Conference 7.286::digital

    The Boston Globe today says either in Andover or Hudson.
    Both of those locations already have such plants, one of
    which is rumored to be closed.....does not compute !
    
    LLoyd

    Advanced semiconductor manufacturing requires process and production
    technology that may not exist, or may not be possible in either
    HLO or APO.  BTW, Andover is currently not fitted up for volume
    production; our facilities were only a pilot line.
    
    Mark.

    What about all of the land that DEC owns over in Lancaster?  Maybe they
    are thinking of that spot?
    
    Linda
    

Toying is a bad word to use, As I recall the HLO semiconductor facility in
Hudson Mass cost several tens if not hundred of Millions of dollars to set up.
Last I heard, they were going flat out making CPU's etc. Downsizing, does not
mean cutting back on business, it means becoming more efficient. If production
of Silicon is becoming a gating factor in our ability to ship systems, then
setting up a chip plant is a clever thing to do. Bear in Mind also, that when
the "Risc Technology Vaxes" come on stream, a seperate production line will
probably be necessary for them. And building High tech plants like these, does
not happen over a weekend...

q

    FWIW,
    
    Digital has already recycled a fab.  The first fab in Hudson was shut
    down a while ago for being obsolete.  The space is being renovated for
    new technology and the fab personnel were moved to a more advanced fab
    area on the HLO site.
    
    The new plant would be for technology beyond what is currently in
    development in Hudson.  Seeing as fabrication technology cycles in
    about two years, and the time frame for planning, building, and
    stocking a new plant would most likely be longer than that, it is
    necessary to plan far ahead.
    
    Lisa

    With the fault lines running thru New England and Silicon Valley, I
    think such a facility should be in Austin, TX or Phoenix, AZ.  It is no
    secret that these areas have very stable ground.  That is why
    companies like TI, Motorola, Intel, VLSI, and SGS have such large 
    operations in both of these cities.
    
    And it just so happens we have a 500,000 sq. ft. building in Phoenix 
    that is empty.  I hope they do the right thing for a change and make a
    sensible decision.
    
    Mike

re .6:

And you've got plenty of sand, right?

    re:.6
    
    And the money to renovate that building into a wafer fabrication area.
    It's not like you can move into a random office building and start
    production.  You've got to have the proper plumbing and air-filtration
    to deal with the hazardous chemicals and ultra-clean environment.
    
    And even more pressing than that, is the money and hassle of relocating
    the hundreds of associated people from Mass. to Arizona.  It's not like
    we hire new people every time there's a new technology, we roll them
    over from a previous technology. 
    
    Lisa

    re: .7
    
    Yes and if we run out, we know where to get more ;-)
    
    The companies involved in semiconductor fab obviously know something we
    haven't learned yet.  Delicate work doesn't call for unstable ground as
    a prerequisite.
    
    The sad fact is that the move makes too much sense.  
    
    Mike

>    And the money to renovate that building into a wafer fabrication area.
>    It's not like you can move into a random office building and start
>    production.  You've got to have the proper plumbing and air-filtration
>    to deal with the hazardous chemicals and ultra-clean environment.
    
    Most of which is here since there used to be a PWB shop here.  DEC-Tempe 
    is another possibility since they also have all of the above capabilities.
    
>    And even more pressing than that, is the money and hassle of relocating
>    the hundreds of associated people from Mass. to Arizona.  It's not like
>    we hire new people every time there's a new technology, we roll them
>    over from a previous technology. 
    
    Yes and you also have LOTS of existing talent that can be recruited
    from any of the previously mentioned companies.  They don't call this
    the Silicon Desert for nothing.
    
    You're right though, I doubt it will happen.
    
    Mike

    Mike, CMOS4 fab is different than PWB.
    
    Mark.

    Mark, I realize that.  Given our financial state, I question spending
    many millions of dollars on a new facility when we could possibly get
    away with spending 50% of that.
    
    Even the Thin Film Media process in Tempe (complete with 100 and 10K
    class clean rooms) couldn't compare with CMOS4, but it isn't that far
    away.
    
