| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1076.1 | How it works in engineering | ULTRA::PRIBORSKY | All things considered, I'd rather be rafting. | Tue Apr 10 1990 19:02 | 23 |
| The reality of this is that any equipment from a non-DEC vendor is a
negative cash flow. Unless you have a productivity case, it's pretty
hard to justify purchasing capital equipment from any outside vendor.
This is especially true when that outside vendor is our primary desktop
competitor. Every machine they sell is one we didn't.
In DEC, right now, you have to make a case to your financial analyst
and then to your Vice President, who must ultimately sign the Capital
Appropriation Request form for such a purchase.
It *is* an uphill battle.
The battle can be won. (I have personal knowledge of several.)
Tony
Who's fighting the battle right now.
P.S. I have two Mac's at home. I've been using them in my old job for
nearly three years. Now that my project has been cancelled, and I'm on
to a new project, I'm going through this at this very minute. I expect
to fight for it, since I'm very sensitive to DEC's posture on this
right now. I have the support of my new manager, so that is a help
(Thanks Doug).
|
| 1076.2 | | ULTRA::PRIBORSKY | All things considered, I'd rather be rafting. | Tue Apr 10 1990 19:17 | 8 |
| Now for my gut feeling about the field's posture on this:
From my previous life (admittedly, it was the mid-70's) the field is
capital poor. To plant a Mac on every person's desk may very well
consume the unit's entire capital budget. That's the same reason you
don't see workstations on everyone's desk. It is my impression that
most VAX machines in field offices are in fact rotational inventory,
and are subject to being sold.
|
| 1076.3 | What about all those IBM PC's? | SMAUG::GUNN | MAILbus Conductor | Tue Apr 10 1990 20:09 | 13 |
| On my travels around the Greater Maynard Area I see a number of IBM
PC's sitting on various desks. So, since the "powers that be" agreed to
the purchase of these desk top devices from our Big Blue rival I don't
see why anyone should have "theological" objections to Macintosh's.
Finding the money to buy them is a different question.
The field seems always to been starved for equipment but I would expect
that each ACT should at least be planning to get Mac's for
demonstrating your product and ALL-IN-1 MAIL for Macintosh, in which I
have a passing interest.
Ian Gunn
NaC/MAILbus Product Management
|
| 1076.4 | NAS is a good thing. NAS is a good thing. NAS is | STLACT::MOSER | | Tue Apr 10 1990 21:10 | 34 |
| A few comments:
- The ACT's do have them (at least in St. Louis)
- Why should I get a Mac for real $$ and pay for software when I can get
VAXen (superior in my estimation) for 30 cents on the dollar (funny money at
that!) and all the software it can eat for nothing. I don't buy the
productivity argument because I would hope that most sales/sales support
folks (those whom you seem to be targeting) should already be computer
literate and therefore unlikey to require the interface of the Mac. Once a
command language interface is mastered, I would argue that it is *more*
productive.
- If PCSG(?) feels this is such a problem why don't they belly up and put a
few hundred out in select field locations as well as providing software and
support
- I would be more concerned about our collective lack of UNIX experience
before I would spend a lot of time worrying about Mac's.
- Yes there ought to be some awareness of these products but wouldn't it make
more sense for PCSG to carefully target candidates in each district and then
provide training and equipment on that basis, as opposed to expecting folks
to fund the gear and training themselves on a random basis??
- Perhaps PCSG ought to push through a joint sales arrangement so that we
*can* sell Macs directly. This would alleviate much of the problems,
especially if we can source software in some kind of bulk way. Once again
I nominate PCSG to lead the charge.
- I'll expect a status report in the near future... You've got a lot to get
going on... :-)
/mlm
|
| 1076.5 | My thoughts.. | FASDER::AHERB | | Tue Apr 10 1990 23:27 | 25 |
| Ahem...
I work with sales folks and, while I believe they should understand
what they are selling, learning DCL (or Shell/Unix) is not what I
consider the best use of their time. Sales needs tools that are easy to
learn, easy to use, and provide maximum productivity. It's wrong enough
perhaps that we put VT100's on sales people's desks and expect them to
convince our customers of the merits of "windows".
Sales people need the best tools available to maximize their
effectiveness regardless of the source (phones, computers, ease of
product info access, etc). Without the tools, they depend more on sales
support who are eternally in short supply.
At work, I have a VS where I need it to help me do my job. At home, I
have an Apple ][ and a MAC (my own expense). Moving from a VT100 to a
][ is a heck of a lot easier than moving to a VS or DS (or MAC for that
matter). in my opinion. My son has an Amiga. I wish I had the time to
learn them all but I don't and doubt Sales in the field does either.
Bottom line is the "box" that provides the best tools to do the job at
hand is the best box for that person. Perhaps a better question is why
we continue to give our people in the field VT100s regardless of
whether MAC, IBM (clone), etc is the best tool for increasing our
sales.
|
| 1076.6 | Be creative if you want a MAC ! | AUNTB1::WARNOCK | Todd Warnock @CBO | Tue Apr 10 1990 23:48 | 41 |
| re: .4
PCSG *is* working on a plan (and it's *just a plan at this point!*) to
get MACs into the hands of select field people. If we're going to sell
MAC integration products, we've got to have MACs.
It is real money to buy them, but let me suggest an alternative - it's
kind of like funny money...
During a conversation I had with the Apple District Manager here, we
agreed that we needed, desperatly, each other's hardware (they need
VAXes for some work they do as well.) Also, they desperatly need to
understand VMS and related products. As you might expect, Apple can't
just order VMS machines for servers ("...we have MAC Cxi's that are
superior servers, and we can buy them for 30 cents on the dollar, and
funny money at that !... :-)) My suggestion was to swap hardware
(loaner stuff - like a microVAX or VS2000) for a "loaner" MAC... Fine
with them (they also offered to perm. swap a MAC II for an old VS2000 w/ 4MB
- too much damn paperwork on our end though...so the VS2000 sits...)
Also, they agreed to give - yes - GIVE - us a MAC of of choosing for
equal dollars in training "credits." My offer to teach VMS Utilities
and Commands for 8-16 Apple folks (1 week) was worth a MAC IIcx.
DEC's cost ? A week of my time (in Sales Support) - almost free. Even
at PSS rates of $125/hr, that's $5000 - FOR A MAC IIcx! In there
eyes, they got 16 people in a course that costs $1295/each!
Granted, this was offered by us and Apple, and then, from elsewhere, an
SE appeared. We haven't done anything else yet - but DEC and Apple
though it was a good idea...
My point ? If you want a MAC, call your local Apple rep - they've
loaned us stuff before for demos, are always (here) glad to help, and
will probably be willing to work out "creative" ways to get your own!
Todd
(By the way, we - as DEC employees - can buy MACs at the same price at
Apple employess through the Apple Employee Purchase Plan...
|
| 1076.7 | MACS at ZKO? | CLOVE::SILVERBERG | Mark Silverberg DTN 264-2269 TTB1-5/B3 | Wed Apr 11 1990 08:44 | 5 |
| I believe the latest MACweek rag listed the top 200 MAC sites, and
the "ZKO SITES" made the list with over 900 MACs on site.
Mark
|
| 1076.8 | On every fourth desk? Hah! | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Apr 11 1990 08:57 | 5 |
| re .7
Obviously caused by free subscription card exaggeration.
/john
|
| 1076.9 | Field persons comments | WILARD::JENNINGS | DEC_End_of_the_Innocence | Wed Apr 11 1990 19:26 | 82 |
| Cross posted from VMS FOR MAC Conference, will also be posted in
Marketing Conference.
-< A view from the field >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan,
The subject matter at hand is an interesting one. Let me
relate to you some first hand experiences in this area.
In CT we have a Macintosh IIx with 4mb of memory, a rented
monitor(b/w), monitor card and ethernet card. When my peer Dan Kehoe
(Mr Quick Pic himself) put together this configuration we did not
know about the portrait monitor announcement. we wanted a third
party monitor and Enet card. This meant an alternate expenditure
of $3,000 that got lost at the AREA office. So we are renting from
GE RENTS (1-800-GERENTS) the monitor and cards. Exclusive of freight
(which we argued of the bill, GE failed to quote this) it is costing
us 150.00 a month. We are expensing this cost till we order a portrait
monitor and card and cable from APPLE. Should you need to rent GE
RENTS is giving Digital 50% off its rates as a corporate account.
