S. citizens, but have no voting
    representation in the U.S. Congress; and consequently, do not pay
    federal income taxes.  Local taxes are as high as federal taxes in the
    States.  There are three main political parties here, just like the
    States now.  And if you want to know where we are, tonight when you're
    watching the national weather report on CNN, we are about three inches
    past the lower right hand corner of your TV screen.  Right about where
    the weatherman's rearend is.
    
    Can we get back to the original topic now?  Please?
    
    Dave
    

    
    
    .18....thank you, thank you.  I think it's a poor reflection on the
    individuals who would bicker back and forth about the political status
    of Puerto Rico when the main point of the note is a man has just lost
    his job and may very well have a family to support and a near snowball's 
    chance in hell of finding another job in his home area which is still 
    suffering the deepest, broadest, longest recession in its history.
    Of course, all IMHO.  He's received some helpful information so far
    and that IS the point of the note.  
    
    BTW....thanks to everyone who has contributed suggestions and
    information, many more of us might find ourselves in a position
    of having to use it.
    

    Did you not sign a TIA contract when you started? What does it say?
    
    The part about getting 'legal' involved in in any termination of
    someone on TIA has potential. If nothing else it may delay things
    enough for you to be fully vested.
    
    gary

    Hi Dave,
    
        All I can say to ya is good luck.  I'm sure you've seen the other
    note in this conference about what's going on here at GSO.  May not be
    much to come back to, what with certain people from this facility
    forwarding messages from this conference to various managers. 
    Ethics goes right out the door when things get ugly, don't they?
        Anyway, if someone doesn't relieve the pressure I've seen build
    over this past week, things are gonna get worse.  Once again, Good Luck
    to ya mate!
    
                                                           Scott
                                                        

    re: .20
    
    Yes I did sign a letter of short-term international assignment.  This
    was also signed by all sorts of managers both here in Puerto Rico and
    the home country manager.  The fact that DEC is discontinuing
    manufacturing in the Caribbean and the sale/nosale of the GSO facility
    seem combine to throw any company obligations toward employees out the
    window.  Since I've been down here there have been at least five cost
    center managers for the GSO laboratory organization, which technically
    I belong to.  In talking with personnel people, they really don't seem
    to care that the obligations, some of which have been referenced in
    this note, were ignored by GSO.
    
    What rubs salt in the wound, is that the main reason I came down here
    was that I doubted that the Greenville organization understood the
    business well enough to effectively manage the facility.  I saw in the
    SGO management a determination to succeed and considerably less
    politics.  Every one pulled together, and although we are far from
    where we could be, we did succeed.  The rumor has it that the reason
    for closing the circuit board facility was due to the fact that DEC had
    to promise the people negotiating for Greenville facility enough
    production that there was not enough left for San Germ�n to be viable. 
    From what I can tell, Greenville doesn't sound like they have been
    highly successful with all their reorganizations, confusion, doubt,
    etc.  We were successful here in Puerto Rico, but it is this plant that
    gets closed to save the sale of the Greenville facility.  On top of
    this is my situation, in that I helped San Germ�n with their success
    but GSO/DEC doesn't really care.  They need to chop so many heads and
    they will do anything to hit the numbers.
    
    Dave

    I forgot to mention in .22 that unemployment around the San Germ�n area
    will probably be close to 20% when we shut down here.  So you can see
    that companies aren't in a hiring frenzy here.  FWIW
    
    DAR

Get a lawyer.  Now.  In Greenville.  

If nothing else, you _will_ get Personnel's attention.  

Maybe even management's attention.  :^)

Normally adding a lawyer to the equation just makes things more difficult.
In this case, I don't think you have a lot to lose.  In fact, I don't think
you have anything to lose.

K.

    ..........And maybe a lot to gain!
    
    I second the suggestion to get a lawyer.  Now.

    
    Normally I do not contribute to threads of this nature, because
    I never know the other side of the story.  However, I am impelled to 
    enter this reply because I am so utterly appalled.  First, let me 
    say that whatever the final outcome, my fervent hope is that, 
    somehow, things works out for the gentleman being (God I hate this 
    mealy-mouthed euphemism) "transitioned".
    