    Mike

    
    When it gets down to the bottom line, the cost of the air-handling
    system and plumbing, plus the cost of purchasing the equipment for the
    fab is much greater than the cost of the four walls that surround the 
    fab.  What you have in Arizona is four walls.  The cost to build those
    four walls in Mass. is much less than the "cost" to hire hundreds of
    new people to run the new plant and also to fire the hundreds of people
    with years of experience that are here now who will be obsolete.  It's
    like saying, "We have Project X already developed, Project Y under
    development, and Project Z which needs to be developed.  Instead of
    moving the Project X team to Project Z, lets just let them all go and
    hire an entirely new team who have never worked together for Project Z."
    
    And as for fault lines,  DEC has a manufacturing plant in Sunnyvale. 
    It survived the earthquake intact.  Didn't lose any major equipment.
    
    
    Lisa

  Re .10: Yes, semiconductor fab is quite different from PWB's. It's probably
more expensive to convert any building (other than an existing fab) to a state-
of-the-art fab than to build a new facility from scratch.
  Re people: We don't want to lay off people with IC manufacturing experience
in New England, then turn around and hire new people with the same experience
in Phoenix 3 years later. I'm glad to see that DEC is (apparently) going to
keep most of its fab lines in MA, where we can provide new work for our ex-
isting employees.
  I estimate that this plant, if it's built, will be up and running in 1994.
Does that sound right?

    
    re:   Phoenix as a potential site .......
    
    The company, nor the country, should NOT encourage growth in Phoenix,
    or Tuscon, or Los Angeles, etc. (anyplace that cannot sustain itself,
    please refer to the current drought). There are already too many
    people living in this part of the country, living of imported and
    state/federally subsidized water from over 1500-2000 miles away.
    
    This type of FAB technology is extremely water-intensive, a very
    serious problem that is causing these types of manufacturers a lot
    of grief in the Silicone Valley right now.
    
    The desert will someday (soon) reclaim Phoenix, with good cause.
    
    GROWTH is not equal to GOODNESS !
    
    - The Doctor
    

Boston Globe: March 13, 9991, Business Section, p. 65 
    
    {copied without permission}


NEW DIGITAL PLANT FOR ANDOVER OR HUDSON?
________________________________________
SEMICONDUCTOR FACILITY WOULD COST 500 MILLION



Despite Massachusetts' reputation as an expensive place to do business, 
DEC is exploring the feasibility of building an advanced, state-of-the-art 
semiconductor manufacturing plant here.

The plant would cost up to 500 million to build and would supply Digital 
with the critical ingredients for futher generations of computers.

The most likely location for the plant is Andover or Hudson, two towns 
where Digital owns land and already has semi-conductor facilities.  
Digital's headquarters are in Maynard.

The new facility would be far more advanced than Digital's existing 
semiconductor plant in Hudson and would be used to build more advanced 
chips that require a higher degree of percision than Digital's existing 
facilites offer.

A team of Digital engineers are visiting and evaluating seminconductor 
manufacturing facilities- and industry-sponsored chipmaking consortium in 
Austin, Texas. 

Semiconductors are tiny chips of silicon that function as the brains and 
memories of computers.  Digital buys many commodity semiconductors from 
their manufacturers, but the company makes most of its own microprocessors, 
a more complex semiconductor that functions as the computer's brains.  
Digital does not sell its semiconductors to outsiders.

Ed Caldwell, manager of semiconductor manufacturing and technology at 
Digital, who later this week becomes Vice President of Semiconductor 
Operations, yesterday confirmed that Digital is exploring building a new 
plant and that the desired location is Massachusetts.

"We do have plans for future factories," said Caldwell.  "It's in a very 
embryonic stage now."

Caldwell said tht no decision has been made yet on a specific location for 
the new plant within Massachusetts.  He added that after the semiconductor 
group makes its recommendation, the plan will have to go through management 
approval.  Caldwell said he hopes to see the plan go ahead in this calendar 
year.

Digital's plan to invest in a new semiconductor plant comes at a time when 
the company is cutting costs in other areas to cope with the changing 
economics of the computer market.  After incurring its first-ever quartely 
loss, Digital broke with its no layoff tradition and embarked on a plan to 
shed up to several thousand employees.

Despite the uncertain economy, Digital appears to be sticking to its long 
history of making necessary investments in reasearch and development and 
new facilities.  Just last fall, Digital opened a new semiconductor plant in 
Scotland.   And a pilot line in Hudson was recently activated, which may be 
the precursor to the new plant.

Caldwell yesterday said it is "too early to tell" how many workers the new 
chip facility would employ.  He indicated that the new plant would likely 
draw on Digital's current employee base.  "As our older factories become 
outdated, especially in the semiconductor area, we like to be able to 
recycle people in new facilities,"  Caldwell said.