Our plans were to use the Mac as a publishing tool, get Pagemaker,
adobe illustrator and use ALISA as a File and Print Server to an
LN03R. Reality is is that Dan spends more time now with Interleaf,
DECwrite, CDA and Imaging his forte. The Mac is now sitting in our
Trumbull location where I plan to do the following things with
it. (time is my problem, I support 65 End User Reps in CT who probably
have about 400 accounts they serve), build a demo platform that
will demonstrate:
1. CDA Converter Library Mac to PC to DDIF etc.
2. IFT DEC LanWORKS for Macintosh
3. IFT ALL-IN-1 for Macintosh (whenever that gets out of user interface
committee)
4. ALISA, TSSnet
5. Create presentations
6. PCSA 3.0 with ALISA, and #2
7. Provide portable demo capability to bring the technology to the
customer (like APPLE does)
8. Provide demo capability to those customers in the southern part
of CT who feel that the Farmington ACT is the other side of the
universe (in reality its 60-70-90 miles away for them)
I agree that the only way to demo the technology and understand
the Macintosh is to use it. Prior to this I was a voyeur of Mac
to VAX. Customers see thru that veil quickly.
I was also part of a selling effort that sold 14 MicroVAX's to APPLE's
Eastern Operational Organization for APPLE Field and Executive Briefing
Centers to use for Digital/APPLE demonstration capability. They
are using these units extensively in my sales territory.
I really think we should be selling Macintosh's (heresy!!). I also
heard an interesting story about how we asked APPLE to carry a MVAX
in their product line but they suffered from the industry standard
aNIH syndrome with that idea.
Quite a few of my sales partners wish we were selling Macs instead
of DECstation PCs. My workstation counterparts look at me with daggers
when I mention it however until I calm them down and remind them
what a nice price/performance oriented Ultrix Server with PACER
they can sell.
Whenever I demo on a Mac I have to EMPHASIZE that there is no SELLING
Agreement with APPLE. There is a fair amount of Paranoia in the
field selling trenches about this machine. I tried to arrange a
seminar of Digital and APPLE reps so we could educate one another
on each others technology. I was asked to cancel that internal seminar
by the powers that be. Too bad we might be selling more MVAX's as
Servers if we partnered there. It is my hope that we will announce
a marketing agreement next month in NYC but reality tells me different.
Getting Macs in the hands of key Integration Support Resources
is important. We must understand what we sell. We only use it a
few hours a week . Our customers use it 40+ hours a week and expect
their vendors to have thorough knowledge of multivendor technology.
Ed Jennings
CT District PC/Macintosh Integration Sales Support
|
| 1076.10 | Walk A Mile In Their Moccasins | MURFY::EARLY | Are we having FUN yet? | Wed Apr 11 1990 23:58 | 43 |
| re: -1
Ed -- excellent grass roots feedback on the issue. Good observations.
re: .0
If you want to understand the field perspective, spend some time with
the people in the field. Actually being there will teach you 10X more
than you'll learn from notes.
Things you might want to try:
Meet some local sales reps who will support you in the following
activity.
Walk into a field office (pick an office, any office) with an Apple
system of your choice. It doesn't need to be really far from the
"Greater Maynard Area", Burlington Mass would probably do. Dress
like a sales rep.
Put your Apple on a sales rep's desk (pre-arranged). Call the local
person in charge of providing "computes" (DIS) and explain to them
that you're a new DEC sales rep that just started in the office.
You were given a VT100 by the Sales Unit Manager to use, but
since you were an experienced MAC user, you couldn't see taking
about 5-6 steps back in time ... thus you brought in your own MAC
from home.
Smart person that you are, you know that it could be used to
interface to ALL-IN-1 and other local software packages, and
ask if you can get together with him/her to discuss adding
your Apple into the configuration.
I'm sure answers would vary all over the board, but in general, I'll
bet you'd not receive a warm welcome. You can go back to your normal
office (was it Littleton?) as soon as you succeed in getting our Apple
on the network, receiving mail, and doing other productive stuff.
You'd really learn a lot. I guarantee it.
/se
|
| 1076.11 | Some general comments | RBW::WICKERT | MAA USIS Consultant | Thu Apr 12 1990 01:29 | 49 |
|
A couple of comments on this:
1. If your primary job is building products for the Mac/VAX combo (like
your's is) or selling the beasts in an integrated solution than you
can make a good case for getting one. Very few sales reps or support
people actually are that dedicated (you know what I mean!) and still
spend most of their time selling VAX based products.
2. Field Service support. The life cycle support costs have to be
factored in.
3. Who's gonna manage and backup all these beasts? And don't tell me
they are sooooo simple the user can! Ask any large company about
the I.S. support staff they've been forced to put into place to
handle them and then tell my boss (I'm a I.S. Consultant in the
Southern States) we need more headcount to do it for our customers.
4. Do you have any idea how many desktop devices our OA staff has to
field questions on already? Our users couldn't care less if it's
made by DEC or if it's actually supported. They still expect
WPS+ to work perfectly and print screen to do exactly what it
does on a VT100. Our OA people spend a good deal of their time
tracking down DECmate and Pro and PC relate problems already and
these are with DEC products!
There is a strong push in the field to get as much hardware to the user
as possible. Locally this translates into DIS gearing up to supply boot
servers in the facilities so that users can purchase stripped down
workstations and will be able to rely on us for their system managment.
I don't have to train anybody (on the I.S. side) on this since we do it
now within the Data Center and therefore it's a manageable move and one we
can be aggressive with even in these times of low headcount.
Also keep in mind that applications are being developed inhouse to take
advantage of workstations and to us that means VAXes. The goal is to
move more and more of the applications currently running in the Data
Centers out to the facilities (either via dumb terminal access or
workstations) and it just isn't feasible to support more than one
platform.
So, while I agree getting Macs and PCs for learning and product
devlopment makes sense I don't agree it makes as much sense for general
desktop computing. You have to look far beyond the "PC" and get down to
the actually cost to the company and the benefit gained.
-Ray
|
| 1076.12 | The Mac has its place - | PIRU::GOETZE | Fear is an evil way to motivate people. | Thu Apr 12 1990 23:01 | 85 |
|
Background - I've owned a TRS-80, Apple II, PC, Mac, and parked a VAXstation,
DECstation and VT on my desk (not all simultaneouisly or in that order). I
really believe in the right tool for the job at hand. Commercial sales
support is my role.
I share Dan's (base note) concern for our viability in the still fast growing
desktop marketplace. I see on a day to day basis the (PC and Mac and Sun-
based) transformation of the customer's heart and mind: their desktop.
There will also always be those philosophers who say, "Well that's not
as it should be, so lets imagine an all-DEC world (with a token PC thrown in)
and remake ourselves in that mold." Are we trying to out-do IBM? We'll
never achieve that. In my mind the absence of a particular type of desktop
device blinds us to the reasons why customers prefer them at all. Of course
it also prevents us from being as familiar with the lingo as we need to be.
Look at all the prongs of the NAS desktop support strategy (MS-DOS,OS/2,
Ultrix,VMS,Macintosh): we are getting much better Ultrix exposure than
we've ever had, there's no shortage of VAX systems and even MS-DOS is
represented pretty well, even if it is in VAXmate/Tandy form. The OS/2
inexposure maps pretty well to our customer's experience and at least
the hardware is mostly there - getting memory and OS/2 s/w will happen slowly.
With virtually no Mac's in the field, we are avoiding internal acceptance
of NAS. That is, there are reasons to have Macs, even within Digital.
First off, there are things a Mac can do (with X amount of effort)
that you cannot do on a VAX (within the ballpark X amount of effort).
For instance, I've created in my off hours a library of clipart depicting
nearly all of our products. This is now being utilized worldwide as an
useful corporate resource. (It's called the Digital ARTlibrary). And
it was made entirely on a Mac. The reason it is so usable is that it
adheres to various standards like PostScript and EPS which are accepted
on many different platforms. And the best tool to create this kind of
PostScript-based illustration was (at the time) only available on the Mac.
