Conference 7.286::digital

    There are posters up in most facilities announcing this Job Fair.  I'm
    sure it was also fully coordinated with appropriate management.
    
    If you think there are no req's at ZKO, check out VTX.  Must be over
    100 just for software engineers.

    What does TMP mean?

    I don't know what TMP stands for but it some cost center that pays
    people to do nothing while they try and find a job within Digital.
    I understand Digital does this instead of laying them off which is what
    most other companies would do.
    
    Dave

    re -.1
    
    OBJECTION!!!  Trying to find a job within Digital is definitely not
    "doing nothing".  Given the obstacles that personnel, recruiters
    and unresponsive interviewing managers put into a job-seekers path,
    it's one of the toughest jobs I ever had......at least it's the
    only one that ever put me out on short term disability.

> Note 928.4 by SMAUG::GARROD 
>                             -< It's a Free Lunch >-

>    I don't know what TMP stands for but it some cost center that pays
>    people to do nothing while they try and find a job within Digital.
>    I understand Digital does this instead of laying them off which is what
>    most other companies would do.
    
 
(FLAME ON)

I AM CURRENTLY REASSIGNED(5 WEEKS AGO) AND LOOKING FOR A NEW POSITION. THE 
POSITION WHICH I OCCUPIED FOR 3 YEARS WAS ELIMINATED IN A REORGANIZATION. 
I AVERAGED OVER 60 HOURS A WEEK FOR THE THREE YEARS. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH 
CHEAP TALK ABOUT LAYING OFF PEOPLE WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND 
THE PERFORMANCES THESE PEOPLE GAVE WHILE THEY HAD JOBS. I WAS CONSISTENTLY A 
RATED A TWO DURING THE 8 YEARS I HAVE WORKED FOR DEC.

(DOWN TO A SIMMER)

There are I am sure some people in TMP (Transition Management Program)(which 
I am not) who may qualify as "goldbricks" and deserve to be layed off. 
Likewise I am sure there are similar goldbricks in groups that haven't been 
hit with downsizing requirements by the corporation. There is nothing more 
demeaning that to have worked your butt off for three years and be told "we 
don't need your skill and expertise anymore". There is nothing more 
humiliating than to reach out to your DEC network of friends and business 
contacts and beg to get an interview for a position.  

The Author of .4 should learn to Value Differences and not make brash 
general statements about what DEC and the rest of the industry do. Some day
he/she may find themselves in the same boat that some of us are in now!

al

RE: .4,.5

	Let's not rathole about what TMP is or isn't, ok?

	The Job Fair for ZK has been advertised in the JOBS notesfile,
	something I think just about everyone in TMP should be reading
	on a regular (every 10 minutes??) basis.  Getting mail sent to
	VMSINTREST.DIS "announcing" the Job Fair, to me, seems like just
	another way to "spread the news" of open reqs.  Yes, we DO have
	reqs up here.. There's lots of work to be done! I know of two
	open reqs for two GOOD system managers here in VMS and that's just
	due to people moving on in their lives/careers.

	Don't blame ZK for having reqs. Blame YOUR management for not
	justifying your reqs better to upper management. Or just blame
	upper management.

							mike

    Re .-1
    
    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just reread my reply
    and while I stand by each and every word I wrote it could be read in
    a negative light in a way that I didn't mean it.
    
    Let me clarify. What I meant by the phrase '...pays people to do nothing
    while they try and find a job within Digital' is the following:
    
    '...pays people, who the corporation currently has no need for, to use
     their time to look for a job elsewhere in Digital where they could
     again benefit the corporation'.
    
    I still say that other companies often lay these people off. A good
    case could be made that Digital's approach is a lot more effective
    because in a lot of cases it is cheaper to retrain a worker that is surplus
    in another area than to hire someone from the outside.
    
    Sorry for any offence caused, maybe I should have written a more
    expansive reply the first time.
    
    Dave
     look for a job within Digital, Di

< Note 928.8 

  Dave, I am glad you are sorry - it wasn't so much that what you wrote 
could be interpreted wrongly - IT was the title " ....free lunch ". 

al

    
    
    Now, the real question is where are all these new people in ZK going to
    sit ?
    
    

Personally I thought this was a great idea.  Someone ought to get a big
pat on the back. 

John

       RE: .11
       
       	I thought one had to have an office in order to get a req in ZK?
       	I suspect that we'll have to double up again.
       
       						mike

    What I would like to know is how come so many openings came about?
    Did all these people leave?
    
    Thanx, (RUMI) �.