In keeping with Digital's policy, Caldwell would not elaborate on what kind 
of semiconductors Digital would manufacture in the new plant other than to 
say the basic technology would be CMOS, for complementary metal oxide 
semiconductor.  CMOS chips are popular because they do not throw off a lot 
of heat, thereby eliminating the need for elaborate cooling systems.

    

I think you overestimate the danger from the New England fault.

Although there is seismic activity here, and there may someday be
another major earthquake like the one 300 years ago, there isn't
a whole lot of shaking going on, and what there is is minor and
infrequent.

/john

>    people living in this part of the country, living of imported and
>    state/federally subsidized water from over 1500-2000 miles away.
    
    not that it matters but you have too many 0's there.  Where we tap into
    the Colorado River is only 150-200 miles away.
    
    Mike

>    And it just so happens we have a 500,000 sq. ft. building in Phoenix 
>    that is empty.  I hope they do the right thing for a change and make a
>    sensible decision.

    An empty building is not going to save Digital very much if any money
    on it's next semiconductor plant.  In order to produce a 'class 1'
    manufacturing environment they would probably have to gut the existing
    building or not use it at all.  

    There are many good reasons to build it in Hudson(less in Andover IMO).
    The biggest one being personnel.  By the time Digital's next semiconductor
    FAB is completed, the older of the two manufacturing FABs in Hudson
    will be obsolete.  The people from that FAB (FAB3) could be moved to the 
    newer one. This would allow Digital to staff the new area without
    having to do a whole bunch of hiring or relocating.  Also FAB3 in
    Hudson will have to close in the next few years(or be re-fitted) to
    produce the newer technologies.  If this happened and the new FAB was
    built elsewhere Digital would have a whole bunch of engineers,
    equipment tech and manufacturing people with no work to do.  

    Digital develops it manufacturing processes in Hudson.  Having the
    actual manufacturing FAB in Hudson makes bringing up a new process easier
    and faster.  And in a our business this is very important.

    Just my opinion.

    -Bruce 

Where you tap into the Colorado River may only be 200 miles away, but
the river flowed through waterless desert for 600-800 miles before
getting to your tap.

    The head waters to the Colorado River go thru/begin in Wyoming and
    possibly further north. My sister lives in Glendo Wyoming next to the
    South Platte River which flows into the Colorado River. Every one along
    the Colorado River wants water and determining water distribution is a
    multi-state/federal problem. Everyone wants more then they get. If you
    don't balance the distribution there will be no water at the end of the
    rivers flow. Just because you want to grow and expand your local
    economy does't give you the right to use more water at the expense of
    all the others along the river. That includes DEC and all of the other
    high tech companies in the Phoenix area wanting to locate and expand 
    there. That area of the country has had water problems due to the lack
    of adaquite rain/snow fall for quite a few years. Not everybody,
    (people/industry/agriculture) gets all the water they think they need.
    The same is happening throughout the water basins in California.
    Everyone has to do with less inorder that everyone will have some water
    to use for their needs. Rationing and controlling distribution from
    the state and federal level is never easy but is tollerable and
    workable if properly orchastrated between all parties concerned.
    
    Time to get off my soapbox now.
    
    Regards
    AL ROOT
    

    Re: Hudson retrofits
    
    What will DEC do with the empty buildings after everyone is moved?
    
    Re: water
    
    If we have such a problem, why do areas of New England have rationing
    and we don't.  Your backyard isn't much better, water wise.
    
    Mike

    	Geez, the South Platte River is in the Eastern watershed, I
    thought, and flows east!  The Colo. River is headwatered in the
    Arapaho Nat'l Forest.  How does the water get over Milner Pass??
    
    KMP

>    Re: Hudson retrofits
>    
>    What will DEC do with the empty buildings after everyone is moved?
    
    Which building? 
    
>    Re: water
>    
>    If we have such a problem, why do areas of New England have rationing
>    and we don't.  Your backyard isn't much better, water wise.
    
    Digital has the capability of getting all the water it needs for it's
    current FAB at Hudson from an on site well.  I'm not sure if it is used
    or if town water is used.  As far as water rationing, where did you hear
    this?
    
    -Bruce  
    
    
    
    
    

>    or if town water is used.  As far as water rationing, where did you hear
>    this?
    