There still is no tool on VMS as good as Adobe Illustrator for this type
of illustration. And so on, into desktop presentation software, 24/32 bit
color drawing software, etc. The Mac simply has an edge in some but
certainly not all areas. I have to admit, when it comes to VAXnotes
or Mail, building code or plinking databases, I'd rather use a VAXstation
and VMS. Why inhibit employee productivity in making their contribution?
Forcing someone to use a tool that is not the best (or even second best)
for the job will only impress people with the inflexibility of the
corporate atmosphere.
Secondly, there is a synergy that occurs when you put all the different
desktop devices together and let people use each one for the best purpose.
The NAS demo we have shows this off. Every platform has some tool or package
which just knocks the socks off of the others. Now take those award winning
results from the Mac, the PC, or the Unix hotbox and fit them together
on the VAX, along with its award winning components and their results.
We get a super-result, more than the sum of all the individual pieces.
But if we can't experience this internally, we'll continue to put together
just plain results.
Thirdly the more places and times we can demonstrate third party equipment
working alongside Digital equipment, the higher our credibility. And we
do a lot of demos outside the ACTs/DCCs (where the only Macs tend to be).
I believe we'd have customer's believing NAS a lot more with the most
common third party gear such as HP LaserJets, Sun workstations, Novell
servers etc. interoperating with our (just as fine, if not better) gear.
Frankly I don't think customers are impressed anymore with demos that
only take place on one vendor's equipment. They say, "Oh of course you
can do that, all the CPUs (or OS's) are the same type". That's not the
challenge that they face.
I have an interesting story to tell about tools and hiring people. The
Los Angeles Times used to have a policy of buying IBM PCs and IBM mainframes
only (for the most part - VAXes were accepted if free or imbedded in floor-
control systems). This was fine until recently when they went to hire some
graphic illustrators to start doing computer-based illustration. And they
interviewed artist after artist, without hiring anybody, because they
would almost all ask, 'where's your Mac? Why can't I use a Mac'. The Los
Angeles Times finally broke down and went to Apple to bought some. It's
not religion, it's the best tool for that job. And inside Digital we
have some places where the same needs exist, the same sense exists that
we are being prevented from accomplishing great things (art-wise) because
of this lack of an equal opportunity desktop.
"Equal opportunity desktop" means we'll be putting our products into the
sunlight of the free market (internally). Can they take the illumination?
If not, lets make them better so that they are the tool of preference,
rather than the tool of dictate.
erik goetze
|
| 1076.13 | Anent 1076.6 and others thus far - Nit Alert :-) | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum, DEC too! | Sun Apr 15 1990 14:37 | 28 |
| Before I get into my more serious comments on some of the replies
entered thus far, may I repeat the "nit alert" I put at the end of my
basenote?
Lesson #1 of Mac literacy is that it's spelled "Mac" and "Macintosh,"
:-) and **please, please** NOT "MAC" and "MACINTOSH" :-(.
I dunno where this compulsive acranymosity (sic:-) comes from -- could
it be a holdover from MIT's famed (but named pre-sensitivity-to-
sexism-in-language) "Project MAC" (from "Man And Computer") in the '60s
and '70s? Naww... Anyhow keep ya' hands *offa* that CAPS LOCK KEY,
please... :-) :-)...
Coming next: a series of replies, one per "note replied to," to
facilitate your use of the LAST NOTE READ key if you want to refer back
to the entire original...
FWIW, I'll probably be offline for the next few weeks, participating in
the runup to announcement. Have a good time in this discussion, "Do
The Right Thing," and continue to "Tell the Truth As You See It." I
expect to come back online in May and find a complete, consensus
solution. :-) :-)
Thanks, and thanks again to my colleague Jay Koutavas for the following
middle name:
Dan "What_Does_That_MAC_Acronym_Mean,_Anyhow?" Kalikow, LJO2
|
| 1076.14 | Anent 1076.4 - Mac interface, PCSG actions | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum, DEC too! | Sun Apr 15 1990 14:40 | 35 |
| I respectfully disagree with STLACT::MOSER's contention that those who
are computer literate are unlikely to require the interface of the Mac.
While it's true that those of us who ARE computer literate can easily
master (and HAVE!) the many command-driven interfaces provided by much
available character-cell software on both VAXen and MS/DOS PCs, that
shouldn't be used IMO as the major justification for the continued use
of such software for *all* tasks for new users. There is a good deal
of literature from impartial sources to the effect that Macintoshes are
used far more hours/day than PCs, and that Mac users know and use on
the average about twice as many applications as their MS/DOS siblings.
This advantage is based primarily on the interapplication consistency
that is enforced by the Mac user interface (aka the "Apple Thought
Police" by those who deny its utility :-).
There's certainly a place for CLIs in personal computing. This
includes Macs. There are third-party add-ons to the Mac OS that allow
the construction of macros, command abbrevs, and suchlike. There are
several advanced, UNIX-like SW development environments for the Mac.
..."PCSG... should belly up and put a few hundred (Macs) out in select
field locations..." Being just an Engineer buried deep in PCSG, I
cannot comment on the means to this desirable end. IMHO if it will
benefit the field, the field should bear (some|all) of this cost. Is
it normal at DEC for central engineering to subsidize the field (with
anything other than unlimited #s of copies of DEC SW or DEC-supplied
demo HW, that is)?
"Perhaps PCSG ought to push through a joint sales arrangement so that
we *can* sell Macs directly. ... source SW in the same kind of bulk
way. Once again I nominate PCSG to lead the charge."
This suggestion probably wasn't directed at me, since I'se just a
Engineer :-) with no policy portfolio. Nevertheless it has merit IMHO.
Any policy hackers care to comment here? Has this been/is this being
done?
|
| 1076.15 | Anent 1076.6 - Swapping Macs for VAXen | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum, DEC too! | Sun Apr 15 1990 14:42 | 11 |
| What a WONDERFUL idea, AUNTB1::WARNOCK! Let me add the thought that
Apple may well have a good deal of older Mac equipment, LaserWriter
model I's, etc., that they wouldn't want to use in their own sales
organization, but which could do great things if placed on a
Salesperson's desk in their nearby Strategic Ally's office. We, too,
must have older equipment that we don't want to show as the best we can
do *NOW* -- so, let it be a VAXshare server, or in general let it serve
to build up VMS expertise, amongst the Apple tech support folk!
Their "funny-money" must be colored just the same as ours -- funny! :-)
So, let's trade it...
|
| 1076.16 | Anent 1076.10 - Walking in the Field's moccasins | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum, DEC too! | Sun Apr 15 1990 14:44 | 31 |
| May I respectfully differ from your suggestions?
As I said in the basenote, MURFY::EARLY, I began being concerned with
this aparent IMO "Macs as non-PC" bias by talking with many, many folks
from the field who attended the field-test training for "DEC LanWORKS
for Macintosh." The preponderance of comments I've seen thereafter,
both in NOTES and in mail, has borne out those initial impressions. So
I don't feel that I've been in an ivory tower of notes, or isolated in
the backwater of LJO2.
Some observations on your scenario of showing up at a field office with
the Mac of my choice. Pardon me for my denseness, but were you
implying that using DEC LanWORKS for Macintosh I would NOT be able to
get my Mac on the network, sending and receiving VMS and (in future)
X.400 Mail, sharing VAX disk with VMS users and PCSA users, sharing VAX
PostScript printer queues with VMS and PCSA users, using my Mac as an X
Terminal and intermixing DECWindows apps with local Mac apps on the
same screen, using my Mac as a multi-LAT session VT320 terminal
emulator, accessing VMS RDB DataBases with CL/1 and (sold separately)
SQL Services for Macintosh? If that's what you were implying (irony
alert!!:-), you'd be mistaken -- because that's what I'd be able to
show the local person in charge of providing "computes" in that field
office.
Or am I missing something? I think I'd receive kinda a warm welcome
with this list of product functionality!
PS -- the above list was NOT exhaustive -- I just remembered that I
forgot to add the capability to make a Mac a full-fledged non-routing
DECnet node! Check me out, see if I forgot anything -- take a look at
the RANGER::NOTES$LIBRARY:VMS-FOR-MAC notesfile.
|
| 1076.17 | Anent 1076.11 - Using Macs (behind the scenes?) in Sales | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum, DEC too! | Sun Apr 15 1990 14:48 | 21 |
| May I observe that even if a rep is NOT engaged in selling the VAX/Mac
conectivity product set, they still might profit from having access to
a Mac/VAX combo in the field office? Reason: Mac-produced sales
materials look better and can be produced easier and more efficiently
by more folks with less training than other presentation- and
publication-oriented systems. If the prospect asks "How did you
produce these gorgeous slides?" you will be able to answer with a
straight face "With a Mac. I'm selling you a different solution here
(and here's where you differentiate your product-set from the VAX-Mac
product set's strengths); but when I want to do sales materials, I turn
to the DEC LanWORKS for Macintosh product because that's the best
toolset for that job."