    Further, I despair for a company that allows this to happen to
    an employee.  Beyond the obvious ethical questions, there are 
    horrendous business implications for the company.  What happens
    when we need a technical guru to solve a critical customer problem 
    in Europe or Asia that takes four months?
    
    Assuming that all the facts are in evidence, I am sickened.
    
    Glenn

    In response to .13 about whether this situation affects only me, I know
    of one other person who is in exactly the same situation.  I do believe
    that there are some others on short term international relocation;
    however, I have not heard from them nor of their situation.
    
    I do thank all you for your suggestions and comments.
    
    Dave

    I am on international temporary relocation to Germany. It appears that 
    the information entered thus far is only for US temporary relocation, 
    not international temporary relocation. The following is what I  
    extracted from VTX today on international relocation. It deals
    with what the home country manager is responsible for.
    
    
    
    
     International Relocation, Temporary                  Effective:
    01-DEC-90
                                                          Section: 5.19
    
                                                            Screen 33 of
    104
      Selection for Assignment Cont'd
    
         o  Initiate communications with the employee at a minimum of six
            months prior to the employee's scheduled return.  These
            communications should include information pertaining to the
            position the employee will be filling upon his/her return as
            determined in the repatriation plan.
    
         o  Assume managerial, headcount and fiscal responsibility for the
            assignee, if the assignee returns to the Home Country without
            a new job.
      

    To reinforce .28
    There are several differant policys, that apply in differant
    situations. The excerpt I posted earlier (.4?) was from the
    
    Short-Term International Assignment (3mo-1yr) [hard copy ONLY]
    
    	There is also a seperate policy for
    
    Temporary International Relo (1yr-3yr) [in VTX]
    
    In the US, for domestic moves there are seperate policies [in VTX].
    
    I believe .0 stated they were on a Short-Term International Assignment.
    Neither the Temporary Intl. Relo nor the US domestic relo policies apply.
    
    (Note: I am not a representative of Personell, etc. I am speaking
    purely as someone who has personally performed extensive study of
    these various policies, for personal reasons.)

    re: .28 and .29
    
    The policy referenced in the agreement document that brought me down
    here was the International relocation policies section. 7.*--Short-term
    international assignment policy, dated 1 Sept. 90.
    
    Auf wiederschreiben.
    
    Dave

    re: .30
    
    My extract in .4 was from that policy. Last time I checked, that
    policy (7.*) was only availble in hard copy (not VTX). I obtained 
    my copy from Pat DuFour in U.S. Personnel about a year ago.
    
    Dave

    Just an update.  Come to find out, it looks like DEC (in the two
    situations here) have actually put the temporary international
    relocatees on the top of their transition list.  The last story I heard
    was that there was no definite "list" at my home site.  I was informed
    by the site terminator (that's what they ought to call the job) Friday
    that they were "sorry" but they didn't have any news on whether there
    would be a "transition" package or not, but they would be in touch. 
    The other thing I find interesting is that my home site almost refuses
    to do anything in writing.  (it's not really that surprising)
    
    Another thing I thought was interesting was that shortly after I
    started this note some one from personel "up North" wrote me and asked
    me for some specifics, which I answered in the mail.  That Individual
    said that they would check into it and couldn't believe the accusations
    I had basically made.  I believe I answered all the questions as to
    performance, etc. that s/he raised (s/he never gave me his/her first
    name)  s/he said that s/he couldn't believe the accusations I was
    making. S/he said that s/he would let me know what the real story was. 
    Well, ne'er a word so far.
    
    I quess the upshot is that the orange book is used when the company is
    making money.  What galls me is that there is this pretense of concern,
    compassion, and adherence to DEC policy (as currently undefined).  DEC
    isn't concerned they are trying to do what seems to them to be the
    easiest. If this is really what DEC is when the going gets tough, then
    the basic dishonesty, thus spawned, will well serve future managers in
    attaining questionable goals by equally questionable means.  O yes you
    can get a lawyer and do the litigation thing, but I wonder how easy it
    would be to keep you job after winning, or get another job after your
    new employeer found out that you took a previous one to the cleaners. 
    It seems like a "lose/no-win" situation.
    