    I'm a native of central Mass.  DEC brought me out here.  My family
    experienced water rationing last summer in central Mass.  It isn't any
    secret that New England is running out of water.
    
    Mike

    The production of IC's requires the work of many different groups.  
    Circuit designers, layout persons, computer tools developers, product
    engineers, process development engineers, equipment engineers,
    manufacturing personnel, yield personnel, test personnel, packaging
    personnel, purchasing personnel, health & safety personnel among
    others.  It is generally advantageous to have all these people in close
    enough proximity so that they can communicate.  It would be very
    difficult to have half your people in Arizona and half in
    Massachusetts and expect an efficient and effective development
    process. It's not like you start from zero on a brand new technology,
    you draw from older technologies.  That's why it's so much more
    efficient to roll people over from an older technology.  They already
    are familiar with the Digital development process and with the
    technology that Digital is using to fabricate the chips.  It's also why
    you can't send half the group 3000 miles away.  They need to be in touch
    with the older technology group to exchange information about any
    sudden problems, or things to avoid in the future.  
    
    And as an extra tidbit, I'd say the outer four walls of the fab could
    be constructed for about the same amount of money as it would cost to
    buy one stepper.  Or maybe a stepper and an etcher.
    
    Lisa
      

    Re: -1
    
    Isn't there a chip design group in DEC-Israel?  Don't they build their
    designs in Hudson?  Didn't DEC open a semiconductor plant in Europe 
    recently?
    
    As for communications, isn't that what we make computers for? ;-)  
    Afterall, that was one of our selling points to customers about our 
    network (i.e., design in Israel, manufacture in Hudson).
    
    I understand what everyone's saying, just don't see how it is very
    different than what goes on today.  The costs you speak of are an
    entirely different issue.  I'm still not convinced that a retrofit of
    an existing plant would be more than $500M.
    
    What about Austin, TX?  The article mentioned this plant will
    participate in the Consortium.  Do we have a facility down there?  Why
    couldn't it be built there?
    
    Mike

>  Isn't there a chip design group in DEC-Israel?  Don't they build
    >their designs in Hudson?   
    
    Yes, there are also designers in Japan. Having chip designers in the
    same building as process designers and the manufacturing line is a
    bonus.  I don't think it is very common in the industry.  If you asked
    the management in Hudson, I think they would say that time to market
    has been decreased by having the designers so close to the
    manufacturing line(with some products). The important combination is
    having the process designers and manufacturing line that uses that
    process in same facility.  
    
> Didn't DEC open a semiconductor plant in Europe recently?

    And Digital has spent lots of money sending people from one plant to
    the other.  I myself will probably be going to the plant in Scotland
    for the third time next month.  Not that I mind, but 100's of round
    trips airfare plus logging is expensive. Digital had a few reasons for 
    building in Scotland.  With the SQF FAB and the plant in Ayr Scotland, 
    Digital is the only company that can go from silicon to finished system 
    in the UK.  This something Digital seems very happy to tell people. 
     
>    As for communications, isn't that what we make computers for? ;-)  
    Phone calls and document transfers just don't do it.

>I'm still not convinced that a retrofit of
>    an existing plant would be more than $500M.
    Something you don't seem to understand is that the price of the actual
    building is a very small percent of the cost of build a FAB.  The
    equipment that goes in the FAB cost many times more than the building.

>    What about Austin, TX?  The article mentioned this plant will
>    participate in the Consortium.  Do we have a facility down there?  Why
>    couldn't it be built there?

    SEMITECH is the consortium you are talking about in Austin.  Digital is 
    a member and has people on long assignments there.  Digital could build
    anyplace, but the closer to Hudson the plant is the easier it will be
    to get the FAB up and running and the easier(and cheaper) it will be to 
    transition people from the current facility to the new one. 
    
    -Bruce_who_doesn't_mind_rats

            <<< Note 1397.25 by PNO::HEISER "music over my head" >>>

>    I'm a native of central Mass.  DEC brought me out here.  My family
>    experienced water rationing last summer in central Mass.  It isn't any
>    secret that New England is running out of water.

    'tis one of the best kept secrets around.  New England is NOT running
    out of water.  During long, dry summers, some communities have problems
    with POTABLE water through community water distribution.  In Southern
    NH we have had summers when watering the lawn in communities that have
    community provided water supply was restricted.  However, those folks
    with deep wells had no problems.