I also respectfully disagree with your statement that I paraphrase here
as "the only reason to get Macs and PCs in the field is for learning
and product [I assume you mean sales support?] development. I don't
agree it makes as much sense for general desktop computing." IMHO,
general desktop computing -- as currently practiced on desks occupied
by MS/DOS or Mac operating systems -- is a viable and very broad-based
environment that we have to sell into. One tool is currently known as
PCSA rev 3.x; another will soon be DEC LanWORKS for Macintosh.
|
| 1076.18 | Anent 1076.12 - Inflexibility | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum, DEC too! | Sun Apr 15 1990 14:54 | 37 |
| Yeah, what he (Erik PIRU::GOETZE) said.
I'd add the qualification that IMO the corporation is not intentionally
(i.e., as a matter of policy) inflexible vis-a-vis Macs. It just works
out that way recently. It needs to be "re-worked-out."
I really like the notion of using the right tool for the job (Does
"Equal Opportunity Desktop" stand as a corollary of Do The Right Thing,
to wit: "Use The Right Tool"??). There's little more frustrating in
any work environment (and I've seen *too many* examples of this, all in
"other lives," to be sure!) than being FORCED to do things for no other
reason than "We've ALWAYS done it that way" or "That's the version we
sell; too bad if it's inefficient."
We have a real opportunity, as Erik points out, to use and demonstrate
a compelling synergy of many products, both desktop and computer-room,
selecting the best one for each job, and keeping them harmonious under
the NAS umbrella. We *should* flaunt it, 'cause ***DIGITAL has it
now!***
I would like to split a hair concerning Erik's urgings that we should
"make our tools better so they are the tool of preference, rather than
the tool of dictate." If Erik was implying that we should improve ALL
of our tools such that any user could happily use only DIGITAL-produced
tools for any job, this is unrealistic. (He probably didn't mean
that, given the rest of his note -- but I can't resist the opportunity
to further evolve my notion of the "equal opportunity desktop"...:-)
IMHO, we at DEC should improve those HW and SW tools that are
strategically central to our thrust, and integrate seamlessly with
those other aspects of the computing world that we have less chance of
dominating.
Note that I am *NOT* saying that we shouldn't improve, or use, our own
in-house tools, as appropriate in development and some field shops.
What I *am* saying, and I believe I speak for Erik on this too, is that
the criteria for tool choice should include cost-efficiency, broadly
construed.
|
| 1076.19 | Flexibility is a desired attribute | PIRU::GOETZE | Look out mama theres a white boat comin up the river... | Mon Apr 16 1990 01:31 | 13 |
| OK, I'll go along with that interpretation (1076.18).
One reason I said the "make tools better" line was that if we don't
make them better, there would be a gradual tendancy for folks to select
Macs due to superior presentation-making abilities (or whatever edge
you want to pick on) to the point where all the money spent on Macs
could have gone into making a better VMS/Ultrix tool for doing same.
IN the meantime (between the time Macs have edge and our products are
improved to negate that edge) there is plenty of business that we could
improve our odds on by using the right tool.
erik
|
| 1076.20 | ASIMOV:: or NODEMO::MARKETING NotesFile(s)... ? | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum, DEC too! | Mon Apr 16 1990 09:51 | 7 |
| Anyone know what's wrong at the moment with the abovementioned
notesfile? From at least RANGER::'s viewpoint, it's/they've been
offline with ACP errors since at least yesterday. If anyone knows
whom/where I should call or message to get the repair crew started,
I'd be grateful...
Dan_(who_has_other_replies_"burning_a_hole_in_his_directory"_:-)
|
| 1076.21 | More Mac More Often | SDOGUS::DEUTMAN | what me worry? | Mon Apr 16 1990 15:31 | 34 |
| Maybe the folks in VMS engineering could use some experience installing
software on the Mac: point, click, drag. Done. Instead of pounds
of manuals, /parameters ad nauseum, and oh it used to work that
way on version .x but we changed .y to work this way...
*flame off*
I bought a Mac 6 months ago after having been thouroughly trained
in DECwrite and Interleaf. I was giving many demos where people
asked for a comparison to the Mac environment. After I got my Mac,
I was much better able to answer their questions on the comparitive
strengths and weaknesses of the different products. And, since I
spoke from personal experience, my opinoins carried more weight.
Could I be more productive with a Mac on my desk? You bet! More
creative and artistic when producing sales support materials in
my job? No question. What I do now is just go down to the Mac we
have in the demo room, produce my stuff, and go home and print it
on my Laserwriter. (We haven't solved the Ethernet link, and print
server issues yet). We have also traded with Apple for a VAXstation.
We got the better deal: a IIx for a 2000... I've been in the business
for 20 years, and have worked on every kind of computer system,
but NONE offer the productivity, ease of use, and creativity
enhancement that the Mac does. Being a command line guru does not
enable you to create something out of nothing, i.e. if you don't
have the software on your machine, you aren't going to create spiffy
illustrations, slides, or other printed material no matter what
you do. Knowing the Mac's strengths and weaknesses makes for better
selling and using the machine in a DEC environment just makes sense
to me. I hope we do get some more Mac exposure/experience in this
company so we don't look too stupid when bombarded by questions
when the VMS services DEC Lanmarksmanagementblahblah for Mac finally
starts selling. (Can't we name it something simple and spiffy?)
Larry
|
| 1076.22 | Talkin' ain't Walkin' | MURFY::EARLY | Are we having FUN yet? | Mon Apr 16 1990 22:50 | 82 |
| re:
Note 1076.16 RANGER::KALIKOW
I continue to differ in my view. Your comment "talking with many, many,
folks from the field" is good. Shows you're integrating the field's
perceptions into your strategy.
However, if I'm not mistaken, you were asking questions about why
people at DEC don't have Apple computers on their desks as a part of
your original note. If that is still of interest, I continue to submit
that regardless of the long laundry list of functionality this will
allegedly provide, I think that MOST field offices would not make it
easy for you to hook up an Apple to do your work.
You would be dealing with an overworked system manager, responsible for
too many users, in charge of too few computes to get the job done, and
he/she would NOT be at all interested in making their life more
complicated by hooking up some foreign computer to the network. I don't
care how easy you claim it will be. These folks have learned over the
years that everyone they deal with tells them "it'll be a piece of
cake ... no problem". In the end, they are the ones stuck with managing
it. If it becomes a headache it's their problem. If it really IS a
piece of cake, they would probably consider themselves lucky.
I would also submit that talking to sales reps will not provide you
with that impression. They are interested in your product(s) and
strategies regardless of whether or not they can make use of them.
That's because the need to sell them. It would be great if they could
use them too, but that isn't reality.
Most field reps are lucky if they can get in and check their mail
without it taking all day because of the number of users on their local
VAX. They have little time (or need) to be messing around with X.400
links and all the other features you mentioned.
Not trying to burst your bubble, pal. But when it comes to equipment
wealth:
Marlboro is to Beverly Hills as
The tyupical Field Office is to Bangladesh
A final admission of "Ivory Tower" on my own:
I'm still "associated with" the field as part of a DCC, but have not
physically worked out of a field office for 6-8 months. Prior to that,
it had been 3� to 4 years since I worked in a field office. My most
recent experience was logging into an account that was set up for me in
my last field job and getting the welcoming message "Welcome To
(System) VMS Version 4.3". My stint prior to that, it was very common
to try to log on to get your mail and get a message from the MICOM
switch that said:
Busy
Wait 32?
This meant that their were 31 people ahead of you waiting for the MICOM
switch to "Beep" you and tell you that a port was free and you could
log in. You had about 3-5 minutes to try to log in. God forbig you went
to the bathroom. You'd come back to your desk and see a message that
said:
Busy
Wait 32?
