Conference 7.286::digital

    Go to CD ROM completely - cut the costs of documentation to DIGITAL by
    50%+!

    CD ROM?  How are the folks in the field supposed to read it?  
    
    RE 0.  I'm in doc'n too.  I don't think we can cut 50% of our
    printing costs.  Especially in technical documentation.  
    We already limit our costs by using DEC STD 073 and limiting
    ink colors, fancy covers, etc.
    
    I can see how to cut 50% from marketing materials and those
    glossy quarterly reports though!  

    Think of the big picture...  How many of you receive those irritating
    weekly Ed Services one-page color propaganda sheets?  Couldn't we
    survive without them?  If I want to take a course, couldn't I look up a
    catalogue in VTX and enroll?
    
    True, you couldn't go completely to CD ROM without first outfitting the
    receiving organizations with CD readers - but aren't we supposed to use
    what we sell here?
    
    I _do_ believe that we can cut 50% out of documentation costs (and as
    someone that has written specs seemingly all their life, I wouldn't
    mind if I didn't have to write so much, follow every DMR page, etc..).
    
    Of course, I believe you can cut 50% out of almost anything...
    
    ML

         Go to CD ROM completely and wipe out all of the savings by having
    to provide everyone with the equipment to read them?  Not a wise move.
    
         Depending upon which piece of equipment the person needed, the IEG
    freeze might prevent them from acquiring it.  Then, we're back to old
    fashioned paper again.
    
                                      Greg

    Re: .3:  and using what we sell.
    
    Yes, this is true.  But in order to put CD readers everywhere, we'd
    have to buy them from IEG, and IEG orders have been sliced.
    
    It's another Catch-22.
    
    I agree about the training blurbs sent on heavy grade paper to everyone
    in DEC.  Let's use electronic means for that stuff.  I get an average
    of two training announcements per week via MAIL.  VTX could cover the
    rest.  I doubt many people are "trained on impulse" which is what those
    mass mailings are for anyway.  If I want a course, I search it out
    because I need it.   
    
    There is a select subset that will still need to get paper
    announcements.  Let's target that class and reduce printing costs and
    save a few trees.
    
    And, while we're at it, what we do print for internal consumption
    should be printed on recycled paper.   It really irks me to get this
    stuff printed on glossy paper.   Using recycled paper will save
    printing costs too...

    I'm all for reducing the size of our documentation.  We could start by
    changing the doc-styles so there isn't so much white space.  That
    should reduce the page count around 20%.  (The VMS manuals are
    particularly bad this way.)
    
    Next time you see a VMS doc set being delivered (on a fork-lift truck)
    take a look at the shipping label to see how much it weighs.
    
    I refuse to have one in my office.  And I don't see many people around
    me ever looking into their sets.

Geez, they stole my cost cutting suggestion that I was about to send in.
As a prime example of printing waste, I have on my desk a copy of a cost 
cutting memo issued by John Sims on Sept. 14th.  It is a 3 page memo, and
by the time it filtered down to me through VAXmail, it had 6 pages of mail
headers and distribution lists.  That combined with the mail flag page and 
the blank page at the beginning and end of the print job, it took 12 sheets
of paper to print the 3 page memo.  If one quarter of the company's employees
print a copy of this same memo with the same amount of wasted pages, that's 
approximately 270,000 wasted pages for one memo!

Now normally I would just read most memos on the screen, rather than
print them.  But by the time I've hit return 3 or 4 times and still
haven't reached the text of the memo, I'll just issue the "print" 
command and read the hardcopy of the memo after it prints.  There's got 
to be better method of distributing information with less waste.  Even
without printing these memos, the 6 pages of headers and distribution
lists take up disk space, which ain't free either.

Rick

    re: .7
    
    You, and people like you, could avoid waste by having more patience.
    Printing a 3-page memo, even if it required only three sheets instead
    of 12, wastes much more of DEC's resources than you hitting the return
    key an additional 3 or 4 times.
        John Sauter

    The cost of manufacturing documentation that supports Digital products
    is enormous.  Those costs, if reduced, can result in increased revenue
    for the product lines. I don't believe the intent is to reduce the
    value of product documentation by cutting out chunks of potentially
    useful information, but rather to reduce the cost of producing it.
    
    Publications groups across Digital have taken steps to reduce the cost
    of writing books and to minimize (if not eliminate) documentation as a
    risk factor in meeting time to market goals. Those efforts continue
    with the development of new electronic tools for writing and art, new
    programs like demand printing and electronic film mastering, and of
    course the online documentation disc.
      