         This topic is beginning to sound like a session of Congress.
    
         "As my honorable colleague from Arizona WELL knows, the new Air
    Force Base BELONGS in Massahoozits with all the other Air Force Bases.
    We cahn't be sending airplanes back and forth all the time."
    
         "To my esteemed fellow Congressperson from Boston, I say you've
    got enough Air Force Bases.  This one belongs in the middle of the
    desert.  How else can we justify asking for more water from Colorado?"
    
                                     Sheesh
    
                                      Greg

    
    Bruno, I think you inadvertantly hit on the real reason this
    plant will probably be built in Massachusetts. Politics.
    

>    Bruno, I think you inadvertantly hit on the real reason this
>    plant will probably be built in Massachusetts. Politics.
    
    I agree.  DEC is going back to the days of being a Rt. 495 company. 
    This will also help ease the pain of pending layoffs in the state's
    eyes.
    
    Mike

>>    Bruno, I think you inadvertantly hit on the real reason this
>>    plant will probably be built in Massachusetts. Politics.
>    
>    I agree.  DEC is going back to the days of being a Rt. 495 company. 
>    This will also help ease the pain of pending layoffs in the state's
>    eyes.
>    
>    Mike

    You guys must be right, you used you infinite knowledge of
    semiconductor manufacturing and concluded that the only reason to 
    build the next plant in Mass was politics. I commend you.

    -Bruce

    Too bad you don't live in Mass., anymore Mike.  I'd take you to see
    what a fab looks like and explain where all the money goes.  I'd also
    show you all the people involved with a fab, which might make it easier
    to understand why the new plant needs to be within commuting distance
    from the old one.  
    
    Did you know that all the floors in a fab have to be raised?  That
    all the air in the fab has to be completely recirculated every few
    hours to prevent contamination?  That all the fab areas have to be kept
    under raised pressure to ensure that particles go OUT of the fab and
    don't get sucked in?  Imagine the air-circulators that do that.
    
    Or the scrubber system for the waste gases and acids.  Some pretty
    nasty stuff gets used in processing that needs to be neutralized. 
    Acids and solvents that must be handled seperately.  There's no office
    building I know that could handle this.
    
    We just purchased a piece of equipment that weighs 22 tons.  Gee, I
    wonder if the floor is strong enough for that in Phoenix.
    
    As a very rough guess I'd say that renovating an already exisitng
    building would save less than 5% of the 500 million dollar cost of
    building the fab from scratch, if it saved anything. If the plant in
    Phoenix has more than one floor then all the floors have to come out to
    make room for the piping.  I would say that some of the roof might have
    to come out too, in order to get some of the bigger equipment in (using
    a crane).  That's assuming that the building was the right height to
    begin with.
    
    Lisa
    
    
    
    

    re .34
    
    Too bad you don't live in Phoenix, then you would realize that the
    PNO building is not just an office structure.
    
    If the major cost of one of these facilities is in the equipment,
    then the argument about location is falacious, since it will cost
    the same where ever it is built.  The PNO folks aren't very happy
    that several hundred of them are being layed off while the company
    looks to a new facility in Massachusetts.
    
    The 495 syndrome is not necessarily associate with the semi-conductor
    building.  The Phoenix Mfg plant also housed a distribution center
    which was serving our customers west of the Mississippi, but that
    is also being brought back to Westminister and Contoocook NH.
    
    The Southwest Financial Management Center in Phoenix is being relocated
    to Tempe, but rumor has it that that will be collapsed with the one
    from Colorado Springs in the next few years....
    
    The Digital Credit Union Office will be no more after PNO closes, and
    even the teller machine in Tempe may be taken out in June/July.
    
    As an employee who went to the field because DEC wanted to get more
    resources closer to the customer, shutting down facilities geographi-
    cally removed from Massachusetts while opening new one in Massachusetts
    seems to contain some political content.
    
    With manufacturing lowering populations in Cupertino and Tempe, but
    building new building in Massachusetts?  You do have to wonder why
    we could develop technology in California and move it to Vermont,
    but technology developed in Massachusetts has to stay there?
    