GO
Timeout Period Expired
And you were logged off only to try to get back in again and find a
similar message with an equal or longer number of people in the queue.
A lot of my impressions are the result of my prior experience in a
field office. Maybe things have changed. Only REAL field people could
tell you for sure.
/se
|
| 1076.23 | If there is a valid need? | DNEAST::WIGHT_BRIAN | | Tue Apr 17 1990 15:06 | 31 |
| Hi;
As a owner of a Macintosh at home, an operator of a Microvax II
GPX here at work I would just like to make a few comments.
Here at our plant at ASO and I assume at other customer reference
sites there is the same policy of only DEC equipment being used within
the 4 walls. Yet often we have various executives from various Aerospace,
Chemical, Banking, and other high tech company's coming to our plant to
observe the way we do our business.
These company's (I won't name them) names keep popping up in the
major Macintosh Trade magazines as major users of Macintosh's. Wouldn't
it be a good idea to be able to show our customers how we can can integrate
Macintosh's with our equipment? I am not saying get Macintosh's if there
is no need for them. But if there is a real problem that can be fixed
by the use of these computers why not use them.
In a previous reply someone said that you can get an External Vendors
equipment if a valid need exist's. In my experience here, there seems to
be a prejudice about doing this. I believe I have even seen a memo
somewhere from a person quite high in the company that said that they
frown upon buying non DEC equipment.
Just some thoughts..
Brian
|
| 1076.24 | Real Issues Real Solutions? | SDOGUS::DEUTMAN | what me worry? | Tue Apr 17 1990 15:07 | 47 |
| re -.1
I would like to ask a couple of questions:
If we don't have network/system managers in DEC who understand
multi-vendor connectivity and are able to integrate PCs and Macs
into our network *easily*, then how can we expect the sales force
to march hither and yon extolling the virtues of PCSA???? With the
negative reinforcement of "Oh we can't do that *here*", how can
the sales force have any confidence selling our "solution"?
If we don't have sales support folks literate in Mac and PC useage,
how can they intelligently carry on conversations with customers
that do know a C: prompt from an icon?
If we have real world business problems (like every other company
on the face of the planet), why don't we get the *best* solution?
How many sales offices are actually using the All-In-1 for sales tracking
system? Is it because it isn't really the best way to do things?
If we have a requirement to generate decent presentation graphics,
why don't we get PCs and Macs hooked up and used? Have you ever
tried to draw anything with the pitiful tools in DECwrite? Lines
don't line up and there's no zoom so it's trial and error. No rotation
of text or graphics, so there goes a lot of creative ideas out the
window...
Point being if there is a problem to be solved - get the best solution
and quit trying to force fit hardware/software combinations which
are overpriced and overly difficult to use on computer illiterate
folks with not much inclination to spend weeks learning arcane computer
commands, switches, parameters, etc.
Just because we make a lot of very fine hardware and software doesn't
mean that we can solve *every* problem out there (even our own).
I don't care if I can get a VAX/DEC station at "transfer" cost,
if it doesn't do what I need it to do, it might as well hold my
boat in place while I fish. On the other hand, if it is the best
solution, why settle for a "mere" PC when I can have all that *power*
on my desktop?
These are real world questions that real world people ask everyday.
We should listen. We should sell what they need.
We should do the right thing.
Do we?
|
| 1076.25 | Anent 1076.22 - More opinion from the field | RANGER::KALIKOW | Wedged? Try *Iambic* parameters! | Tue Apr 17 1990 15:21 | 56 |
| Apropos of previous notes wondering about the Field's "true" feelings
on this matter, I offer the following text, excerpted from a mail
message to me. I'm posting this with the author's permission, on the
condition that I remove all indications that might trace it to its
origin. Where I have omitted or substantially altered the original
text I will so indicate with []s.
I realize that ONE message does not characterize the Field's "true"
feelings on any matter (as if there IS anything like one set of such
feelings :-). Alternate realities are of course welcome to present
themselves in this space. Congruent realities, also! :-)
===== begin bowdlerized text =====
I work in [...], doing [...] sales support [for a major segment of
DEC's business in that area]. I specialize in networking, office
automation, and electronic publishing. I bought [a fully-equipped,
recently-released Mac II model, with lots of ROM and disk, a
PostScript-supporting Laser Printer, and a scanner. With *PERSONAL*
funds]. Real top-of-the-line stuff! I trashed my [disparaging comment
about DEC personal computer removed.] Now -- I spent $15K, got a 30%
discount on the street (same as the "Employee Purchase Hot Deal").
What could I get for $15K in DEC equipment? "NOT MUCH". And useful
software? [Disparaging comment about DEC SW removed.] Oh well, I'm
happy, and I can get some useful stuff done at home now. Heck, I
don't even dial in to the office VAX -- I can wait to get into work.
At work, I have a VAXstation 3100 on my desk (BTW, it's from rotational
inventory and it's been sold). I know what these things are good for:
running VMS software. What most people don't realize -- (excuse me if
I'm preaching to the choir :-) -- is that a COMPUTER is only good for
running software which SOLVES A PROBLEM. People usually buy the
machine first, 'cause some salesperson talked them into it -- then they
wonder what software to run.
I wholly support your effort to bring some kind of Mac literacy to DEC!
The problem is, whenever I start extolling the Mac's benefits, ease of
use etc., I have to rein in my enthusiasm, because I feel the bad vibes
from the sales force: "Hey, what about OUR products...".
Here is a good story: we have a major proposal effort underway in my
shop and what do you think the machine of choice is? The customer
insisted on file and software compatibility so we could interchange
data between the two companies. Oh, you guessed. :-) So... we DO
have Macs in the office, ALBEIT WELL HIDDEN... [capitalization added]
but they are rented, so I guess they'll disappear soon. :-(
Have fun on your quest, and keep us in the field posted.
===== end bowdlerized text =====
"albeit well hidden" ??? I rest my basenote case... or at least I add
yet one more corroborative view to the original one.
Your views?
|
| 1076.26 | | BOLT::MINOW | Gregor Samsa, please wake up | Tue Apr 17 1990 21:47 | 47 |
| Various comments about various notes:
-- The point-and-click Mac interface has advantages even for us folk who
started life poking holes in paper tape one hole at a time. Consider
setting the modem control parameters on a terminal.
$ help set term
half page printout, including two parameters that look interesting
$ help set term ...
and so on. Eventually, you do $ set term ... and hope you're right.
On the Mac, you pull down a terminal line setup dialog and all of the
parameters you can set (and all of their values) are visible. You won't
type $ set term/speed=4096 because that value isn't in the push-button
dialog.
Consider copying a file from the hard disk to a floppy on the Mac:
1. Insert the floppy.
2. Select the file by clicking on it.
3. Click on the floppy.
You don't have to remember that RX31A: is the real name of the floppy.
You don't have to remember which compose key prints the � character in
the file name (you can even have spaces in file names).
I discovered that, when all is said and done, even file copying and
renaming are just as easy, or easier, on the Mac.
-- This afternoon, I installed a baselevel of the Macintosh Decnet software:
1. Register a node name and get a node number from the telecom folk.
2. Read the 3 page manual (large type).
3. Follow the 5 step process.
It took about 45 minutes; but about 15 was taking notes for the field-test
report.
I'm starting to feel that our strength as a company is no longer in our
own hardware/software, but in the interconnection of multiple systems:
what poets call the "white space between the letters." Our customers are
buying PC's and Mac's: perhaps they know something we should know.
Martin.
|
| 1076.27 | not convinced | BIGUN::SIMPSON | more CPU power than a toaster | Wed Apr 18 1990 03:00 | 26 |
| I sense more than a little religious fervour in .0. While there are
times when non-DEC equipment is better at a particular job I can't
support a generalised push to another vendor's gear within our own
company.
Now, I do have a vested interest in this, because I'm a PC Integration
software specialist. And, no doubt, I'll be expected to add Macintosh
connectivity expertise to my already vast ( :-) ) repetoire in due
course. But then, as the branch specialist that's my job. It is not
the job of an RDB specialist, or ALL-IN-1 or CASE or whatever. It is
hard enough to keep up your expertise on the minimal gear most branches
carry as it is, without worrying about learning something related to
your job peripherally at best.