    The OLD disc is certainly a step in the right direction, but the 
    corporation has barely scratched the surface (no pun intended) of the 
    potential market for electronic forms of documentation. Not everyone 
    has access to a DECwindows capable terminal, and not everyone is 
    willing to sacrafice that margin and white-space for scribbling notes. 
    As the BookReader evolves and as DECwindows becomes more popular on the
    desks of customers, I would expect to see paper documentation as an
    option rather than the CD.
    
    -Paul
    
     

There are some interesting trade-offs involved here (and worth more study
than this brief note can give)

-- CDROMS have a capital investment of about $500 (retail) + host computer
   resources.  Each ROM costs about $1000 to master, and $1/per rom to
   make.  We could probably dump all of our engineering publications on
   CDROMS monthly.  The long-term savings (over paper + printing + shipping)
   are significant.  (I would guess that our VMS doc-set costs run about
   5 cents/page in manufacturing costs, by comparison -- can anyone give
   a better estimate?)

-- On the other hand, reading technical documentation through a 24 line
   window is next to impossible, and we'll end up printing manuals one
   at a time through laser printers.  This might still end up cheaper,
   as the specialist will only print one or two pages (chapters?).  Most
   specialists have never opened half of the five-foot shelf VMS documentation.

-- Perhaps a better solution is to re-think our documentation so the
   actual information is presented in small (one page) self-contained
   units.  The Unix V6 "manual page" approach has turned out to be
   extremely useful.  "Hypertext" (where text is combined with indexing)
   may be another useful mechanism -- look at the Emacs online help for
   one approach.

-- This leads us to overall engineering design: if we decide to do our
   engineering documentation in "one page" units, we may have to re-think
   the way we design systems, rejecting the VMS Swiss Army Knife approach
   in favor of the Unix "small units with well-defined interconnections"
   design.  I think the overall VMS design philosophy, for better or for
   worse -- is responsible for the bloated manual set.

Unfortunately for the cost-cutting people, you can't just decide to cut
printing costs until you understand the real source of those printing
costs: anything else (replacing glossy paper by newsprint), while admirable,
is not a long-term solution.

Martin.

 Standards and Methods Control (SMC) will distribute its first "quarterly" 
 CDROM on October 1st.   This CDROM will contain many Digital standards and 
 other related documents in readable and printable formats.  SMC will be 
 adding many more EL-class documents in subsequent releases and also plans 
 to add optional readable formats (e.g. VTX-like, Bookreader).  This first 
 CDROM release will cost $30.00.

 Over time, SMC hopes that the use of this CDROM (by reading the electronic 
 files online) will significantly reduce Digital's costs associated with 
 printing, distributing, and maintaining hard copy internal documents.

 The user interface on this CDROM is similar to SMC's videotex system.  All 
 software needed to run the CDROM application is on the CDROM, however, 
 Version 5.3 or higher of VAX/VMS is required.  Character cell terminals are 
 fine to use with this product.  DECwindows is not necessary.  (Please note, 
 also, that in an effort to eliminate outdated information from being accessed 
 and used, the indexing application on the CDROM won't be usable after 
 15-March-1991.)  The CDROM is compatible with Digital's line of CD readers, 
 the RRD50 and RRD40, but not with PC-based CD readers.  

 If you'd like to know more about the SMC CDROM (what it contains and how to 
 order it), please first read EL-CDROM-00, "User's Guide to Digital Standards 
 and Related Documents on CDROM," which can be ordered from SMC VTX for no 
 charge.  Instructions:

     $ VTX SMC  (or use the Keyword "SMC" from the Corporate Videotex Library)
       Press: PF1 7
       Use Keyword: EL-CDROM-00<return>
       Choose Option 1 to begin the order process.

 Or, just order EL-CDROM-01 for the CDROM itself.

As long as folks insist that improved solutions replace all previous
solutions and do so without any change to previous behavior then the
effort is so handicapped as to move at a snail's pace.

We should put on CDROM what we can put on CDROM for those who can
use it, on whatever display devices we can reasonably accomodate.

You don't need a CDROM player at every desk!!! You need them at crucial
points in the network.  You can use the network, local disk, tape, and
other methods to heirarchially distribute information.

We should avoid printing when we can.  When we must we should avoid
excessive flag/burst/trailer pages.  We should fix our mail products
to drop name lists where they are not wanted needed.

In other words we should do all these things and more, and we shouldn't
hold up some of the better ones (like CDROM) because a subset of people
who can't use it on day one can be identified.

Evolution, not revolution.

- greg

    Has anyone asked our customers whether they want documentation
    delivered via CDROM?  Like microfiche of 15 years ago, it's a slick
    little technology with limited usefulness.  Where it works, fine,
    but let's not let the techno-weenies drive the business.
    
    I agree that someone should stop the Ed Services mailings.  That is
    one of the most visible wastes in the Corporation.  I also looking
    right now at a very large, pink, high quality FY91 calendar printed
    on expensive poster paper.  These are printed by the thousands, and
    NO ONE needs them.  What is required is a documentation/printing
    czar with absolute authority to pull the plug on any and all unneeded
    documentation.  Fat Chance!

