Conference 7.286::digital

    
    	I'm not familiar with the original 'Loss on Sale' policy, but I
    	do know of one instance where an employee owed about $130,000 on
    	his mortgage. When the company that buys houses from DEC employees
    	(Home Equity?) offered him $120,000, the difference was made up by
    	his manager initiating an 'exception', submitting it to personnel,
    	and the employee ended up being able to zero out the mortgage.

    
    DEC isn't responsible to give you an offset on the loss of your house
    when you relocate. Prices are driven by the housing market and DEC has
    no control over that. DEC didn't tell you to buy that house or any
    house. The loss on this house will also be paid back by the cheaper
    price you will pay on the next house you purchase.
    
    We have people here today being told they are being "Let go" and you
    are worried about losing some money on your house. You do have an
    alternative, and that is to Not take the new job and stay where you
    are.

In my case, knowing that the market was crummy and I would end up with a loss,
I opted to let someone assume my mortgage. I had to sign a release saying that
I would not hold Digital or PHH Homequity, the third party buying company, 
liable if the assumption defaulted. It is possible to get a release of 
liability from the mortgage company if the buyer qualifies, but in that case,
they would probably just go with a new mortgage anyway. My buyer could not
qualify because of past credit problems after being laid off. I accepted the
risk of default, and remain at risk for 5 years (I think, depends on who you
talk to and what state they're in, assumption liability is a messy issue).

I was told by PHH that if their offer was low, I would have to bring the 
balance of the mortgage to closing (or send it in). I don't recall whether it
would go straight to the mortgage company or to PHH, who would then pay off the
total mortgage.

When we were wrapping things up, I asked the PHH rep what the assessments had 
been on my house (since I sold it before completing the process, they never 
told me). The average was $25,000 below my mortgage balance, so 
I felt I made the right decision in accepting the assumption liability, since
I don't have 25 grand sitting around with nothing to do. I might also add that 
I had some incentive to go through with the relocation no matter what, since
I was facing TFSO pretty hard (of the 20+ Digital employees I worked
with, less than 10 are still with the company, and only 4 of them in the same
positions).

In my post-relocation survey comments, I opined that given the current state 
of the national real-estate market, the third party home purchase program has
little value if Digital will not cover losses. This then makes relocation 
potentially much more painful to the employee, further exacerbated by the
possibility of getting laid off.

As far as getting a loan from the mortgage company, I had the same question. I
never pursued it, but I didn't have high expectations. I don't think mortgage
companies have advanced much since the days of Shylock. However, if such a 
thing were possible, it would certainly provide an acceptable way out, if not 
pleasant, at least better than the worst case.

On the whole, I was very satisfied with my relocation. Since I value my sanity,
I don't stay up nights worrying about what would happen if our buyer defaults
on the assumption. Can you say "Chapter 11"? I take a survivalist attitude. I
try to prepare best I can, and deal with it if it happens. If not, well, then,
life *can* be good!

Hope things work out for you.
Steve

re:                     <<< Note 1743.2 by PEACHS::SCHULTZ >>>

Please lighten up, I'm just asking. If DEC has a critical need to fill a
position "at a customer site" (which may be far away from a DEC site) and
they approach "you", don't you think they might want to help compensate
your loss? Especially if a very large customer account may be saved and
your spouse will have to quit his/her job?

Jenna

    
    Re .0 and .4
    
    I didn't mean to come across as a hard nose, but DEC is not likely to
    compensate you, as no manager wants his/her head on the block over such
    an affair. Does it make business sense to compensate you if they
    really need you and your talents...YES
    
    Will they do it...NO, Not very Likely...
    
    As my grandmother tells me, "Life is very seldom fair"
    
    

    
    	re .2
    	   >The loss on this house will also be paid back by the cheaper
           > price you will pay on the next house you purchase.
    
    	Excuse me? Would you mind explaining this?  What if someone is 
    	moving from a small midwestern town to the greater LA area?
    
    	Employees should not be able to profit directly from a relocation
    	(other than raises and promotions) but neither should they be
    	expected to take a bit hit in the pocketbook. 
    
    	

    I find it absolutely incredible that anyone still expects Digital to
    compensate them for a bad investment.  I've lost money on several
    houses in the last thirty years.  I've made money on several too.
    
    I think the name of the game is you take your knocks and go on with
    life.
    