    There is some space available in ZKO.  I just did a walkabout in my
    part of ZKO2-2 and found two unoccupied offices within a few feet of
    mine.  The offices may not be well distributed: we don't have any
    req's.
        John Sauter

RE: .14

	Lots of work to do and a number of people moving on with their lives
	and careers in and out of DEC.

							mike

    re .0

    Maybe it's just me, but I've never found a thing wrong with robbing
    Peter to pay Paul.

	- Paul

An office is a requirement for having a req?

Bob_who_feels_lucky_to__be_sharing_a_six_man_cube_with_3_other_people

    My informal survey shows that ZKO3 is currently the only building at ZK
    that is short of office space.

    As for justification, remember that Software is profitable for the
    company -- moreso than hardware, recently.  A lot of people willl
    have to change jobs in the next couple of fiscals to achieve
    reorganizational goals, but not necessarily to LEAVE.  They have
    to go somewhere!  Many of those qualified will end up in Software.
    So why do you CARE?!  
    
    Sherry

    Re:
    
    > So why do you CARE?!
    
    I care because I am in an organization (NAC) that is not allowed to
    hire outside of NAC and whose headcount has been frozen. I saw the
    mailing to VMSINTEREST.DIS to be a thinly veiled attempt to encourage
    SOFTWARE engineers in other parts of the company to come work in DSSG.
    VMSINTEREST.DIS is not the best distribution list to use if you truly
    are looking for outplaced hardware engineers, manufacturing people etc.
    
    I don't think encouraging software engineers to move from one group
    to another is best for the company overall. Sure if somebody is looking
    for a new challenge it is pretty easy for them to get into contact with
    the right people. Why try to rock the boat in other organizations,
    especially those in MASS who have just had a 15% tax hike thrust upon
    them?
    
    Dave

    Encouraging people to move from one group during a time of tight
    margins is *exactly* the right thing to do, if the people are moved
    from unproductive or inefficient areas into productive and efficient
    ones.

re .21:

>    VMSINTEREST.DIS is not the best distribution list to use if you truly
>    are looking for outplaced hardware engineers, manufacturing people etc.

    They're not.  They're looking for experienced software engineers.
    At least that's what I glean from the lists of positions available.

RE: OFFICE SPACE

There is plenty of office space in all the ZKO buildings.  Its just not
being used efficently.  Send the ZKO facilities manager to the KYO
facility and so he or she can learn how you can fit people into 4'8" x
4' (bring a tape measure if you doubt it) cubicles.  

John

Does anyone know how much office space we would reclaim if we all
used online electronic documenation instead of paper?

You'd be surprised.

Customers know though ... they've asked us about this.

- greg

    Re: .0
    
    	I see nothing wrong in this. If people are looking, they're
    looking. What do you do, hide the computer rags when they arrive?
    
    Quit moaning, advertise your vacancies as effectively, they'll get
    filled.
    
    - ���

    RE: Putting people in 4'8" x 4' cubicles. Have any studies been made on
    the effects of this with respect to one enjoying one's job ? In other
    words, is it _really_ more efficient ?
     
    God forbid those folks in the KYO facility should have workstations.


    pjd

RE:            <<< Note 928.27 by VMSSG::DICKINSON "Peter Dickinson" >>>
>    RE: Putting people in 4'8" x 4' cubicles. Have any studies been made on
>    the effects of this with respect to one enjoying one's job ? In other
>    words, is it _really_ more efficient ?

From FORTUNE 25 Sep 89 page 112

"One of Capers Jone's productivity studies shows that a programmer or
analyst who has 100 square feet of office space is twice as productive
as one squeezed into 40 square feet.  Programmer packed into tight
quarters are easily distracted, and they need loit of room to spread out
reference materials."

>    God forbid those folks in the KYO facility should have workstations.

Surely you jest?

John

> "One of Capers Jone's productivity studies shows that a programmer or
> analyst who has 100 square feet of office space is twice as productive
> as one squeezed into 40 square feet.  Programmer packed into tight
> quarters are easily distracted, and they need loit of room to spread out
> reference materials."

    This is a well known fact (except maybe that the productivity increase
    you get by giving software engineers more space is probably less than
    twofold ;-), which seems to be completely ignored in DEC. Boehm and
    others have written dozen of papers on the subject, and have never be
    proven wrong by any decent study. I have seen three IBM labs where
    software engineering was being done, including the giant La Gaude lab
    and Yorktown: unless space was real short, IBM programmers are always
    given a CLOSED office for ONE person. No open space or office sharing.
    Studies include the real cost of having a window, a large VS small
    desk, an armchair VS a basic chair, and stuff like that. And don't tell
    me that the productivity of Software Engineers in DEC isn't an issue...