    We are in a dither because there has been absolutely no clarification
    of what "printing costs" are involved.  Internal printing costs? 
    Customer documentation printing costs?  All printing, like from LN03s
    or LPS40s?  What?  My group specifically has concerns because we don't
    have direct control over printing costs.  For us, the SSB is our direct
    customer; they in turn hire the printer.
    
    If we assume the memo means what it says, we are to print fifty percent
    fewer pages.  I do not know if customers will like some of the things
    we may have to do.  If I were implementing it, I would first stop
    giving engineers and reviewers paper copies of customer manual drafts. 
    I would also stop using second colors in customer documentation, so
    they can go onto CD-ROMs without translation.  (Of course, color is the
    most popular single feature of our manuals, and customers are adamant
    about our keeping it, but the heck with them 8^(  I might also go more
    aggressively into the CD-ROM only mode of distribution, with printed
    manuals available only on request (like water in a California
    restaurant), but, as Mr. Lennard observes in .13, I'm not sure anyone
    has asked customers if they really want that from us.  I do know that
    IBM distributed System/38 user information only on line, but those
    customers demanded the return of printed books (!).
    
    Is the seemingly laudable answer "we've already reduced our costs"
    going to work when we've been told to reduce fifty percent MORE?  
    Pray tell, more than what?

    re: A few back (PRINTING MAIL)

    unless you want to read all those headers why not just ext/noheader
    edit the file just created to delete the extras and then print the file
    locally or better yet at the mail prompt instead to pushing return
    just type EXT TT and the message will scroll through with no stops.

    DEC mail coming to the house is a waste. Why not just send in inter
    plant and save the $ postage. Better yet post what it might be in a
    notes file (where it is more likely to be read or on VTX.

    The easiest way to cut printing costs 50% would be to only print every
    other page.  In fact, you could improve on this percentage if you
    printed only even-numbered pages, because you sometimes have a blank
    verso at the end of a chapter anyway.
    
    Of course, if you accept the fact that documentation is part of the
    product, this method could cost us a lot of sales.  But hey, when did
    Digital ever let customers tell us how to run our business.
    

    I like .16's idea!
    
    >But hey, when did
        Digital ever let customers tell us how to run our business.
    
    
    But, hey, when did the customers ever read our documentation?

    I've been getting alot of stuff over the network as far as training 
    goes which I think is a good idea!  Including course confirmations and
    cancellations from DIS Training in Bedford.  I wish the Field Service
    training/seminars and DIS Training/seminars would stop coming on paper.  
    Its usually met with a remark like "Oh boy another class I won't be able 
    to take" by people in the office.  So it immediately gets deep sixed in
    the circular file.
    
Bryan

    I believe that when Mr. Smith talks about cutting printing costs by
    50%, that is exactly what he means, i.e., the cost of actually turning
    out the printed products.  I'm surprised at the number of people who
    claim to be in the documentation business, who think that means
    reducing the page count by 50%.  That won't do it.  "Set-up" costs
    don't change, front and back matter and covers and tabs still have
    to be done, assembly remains about the same, etc.  This is all mostly
    independent of page count.  In my ten years of experience in pubs with
    DEC, the size of the job is usually the biggest single cost element.
    Low-volume runs, with subsequent reprints, is very expensive.  I've
    seen a lot of low-volume initial runs in my time either out of poor
    planning, but also to make the budget look good.  This is because
    the funder usually pays for the initial printing...but not for
    follow-ons.
    
    The name of the game is to get really good at forecasting, but also
    to simply get rid of a lot of the junk we presently are inundated
    with.
    

    Anent .17 (Woodward):  They start reading our documentation as soon as
    they realize they're not getting their tasks done because they tried to
    get away without reading our documentation 8^)

Re .20:

Nope, those guys call Colorado, or the Engineer for whatever their
problem is that they saw at themost recent DECUS (I have recieved 
a couple of "IYou don't knoe me but I saw you at DECUS <whever> and
I need to know how to  ......"


		U gotit

				Bill

>    Has anyone asked our customers whether they want documentation
>    delivered via CDROM?  Like microfiche of 15 years ago, it's a slick
>    little technology with limited usefulness.  Where it works, fine,
>    but let's not let the techno-weenies drive the business.
    
Customers have asked for this at every DECUS for over five years,
in very large numbers.  It got standing ovations when it was announced.
It was the busiest booth on the demo floor two DECUS's running.  It
has been one of the most popular DECwindows demos.  Apple has complimented
us on the implementation.  Microsoft, HP, IBM, and others have announced
copycat programs.  Many major customers have repeated asked for it, asked
for character cell versions, asked for additional features, asked
for ... (in other words it is requested and discussed a lot).