    All those eighties yuppies that thought the housing market could never
    turn down are learning a well-deserved lesson in economics.  Good for
    'em!!                                  

     Having worked at many different companies, I can assure you that DEC's
    relocation policy is one of the very best. None of the other companies
    I worked for did a single thing for your house. 
    
     Also, as of 1.5 years ago, there was this little paragraph at the end
    of the relo policy that says you get 1 month's pay for miscellaneous
    expenses. This , in addition to the paid closing costs, moving van
    costs, plus $3500 personal expenses for the employee, $1000 for spouse,
    and $500 for each kid, make the Dec package the best I've ever seen.
    
     I will admit, though that the last time I looked it over was 1.5 years
    ago and much could have changed. At the time, though, it was the best.
    
    Gregg

    To .8, and others, the financial perks you discuss for moving were
    given as incentives to Career Opportunity Days (COD) people. They were
    not and are not standard for DEC's relocation policy. The Loss on Sale
    was also one of those perks. It's not DEC's fault if you lose money on
    your house - they probably aren't MAKING a person move.
    
    Just my 2 cents worth.
    KB
    

re:      <<< Note 1743.7 by COOKIE::LENNARD "Rush Limbaugh, I Luv Ya Guy" >>>
>>                       -< Stop Whining ferchrisakes!!! >-

>>    I find it absolutely incredible that anyone still expects Digital to
>>    compensate them for a bad investment.  I've lost money on several
>>    houses in the last thirty years.  I've made money on several too.
    
I'm not expecting DEC to compensate us for a bad investment (where do you
guys come up with this stuff?). But if they ask us to drop everything and move
halfway across the country because they need help don't you think it's
reasonable to ask for a little help? It's not like we applied for a job far 
away on a whim, it's more like they came looking...

Jenna

    When you ask to relocate you should be expected to assume the
    loss..it's your choice.
    
    When DEC asks you to pack up and move to accomodate them....DEC should
    assume that they will pick up the losses. 
    
    Let's be reasonable, when a spouse has to give up his/her job for the
    betterment of DEC, DEC should be willing to pick up the tab. THEY need
    you! If they won't, just say ..."No Thanks"......
    
    Ken

Note 1743.9            Any help for loss on sale of home?                9 of 10
CSCOAC::BAINE_K                                       9 lines  27-JAN-1992 13:31
    
    >To .8, and others, the financial perks you discuss for moving were
    >given as incentives to Career Opportunity Days (COD) people.
    
    	I can only speak for my note, but EVERY SINGLE ONE of the perks I
    described was for regular relocation. I know because I used it, and it
    was *NOT* a COD move. Just a simple transfer from one job to another.
    
    > They were not and are not standard for DEC's relocation policy.
    
    	Again, all the perks I discussed was part of the standard relo
    package as of 1990. What has happened since then I dunno.
    

re:      <<< Note 1743.12 by CHRCHL::GERMAIN "Improvise! Adapt! Overcome!" >>>

    
  >>  > They were not and are not standard for DEC's relocation policy.
    
  >>  	Again, all the perks I discussed was part of the standard relo
  >>  package as of 1990. What has happened since then I dunno.
 
Loss on Sale (LOS) was available for *ALL* relocating employees up until
last April when they discontinued it.

Jenna   

    Jenna,
    
    Don't let some of the previous replies get you down. Having
    gone thru relo, I know what you're taking about and what you're
    going thru (although I relo-ed prior to the LOS agreement).
    
    I heard, as I believe -.1 stated, that LOS went away  last April.
    Have you tried checking with the corp relo folks in Maynard? or
    local PSA? They might have some insight on whether this can be
    done on an exception basis or not.
    
    good luck!!
    pat
    

    re .7 and .10
    
    I find your reply "title" offensive in .7 and as referenced in .10 and
    wish the moderators to send you a note to that end.

    re .15
    
    Lighten up. Reply 10 was a reply to a previous comment not the cause of
    the comment title. The only one you have a gripe with would be re: 7.
    
    Regards
    Al Root
    Who just got the package.
    
    

    
    I feel that a job is like a small business. There's risk, there's
    profit, there's loss.
    
    If the loss will be greater than the profit, you decide
    long-term/short-term, then you'll have to decide to stay or go.
    
    Remember, in business, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you
    negotiate. After all, you don't come here everyday because you like to,
    you come here to make money for DEC and in turn money for you.
    