    I would think that if we have 4 years lead time to develop people,
    we could train the manufacturing folks in Phoenix to handle the
    new technology, but then there is the water issue???  I wish you
    had been here last week, when you could cross Union Hills because
    the rain created rivers where roads had been.  I also am a New England
    transplant, for those who think New England does not have a water pro-
    blem as great as Arizona's I strongly suggest you contact your local
    Watershed Assocation.  I was a member of two when I lived there, the
    Nashua and Merrimack River Watersheds.  When Boston wanted to tap the
    Merrimack, we New Hampshires raised a ruckus becuase it might lower
    our availability and programs to return native fish to the watersheds.
    
    Lets face it, we have more employees in higher positions in New England
    and those folks do not want to lose power or influence by having their
    employees located thousands of miles away.  So politics will enter the
    decision making.  We need to minimize the trauma, and planning for jobs
    in the future for the employees that have jobs today will help.  The
    folks out in silicon valley and the silicon desert just wish this plan-
    ning had been going on when their jobs were moved off-shore and wish
    they had a VP located in close proximity to them to assure them the
    next facility building "XYZ" would be in their back yard.
    
    Remember we could decide to outsource all manufacturing activity and
    have no need for these new buildings.  Others have done it before us
    to solve cost and other problems.  So don't question the reactions of
    those being let go due to the lack of previous planning.  There trust
    has been fractured by the events of the past six months and they do
    not believe the technical explainations defending decisions to build
    facilities in New England while we close remote locations.
    
    Those in semi conductor manufacturing who want to save their jobs, may
    be right that it is easier and less expensive to re-train people now
    involved in current technology than to train equally intelligent and
    dedicated manufacturing people in Phoenix.  But training will be re-
    quired and chosing whom to train and why has political ramifications
    as well as financial ones.  As the manufacturing folks in the silicon
    desert know, there are many jobs here with other companies doing chip
    manufacture and assembly right here in the valley.  Many wish they had
    the option of doing that work or any work for Digital instead.
    
    
    

re : CANYON::NEVEU

>    Too bad you don't live in Phoenix, then you would realize that the
>    PNO building is not just an office structure.

It also isn't a semiconductor FAB.

>    If the major cost of one of these facilities is in the equipment,
>    then the argument about location is falacious, since it will cost
>    the same where ever it is built.  

There are many cost of which equipment is one of them.  Personnel is another
one that would be limited by just adding on to the current facility. No matter
what, even if Digital did build at PNO, they would have to build a new building
to house the manufacturing area.  FAB's are like no other normal 
building(office, warehouse or assembly).  By building at Hudson Digital would
save in many ways of which saving in personnel would be large. because much of 
the personnel can come from the current facility. No need to hire from outside 
of DEC or relocate people.  These position are engineers and techs with 
semiconductor experience. So odds are that PNO or any other facility won't have
people to fill these slots.  If you build someplace other than Hudson you  have
to have an additional plant staff, MIS department...  If you just add a
building to Hudson the need for many of these people would be eliminated,  and
for others reduced. If this sounds like I want to keep my job so be it, but it
is also true.  Also I am currently considering taking a position in the South
Queensferry plant, if Digital opened a plant out west I and many others would
also have the opportunity to go and work there.

>    The PNO folks aren't very happy
>    that several hundred of them are being layed off while the company
>    looks to a new facility in Massachusetts.

I don't blame people for being unhappy,  but people are being layed off all
over.  Building are also being closed all over.  Most of the Andover facility
(which had been used for packaging and testing of semiconductors) has been
moved back to Hudson and people from both Andover and Hudson have been
layed off.  

   You do have to wonder why
>   we could develop technology in California and move it to Vermont,
>   but technology developed in Massachusetts has to stay there?

Cupertino creates a finished product, similar to memory(purchased from the 
outside), disks(made in Colorado), board(made in Greenville) or any of the
chips build in Hudson. It just a plug in part. "I think" the Cupertino plant
was purchased from a company called Trilogy(?) along with the process used at
that plant.  
    
>    I would think that if we have 4 years lead time to develop people,
>    we could train the manufacturing folks in Phoenix to handle the
>    new technology, 

Then you want to spend the money to train people in one place and layoff people
from another instead of just using the people that already are trained?  Does
this make sense?


> but then there is the water issue???  

Getting fresh water is not a problem.  Getting rid of the used water can be.

>    Lets face it, we have more employees in higher positions in New England
>    and those folks do not want to lose power or influence by having their
>    employees located thousands of miles away.  So politics will enter the
>    decision making.  We need to minimize the trauma, and planning for jobs
>    in the future for the employees that have jobs today will help.  