Need more?

- greg

PS: the real problem is DEC used to be a center of advanced computing.
    It was one of the reasons I joined.  Terminals, networks, "WOW".

    Nowaday, ugh, we're crude and old fashioned.  Still printing paper,
    using character cell terminals, it's terrible --- we're backward.

    And now we're paying the price because we've designing products
    based on internal audiences when half of our customers have moved
    beyond us.  People did things on PCs five years ago that still
    can't be done on the average DEC internal configuration.

    Good points in -.1.
    
    I'd like to add another point in response to a tongue in cheek reply or
    two: good - and I mean REALLY GOOD - software should not need a manual
    at all!
    
    OK, that's a blanket statement, and I realize that some software for
    some reason seems to just HAVE to be complicated, but OUR goal in
    software development should be to make it completely usable WITHOUT A
    PAGE OF HARDCOPY DOCUMENTATION!  
    
    Online, artificially intelligent help (particularly if it reading off a
    CD, for example, for speed)  CAN take the place of documentation.  As
    to those that say the users will never use on-line help - HOGWASH I
    say!  They'll never use BAD on-line help...   
    
    In fact, I've been playing with the Mac outside the company for a few
    months now, and I have never read a manual, and I am able to survive on
    it!  (I do have an expert next to me to answer questions, though).
    Also, have you ever seen a user manual for an arcade game?  And some of
    them have some pretty complex logic paths...  No manual.  (Yeah,
    Nintendo has a little pocket one, but it doesn't tell you everything,
    and lets you figure it out as you go.)
    
    That's the kind of cost-cutting we need; those brought about through
    permanent changes in philosophy - not the penny ante hack and slay that
    will be forgotten about when things turn around!
    
    JMHO,
    
    Dave

    The DIGITAL TODAY internal newspaper - there's less than 40 people in
    this facility, but we get this box with 100 copies.  Every, what, two
    weeks we're drowning in the stuff.  I can have one for my office, and
    one for home, and one for...
    
    karl

    Non-trivial software requires documentation.  I own a Mac too, and "get
    by" without documentation in many cases.  But try FullWrite
    Professional or WORD or Studio 8 or some of the other products of great
    power and endless features without a manual and you'll see what I mean.
    
    Digital write complex software.

    A couple of points -
    
    DIGITAL TODAY could disappear from the face of the earth at no loss
    to anyone I know!  We hardly need another propaganda rag.  The only
    question is how to recycle those niftly little racks.
    
    If everyone that printed out mail on a LPS40 set the number_up to 2,
    that would save 50% of the paper used.  And I too can't believe how 
    many people seem to print out their entire mail files regularly.
    
    But let's get real here - I didn't see Jack Smith's memo, so maybe I
    will eat these words, but I get the impression from the base note that
    this is another edict: cut printing costs by 50%.  What are the
    indications that we spend double what we need to on printing?  What
    gyrations will we go through to meet an arbitrary figure?  Sure, every-
    body knows there's waste and mismanagement, and we all want to help.
    But, I'll sure start feeling better when I stop hearing how Jack Smith
    said this or that, and when I start hearing how Jack's staff, or his
    staff's staffs are begining to implement change.
    
    John Wilson 

    Seriously, the demand printing solution that we demo'd at DECworld is a
    great way to cut overall printing costs by avoiding the excess printing
    of documentation on low volume products.  
    

    If you are experiencing a problem with the distribution of "digital
    today", we would like to know.  There is an account set up for such
    requests.  SALES::NEWS, or NEWS @ OGO.
    
    Re:  .27 - FYI "digital today" was put in place as a response to a
    request from Ken Olsen.  Our editorial policy is one of "no review", so
    I am unclear as to why you regard the publication as "another
    propaganda rag."   We do our utmost NOT to publish propaganda.  If you
    can point out where you see it, please let us know.
    
    Thanks,
    Paula 

Re .10:

>-- This leads us to overall engineering design: if we decide to do our
>   engineering documentation in "one page" units, we may have to re-think
>   the way we design systems, rejecting the VMS Swiss Army Knife approach
>   in favor of the Unix "small units with well-defined interconnections"
>   design.  I think the overall VMS design philosophy, for better or for
>   worse -- is responsible for the bloated manual set.

Recall the following marketing slogan by Robert Praetorius:

	VMS - there's a long list of arguments for it


Re .16:

>    The easiest way to cut printing costs 50% would be to only print every
>    other page.  ...

Ha-ha.