    It's really a trade-off: you can get more productive software engineers
    by giving them more space and closed offices; the ultimate choice
    should only be driven by local costs of building space. Sometimes it
    seems that Corporate Culture gets blindly applied all over the world:
    it's a pity to hear brain damaged things like 'In Digital, we do things
    this way'.

    Denis.

re: .25

Your idea is good except for two things:

1)  Cost Center managers would have to spend money to buy everyone workstations
    so they could read the online documentation.  It's already next to
    impossible for any non-engineering organization to buy anything these days.

2)  Then there is the cost of keeping the documentation current.  I can't
    believe that the internal cost for the VMS online doc CD subscription
    is $50/bimonthy.

Greg, you should have an idea.  Does it really cost that much to produce those
CDs?

Bob

    The most important point here is that engineering is being forced
    to hire from within digital, and that while it may seem to YOU
    that DSSG is 'poaching' your turf, they are acting in the best
    interests of the corporation. 
    
    my understanding is that Digital has always encouraged employees
    to seek internal job changes if that is their desire, and that
    if an employee achieves this transition, it is likely to benefit
    both the corporation and the employee.
    
    Also note that such use of email for Digital business purposes
    (and hiring for Digital is clearly such) is fully supported by
    coporate policy. 
    
    If people from your organization DO leave to work at ZKO (people
    from mine have done so, and more probably will soon), it actually
    creates an OPPORTUNITY for those who remaian. Such opportunities
    can enhance your career...

re: .30

> 1)  Cost Center managers would have to spend money to buy everyone
>     workstations so they could read the online documentation.

a) There are alternatives to VAX/VMS workstations.

b) They are paying for them already ... it just takes them a couple
   of docsets to do so.  See the SDC memo to show JUST HOW FAST cost
   centers can recoup REAL costs by making the change.  It's all laid
   out for them.

> 2)  Then there is the cost of keeping the documentation current.  I can't
>    believe that the internal cost for the VMS online doc CD subscription
>    is $50/bimonthy.

> Greg, you should have an idea.  Does it really cost that much to produce those
> CDs?

Do you mean you wonder if it costs less or more?  Anyway, we can't publish
costs here but I do believe that the $50 does represent a reasonable transfer
cost at this time.  With the volumes we have today it is more of an estimated
number than a historically proven one.  Later one we'll know for sure.

Among other things you pick up a lot of storage, handling, and shipping
costs.  And then, the CD *ITSELF* is about the least expensive item in
that entire kit.   ;;;;;-)

- greg

(ps: dear moderators, I know, I know ... we're off the original topic
     and perhaps a tad far from "Digital style of working".  We thank
     you for your patience).

    re: .32
    
>b) They are paying for them already ... it just takes them a couple
>   of docsets to do so.
    
    Perhaps this is why I hear rumblings of "maybe we only need one or two
    docsets for 3 units anyway".  This has been considered as a serious
    solution to the problem of where to put "all that" documentation
    once we are herded into the promised bullpens.  8^(
    
    -- Russ

    [set moderator hat == on]
    
    This topic has REALLY wandered into the twilight zone. What started
    as a discussion of the job fair has degenerated into talk of cubicle
    size and preferred documentation media...
    
    Please feel free to start topics on both these subjects in this
    conference if you wish, by all means, but not as a reply to this
    note.
    
    [set moderator hat == off]
    
    speaking as a noter and not a moderator..... if anyone tries to
    poach ME I wish them luck. Ill never fit into that little egg-cup.
    
    rick levine

    What????
    
    		Poached eggs in Egg cups??????

    Software profitability (according to Bill Strecker) is 2x that of
    hardware!  Hardware is not where the profit is today, although it is
    still very important to our success (ie: the High Density Signal
    Carrier-HDSC).  The future direction of this company is s/w.
    
    Are we going to have job fairs in manufacturing facilities like
    Westfield, Salem, Augusta, etc.. NO!
    
    You take a look at the greatest opportunities for the company and you
    INVEST in these.  The DSSG Fair attempts to do this.  
    
    Poaching (trepassing or taking something illegal) is not the best word
    to describe this process, but the process of hiring into critical jobs
    in necessary although one may consider it "evil".  You may be "pissed"
    at the recent series of events associated with this fair but that
    feeling could get elevated if we became even less profitable (the
    bottom line) because we failed to funnel the right resources into
    critical jobs.
    
    BTW, about 30% of the floor in ZKO2-1 is open.  A TP group just moved
    to TAY.  Lots of office space here.  I don't know if it's reserved but
    you may want to investigate.  Maybe we'll be neighbors. 8-]
    
    Rick 

RE Note 928.10 by MAMIE::LAMIA

>ZKO job fair also is announced on Corp. VTX Livewire

What's corporate VTX Livewire?