    Dave

    I am in the same boat, and feeling real nervous. I am on international
    assignment, from Australia, to New England. My home country personnel
    organization, fought tooth and nail against me going, as they claimed
    that I wouldn't return. My current host country management is in a real
    rush to move me. At least they can't abandon me here, as my Visa will
    be running out, but I do not relish returning to an environment that I
    haven't been involved with for 3 years, and possibly having to find a job
    outside of DEC on short notice. 
    
    q
    
    

    Well the process continues. The INternational Relo contract says a
    mandatory 3 months notification from host Mgr to process departure. I
    got 5 weeks. So, in less than a month, I will be moving wife, two young
    kids, and household, 12,000 miles, with no concrete indication of job
    at other end, or for that matter, any indication of what city I will
    end up in. Why don't I feel comfortable about this?
    
    q

    Not much change in my situation either Peter.  The only thing we've
    found out was that our cost center is indeed in Greenville and that we
    don't have jobs there.  We don't know if there would be a "package" or
    not, but probably not seeing that my head would go to the new owners
    and they would have the opportunity to lop it off.  DEC GSO doesn't
    look like they will down size before the sale, if there is a sale.  My
    supervisor is a couple of months behind on my performance appraisal,
    and won't answer the phone or drop me a line over the tube.  I'm not
    holding my breath for DEC to do much positive.  I've gotten more
    support from people who have basically nothing to do with my employment
    than I've gotten from my management.  I get the feeling that because of
    the times we're in, that there are no rules.
    
    Let me know what happens in your situation Peter.
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
        And people wonder why I'm so pessimistic about GSO's management. 
    Sure, they're looking out for our best interest.....and the check's in
    the mail.  
        In a meeting we're told that the experienced employees here are a
    big part of making the sale go through, yet we know NOTHING of the terms 
    of the sale and "they" won't tell us anything.  Of course, I'm sure
    Management is looking out for our interests.....yeah right.
                 
    Scott

    Time for s status Update...
    
    So, I arrive back from my international assignment, start work. Start
    to wonder what's happening with salary. My first paycheck comes in, the
    salary is a mere fraction above my salary as reviewed before I left for
    O/S, 4 years ago. According to Personnel this is the appropriate
    adjustment to keep me at the level I was when I left. Now, after some
    research, 4 years ago, I was at $n, which was at the 50% point in the
    range for my level, Now, I am at $y, which is not much more than $n,
    which just happends to be only 36% in the same range. So I have
    effectively been given a 14% pay cut, over 4 years. I am told that this
    can possibly be remedied early next year, but at best, I can be brought
    back up the the 50% mark (where I was 4 years ago), or possibly even
    the 60% mark. Hardly recognition for the personal development
    achieved overseas.
    
    Not a happy camper...
    
    q
    

    Q, do you mean your actual salary went down from what it was 4 years
    ago?
    sorry, too much math in your article to follow it all, but if your
    salary did go down, you should really talk to some one about it.
    a salary can not go up at least , but it should not go down.
    
    I hope you get a raise soon and become happy camper again.
    
    /nasser

    What country did you transfer back from?
    I thought that your home country manager was supposed to let
    you know what your home country salary was all along 
    during your intl. relo..
    The only thing I thought that could happen is that if your host country 
    gave you an extra raise above what was normal for your home country
    you wouldn't see this raise upon return to your home country.
    
    Check you past salary reviews and your contract. 
    
    Dick_comming_back_from_Germany_this_summer
    

Sounds a little strange to me.

I spent three years on an international assignment and part of the deal was
that I had US salary reviews every year in addition to my local (international)
review. It was a bit strange and since the review that the home country
manager saw was written by the local manager I didn't always get what I would
like to have gotten but I certainly didn't lose any money.

John

    History shows that international assignments are managed differently on
    a scale from poor to scandalous.  Some of you will remember Dave Russel
    who noted from SGOUTL.  Dave was here on international assignment from
    GSO.  His "home country manager" wouldn't answer phone calls or mail
    messages even before the sale of GSO was announced.  
    
    Caveat emptor!
    
    DIck

Sounds like the new ethics office has somthing to do...