As I recall, at ZK there was a ruling from on-high against buying non-Digital
laser printers.  Otherwise we could have had a few Xerox 8700-style printers 5
years ago (MR did), instead of many more smaller printers.  The 8700 prints
double-sided - LPS40s and LN03s can't.  The software for the 8700 made it a
little easier to print double-sided 2-up than any n-up on the LPS40.  And the
8700s were visibly more reliable to boot.  Smart move, eh?

(There are some LPS20s in our machine room which can print double-sided, but
they were installed for the writers and as I recall, engineers have been told
not to use them (much).  I don't think they want us degrading their print
quality, or something).
				/AHM

We can start by getting rid of the redundant and/or unnecessary internal DEC 
publications. A merger of some would be in order. For example do we really need 
both Digital this week and NH view in their present forms? Why not merge them?
Note that both are distributed at ZKO, guess that says sumptin??

Having read through all the notes previous, I'm bemused that:

o This whole discussion is pretty much around cutting "printing" 
  costs as opposed to overall documentation costs.

o Only a few replies have even hinted at why we need documentation:
  (ideally) to increase the likelihood (sp?) that people ** can do
  their jobs as effectively as possible. **

o No one has mentioned that you can't measure the quality of 
  documentation by page counts.

o No one has pointed out that probably a good portion of our 
  documentation (note, not just printing) costs are due to writers, editors, 
  and illustrators having to clean up (and in some cases actually write) 
  engineering specs before they can tackle the customer documentation.

  The particular culture of a given engineering dept. will prevail, and
  if the culture does not mandate well-commented code and updated specs,
  then our documentation costs will continue to be high.

o No one has admitted that the various documentation groups around the 
  company are just as guilty as other organizations of having deadwood, 
  doing or re-doing jobs that don't need to be done, and protecting 
  their turf: there's a HUGE investment in the status quo.

o No one has mentioned the role that good old project management can
  play IF it's properly applied.

o No one has mentioned training and using new documentation methods
  as one way to bring down documentation costs or to increase revenue.
  And I'm not talking spelling and grammar classes.  I'm talking about
  learning and applying methods such as structured documentation,
  storyboarding, and Information Mapping (this list was not 
  all-inclusive). 

Acknowledging environmental concerns (and at the risk of making some   
people angry), paper is cheap compared to peoples' time and the disasters 
that poorly written documentation introduce to business. (Yes, the hardware 
and software are also to blame, but this note is about documentation.)

Printing costs are a symptom of a much, much larger problem.

Rose

    Re: .31
    
    ZKO is unusual in getting both New Hampshire View and Digital This
    Week.  The origin of that is that initially ZKO was populated largely
    by people moving up from Tewksbury and Maynard, and many people still
    had ties to Massachusetts, so there was a request to provide DTW
    in addition to NHV, which at that time (and still today) didn't
    really include ZKO in its scope.
    
    I would consider these types of publications to be among the more
    valuable.  The ones I wish we could get rid of are the ones that
    I can't get OFF of the mailing list for.  I do admit though that
    the situation is much better today than it was five years ago, in
    that I get far fewer useless publications than I did then.
    
    
    Re: all
    
    I am all in favor of CDROM as a way of reducing our publishing
    costs, and so are customers who bear the brunt of the high prices
    we charge for our documentation.  No, it's not for everyone, but
    with CDROM I now have available to me at my desk the manuals for
    dozens of products whereas before I was lucky if I had an up to date
    VMS docset.  (I can finally read the NOTES manual, for instance!)
    
    The technology is still in its infancy, but it is here now and is
    useful now, and will only get better.  It won't entirely replace
    paper, but it will, in time, dramatically reduce our use of paper
    and will conserve trees.  (Have you ever seen the statistics on how
    many trees were cut down to print the VMS V5 docset?  It's
    frightening!)
    
    				Steve

re .30: double sided, reliable printing; n-up

DEC now offers a line of desktop laser printers that includes a duplex (two-
sided printing) model.  This is the DEClaser 2000 family, offering ANSI-style
and (optional) PostScript support.

How much easier can n-up be?  It's one parameter with an argument on the
/PARAMETER switch to PRINT (as is duplex/simplex selection), and the 
selection of these parameters can be folded into your redefinition of 
your usual PRINT symbol.

Try two-up duplex for normal reading, and 4-up duplex for material you scan
as opposed to pore through (large NOTES extracts and such).

...but yes, reduce (by streamlining) the amount of stuff there is to read...

- tom]

re: .10:

   CDROMS have a capital investment of about $500 (retail) + host computer
   resources.  Each ROM costs about $1000 to master, and $1/per rom to
   make.

Oops: I was thinking of an Apple marketing program and got the numbers wrong.
The program is a one-time offer to get developers interested in creating
CD-ROMS.  For $1,500, you get

	100 copies of the CD ROM
	of up to 550 Mbyte (Apple disk format)
	10 day turn-around
	2-color artwork on the CD

The offer is through three CD ROM mastering houses: 3M, Philips, and Sony.

