Conference 7.286::digital

    What do you mean by "sponsor"?  Would you like Digital to allocate
    funds to pay for your league entry fees, uniforms, etc?  Or would
    you just like to form teams and play the survival game on a regular
    basis?  I can understand why Digital may not want to pay for your
    league, but there should be no reason to stop you from sending out
    sign-up sheets around the office for an informal league.

    
    Digital, like most employers, is scared of law suits by employees.
    In this !@#$% state, I can't blame them.
    
    I am a karate student. Several years ago I approached DEC about
    reserving my facility's rec room -- which was already used for aerobics
    classes -- for an hour or two a day for karate students to practice
    kata, kumite, and other non-contact drills (for those not familiar
    with karate, these involve doing a sequence of steps while pretending
    to fight an opponent.) Fat chance. The building manager turned white
    at my suggestion, despite the fact that there was no more danger
    to practicing kumite or kata than there is of going down a flight
    of stairs.
    
    Don't hold your breath about getting company permission for *any*
    physical hobby on company property. The damn lawyers have crippled
    us all.
    
    
    Ken                                           
    

    	I no longer have the material in front of me so I cannot give you
    all the specifics, but here are a few.

    	Digital will contribute up to $10 toward tournament fees, up to 30%
    of facility rental fees, up to 30% referee fees, $10 toward league
    membership, and $10 toward a league uniform with the digital logo on
    it. Digital will do this for ALL leagues it sponsors. 

    	There is a legal document that must be signed by all participants
    that relinquishes Digital from any and all liability. This must be
    signed by members of the hockey team, softball team etc.

    	All I wanted was to receive the same treatment other leagues get.
    What I got was a personal bias against guns and shooting other
    employees with paint pellets (at least that was the impression I got).
    
    						-Keith
    

    Where did you get your numbers?  I know of softball leagues where
    ALL fees are paid by Digital.  Are your numbers local or should
    I go to VTX and check the P&P?  I have approached my manager about
    tournament fees for Water Skiing tournaments since the Golf and
    Softball league fees are reimbursed....  I was laughed out of the
    office, which is what I expected....   Is this just a local call?
    
    -brett

    RE: .2
    
    FWIW, we had both aerobics and karate training in my previous facility
    (CTC).  Of course, you have to checked up by the resident nurse and
    sign a waiver.  In fact the guy was even given a award for this (I
    think).  

>                       <<< Note 920.0 by STAR::GRIFFIN >>>
>              -< Leagues Digital does not like, are not allowed! >-

>    	It appears that Digital will not sponsor this league because it
>    does not like the idea of employees shooting one another with paint
>    pellets. Why should digital sponsor leagues like Hockey which is alot
>    more violent and not sponsor paintball?

Digital DOES 'sponsor' this game in the UK. (Known as skirmish here)
What's wrong with the interested employees signing a disclaimer? - 
surely this exempts Digital from any injuries or accidents, howsoever
caused.

	Craig.

There is no ubiquitous entity called "Digital" which establishes policies like
this, I'm sure. It's clearly at the discretion of whatever local sponsorship 
body you were dealing with to sponsor or not sponsor a particular activity. 
I would be very surprised to find a company-wide policy on such things; it would
be a massive waste of bureaucracy.

I don't understand why people need to find company sponsorship to go off and 
play games, anyway. If you want to play, play. What's Digital got to do with it?
(This applies equally well to softball as wargames.)

    Re .7
    
    Digital sponsors leagues to encourage employees to get together. They
    also sponsor things for the good of the community.
    
    Re .0
    
    I am appalled by the reaction you got from Digital. I am a manager of
    one of the soccer times in the Intra Digital soccer league. I know for
    a fact that Digital puts money into this league. I'm not how much, I'll
    ask the treasurer on Monday. But I do know that the a team could get
    free teeshirts (ie Digital paid) if all team members got a teashirt and
    it had the Digital logo on it.
    
    Your sport is perfectly legal and no more dangerous than soccer.
    Probably a lot less dangerous, this season at least 3 people have got
    relatively serious injuries in the Digital Soccer League (broken legs
    etc). All members of the Digital soccer league have to form a waiver
    at the beginning of the season absolving digital of any responsibility
    if the person is injured. Digital also supplies the soccer fields. In
    fact I think Digital is open itself up more to liability cases in the
    soccer case than it would in your 'paintball' case. The reason being is
    that the soccer games are played on Digital property. It would be an
    interesting case if someone got injured playing soccer on one of these
    soccer fields due to say a piece of grasscutting machinery falling off
    onto the field. Is this negligence on Digital's part? Who knows, I
    certainly don't.
    