Lee

    re .38 (Nasser) No the Salary has actually raised by a small amount,
    but this is in a country that has some fairly savage inflation during
    the same time. Personnel assign ranges of salaries for each level. For
    the level that I was/am at. I was at the 50% mark in that range.
    Personnel base increase on merit, longevity in position, and other
    factors. If I had stayed in that job, twiddled my thumbs, and done
    nothing, I would now be at the 60% level in the range.  The range,
    however moves up, of it's own accord. So even with a small indexation
    from personnel. I have dropped from being 50% in range, down to 36% in
    range, when I should be at a minimum of 60% in range. The difference is
    in excess of $10K.
    
    I have been told that efforts would be made to promote me asap, but no
    commitments can be made... (Same old story) I have been through this
    once before, when changing between DEC organizations, I got a
    promotion, but ended up with less money. I took it 3 levels of
    management, and two levels of Personnel, and got told sorry...
    
    re .39
    
    I went from Australia to the United States and Back. Yup, that was the
    way that I thought it was supposed to work. I was also told when I went
    to the U.S. that a miscellaneous allowance, that I got then, I would
    also get when I returned. Wrong... Basically I am being treated like I
    have been in limbo for a couple of years. 
    
    re .42
    
    Where are they...
    
    
    q

    The way it worked for me (UK->US->UK) was that at each
    transition, they figured that I was at N% of scale, 
    and placed me at N% on the "other" scale.  Yes, I'd
    been promoted whilst abroad as well.
    
   > 			 I was also told when I went
   > to the U.S. that a miscellaneous allowance, that I got then, I would
   > also get when I returned. Wrong... Basically I am being treated like I
    
    What you're entitled to should be spelled out in your
    Letter of Assignment.  If it's written there, they shouldn't
    be able to argue.  If it's not written there, then (alas) you
    were fooled.  (I got one of those allowances to which you
    refer, on return to the UK).
    

    re .43
    
    Savage inflation?  Nonsense.  One of the very few things Labor did was
    to get inflation right, right down.  I know.  I lived there while you
    were away.

	RE: .37 and .43

	I really don't understand what's going on. I have just started 
	(about a month ago) my international assignment from US to Canada.
	Here is what I understand for my case.

	The letter of assignemt states the salary as the exact US salary as
	when I started the assignment. My salary reviews will continue to 
	be administered from the US. That is, the salary raises will follow
	the US plan. Of course, input to the review will be from my
	managers in Canada. My home career manager in the US will take care
	of raises and performance revues, in addition to helping me find a
	job upon my return if he cannot offer me a position. So, the way I
	understand it (and I hope that's how it will be) is that my salary
	when I return should be what it is today in US$ plus any raises
	I'll get along the way which will be set in US$ too. 

	As to the % on the scale, this is not a good indicator, really. It 
	did happen to me over the past several years that I slip a little
	on the range since the range limits move up at different times than
	the salary raise. The main thing is that your salary goes up in
	absolute dollars. 

	Regarding the miscellaneous relocation allowance, I did get one 
	upon arrival here. Furthermore, the budget done for my relocation
	to and from Canada includes another relocation amount for the
	return back to the US.

	So far, and I have been dealing with this for 8 months, all the 
	people involved in the international assignment have been
	*tremendously* helpful and cooperative, from the personnel/relo 
	people to my managers in the US and here in Canada. I do not expect
	and hope not to have any of the problems you are having. I
	recommend you follow-up on this and wish you good luck in resolving
	it fairly. 

	Robi.

    Now for the next blow. I am told that not all of my Vacation time can
    be transferred. I look like losing 3-4 weeks of valid vacation time,
    because Personnel claim that there is a policy about a maximum
    transferrable amount of vacation. THis is not documented, that I can
    see in the PP&P, it is not in my relo contract, Personnel claim that
    Person X briefed me on it. I have never seen, met, or heard of, Person
    X. I repatriated on very short notice, well under the "Mandatory"
    (Personnels word) notification period. I have already had to eat over
    $3000 of expenses that DEC wont cover, and now they take away my
    vacation...  Where is this damn ethics committee.
    
    q
    

    
    Peter,
    
    It's up to your incomming CC manager to approve of the vacation time
    transfer.
    You relo contract says (from memory) that all earned vacation time
    has to be taken while on relo.
    
    Peter
    
    Also answered in the shadowed conference. How come that I can reply
    in that one?