The $500 cost is a heavily discounted quantity-one price for the Apple CD Rom,
and probably fairly close to their wholesale price.  Retail prices are running
around $800 per drive.

Martin.

Re .34:

>How much easier can n-up be?

$ print me:login.com/l132d

>It's one parameter with an argument on the
>/PARAMETER switch to PRINT (as is duplex/simplex selection), and the 
>selection of these parameters can be folded into your redefinition of 
>your usual PRINT symbol.

This is my reward for trying it now:

"
$ print me:login.com/parameters:(page_orientation:landscape,number_up:2,sides:2)
Job LOGIN (queue LPS40, entry 912) started on LPS40$PS2
$
%LPS-E-PARSYNERR, Syntax error in the /PARAMETERS qualifier at or near PAGE_ORIE
NTATION:LANDSCAPE
$

Job LOGIN (queue LPS40$PS2, entry 912) terminated with error status
%SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort
$
"

I think I understand what all the problems are, so you needn't waste time
explaining them.  However, neither am I going to waste time dealing with them
as I print things from time to time.  I have more important tasks whose tools
incessantly demand my time for workarounds every bleeding day.
				/AHM

    Re: .36
    
>I think I understand what all the problems are, so you needn't waste time
>explaining them.  However, neither am I going to waste time dealing with them
>as I print things from time to time.  I have more important tasks whose tools
>incessantly demand my time for workarounds every bleeding day.
    
    But you have time to post "ad machinum" attacks in DIGITAL?  :-)

    'fraid I agree that DIGITAL TODAY can go away.  It has rapidly become
    another propaganda rag with mandatory articles by senior management.
    I somehow thought it was going to be different....maybe KO did also.
    
    But then, I haven't seen it for several weeks out here (CXN), so maybe
    it's already gone.

    a) put DIGITAL TODAY and the other house organs online;
    b) train *every last employee* how to access it; 
    c) make sure they get the time each week, month, whatever to do so.

Re .37:

>But you have time to post "ad machinum" attacks in DIGITAL?  :-)

Value my differences, Tim.
				/AHM

	I was psyched to get a notice in internal mail asking me if I
	wanted to continue to be sent the Office Applications Flyer.


	However, I was NOT psyched to see that I actually had to RETURN
	the notice, thru internal mail, in order to no longer receive
	the flyer.


	Wouldn't it be more efficient to return it if you DO want to
	continue receiving the flyer?  I wonder how many people saw the
	notice and threw it away thinking "great!  I'll no longer get
	it" without reading the fine print?

	Hummmmmmmmmmm..............


	kath

RE: .41

I want to know why they wanted my mailstop and job code on the form to
terminate the flyer.  They don't need the mailstop if they aren't going to send
me anything any more, and my job code is none of their business, or if it is,
they can ask Personnel for it.

--PSW

    Better still, ask why they needed any of that when their printed
    mailing label was attached to the form!
    
    			Steve

This strikes me as another specimen of my favorite DECfoible - the redundant
information request.

It seems to me that 90% of the information I'm asked to enter on DEC-internal 
forms could be determined instantly by anyone who had my badge number and 
access to a simple personnel database.  Think about it.  How many times a day 
are you asked to provide your badge number and one or more of the following:

	Mail stop
	DTN
	Email address
	Area/district/Unit (for field personnel)
	Cost Center
	Cost Center MAnager's name
	Job classification
	
Considering that we are (or at least should be) one of the most thoroughly
automated organizations going, why can't we get enough integration to do away 
with this unnecessary replication?

-dave

    re: Badge numbers
    
    Your badge number can change (and you don't need to leave the company
    and re-join to make this happen).
    I have two badge numbers (although only one is active at any time).
    My original one was changed when I transfered from the sales sub.
    to manafacturing. Since then, I've moved back into the sales sub
    (and used my original number), and back into manafacturing (and
    now use my second number).
    
    Joe

For what it's worth ... the users that I support (system manager) do a
lot of development with VAX DOCUMENT.  Often, users need to check parts
of a module or book.  Although it IS possible for DOCUMENT to produce
PostScript files that represent only part of the output of an SDML file,
many users find the process to be complicated and/or tedious. 

A couple of months ago, I hacked out a pair of command files that will
print page-to-page from a complete PostScript file.  The routines let
the users process a whole module or book, but print only part(s) of it. 