    In your case I presume your league would take place off Digital
    property. If I were you I'd try to get your league supported by saying
    it is discrimination not to. As far as I can see there is no difference
    between your league and the already existing, soccer, hockey,
    basketball etc leagues.
    
    Good luck and if you need any information on how much money Digital
    gives the intra company soccer league drop me a mail message and I'll
    try and dig the information u for you.
    
    Dave

    RE: .0

    This sounds very discriminatory to me.  I would be interested in hearing
    the 'official' reason.  Have you received a paper or mail response
    saying why they will not sponsor a paint ball league?  If not, I would
    encourage you to do so.  I would bring up the point that this is
    already sponsored by DEC in the UK.

    I wonder what they would do if someone tried to start a gun shooting
    league?  I know of a bank that does this.  I am sure personnel would
    have a cow and try their hardest to stop something like this, but it is
    a lot safer than any of the other sports.

    Please keep us updated with information on your challenge.


    RE: .7

    No one joins DEC to just join DEC sponsored teams, but DEC has agreed
    to sponsor 'events' to help employees enjoy themselves.  There are
    currently leagues/clubs from skiing, basketball, softball, soccer to
    Railroading.  Why does DEC get involved?  To help the employees enjoy
    life and work together.  This is a perk, if you will.

�    < Note 920.6 by MARVIN::COCKBURN "promoting international unity" >
�  Digital DOES 'sponsor' this game in the UK. (Known as skirmish here)
    
    Craig,
    
    When you say that Digital 'sponsors' the game in the UK do you mean
    the company or a Sports & Social Club??
    
    Jim

    At least insofar as the Reading S&SC goes, they are a company cost
    centre, thus the S&SC and the company are the same thing...?
    
    - ���

    
RE: Note 920.4
    ATLV5::LOWE_B
    
�    Where did you get your numbers?  I know of softball leagues where
�    ALL fees are paid by Digital.  Are your numbers local or should
�    I go to VTX and check the P&P?  I have approached my manager about
�    tournament fees for Water Skiing tournaments since the Golf and
�    Softball league fees are reimbursed....  I was laughed out of the
�    office, which is what I expected....   Is this just a local call?
�    
�    -brett
    
    Before I attempted to form a league I called personnel. They sent me
    the guidelines from the Employee activities handbook. That is where I
    got my information. All of the decisions are made by Corporate Employee
    Services and Recreation.
    
    
RE: Note 920.7
    STAR::BECK
        
�     There is no ubiquitous entity called "Digital" which establishes
�     policies like this, I'm sure. It's clearly at the discretion of
�     whatever local sponsorship  body you were dealing with to sponsor or
�     not sponsor a particular activity.  I would be very surprised to find a
�     company-wide policy on such things; it would be a massive waste of
�     bureaucracy.
    
	Wrong. There is an entity call "Corporate Emplyee Services and
    Recreation" that has established guidelines for creating clubs and
    leagues. Part of those guidelines contains the following philosophy:
    
    	"Digital supports the formation of educational and recreational
    clubs and leagues worldwide. Employee relations are enhanced by
    supporting opportunities for employees to come together across
    geographic and organizational boundaries regardless of position or
    organization in the company. Participation fosters team building, skill
    development, leadership, emotional and physical well-being."
    
 
�     I don't understand why people need to find company sponsorship to go
�     off and  play games, anyway. If you want to play, play. What's Digital
�     got to do with it? (This applies equally well to softball as wargames.)
    
    
    	Who said anything about "need"? I am only trying to get the same
    treatment given to other clubs. As far as playing goes, we have played
    already. In fact you must have seen the mail messages that went around
    about organizing the games. The games were fun, and we intend on doing
    it again, with or without the Digital support. The point is, if Digital
    sponsors one club it should sponsor all clubs!
    
    
    	Because I was a bit surprised at the response I got, I did not say
    anything over the phone (read that as unprepared). Right now I am
    gathering information regarding the safety of the sport, the liability
    of the sport, what leagues are already supported etc...
    
    I will keep you posted on any developments.
    