    Rick
    

I'm not looking to get rich off my home, I just don't want it to break me. I
moved from Texas to Mass. The difference in prices gave the ol' ticker a bit of
a flutter. Mass = 2 x Texas. Our finances were set up for Texas prices. Part of 
our decision to relocate was to take the pain of Mass prices (even if they are
at their lowest in 20 years). We hope to be able to buy a house within the
next 2 or 3 years.

As far as relo benefits, check the orange book in VTX. The package is pretty 
nice in my opinion. For people moving from a relatively 
low-cost area to a high-cost area, it's not going to put you back into your
previous lifestyle, but it will keep you from falling flat on your face. They
also pay tax protection (tax adder) so the tax bill should not be affected too
badly by the benefits (we'll see...).

Given the current real estate climate, it's hard to see buying a house at any 
price, anywhere, any time, as anything other than a bad investment. But that's 
the negative view from someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
You may all weep copious tears of pity for me. I generally try to maintain a
more positive attitude.

    Al ... sorry to hear about the package.  Hear the field is getting
    ravaged.  On the issue at hand....guess I'd have less heartburn if
    people would voluntarily hand over the profits when they relocate
    under very favorable circumstances.....that happens too y'know.
    
    The DECie that bought my house in N.H. came from CA and paid cash.
    Like I said, it all averages out.

    re: 19
    
    I didn't mean by my comment that what was said in .7 was wrong by its
    title, which I happen to agree with, only that he attacked two people
    for a comment he disliked of which only one was the cause of the
    comment. Your're right about the field getting raveged. Of the groups
    being hit it's like averaging 10% get hit. You take the good with the
    bad. You don't have much choice. It's on to a new career. You have a
    good one and I'll be around about 3 weeks before I go for my 9 week
    stay at home waiting for the buyout. Some only got 1 week and then have
    to go home for their 9 weeks. For some reason some of the support
    groups got 3 weeks with job search and relocation if we find a job in
    dec. I don't ask why I just do. Keep the faith.
    
    Regards
    Al Root
    

    The LOS was helpful, but often did not cover the complete loss (when I
    moved from NH to Texas in 1990 (Hi Steve). This was just as NH prices
    began their dive. The normal digital plan appears to be about equal to
    the one that IBM offered when I moved with them back in 1983.
    
    Eric

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    I don't  think  many  people  are  being  fair here.  Digital (used to)
    compensate  you  on the FORCED REALIZATION OF AN INVESTMENT, not on the
    fact  it's a bad investment.  These people just want to know what their
    rights are under the Personnel P&P.

    
    Re: .22
    
    I quite agree.  Many of those who moan about what happened to the
    "old DEC", forget that one of the characteristics of the old DEC
    was that people helped each other.  Why, when someone asks a simple
    question, do people feel that they just gotta jump on their soapbox
    and rant and rave about their pet peeves.  Some of the advice here
    has been to take your lumps and go on.  Well, try some of your own
    advice.  Stop beating a dead horse and get a life.
    
    Steve
    

>                     <<< Note 1743.2 by PEACHS::SCHULTZ >>>

>    Prices are driven by the housing market and DEC has
>    no control over that. DEC didn't tell you to buy that house or any
>    house. 

This is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.
When DEC moves 2000 jobs into a town, there is no effect on the housing market?
And when they move a good portion of those jobs away, there's no effect either?
And by offering you a job in a given area, the company doesn't expect you
to have an impact on the housing market (either purchased or rented)?

Which is not to say that DEC owes you your real estate loss.  You may be 
in over your head for overbuying or many other reasons.  But to deny
that a company the size of DEC is not partly responsible is naive.

- tom]

    
    
    	Thought I'd jump in here as I am in the middle of this situation.
    	Downsized at ASO and have to move to Mass if I want to stay with
    	DEC (or I suppose I could dirve down each week for 2 days(about 200
    	miles), pay my own lodging/food etc.  Then there's my wifes job of
    	over 20 years and making over 30K which we will now lose!  Can't
    	imagine her getting a new teaching job in Mass or N.H. in this
    	economy.  How many of us can afford a 30K loss of income?  But then
    	like they say "Halitosis is better than no breath at all!"...
    		DEC has been good to us in this move.  The transfer was way
    	last October and they are allowing us to stay in Maine until the
    	end of the school year in June.  Love the new job so it isn't a
    	simple matter of giving up the DEC job - not at 53 anyway!!  The
    	relo package looks good to us and although we won't get what we
    	feel our home is worth neither will we have to pay what another
    	home is worth!
    		We do love MAine though...I'ts going to be a shock seeing
    	as how I left Mass once before to get away from the traffic and
    	congestion.
    		Wish any others in this situation luck...still house
    	hunting and driving to Mass each week...
    