I've attached the command files to this reply.  The first is
PAGE_PRINTER.COM.  It's purpose is to provide a relatively simple way
for users to submit the second, PAGE_PRINTER_BATCH.COM, as a batch job. 
The batch job: 

  o  creates a temporary page-to-page PostScript file

  o  prints that file on the printer that you designate

  o  deletes the temporary file

So ... here are the command files to do with as you will.  I make no
excuses for style or efficiency nor the lack of either ... nor can I offer
any support.  Feel free to use the routines if you like and to modify
them in any way that suits your circumstances. (You WILL need to change
or DEFINE the logical name SYS$TOOLS that I've used in PAGE_PRINTER.COM.) 

Enjoy,
Terry

P.S.  If you're fortunate enough to have access to a VAXstation, the 
      DECwindows CDA Viewer in VMS V5.4 lets you display PostScript
      files on your monitor.

================================================================================
$!  PAGE_PRINTER.COM
$!
$ AskSource: IF P1 .NES. "" THEN GOTO AskFirst
$	INQUIRE/NOPUN P1 "Source File?  "
$	GOTO AskSource
$ AskFirst: IF P2 .NES. "" THEN GOTO AskLast
$	INQUIRE/NOPUN P2 "First Page?  "
$	GOTO AskFirst
$ AskLast: IF P3 .NES. "" THEN GOTO PrintSymbol
$	INQUIRE/NOPUN P3 "Last Page?  "
$	GOTO AskLast
$ PrintSymbol: IF P4 .NES. "" THEN GOTO DoIt
$	WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "Printer Control?"
$	INQUIRE/NOPUN P4 " (PS40, PS03R, PRINT/QUEUE=..., etc.)  "
$	GOTO PrintSymbol
$ DoIt: P5 = F$LOG("SYS$DISK")+F$DIR()
$ SUBMIT/NOLOG/QUEUE=SYS$BATCH-
	/PARAMS=("'''''P1'","'''''P2'","'''''P3'","'''''P4'","'''''P5'") -
						SYS$TOOLS:PAGE_PRINTER_BATCH.COM
$ EXIT
================================================================================
$!  PAGE_PRINTER_BATCH.COM
$!
$SET PROCESS/PRIOR=3
$SET DEF '''''P5'
$ext=F$LOC(".",P1)
$IF ext .EQ. F$LEN(P1) THEN GOTO ne
$P6=F$EXT(0,ext,P1)
$t=F$TIM()
$P6=F$EXT(12,2,t)+F$EXT(15,2,t)+F$EXT(18,2,t)+F$EXT(21,2,t)+"__"+P6
IF F$LEN(P6) .GT. 39 THEN P6=F$EXT(0,39,P6)
$t=P6+".TMP"
$f=P1
$GOTO fd
$ne:f=P1+".PS"
$t=P1+".TMP"
$fd:P2=" "+P2+" "
$P3=" "+P3+" "
$OPEN/READ s '''''f'
$OPEN/WRITE o '''''t'
$ES=0
$w1:READ/END_OF_FILE=ew1 s l
$WRITE o l
$IF F$EXT(0,10,l) .NES. "%%EndSetup" THEN GOTO w1
$ES=1
$ew1:IF ES .NE. 1 THEN GOTO e
$ffp=0
$flp=0
$wi=1
$w2:READ/END_OF_FILE=ew2 s l
$cf:IF F$EXT(0,13,l) .NES. "% DefineFont:" THEN GOTO nf
$wf:WRITE o l
$READ/END_OF_FILE=ew2 s l
$IF F$EXT(0,2,l) .EQS. "RP" THEN GOTO cw
$IF F$EXT(0,1,l) .NES. "%" THEN GOTO wf
$GOTO cf
$nf:IF F$EXT(0,7,l) .EQS. "%%Page:" THEN GOTO cp
$IF F$EXT(0,11,l) .NES. "%%DOC$Page:" THEN GOTO cw
$cp:IF ffp .EQS. 1 THEN GOTO clp
$IF F$LOC("'''''P2'",l) .NES. F$LEN(l) THEN GOTO sw
$wi=0
$GOTO w2
$sw:ffp=1
$IF P2 .EQS. P3 THEN flp=1
$wi=1
$GOTO cw
$clp:IF flp .EQS. 1 THEN GOTO ew2
$IF F$LOC("'''''P3'",l) .NES. F$LEN(l) THEN flp=1
$cw:IF wi .EQ. 1 THEN WRITE o l
$GOTO w2
$ew2:wi=0
$w3:READ/END_OF_FILE=ew3 s l
$IF F$EXT(0,12,l) .EQS. "EndDVC$PSDoc" THEN wi=1
$IF wi .EQ. 1 THEN WRITE o l
$GOTO w3
$ew3:CLOSE s
$CLOSE o
$'''''P4'/DELETE '''''t'
$EXIT
$e:WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "e!"
$CLOSE s
$CLOSE o
$EXIT

re: 1190.46

If not alreasdy done, it might be useful to enter 1190.46 as a topic in 
closet::document.

