Conference 7.286::digital

	I believe this is, theoretically, figured in when deriving the amount
	you are reimbursed for business mileage. I doubt that there is any
	additional coverage. Nor should there be. Reimbursement for business
	use of ones personal car should be all inclusive in the mileage 
	amount. If you feel you are not being properly compensated you
	could ask the company to rent a car. Other options depend on what
	your understandings with management were about business use of your
	car when you took the job.

			Alfred

    
    
                    5000 = company miles
    		   x.225 = per mile reemburse
    		   ------
    	 	  $1125 = total remburse
    		- $1000 = repair
    		  ----- 
    		   $125 = profit to you
    
    Should the company really pay for repairs to your car when you have
    put 65K miles on it plus made $125 in company money?

    You gotta be kidding??  Maybe you could get it repainted, and DEC could
    pay for a share of that Too.  This is a joke, right?

   re .2


    
    
                    5000 = company miles
    		   x.225 = per mile reemburse
    		   ------
    	 	  $1125 = total remburse
    		- $1000 = repair
    		  ----- 
>    		   $125 = profit to you
>    
>    Should the company really pay for repairs to your car when you have
>    put 65K miles on it plus made $125 in company money?
>

 It seems that the $125 profit would also have to cover gas & maintenance.
    So, IF, gas cost $1/gallon (wishful thinking)

       then   5000 miles/40 mpg = 125 gal.

            therefore profit to you = $0 - normal maintenance costs.
   

    RE: .3 If I was kidding, I would not have written the note.
    
    RE: the others,
    
    If you really want to figure out how much it cost to drive a car,
    you have to figure in depreciation. Now, if you also look at an
    NADA book, you'll find out that your supposed to deduct for high
    milage. 
    
    The truth is, if you've ever tried to sell a car, that has high
    milage, no one really wants it, so the deduction is meaningless when
    you can't even find a buyer. I wonder how much that's worth.
    
    The component's of vehicle cost are :
    
    	Running expense:
    			Gasoline (@20mpg $1.30/gal, 15Kmiles)	$975
    			Normal maint- oil etc.			 200
    			Repairs					 500
    			Tires (assume 45K life, $75/tire avg)    100
    								------
    							subtot $1775
    	Depreciation:   average over 1st 3 years ==%50
    			for a $17,000car, that =$8500 /3=	2833
    
    	Fees:
    			Sales tax (1st year only) $750 /3       $250
    			License					  20
    			Registration				  40
    			Excise (375/1st, 250/2nd, 150 3rd)      ~250
    								-----
    								$560
    	
    	Insurance:
    
    			Massachusetts				$1200
    							---------------
    
    						Total           $6368/ year
    
    			6368/15,000= $.42/ mile
    
    And this was done for an average repair of $500/ year. 
    And normal depreciaition; as I said, if you can't sell it, depreciation
    goes way up. 
    
    For the first 3 years I've had the car the Manufacturer paid almost
    $2500 in covered repairs. (An intake manifold, computer and idle servo
    motor totaled about $2200 alone!). And these occurred on the extended
    warranty, that I had to pay extra for. 
    
    If the answer is, the repairs are figured into the milage, they
    aren't. So, (.1), if you think your making a profit on your milage, your 
    only deluding yourself. 
    
    
    The bottom line is, either pay for reality or provide other means of
    transportation. 
    
    Renting a car is entirely impractical. 
    
    Of course, your milage may vary, but I believe the figures are typical. 
    
    George

>    The bottom line is, either pay for reality or provide other means of
>    transportation. 
 
	So request other means of transportation. Or ask your boss to. If
	DEC isn't paying you enough for the use of your car don't use it
	for business.
   
>    Renting a car is entirely impractical. 

	So take a copter plant to plant. :-)

	Reality is that no one expects to make money from mileage. It's
	expected to cover costs that you would not have if you didn't
	use your car. For reality remove all the costs in .5 that you
	would still have if you didn't make business trips for DEC. Then
	calculate the cost per mile.

			Alfred
 

    
    The fact that you were sold a lemon ($2500 in repais for first three
    years) is your bad luck -- not Digital's.
    