    						-Keith

    I think that you will find that all "sports" are not viewed as being
    equal....especially by the lawyers and the insurance companies. 
    Especially for "wargames" type activities the added liability risk
    would generally be viewed as unexceptable.  NOT for the game itself but
    for the "possible" consequences of someone going crazy....causing some
    serious harm at work....and then using the defense that it was a
    flashback reaction or learned behavior from the Digital sponsored game.
    	I know that this sounds crazy....that this type of thing would
    NEVER happen...that the game is not like that....BUT that's NOT what a
    court of law might say.
    Ric

    
    RE: .13
    
    	According to Digital's law department, paintball presents no more
    liability than any other sport that involves physical activity. The
    examples used were; Hockey, Softball, and Soccer.
    
    						-Keith
    

    
    Re:
    
>    would generally be viewed as unexceptable.  NOT for the game itself but
>    for the "possible" consequences of someone going crazy....causing some
>    serious harm at work....and then using the defense that it was a
>    flashback reaction or learned behavior from the Digital sponsored game.
    
    I can't believe that this is the reason. I presume if the above would
    hold up in court against Digital then so would the following:
    
    	'Yes I am afraid my work colleague is dead. I headbutted him so
    	 hard that his brain fell out. I had this flashback to playing
    	 soccer in the Digital soccer league. When he walked towards me
    	 his head appeared to be a soccer ball and I jumped up and headed
    	 it'.
    
    Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
    
    Dave

    Re:
    
    
>    According to Digital's law department, paintball presents no more
>    liability than any other sport that involves physical activity. The
>    examples used were; Hockey, Softball, and Soccer.
    
    I wrote my previous reply before I'd read Keith's reply extracted
    above. I'm glad the Digital Law Department doesn't have the ridiculous
    attitude that was expoused in the reply I was railing against.
    
    Keith, I'm sure you'll need to sign a form absolving Digital of
    liability. I can send you the one we have to sign for the Digital
    Soccer League if you are interested.
    
    I agree with you, your club should receive the exact same treatment as
    any other club. Anything less than that is discrimination. Good luck,
    I'm sure you'll find your way around the petty bureaucrats sooner or
    later and reach somebody who knows how to read Digital's P&P.
    
    Dave

Aside from being unfair, is discrimination on the basis of sports preference
illegal or against Company policy?

    In contact sports like soccer and (_amateur_) hockey, the physical
    aggression is supposed to be accidental, or at least incidental to the
    main objective (score an inanimate goal). In war sports, the agression
    is directed toward some person (enemy) and is a deliberate and
    premeditated 'assualt'. That doesn't sound to me like it's in keeping
    with the concept of employee-to-employee friendly interchange.
    
    To give a perhaps parallel example, a game like paint ball would NOT be
    tolerated in Scouting (Boy or Girl), although (if competition were
    downplayed), soccer would be.

    RE: .18

    	Not missing the point at all. What happens when someone gets hit
    with a hockey puck? A lot more damage than when someone gets hit with a
    paintball! My brother played youth soccer (you know the soccer played
    by young teens 14-16) and broke his collar bone in a game. 

    	Also, how do you score an "inanimate" goal when a real person is
    "trying" to step in front of you and block your shot?! 

    � ....In war sports, the aggression is directed toward some person
    � (enemy) and is a deliberate and premeditated 'assault'. That doesn't
    � sound to me like it's in keeping with the concept of
    � employee-to-employee friendly interchange.

    	The friendly interchange is in the planning of the assault, the
    working together to bring the assault off, and in the victory or
    defeat. Yes you are working against the other team, but the other team
    is not necessarily people you work with. The people you work with are
    on YOUR team. In the games I have played with Digital employees,
    everyone thoroughly enjoyed themselves. When I was shot by another
    employee I did not know, what do you think we talked about after that
    game? The shot that killed me. This introduced us to one another on a
    more personal level. Granted if an adult wants to act childish, nothing
    will come out of playing the sport. But we were all professionals and
    we all accepted the game for what it was and had a good time. Have you
    ever played the game?

    	As far as boy (or girl) scouts go, they may not be allowed to play
    paintball, but we are not talking about juveniles we are talking about
    adults playing the game.

    							-Keith
    

    
    
    ...they just don't share it fairly!!
    

    I am president of the Digital Littleton (MA) Volleyball League, one of
    several company volleyball leagues.  I have had dealings with the
    corporate employee activities group.