The October Ed Service Catalogue has a form right inside the front cover 
that enables you to remove yourself from the distribution list.  Don't
forget to take advantage of this opportunity to reduce Digital's costs by 
sending the form back, removing yourself from this distribution list.

Dave

    
    	Why does every employee need a copy of the Annual Report?
    
    	Why does any employee need one proactively sent to him?  If
    	he is in the stock plan or is a stockholder I can see that.
    	But why send this to every employee?
    
    	On top of that, some of it is printed on glossy paper, precluding
    	me from throwing it in the recycle bin.
    
    ****
    
    	Why do I still get copies of Competitive Sales Update?  I thought
    	the employee profiles we filled out would stop the flow of unwanted
    	publications.  Many did stop coming to me.  But not Competitive
    	Sales Update.  My whole group gets it, and most of us religiously
    	dump it into the proprietary waste bin (Digital internal use only...)
    
    	Joe Oppelt

>      <<< Note 1190.49 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Save time -- see it my way." >>>

    
>    	Why does every employee need a copy of the Annual Report?

They don't. Certainly I've never seen one, and I've been an employee
for 3+ years. In the UK we get the UK annual report, in the US I 
guess you get the corporate one. I assume you were referring to the
corporate report in your note. If UK employees get away without receiving
a copy, maybe it sets an example for the rest of the company?

It's the same with any distribution list. The publication should
be sent to the intended readership, and those who receive it should
be able to remove themselves quickly and easily if they don't want further
copies. It saves Digital money and gives trees a break.

How long is it going to be before this simple concept becomes reality?

	Craig

    It is a requirement of the SEC that shareholders receive the Annual
    Report of a company with the proxy card and proxy statement.  So if
    Digital is holding any shares for you in any of the many plans, past
    and present, you are getting that Annual Report to make an informed
    judgment as shareholders.  And don't forget to vote your shares.

    RE .49 -.51 But I get TWO!! One as an employee,and another as
    a shareholder. Now granted, it's pretty, but I think something
    a bit more austere might convince serious investors that we
    really do mean to cut the waste. 

>    RE .49 -.51 But I get TWO!! One as an employee,and another as
>    a shareholder. 

Are you sure you get one as an employee?  I never have.  I do get two
now: one as an employee-stockholder from the normal employee purchase plan,
and another because of shares I have in a brokerage IRA account.
We went through this a few years ago when people were getting two
for being in both employee plan stockholders and ESOP stockholders.
Legal (SEC and IRS, for example) requirements can make it hard to 
separate such categories.

- tom]

    All employees do NOT get the annual report.  I believe only employees
    who own digital stock on a magic date get a copy.  If you take the
    money and run (sell your employee stock plan stock DEC 2 and JUN 2) you
    don't get the annual report.
    
    I haven't got one in years.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

>    If you take the
>    money and run (sell your employee stock plan stock DEC 2 and JUN 2) you
>    don't get the annual report.


	No - I have for 8 years sold ALL my stock on June 1 and DEC 1 and
	I still get the bloody thing......  

	Angeline

    The Oct 29 issue of Competitive Sales Update comes with a form that
    must return in order to remain on the hardcopy distribution list. Some
    Progress!
    JR

>              <<< Note 1190.55 by TPWEST::JOVAN "in Her image" >>>
>	No - I have for 8 years sold ALL my stock on June 1 and DEC 1 and
>	I still get the bloody thing......  

Look closely at the address label on the envelope and see if you can decode
any special cues.
Do you get a proxy card with it?  That will have a number indicating
how many shares the proxy represents.
Maybe you own some unexercised stock options, or are still enrolled
in some non-mainstream ownership plan?

Like ESOP, maybe, if you never sold those shares?

RE: .49-.51

I own DEC stock and, therefore, DEC is required by law to send me a copy of
the annual report.  I receive one copy of the annual report, and that is the
one that shows up in my mail slot at work.  I do not get one mailed to me at
home.  My interpretation of this situation is that the system that mails out
annual reports to stockholders is smart enough to detect those who are also
employees and to route those through company internal mail, thereby saving
the expense of sending it through U.S. Mail.  I commend the company for that
particular cost-cutting move.

--PSW

Re: .56

�    The Oct 29 issue of Competitive Sales Update comes with a form that
�    must return in order to remain on the hardcopy distribution list. Some
�    Progress!
�    JR


	Right, except before that, I got three paper-printed requests to fill
out a profile, each threatening me with discontinuation of my subscription
to Competitive Sales Update if I didn't return it, and since I no longer
work for EIS and wanted my subscription canceled, I didn't return them, yet
I have continued to receive CSU and when I called about the profiles, I was
told that the only way to get off the mailing list was quit.  I'm hoping my
current non-renewal will finally stop the flow of paper.


					--Doug