Nor is it sales' job. They should have as little to do with the gear
as possible, since their role is to find and exploit sales
opportunities, not to be technical specialists. That's where I'm
supposed to come in. Nor do they need the wonderful graphics forte of
a Mac to polish their letters and quotes and so on. We have
secretaries for that, or for big jobs a Bid Centre.
This is not to downplay the Mac's strengths. But in the field in this
part of the world, at least, they simply aren't a priority, nor do I
think they should or will be. We certainly need to be able to
demonstrate them, and on occasion use them in anger. I repeat, that's
my job. But it is not everybody's.
|
| 1076.28 | Mac's for engineering too | HERON::SOPER | | Wed Apr 18 1990 12:47 | 53 |
|
I have 2 comments:
1) It is hard enough just trying to be a simple DECstation station user
here in the European Technical Center (Valbonne). Took 2 months to get
properly set up on a loaner machine, and we're still waiting for the
permanent machine that we ordered 4 months ago. I'm using Ultrix
because it happens to be the O/S that is running the best software on
the fastest hardware to get done what I need to get done.
Nevertheless, some people here react to Ultrix as if it were leprosy.
Our little 4-person workgroup is using a PC, a DECstation, and 4 Macs,
all hooked together, more or less, using VAX/VMS. We are eagerly
awaiting the arrival of the new VAX-Mac software, so the connections
will be more rather than less.
2) Central engineering should also be using Macs, so that they could
learn what an consistent, straightforward, intuitive software interface
is like. I've seen some of the stuff coming out under DECwindows, and
it's clear that they haven't figured this out. I'm a reasonably good
computer user, and have seen a lot of different software running on
different machines. I can take just about any Mac word processor,
sight unseen, and figure out how to do basic stuff with it within 5
minutes. With a little more time and experimentation, you can be doing
all kinds of more advanced things that the software offers. (FWIW: the
very first time I had ever seen a Mac, mouse, desktop or icon, I was
using the Finder (ie. the Mac O/S for file manipulation) *and* MacWrite
within 15 minutes.) This is real power, because I am able to *use*
spreadsheets, databases, paint/draw programs, various word processors,
calendars, programming tools, etc. without having to take days to
(re)learn how to use them.
I've made 2 good-faith efforts at using DECwrite for real work, and
have had to give up; it was to hard to figure out how to use. Because
it is the Company Product, I'm now signed up for a 2 day DECwrite
course to learn how to work it. I'm really embarrased. +/- 7 years
after the introduction of the Mac, and DEC engineering is still trying
to make software as complicated and as dense as possible. I'm not a
professional writer, but I would like to be able to use DECwrite from
time to time to make slides, etc.. But DECwrite is not powerful enough
- ie. I can't use it without having to take 2 days out just to learn
how to do basic stuff in it. For the expanding customer base of the 90's,
that's not good enough.
DECwrite is just one example. There are many others that show the same
trend. Digital engineering does not understand how to design simple,
straightforward, end-user software. They need to be using Macs, just to
get the idea.
James
|
| 1076.29 | Anent 1076.27 - 'Religious fervour?' Kind of... :-) | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum; DEC too! | Wed Apr 18 1990 18:32 | 108 |
| My reading of BIGUN::SIMPSON's 1076.27 has him/her implying that I'm
advocating that we switch, wholesale, "to another vendor's gear within
our own company." Not at all, not at all...
Let me stress, by repetition, what I said in the basenote --
==========
I'm **certainly** not arguing that ALL Digital's desktops should have
Macs on them! Just that we should have an "Equal-Opportunity Desktop"
policy as a desktop occupancy goal. We should emulate, to the Macsimum
(sic :-) extent possible, the market preferences of the customer world
outside. To be sure, we want to give full play to the growing trend
towards DECwindows and Motif applications, and we will *not* sell them
short inside our own company. But the world will not be interested
*solely* in X Windows technology for several years to come, at least...
We should be literate, broadly and deeply, in other computing
traditions than those which we primarily sell.
==========
I resist the characterization of this as "religious fervor" in the
conventional sense. Call it "reality orientation" and you're closer to
the mark I was shooting for. Call it "evangelism" and you'll also be
close, in the sense that Apple Computer charters pathfinders to drum up
support for new programs. If the latter sense was what you were
implying I accept it, *sans* any pejorative shadings I may have
inadvertently read into your reply. :-)
Agreed, it's counterproductive to expect sales people to be deeply
familiar with gear or SW that's only peripherally related to their
jobs. However (set Evangelism_ON :-) there is much data to support the
idea that access to the Mac SW environment can improve people's
communications toolset. One need look no further for this evidence
than some of the responses in this and in the companion note in the
(happily, recently-resurrected) MARKETING notesfile (1184.*).
Agreed further, with some provisos, that "We have secretaries for that,
or for big jobs a Bid Centre." Let's leave aside the possible "collar-
colorism" of the assertion, but I think it's a *feature* to be able to
draft up one's ideas in an intuitive way, and pass them on to one's
"pink-collared :-) collaborator(s)" for final polishing... They can't
be expected to do it ALL, without interaction with their principals;
and if it's easy for those principals to express both their text and
graphics ideas and pass the baton to the final polishers, then bids get
done faster and better, IMHO.
Even in places like Oz, where (I gather?) the incidence of Macs is
fairly low (??). I.e., there still may be an efficiency case to be
made for Mac/VAX environments in DEC field offices for such bid-support
tasks, even if DEC LanWORKS is not relevant to SALES proper because of
low Mac population at customers' VAX sites.
The next segment of this reply isn't directed at 1076.27's author,
because I read his reply as from one who is already among the
"converted" as far as liking and using the Mac environment. It's here
merely because it prompted some recollections from my past few years as
a Mac user.
==========
Rhetorical Observation. Ask 95% of Macintosh users this question: "Do
you *LOVE* your personal computer?" I predict they will say,
unequivocally, YES (-: Note -- I already allowed for a 5% "Scrooge
factor," and perhaps they didn't buy the machine at full list price
either... :-). Ask the same question of a group of MS/DOS personal
computer users and 95% of the respondents will probably look at you
like you're some kind of alien! The question simply does not make any
sense to them.
This is not just some sort of "touchy-feely" softhearted/headed Mac
user propaganda. It's a real observation from my personal experience.
This rather surprising feeling of love (or something approaching it,
for a mere mechanical contrivance! :-) comes because **Mac Users Feel
Empowered.** Mac users love their Macs because they can DO things that
are not possible on other machines. They love their Macs because they
don't have to fear learning new applications, or fear forgetting old
ones. They feel WELCOMED. They feel the cleverness and the caring of
the many application developers who poured their creativity into their
respectIVE apps, while respectING the consistency between apps that
makes the welcome real.
If the question "Do you love YOUR personal computer?" does not
"compute" for you, Gentle Reader, here's a gentle request -- please
find the nearest Mac, run through its intro tutorial to get the feel
for the mouse and how you use its monobutton and the filesystem, and
find a simple word-processor or graphics program. Stay away from the
somewhat hairier desktop presentation or CAD SW until you get the feel
of the intro stuff. Give it a fair shake. Spend a solid couple of
hours immersed in it. Does the question begin to make sense?
==========
But I digress towards the potential for a "holy war" that I was warned
about while writing the basenote. That's NOT the intent. We DON'T
need to think that way anymore. We no longer have to choose BETWEEN
"the Mac way" and "the Digital way," across the board.
We will soon be selling DEC LanWORKS for Macintosh, "The Best Of Both
Worlds - NOW!!" and we have the opportunity to use it ourselves. I
think we can make a good business case for using it more broadly than
just in sales support situations, and it was to further that idea that
I wrote the basenote. Not by ANY means as part of 1076.27's
hypothetical "generalised push" towards another vendor's gear, but as
part of the "Equal Opportunity DeskTop" and without any negative
political connotations, tyvm... :-)
Cheers,
Dan Kalikow, LJO2, Littleton MA USA
|
| 1076.30 | you're talking to an atheist | BIGUN::SIMPSON | more CPU power than a toaster | Thu Apr 19 1990 00:18 | 58 |
| re .29
Upon reflection my first paragraph in .27 is probably poorly phrased.