    
    At this point in time, we're lucky to have job(s) with Digital,
    let alone expense reimbursements of any sort.

   re .8
   
   Oh cut me a break from this doom and gloom stuff. Digital is a business, It
   has has associated expenses (including those individually incurred on it's
   behalf by it's employees) and has associated revenues. It relys upon its
   employees to maintain a relationship between Expenses and revenue, by
   contributing to the development, manufacture, sale and support of it's
   products. In return for their efforts, the employees can reasonably expect
   salary, health and other benefits, and Job Security. Digital's high regard
   for it's employee has show that it places a high value on Job Security as
   shown in the "Package" being offered to those being encouraged to leave the
   corporation. Luck doesn't come into it.
   
   The only thing that saddens me, is that this attitude seems to grow in the
   Corporation. A year ago, when Wang was on a real downturn, I was chatting
   with some DEC marketeers. THeir attitude to Wang's state was "Doom and
   Gloom - we will be next, and there is nothing that we can do." Rubbish!
   This is the time for innovative thinking (and hard work). While the
   industry is down in General, our Mass is enough to take us through a lot
   that would crush smaller companies. Wang's state, for example, is a good
   opportunity to start developing a more extensive suite of Wang Migration
   tools and integration products, ready to pick up the Wang Customer Base...
   
   I was shocked the other day, when I saw the Evening TV news the day that
   the quarterly results came out.  Jack Smith (Senior VP)'s  tone of voice
   was almost apologetic, whereas Bill Gassman (Networks person) when
   interviewed was cheery and optomistic.
   
   Fire the pessimists, Hire the optomists, it is the only way that we can
   even get into the right mind set for surviving...
   
   q
   

    Re: .-1
    
    I agree wholeheartedly.  I feel no more 'lucky to have a job' than I
    feel entitled to it.  Neither sentiment is accurate for me.  I have a
    job at Digital because I earn it, every day.  That's why I get that
    blue pay stub every thursday.  There isn't any luck, nor entitlement
    involved.
    
    tim
    

    
    Re .8
    
    No "gloom or doom" intended.  Simply realism.  With lots of peers
    being offered "the package", however, I DO feel lucky.  Sure I also
    feel I "earn" my blue stub each week, but that doesn't mean I think
    it's fair to expect a handout from DEC for car repairs.  Having
    a car plan is more of a privilege than an entitlement, in my opinion.
    Just because I buy suits for work doesn't mean I can stick the bill
    on Digital...
    
    

    Yo, moderators, this note needs a title change.
    
    Actually "luck" is the naive perspective.  Neither statement is true:
    I am lucky to be employed by Digital.
    Digital is lucky to employee me.
    
    Back to the fundamentals of the employee-employer relationship.  It is
    based on common self-interests.  Over some time frame, the employer
    demands some performance and the employee demands compensation.
    
    The business environment changes, companies that refuse to change
    become ex-companies, employees that refuse to change become
    ex-employees.
    
    Luck (and altruism) has nothing to do with it.

    Boy, did this note take a left turn somewhere or what???
    
    Let me reprhase what I was asking...
    
    If my employer requires that I do something and it costs more than the
    employer will reimburse me for, is this the way it should be?
    
    In my situation, I am making up the difference, out of my pocket,
    because I feel the job is worth it to me. I have done this for years. 
    And I will continue, however, it doesn't mean I can't raise the issue. 
    
    I like to deal with facts, and then make a decision based on those
    facts. The facts (or costs), in my case are stated a few notes back. 
    
    Perhaps my calculations are way off. If someone can show different
    costs, or even that the average costs are different, that would be
    helpful. If my costs are above average than I accept that. 
    
    But at $1.45 a gallon....
    
    Maybe the other problem is that I'm from Massataxachusetts. Costs here
    seem to have risen pretty fast.
    
    George

Your employer is not morally or legally required to reimburse ANY of your 
business expenses.  You always have the option of using the "unreimbursed
business expense" category on your income tax return.  Then it's simply your
problem to convince the IRS that it's a legitimate deduction.

-dave

The "unreimbursed business expense" category only allows you to deduct those
unreimbursed expenses that are more than some extremely large percentage of
your income.

I.E., it is basically useless.

re .14, etc.  What follows are costs to run a generic station wagon in MA... 

Life expectancy of car: 130,000 miles, annual 15,000 miles.  Life
expectancy is based on a history of only two cars, and 15K miles a 
year is based on my driving from the last couple years.