    I think you have a legitimate point here.  Establishing a new club or
    league, especially one outside of the accepted spectrum of activities,
    can indeed be difficult, and I wonder whether anyone at the corporate
    level ought to be making judgements as to what is or is not an
    acceptable activity.  If the activity is lawful, I think it must be
    legitimate.  Unless there's a corporate guideline to fall back
    on, how can they disapprove?  And I wouldn't want to be the one to
    write the guideline...

    Further complicating matters is the fact that some activities, such as
    skiing, are intrinsically expensive, while others are not.  Other
    activities are indirectly subsidized; for example, the Maynard
    softball league is indirectly but heavily subsidized in that Digital
    owns and maintains a softball field.  Some leagues spend their subsidy,
    in effect, on their annual banquet; others plow the money into rental
    of town facilities.  (Our money pays for the town residents to enjoy
    their own activities programs, which, believe me, is great PR.)
    Should the company decide on the basis of cost per participant, or just
    cost overall?

    Relative danger is an interesting metric.  I can tell you bones have
    been broken in the volleyball, softball, and soccer leagues, and I do
    believe the Ski Club has suffered one fatality.  (Softball is actually a
    much more dangerous sport than is commonly believed, according to
    facility nurses I've talked to.)  And I believe .2 when he says 
    practicing karate is like "going down a flight of stairs," though I
    suspect this passage is in fact a Freudian typo 8^)
    
    I've run a winter volleyball league with a subsidy (for gym
    rental, balls, whistles, nets, etc.) and a summer league without a
    subsidy (we used an existing outdoor court, and player dues bought two
    volleyballs).  It's a lot easier without the subsidy.  (I can see your
    budget proposal now:

    	100	Guns @ $9.99	30% subsidy	$299)

    Finally, in this era of tightening belts, I'd consider whether the
    corporate subsidy is really worth it.  I don't know how expensive
    paintball is.  I don't want to sound like an "I've got mine, Jack"
    person.  But I caution you that you may run into a financial brick wall
    despite the merits of your case.  I'm mindful of that as I prepare my
    budget, and this is our third year 8^(

I wonder if the person who turned down your request did so based on an
assumption that our founder and president, a member of the Society of
Friends, would disapprove.

Not that there is any reason to KNOW that a disapproval of "war" would also
imply a disapproval of "war games."

/john

    Re .18:
    
    Evaluating sports based upon expense or actual injuries would be an
    objective criterion.
    
    Make the decision based upon alleged aggression is an imposition of
    values.
    
    Of course, Digital is free to use its money to exercise its values, up
    to a point, but it is not nice.
    
    A decision based upon alleged aggression is also misdirected.  Many
    sports are exercises of war skills or symbols of them.  The original
    Olympics were basically war games, even to the footrace to judge the
    best messenger.  One does not pole vault over the walls of a fortress
    where one is invited, nor is a javelin used to make friends.  Football
    is a game of territorial conquest.  The goal in paintball is just as
    inanimate as in soccer -- to get an inanimate flag to an inanimate
    location.  It's a game in which players of the other team are removed
    from play by marking them with paint -- where's the aggression in that?
    Who says the game is about aggression instead of strategy, stealth, and
    good aim?          
    
    If aggression is the criterion, let's eliminate chess.  I can't stand
    the thought of footsoldiers trampled under horses' hooves. 
    
    
    				-- edp

      -< "I can't define 'obscenity', but I know it when I see it..." >-
    
    Perhaps the person who turned down your request was simply trying to
    exercise a bit of good taste...
         

RE: .24    

>    Perhaps the person who turned down your request was simply trying to
>    exercise a bit of good taste...
         
Who's? That is part of the problem, they are exercising THEIR taste.
What we need is consistency. I agree with .23 if its "war games" that is 
objectionable then we (DEC) should not be sponsoring chess. If it is
physical injuries that is the problem, then that would eliminate just about
all "sporting" events because whether contact is part of the game or not
the fact is that contact happens and therefore injuries.
I know that is a generalization that there are sports/activities where no
contact accidental or otherwise occurs, I am just trying to make a point.

I personally don't like the idea of people playing "war" but, if DEC is to
sponsor employee activities then it ought it sponsor ALL legal activities
or none at all.

This problem falls into the same category as some managers allowing
"non-business" notes files while others do.

- George

    RE: .21

    �  ...  It's a lot easier without the subsidy.  (I can see your
    �  budget proposal now:
    � 
    � 	100	Guns @ $9.99	30% subsidy	$299)

    	
    	The budget we were going to propose did not include guns. In fact
    the place where we are going to play provide very nice guns, multiple
    fields, and all the judges we need. What I was looking for in the
    subsidy was $10 per member for the tournaments, and the 30% for fields
    and fees. 