Be sure you provide the right answer, the one valid for people in LKG (where
the author of .0 works) or HLO (where I work).

Hint:  There is no "Corp. VTX Livewire" and there is no Livewire at either of
those facilities.

/john

    Corporate Livewire is at 25109::LW
    
    25109 is 24.533 and that is GRIMLY::.
    
    This answer works everywhere except hidden or otherwise
    partioned areas.
    _bill

You missed my point, bill.

I'm not trying to figure out how to send mail to "Corporate LiveWire" -- I'm
trying to figure out how to access it from VTX from sites which haven't put
in a local LiveWire.

You see, unless your site has a local Livewire, you don't have access to
corporate livewire.

So it isn't very corporate, is it?  And you can't expect much of the corporation
to read it, can you?

/john

    Just checkin' on a few things, actually.  I specifically left
    VTX out of my previous note.  In fact, LIVEWIRE has been a
    registered Corporate VTX Infobase since Jan 30, 1986.  Access
    has been controlled, and a few sites had their own.
    
    Work has been underway to un-restrict it, and last I heard
    it was very close to being available world-wide, still with
    each site having the option to provide whatever level of service
    they wish to, or one of their own.
    
    So, in fact, VTX LIVEWIRE should get you something, if only a page
    saying it will be available end of FY90.  :-)

VTX LIVEWIRE gets me only "That information is not available."

/john

    
    Are these jobs for open to TMP people, or are they for experienced
    people only?
    
    Are these req's real? Or are they looking for temporary bodies for
    a short time, but procedure says "cut a req" so a req gets cut. 
    
    I am a new member of TMP. I knew over a year ago that my job would
    go away so I prepared for this. I figured software would be the
    way to go so I spent the last year or so preparing myself. 
    
    Wrong!!!! What I wasn't prepared for was the amount of politics,
    and empire building in DEC. If DEC was run like a real buisness
    then I would have got a job a long time ago.
    
    Before  entering TMP I applied for jobs and could not get them because
    I was not in TMP (okay I can handle that). Now that I am in TMP
    I find that *most* of these req's aren't worth diddly.
    
    Yes!!! I would like very much to find a real job (no one would be
    stealing or poaching me) but with all this political HS and pseudo
    jobs I'm ready to walk out the door and go to work for a real buisness.
    
    I hope that this doesn't sound like flaming because its not. Just
    new to written communications (yet another skill to develope!!!).
    My future HRM (Human Resource Manager) suggests that I start networking
    So here I am folks!!!!!
    
    Verne Cote TMP @NI0
    Funny the way we at DEC have no place for those who *want* to work!!

.42�    Are these jobs for open to TMP people, or are they for experienced
.42�    people only?
    
    The details are provided in various notes in OASS::JOBS
    conference.  As far as I could tell most of them where
    open to all people.  Whether relocation or other constraints
    restrict individuals can be checked out from there too.
    You can also lookup WECARE::OPEN_HOUSE:JOB.LIST if you 
    are interested.

<<< Note 928.21 by SMAUG::GARROD "An Englishman's mind works best when it is
 almost too late" >>>
    
>    I care because I am in an organization (NAC) that is not allowed to
>    hire outside of NAC and whose headcount has been frozen. I saw the

  Why aren't you allowed to hire outside of NAC? This rule means that NAC's
headcount is reduced as people transfer outside of NAC but no group in NAC
can keep its headcount constant except by hiring people away from other groups
in NAC. Is NAC upper management out of touch with what is happening at the cost
center level?

       RE: .42
       
>    Wrong!!!! What I wasn't prepared for was the amount of politics,
>    and empire building in DEC. If DEC was run like a real buisness
>    then I would have got a job a long time ago.
       
	Some might say that if DEC was run like a real business, alot
       of people would be layed off right now.
       
       	As far as your situation, it's hard to say because we don't
       know your qualifications. (and it's probably best not to dive down
       that rathole here) Suffice to say, that as far as I know, the reqs
       ARE real and yes'em, as a 9 year DECcie, I'm sure there are
       politics involved somewhere..
       
       	good luck in your search,
       
       						mike    
       

             <<< Note 928.37 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>
             -< No fair defining VTX$SERVER to point to Spitbrook >-

> Be sure you provide the right answer, the one valid for people in LKG (where
> the author of .0 works) or HLO (where I work).

	Sorry 'bout raising this nit but I work in LKG and I access
	the corporate LIVEWIRE from DELNI by typing VTX LIVEWIRE.

	_peggy

	Back to the non-discussion of the topic at hand.

Yeah.  Works from HLO now, too.

Not that long ago, though, there had to be facility livewire.  Corporate
Livewire was just a page telling you to have your facility set up a local
livewire system.

/john