But does this mean that every decision the company makes is only politically
motivated?  Can't it be possible that Hudson would be the logical choice?
The VP of Semiconductors and Interconnect Ed Cadwell is in charge of plants
in MA(Hudson, Franklin and Andover), CA(Cupertino), SC(Greenville) and
Scotland(Ayr and South Queensferry).

>    So don't question the reactions of
>    those being let go due to the lack of previous planning.  There trust
>    has been fractured by the events of the past six months and they do
>    not believe the technical explainations defending decisions to build
>    facilities in New England while we close remote locations.

Many people are being let go in New England also, even people in the Hudson
facility. But because people out west are being let go doesn't make building
out west the right thing to do.  Plus as I said before if you build in Hudson 
you will just be adding to an existing facility which has it's benefits.  If 
Digital was just getting into the business of making semiconductors, then it
would be different.  But we aren't we are looking to get ready to produce the
next technology and need newer manufacturing area to do it.
    
>    Those in semi conductor manufacturing who want to save their jobs, may
>    be right that it is easier and less expensive to re-train people now
>    involved in current technology than to train equally intelligent and
>    dedicated manufacturing people in Phoenix.  

For manufacturing people this might be true, but for engineers(equipment and
process) it wouldn't.  Digital would have to hire new people and/or relocate 
others.  

-Bruce_who_is_begining_to_wonder_if_he_is_in_soapbox

    

  A minor nit re -.1: Newly appointed VP Ed Caldwell's group is called SCO, not
SCIT. He doesn't have Greenville and Cupertino under him. I don't know if there
is still a group called SCIT. SCIT was called SCO before before the PWB business
(Greenville) and interconnect business were placed within it.

Set mode/totally_serious

RE: .36

Please don't think of this as some sort of pointless SOAPBOXish argument.  I am
a software engineer.  I have never been to any of our manuf plants in the GMA
and have no plans to visit any of them anytime soon.

I was not aware of any of the trade-offs involved in the build_vs_remodel
decision and I knew nothing about what went into the plants.

This discussion is extremely enlightening.  It may not save anyone's job
in PNO.  It may not result in mass relocations to a new_and_improved
Phoenix facility.  But at least one person is getting a clue as to what
is involved in the decision and some of the reasons people have for their
viewpoints.

Thanks for that, anyway.

K.

    Did anyone else see the article in the Worcester Telegram, related
    to the new plant ?
    
    There is nothing "official", BUT (the article goes on) .. the new
    plan will be new technology, and is most likely to be built in
    Hudson Mass (near HLO). Other sites considered are Andover and
    possibly the DEC owned land in Lancaster (Mass, near Fitchburg).
    
    The gist of the article seems to be bent toward HLO, and that the
    people running it (the Wafer Fab people) need to already be trained.
    It would seem, even if the plant were built somehwere else, it would
    be staffed with people already experienced in wafer fabrication ??
    
    -BobE
    

     I sympathize with being caught in business change situation where
     there isn't a lot of choice available, but to state that it is the
     company policy to move everything into the Rt 495 area is not true.
     
     There isn't a lot of manufacturing left in the GMA (Greater Maynard
     Area). Most of it got the ax several years ago. 
    
        Marlboro Mfg which in its hey day was much bigger than PNO, is gone
        the High End Machines are now built in BTO (Burlington, VT) and GAO
        (Galway, Ireland).
        
        All of the Salem's are gone. Salem FA&T (NIO) went the way of the
        dodo (it used to build all the 780's and high end PDP 11's). Salem
        volume (SVO) was merged with Salem (NIO) and the Scorpio, Nautilus,
        and Calypso machines were built. Then the Scorpio was sent to KAO
        (Kanata, Ontario), the Nautilus to BTO and GAO, and the Calypso to
        GAO and Puerto Rico (AGO/SGO). All of CSS was moved out of Nashua
        and Hudson and consolidated in Salem NIO. The Salem proto module
        line is in the process of being merged with Maynard's New Product
        Organization - about 40 miles down the road.
        
        The WBO Westboro complex modules, and BPO Marlboro hybrid lines
        were consolidated into APO - about 40-50 miles up the road. The
        modules business was moved out of Andover and sent to Greenfield,
        SC.
        
        Westfield, WFO, which used to build the Pros, and the Rainbow, and
        other ESB products (and was to have built several other To Be
        Announced products) is fading away as their products are transferred
        up to Kanata, and out to Ayr, Scotland.
        