		Cost			Per mile
	Car	$15,000			  11.5  (cost of generic station wagon)
	Maint.  $   800 (annual)	   5.3  (inc. tires, oil, repairs, etc.,
						 first 50,000 miles of my car)
	Ins.	$ 1,200			   8.0  (no surcharges, etc.)
	Gas	$   750			   5.0	(25 MPG, $1.25/gal "fleet average")
	Tax/Reg.$   150			   0.1  (based on my 3 year old car)
					------
					  29.9� per mile to operate.

We get 22.5�/mile, and the government allows 26�/mile.  If you remove insurance
and registration, the expense winds up being 21.8�/mile, though since there's a 
low mileage insurance discount insurance can't necessarily be removed from the
formula as a non-distance related expense.

The longer you keep the car, the cheaper it usually becomes.  But unless
you're driving a $200 junker, making money off reimbursements is a joke.  
And no, I don't buy the argument that the insurance would have to be paid
anyway.  

And I know I didn't figure depreciation based on book value.  Instead I figured
depreciation based on running the car into the ground before replacing it, 
which I consider more legitimate when figuring the cost of the equipment.

    Actually, by publishing this as a policy, my employer, Digital is
    morally and legally required to reimburse my business expenses...
    
     Digital reimburses employees for actual and reasonable expenses
     incurred while conducting company business.  The Company only
     reimburses expenses incurred personally by the employee or
     expenses incurred by the employee for other Digital and
     non-Digital individuals on matters directly related to Company
     business.  Employees are expected to use good judgment when
     ...  (Digital Policies and Procedures 5.11)

    re .19
    
    Good, in theory, but digital does not execute its stated policies.
    
    As an example, see the recently distributed handbook "Digital and You",
    which has a date of, "revised June 1990, so I assume it is current
    policy.  See page 28, right hand column, last three parahraphs.
    These three paragraphs sound like the company really cares about
    attracting and retaining quality employees.  It is nothing but crap.
                                           
    One really must wonder about a company which would publish one policy
    and conduct business contrary to that published policy.  Would they
    do the same to customers?  This topic could be a separate note, no,
    notesfile in itself.

  re .15

> Your employer is not morally or legally required to reimburse ANY of your 
> business expenses.  You always have the option of using the "unreimbursed
> business expense" category on your income tax return.  Then it's simply your
> problem to convince the IRS that it's a legitimate deduction.

  Well, actually, I believe the IRS fine print says that you may _not_ deduct
  "unreimbursed business expenses" normally reimbursed by your employer. For
  example, if you choose not to file an expense voucher, you're S.O.L.

  /Petes

re: 1152.16

>The "unreimbursed business expense" category only allows you to deduct those
>unreimbursed expenses that are more than some extremely large percentage of
>your income.

Not quite. THe expenses are included with the "miscellaneous" deductions that 
are subject to a 2% of AGI deductible. It depends on other deductions, not only 
business expenses.

>I.E., it is basically useless.

For most people.

    re. .17.
    
    The numbers look right to me for true cost of ~$.29/mile or so.  The
    issue really boils down to one of what rate of reimbursement is
    reasonable.  IF the government for tax purposes allows $.25 or so, it
    beats me why we don't match it as a matter of policy, current expense
    constraints excepted.  As for reimbursement for repairs, the mileage
    charge should cover this.

re: 1152.23

Several years ago, DEC announced (in written form) that we would lag the IRS 
rate by no more than a DEC fiscal year. For example if the IRS changes its 
allowed rate in December 1990, it would then apply at DEC in July 1991.

As I recall, we did this for one year then "forgot" about the policy.

This has become more onerous because of the 2% floor on miscellaneous deductions
and not being able to deduct unless you itemize.

    Time to re-cap;
    
    The first argument, regarding repairs outside of warranty (because of
    excess miles driven for work), I will conceed, should be covered in the
    milage reimbersements. 
    
    The second argument, is the present reimbersement adequate? I think not. 
    It seems that the actuall running expenses for most people is around
    $.30. (even in my case, if I average the expense over 20K instead of
    15K, the expense drops from about $.40 to $.32). 
    
    So, now that we're generally in agreement, when does the rate go up???
    
    8^)
    
    
    George

    
    Isn't it based on the current IRS value? I was under the impression
    that anything over that would be taxed and are we sure we want to get
    into that?
    
    If you're doing enough driving to cause excessive repairs than the
    solution isn't to increase the reimbersement but instead provide either
    plan A or plan B.
    
    -Ray