On the other hand, after .29 I rest my case about the religious
feeling. Mac users are the only group I know who genuflect to their
machine. :-)
> jobs. However (set Evangelism_ON :-) there is much data to support the
> idea that access to the Mac SW environment can improve people's
> communications toolset. One need look no further for this evidence
Then we should take the strengths and incorporate them into our own
technology. No argument. The world has spent several years catching
up to the Mac interface, because it is the best. This doesn't imply
that we should embrace our competitors' implementations though.
> or for big jobs a Bid Centre." Let's leave aside the possible "collar-
> colorism" of the assertion, but I think it's a *feature* to be able to
I'm not quite sure what this means. The role of sales is selling.
Secretaries and Bid Centres provide administrative and associated
support functions to them. What's the problem?
> Even in places like Oz, where (I gather?) the incidence of Macs is
> fairly low (??). I.e., there still may be an efficiency case to be
> made for Mac/VAX environments in DEC field offices for such bid-support
> tasks, even if DEC LanWORKS is not relevant to SALES proper because of
> low Mac population at customers' VAX sites.
As it happens, the Australian PC market is the most power hungry (per
capita) in the world. 80486? 68030? Not a problem. A year ago I
surveyed the local sales team about Mac connectivity requirements in
their accounts and based on the figures they gave me, and the then PCSA
per port connectivity price, I estimated $A2 million direct business was
sitting out there. And that of course ignores the strategic value. So
I hope the Mac connectivity products are as good as you say... :-)
> part of the "Equal Opportunity DeskTop" and without any negative
> political connotations, tyvm... :-)
This contradicts what you said earlier about X Windows. While it is
true the world is taking its time about X we internally are not (hurry
up though with the Motif interface), and the political reality is that
internally Macs are expensive and VAX stations are not (relatively
speaking, of course). The reality is also that we should, and will,
continue to use our own products in preference to others (this does not
negate observations about whatever deficiencies they may have). So in
that sense I do not agree with an 'Equal Opportunity Desktop'.
You also have to realise the implications of such a policy, because they
extend far beyond just Macs. Should I get an IBM RT 6000 in preference
to a DECstation? After all, in their market they're a damn hot box
too, like it or not. And the latest version of AIX has features Ultrix
doesn't (yet).
Regards,
David
|
| 1076.31 | Late night ramblings | BOLT::MINOW | Gregor Samsa, please wake up | Thu Apr 19 1990 02:31 | 13 |
| Dec's strengths -- which is quite different from Dec's products -- seem to
be in what a poet might call the space between the words: the interconnection
between many different applications, each focussed on a private universe.
The Macintosh strength seems to be a consistent view of the human that uses
the computer.
There is room for both, and one cannot say that either strength is stronger.
However, it seems clear to me that we cannot survive if we do not understand
the consistency of purpose that seems unique to the Macintosh.
Martin.
|
| 1076.32 | Re .30 -- ...I... Got... No... Complaints... :-) | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum; DEC too! | Thu Apr 19 1990 11:09 | 67 |
| Your first paragraph really made me smile, David!! It brought to mind
an old 1950s-vintage Sci-Fi story "The Twonky" by (I think it was?) Ray
Bradbury... Where the TV-oid box is wheeled into the writer's home and
gradually reveals itself to be a brainwashing machine of alien
origins... All who view it suddenly turn into mental midgets and
shamble off mumbling "...I... got... no... complaints..."
Funny, but as soon as we got our first MacinTwonkyTosh, Life somehow
seemed SimpLer, the very Air smelled SweetEr, the BirdSong swelled up
from the BackGround MusIc... I... got... nnnoo... Hey, maybe there's
something to what you say! :-) :-)
Here's a joke-riddle for ya: Why do DIGITAL's Mac users prefer
traveling to Honolulu Hawaii, Bowen Australia (in Queensland province),
or Port Etienne, Mauritania (in Africa)?
Because these three destinations (among others) are on a Great Circle
Route that passes through both Maynard and Cupertino, which saves us
LOTS of time each day -- we can genuflect in the same direction and
cover both bases at the same time! :-) :-) :-)
(No disrespect is intended for the Islamic religious faith in the
above.)
More seriously, tho, I get enthusiastic and evangelistic NOT about
abstractions that are IMHO unprovable like religious faiths, but about
tools and technologies, and I *never* advocate anything that I don't
use myself. So that's why I advocate both Macs and DIGITAL
connectivity -- as the announcement slogan will tout, "The Best Of Both
Worlds -- NOW!!"
(No disrespect is intended for ANY religious faith in the first
sentence of the above paragraph.)
My comments about "collar-colorism" were apparently more militantly
pro-secretary than was warranted. I read into your words the
implication that "typing and bid preparation are just secretary's
work" when the end product is always better in my experience if both
principals and their helpers can freely exchange ideas and materials,
without "pink-collar-ghettoizing" the latter. If that's not what you
were implying, I withdraw the point. I've seen too many secretaries
whose ability and dedication carries their offices to stand by and see
them apparently devalued. If that devaluation was more apparent than
real, sorry.
On the potential PCSA/DEC LanWORKS for Macintosh business in Oz --
that's good news indeed. IMHO our Mac connectivity products ARE as
good as I say (yep, that WAS a tautology! :-) so I'm sure you'll all
hit your sales quotas. :-)
... I have to admit that your last paragraph makes me modify my
proposal for an "equal opportunity desktop" by the proviso that (aside
from Competitive Analysis groups, which really need to understand ALL
the competition) we should try to use and familiarize ourselves broadly
with what *DEC* customers tend to have on their desktops, not the
general desktop/workstation population.
As I recall, one of the major incentives to the DEC/Apple Strategic
Alliance was the mutual realization that a significant percentage of
DEC sites were also Macintosh sites. If the same thing becomes true for
RT-6000's, then perhaps the same principle holds? After all, when the
IBM PC became a commodity PC, DEC cloned it and offered a connectivity
strategy, PCSA/NAS...?
(And BTW if anyone's interested, check out #1505.15 in the RAINBO::
MACINTOSH conference; any comments on that March '88 memo from a
contemporary perspective?)
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| 1076.33 | Where will the new customers come from? | KOBAL::DICKSON | | Thu Apr 19 1990 17:56 | 15 |
| I don't understand this stuff about just paying attention to what DEC
customers do instead of the general PC/workstation market. What, we
are happy with the customers we have now and don't need any new ones?
Maybe if we paid more attention to what *everybody* wants, there would
*be* more "DEC customers".
On the internal efficiency side of things, product sales were up 4.3
percent last quarter over the same quarter a year ago. Not very good.
See above about getting more customers. But even worse is that the
"cost of product sales" was up 15.8 percent and the "Selling - general
and administrative" costs were up 12.5 percent. Income before taxes,
corrected for the extra 150M hit for "restructuring" (whatever that
is), was *down* 49 percent. I'd say we should try anything and
everything that might make us more effective at everything we do.
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| 1076.34 | | ULTRA::GONDA | DECelite: Pursuit of Knowledge, Wisdom, and Happiness. | Thu Apr 19 1990 19:20 | 20 |
| From VTX VNS.
Apple - "Is the MAC Making Applesauce of Student Prose?"
{Business Week, 23-Apr-90, p. 120C}
{Contributed by John Ellenburger}
The Apple Macintosh, with its easy-to-use graphics style, may represent a
victory of form over substance. That appears to be the finding of research
conducted at the University of Delaware. Marcia Peoples Halio, assistant
director of the English Dept.'s writing program, assigned the same five
teaching assistants to 10 freshman English classes. One student group used
Macs, the others used IBM PCs or IBM clones.
The instructors said the Mac's large type and graphics seemed to lead to
"sloppier writing and fluffier topics." A writing analysis program of a random
sampling of papers found that 30% of the Mac writers used complex sentences,
compared with 50% of IBM-clone writers. Sentence length averaged 16.3 words
for the Mac essays and 22.6 for those written on PCs. And the Kincaid Scale, a
measure of readability, showed Mac users writing at the 8th grade level, vs.
12th grade for the IBM-clone group. Her article "Student Writing: Can the
Machine Maim the Message?" concludes that the Mac's format seems to "encourage
a simple sentence structure and childish vocabulary."
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| 1076.35 | Applehead incarnate | DEMING::WILSON | | Thu Apr 19 1990 22:24 | 6 |
| I used to write good. But I bought a Mac last year. I don't write
so good now. Maybe if I could only read those manuals. Like DECwrite,
I know their good.
Or maybe I could learn to read Business Week. Before its to late.