    				8^)
    	
    

    My apologies to anyone whose feelings I might have hurt by my
    soapboxing.  The gent from Australia's comment about a "forced
    realization of an investment" is a really valid point.  Has caused
    me to reconsider my original position.  Just didn't think of it
    that way.
    
    Anyway, I've relocating five times with DEC.  Lost money twice, and
    made a decent buck three times....once over $100K, so I'm not
    complaining.  As a matter of fact, I think that DEC U.S. relocation
    policy is a bit TOO generous.  That one-months pay thing is a nice
    windfall, but certainly not needed.  Also, I personally think that
    the International Relocation Policy, at least from U.S. to Europe, is
    close to obscene.  Hell, I'd pay my own way for a chance to work in
    Europe for a few years.

�      <<< Note 1743.19 by COOKIE::LENNARD "Rush Limbaugh, I Luv Ya Guy" >>>
�    On the issue at hand....guess I'd have less heartburn if
�    people would voluntarily hand over the profits when they relocate
�    under very favorable circumstances.....that happens too y'know.
  
�Note 1743.26           Any help for loss on sale of home?               26 of 26
�COOKIE::LENNARD "Rush Limbaugh, I Luv Ya Guy"        14 lines  29-JAN-1992 12:14
    
�    Anyway, I've relocating five times with DEC.  Lost money twice, and
�    made a decent buck three times....once over $100K, so I'm not
�    complaining.  

      So, Dick...who are going to make that $100k check out to?  Petty cash?
      (That'd be a real Maalox moment.)

	--Mike

    re .26
    
    On the other hand, why don't you give it out "for Christ's sake" (re
    .7 !) and give it to a church/synagogue/mosque or some other such 
    institution?
    
    	Ron
    	:-)

    ........ohhhhhhhh, nasty, nasty.  Actually, I was gonna do just that,
    but then one day I drove by the Mercedes dealer and this 300 Turbo
    smiled at me......but that's another story.

    Back to the point...
    
    You can file an exception, and your cost center manager can sign it if
    it is within their signature level.
    
    If Digital has said move or leave, and you have to come up with
    significant cash to leave your house, then they basically have said...
    leave!
    
    If Digital has a critical need, they can do several things:
    
    - hire from outside
    - train someone locally
    - eat the loss on the sale of a home
    
    In many cases, it may be wise for Digital to use an Asset they have on
    hand, or have large investments in... namely YOU!
    
    Good luck..
    
    pH
    
    "in the relo process"
    

RE: .26   

>    ....................................Also, I personally think that
>    the International Relocation Policy, at least from U.S. to Europe, is
>    close to obscene.  Hell, I'd pay my own way for a chance to work in
>    Europe for a few years.



The international relocation policy isn't obscene. In fact, it 
is less generous than that of many other international 
companies. 

There seem to be 2 different philosophies. Either a company
wants it's relocatees to live VERY well as compensation for 
relocating abroad (which can be very stressful and has wrecked 
many a marriage and career) or a company attempts to ensure
that the employee maintains a living standard that is similar to
(or at least not less than) the one that the relocatee had back
home. DEC falls into the latter category. 

I have a Norwegian friend who is in Singapore with a Norwegian
company. He is able to bank about 3 K$ per month (yes, per
month!) after expenses due to his relocation package. After three
years in Singapore and 1 year in Rotterdam he is planning to buy
a house in Oslo for cash. You can't do that on a DEC relocation.
I also know a Swede who is a manager for Ericsson in Singapore. 
He too lives a life of extreme luxury. My own brother is in 
Saudi Arabia with ARAMCO earning a really obscene salary.

In addition, the DEC package is so out of date and so inflexible 
that it makes it impossible for modern-day, 2 career couples to 
consider a relocation. I've looked at several moves, but DEC
relocation isn't flexible and won't cover leaving the family at
home while moving abroad for a period of time (in my case 2
years). 


Cheers,

Geoff

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    I think it's obscene as well. Too many free loaders, the wrong people.