        Westminster, which was the last of the FA&T plants became the S/W
        Mfg plant, SBB, after a drastic reduction and reskilling effort.
        
        Enfield, CT is going bye-bye, being merged into Springfield, SPO to
        it's North.
     
     The only true Manufacturing left in the area is Hudson semiconductors,
     and the Springfield, storage products plant. There are low volume
     development facilities in Andover APO, Marlboro MOO, Shrewsbury SHR,
     Maynard MLO, and maybe some other places that I can't remember
     offhand.
     
     There is a committee called the North American Restructuring Committee
     or NARC (interesting acronym) who is analyzing plant load across the
     company and is rumored to have the task of figuring which plants to
     close. Rumors abound about the potential closing of about every plant.
     
     Where Mfg is expanding is overseas ... and not just for supposedly
     cheap labor, but for tax and tariff reasons. We just built a
     semiconductor Fab South Qeensferry, Scotland to help increase our
     European content before the advent of 1992. We built Kaufburen, KBO
     for storage products for much the same reasons. We are expanding in
     Brazil, because you can't sell in Brazil without local content. We
     build in Singapore, ZKO, because of low labor rate and we get Japanese
     Memories at no tariff which helps in the GIA area. We build in Puerto
     Rico because of tax incentives given to us by the US government.
     
     In almost every case, the local labor rate is not the major cost
     component of manufacturing, depreciation of equipment is. The typical
     module takes only 1-2 labor hours hours to build and test. 50-60% of
     the value added cost is depreciation of all the automated equipment
     required to build that module, direct labor is only in the range of
     10-20%. Total Mfg costs run only 10-20% of the total transfer cost.

     When I am faced with a local tariff of 10-22% of the total product
     cost because it is not manufactured locally, it doesn't take a rocket
     scientist to figure out that no matter how we improve the the cost to
     manufacture in the good ol' US of A, it still is much cheaper for the
     company to build a Mfg facility in the locality. That is why most Mfg
     is migrating overseas.

     When I first transferred up to Salem 10 years ago, there were 1300 folk
     between NIO and SVO involved in manufacturing computer systems and
     components. Seven years ago there was just NIO and about 700-900 folk.
     3 years ago, there was just our New Product Introduction Group of
     about 350 people. Last year we were down to 118 people. We numbered 78
     by Christmas time, and supposedly we will be down to 55 by fiscal
     years end. It still takes several hundred people to introduce a new
     computer system, but now those folks come from Puerto Rico and Galway,
     many TDY'ed here in Salem for the development phases on the program.

     All that is left here in Salem, is the program Mgmt function because
     it needs to be near Engineering, and several folk have suggested that
     could be accomplished by people from Puerto Rico and Galway either by
     use of video conferencing or TDY'ers from those plants.

     It now takes us much less time and people to manufacture a computer
     system (about an order of magnitude from 780's). Mfg value add as a
     percentage of total system transfer cost has dropped from 40% to about
     10-15%, and is expected to drop below 10% in the next couple of years.
     Consolidation of Mfg has been occurring and will continue to occur. The
     dominant trend will be to disperse Mfg to provide local country
     content to avoid tariffs.

     We maybe building a semiconductor plant along Rt 495, but for the most
     part manufacturing as a percentage of company will be decreasing for
     the foreseeable future.

     /jim

>  A minor nit re -.1: Newly appointed VP Ed Caldwell's group is called SCO, not
>SCIT. He doesn't have Greenville and Cupertino under him. I don't know if there
>is still a group called SCIT. SCIT was called SCO before before the PWB business
>(Greenville) and interconnect business were placed within it.

    Sorry about that I wasn't aware the IT was lost.  Did they name a new
    VP for Greenville and Cupertino to report to, or do they still report
    to Bob Palmer?  Also I said that Ed Caldwell had Ayr reporting to him.  
    He is actually only has the Semiconductor assembly and test part of the
    facility reporting to him.


>Set mode/totally_serious
>Please don't think of this as some sort of pointless SOAPBOXish argument.  I am
>a software engineer.  I have never been to any of our manuf plants in the GMA
>and have no plans to visit any of them anytime soon.

    Sorry if that comment bothered you, it was directed at a couple of the
    previous replies.  BTW, my diploma also says software engineer on it.

    -Bruce