John
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| 1076.36 | Simpler writing tends to be clearer. | HERON::SOPER | | Fri Apr 20 1990 11:21 | 23 |
| RE: .34
Shorter sentences and "simpler" words tend to make for clearer writing.
Some people see clear writing as a sign of intelligence and of real
understanding of the subject.
I don't have a copy of Businessweek, so I don't know what the rest of
the article says, but the data presented in .34 does not convince me
that mice and icons cause "dumb" writing by themselves. To the
contrary, because you don't have to spend as much mental energy trying
to figure out/remember what obscure key to press to get something done,
you can concentrate more on the job at hand.
The downside of the Mac is that people now spend more time worrying
about the appearance of what they write, rather than what they are
saying. The upside is that what they write looks more pleasant to read,
hence it is more likely to be read, and it may even be clearer. This is
especially true if they include graphics.
James
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| 1076.37 | Har har! It is to laugh | WORDY::JONG | Steve Jong/TaN Pubs | Fri Apr 20 1990 21:04 | 31 |
| Anent .34 (Vogon News Service as quoted by GONDA):
The suggestion that Macintoshes somehow are impairing the ability of
their users to write is hilarious! I'm amazed to see it spreading.
Sour apples, perhaps?
First, the sample size is very small, and I doubt its general validity.
(Freshman English classes are not altogether representative.) Second,
even granting the validity and accuracy of the data, what makes you
think that shorter, simpler sentences are *bad*? I've been trying to
shorten and simplify my sentences my entire career!
A writing tool can influence your writing, I think, is if it is so hard
to use that it interrupts your train of thought, if changes are so easy
to make that you have no fear of making mistakes, or if it lets you
integrate graphics easily enough to encourage you to use more graphics.
A tool that gets in the way (a quill pen, say) slows you down, and
perhaps makes you so reluctant to make changes that consequently you
compose sentences entirely in your head. A tool that facilitates
corrections (such as any good word processor) lets you plunge ahead
into sentences that might come out badly, secure in the knowledge that
the touch of a key gets you out of trouble. A tool that integrates
graphics might move you to include an illustration or a flow chart
instead of the corresponding text (which is often complex).
On all three points, I think a Macintosh does just fine, though not so
much better than a PC clone to make much of a difference.
Really, though. I challenge you all to pick some contemporary books
and try to establish what computer each was written on. (No peeking at
the front matter, now!)
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| 1076.38 | (-: Rathole Alert! :-) | RANGER::KALIKOW | Nature abhors a VAXuum; DEC too! | Sun Apr 22 1990 11:27 | 41 |
| (With apologies to WORDY::JONG, HERON::SOPER, and DEMING::WILSON whose
hearts look to me like they're in the right place, but who have
answered a note IMHO best left ignored... I was hoping it *would* be
ignored... Anyway, THANKS to you three for getting me started!! :-)
Naturally, such incendiary IMHO nonsense has attracted its share of
flamage on the Internet, as I read recently through the courtesy of one
of the major "perks" of DIGITAL citizenship, my "subscription" to Tom
Parmenter/John Covert's indispensable "DESPERADO" electronic monthly,
"News of the Weird From All Over" (my characterization thereof. :-).
The most trenchant analysis IMHO comes from Kurt [email protected] --
===================================
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 90 17:55 EST
Subject: Writing on Macs vs PCs
To: [email protected]
If Graeme Forbes (Info-Mac, v8, n24) accurately represents Marcia
Peoples Halio's article in "Academic Computing," then she exhibits
some bewildering reasoning. To claim that poor writing skills are the
fault of the machine because it's too easy to use (the Mac) and NOT
due to the people doing the writing leads to an absurdity when the
line of thought is pursued. If the IBM PC leads to better writing
because it's harder to use than the Mac, then a manual typewriter
would be better still. And using paper and pen/pencil would give
still better results. Gosh, the best writers must carve out their
thoughts on stones using hammers and chisels. The difficulty of
erasing makes them refine their thoughts before committing them
to the rock.
===================================
Hey, what works for *me* as a Mac user is that I gotta wear a hair
shirt and stand "en point" in ballet slippers while I force myself to
type with one finger, lest I become COMPLETELY incomprehensible!! :-)
:-)
And now -- can we please get out of this rathole & return to the topic
at hand?
Thanks!! Cheers, Dan Kalikow
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| 1076.39 | Leasing a DIGITAL HiNote -- Pointers please? | LJSRV2::KALIKOW | TeleCommuter on the InfoBahn | Mon Jan 23 1995 19:22 | 23 |
| Why did I choose THIS note to ask this question -- oh, nostalgia I
guess...
Anyway. I need a newer and faster PC than my current laptop, a DECpc
325p, which has been OK. A few reliability probs but OK.
I saw a HiNote the other day. I got a bad case of HW lust. Looks like
as good a box as is possible without being a Mac (nostalgia alert!)
Good formfactor, trackball in the right place, cute ergonomics for the
"mouse"buttons, space for PCMCIA cards, I get to "use what we sell"
which has been VERY valuable of the 325p...
But PCs obsolesce so fast! And my group isn't about to buy a HiNote
for me.
I'm looking to lease one for a year or two at the most. Who should I
ask, please? If not an internal employee purchase group, then is there
an external business whence I might lease one?
Tnx for any info!
Dan
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| 1076.40 | I heard CompUSA might help out, but wait... | NEWVAX::MZARUDZKI | I AXPed it, and it is thinking... | Tue Jan 24 1995 09:39 | 11 |
|
I don't know who you can contact, but a local sales type here
told me do not expect a HiNote Ultra until the March timeframe.
We are trying to get on the list for RotCon or a purchase (unlikely)
ourselves. Seems most customers buy the HiNote on sight. Unfortune
as it is, my customers, like to "see", "stuff" from Digital, on their
sites. High level execs, you know. Digital is not really geared to
scratch this type of itch. And I agree that we should not be geared
like that.
-Mike Z.
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| 1076.41 | re .40 "buy the HiNote on sight." YESSS!! | LJSRV2::KALIKOW | TeleCommuter on the InfoBahn | Tue Jan 24 1995 16:57 | 5 |
| That was MY reaction too... a great looking package that seems (hope
hope) to do all the right things. Tnx for the feedback!
Dan
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| 1076.42 | | AXEL::FOLEY | Rebel without a Clue | Tue Jan 24 1995 18:39 | 10 |
|
RE: .41
Wait till you see the HiNotes coming out later this year! I read
that they'll have the Glidepoint pointer like on the latest
Mac Powerbooks, and 75MHz Pentium cpu's and 5.-1GB disks.
Now THAT will be a notebook! :-)
mike
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| 1076.43 | | LJSRV2::KALIKOW | TeleCommuter on the InfoBahn | Tue Jan 24 1995 21:37 | 22 |
| I took a look at the Mac Powerbook & its "glidepoint" touch-sensitive
pad. After picking myself up off the floor when the Salesperson quoted
me the price (4 or 4.5 KILOBUCKS U.S. Coin of the Realm!!) I gave the
"glidepoint" a feel. Not for me, tnx... Cute capacitance-coupled or
whatever sort of center-of-pressure transducer, but not enough tactile
feedback for me. I'm hoping that the glidepoint cursor-control is
going to be an OPTION on future HiNotes, else I (for one) will tune
out.
Though normally I *hate* strain-gauge-driven transducers that transform
strain into motion and you could NEVER use one for artwork, the IBM
gizmo on their ThinkPads (that sits between the G and the H keys) is
imho WONDERful. I could easily get to love it (for text- and
window-maniuplation). I've seen that IBM is licensing it to other
vendors... Despite its source, I'd sincerely recommend that DIGITAL
consider it along with the glidepoint. It's cool to be able to type
and move the mouse and click with your thumbs, all without moving your
hands away from the Home Keys!
But I digress from my own point... And this by rights should be in a
notebooks-commenting DECnotes file, which I don't read. Feel free to
crosspost this there, anyone...
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| 1076.44 | | AXEL::FOLEY | Rebel without a Clue | Wed Jan 25 1995 11:04 | 8 |
| RE: .43
FWIW, I prefer the IBM Trackpoint myself. Toshiba, Winbook, and
many others are now using it.
But for now, I'll have to stick with my Apple Newton. :-)
mike
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