    	However, even if I get no subsidy people would still like to play
    and we will. But the real problem is this: Corporate has stated the
    following (and I quote) "If activity is not supported by Digital then
    group can not solicit employees, nor advertise the activities within
    the Company." That is a the real problem! How will I let employees know
    that they can participate? According to this statement, the notesfile I
    created is in violation of policy and I may have to remove it. This I
    think is the true injustice!

    The distinquishing feature of paint ball that I see is the assault, not
    the aggression; that occurs in lots of games. Paint ball has gotta be
    safer than, say, American tackle football, in which players on opposing
    teams also directly assault one another.  A good test might be, does
    Digital approve of ('support') tackle football?  I think not, but I may
    be wrong. Even so, splattering someone with paint seems (to those of us
    not inclined to play such a game) to be an insult to one's person
    (dignity?).  Another good equity test might be to see if Digital would
    support custard pie flinging contests. 
    
    No question that value judgements are involved here, and that this
    poses a sticky situation for the corporate recreation folks to sort
    out.  If it were up to me, I'd bend over backward to accommodate the
    paint ball enthusiasts, if for no other reason than to demonstrate that 
    the corporations means it when we espouse "Valuing differences."

Re .27:

>Even so, splattering someone with paint seems (to those of us not inclined to
>play such a game) to be an insult to one's person (dignity?).  Another good
>equity test might be to see if Digital would support custard pie flinging
>contests. 

"
            <<< MPGS::STO$ADMIN:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EMPSERVICES.NOTE;1 >>>
                -< **** EMPLOYEE SERVICES AND RECREATION **** >-
================================================================================
Note 126.0              UNITED WAY DUNK BOOTHS SEPT 18/19             No replies
NUGGET::KNEELAND "Rebecca Kneeland -- 237-2904"       8 lines  15-SEP-1989 16:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UNITED WAY DUNK BOOTHS.....SPREAD THE WORD

WHEN:   MONDAY, SEPT 18TH   11:00 A.M. - 6:30 P.M.
        TUESDAY, SEPT 19TH   6:00 A.M. - 12:30 NOON

WHERE:  OUTSIDE SHR CAFETERIA

3 BALLS FOR $1.00 ALL PROCEEDS GO TO THE UNITED WAY OF CENTRAL MASS.
"
				/AHM
P. S.  Perhaps someone from SHR can explain why no one wore a bathing suit to
the event.

    I suspect the problem has to do with how popular the "sport" is.  We
    can't expect DIGITAL to sponsor any recreational activities that
    involve more than 1 employee.  Think of the implications of .25:
    
>                                                          ... if DEC is to
>sponsor employee activities then it ought it sponsor ALL legal activities
>or none at all.
    
    "ALL legal activities?"  Think about it.  If I decide to take a trip
    with some other DEC people, should the company sponsor that?  Buy
    t-shirts?  If so, where do I sign up?

�    "ALL legal activities?"  Think about it.  If I decide to take a trip
�    with some other DEC people, should the company sponsor that?  Buy
�    t-shirts?  If so, where do I sign up?

    	By legal I think they were referring to the activity being legal
    and as long as it is legal it should be allowed to be a club. In
    regards to your comment about going on a trip, that is perfectly fine
    according to the rules and regulations. However, you will find that
    Digital does not subsidize travel expenses, but they will contribute to
    the T-shirts. So by all means form a travel league, but most of the
    money is going to come out of the league's pocket not Digital's (money
    coming from the league's pocket is put there by its members).

    							-Keith

    On the safety issue, a recent study showed paintball to result in
    0.31 injuries (resulting in lost time from work) per thousand players 
    per year.  Golf, which Digital supports in a very big way, resulted
    in something like 11 injuries per thousand.  As to the relative
    number of players around, something like 1 in 200 US citizens has
    palyed the game.  It is safe.  It is popular.  
    
    Who made this decision and why?
    
    --Pete

    
    When trying to get funding for co-ed soccer, I've only dealt with one
    person at the corporate level.  It was always my impression this person 
    handled all the clubs.  Is it possible this decision isn't a Digital 
    decision.  Have you tried going further up the ladder to get this
    clarified?
    
    It is possible to get the rules changed.  For the longest time the
    women's soccer team couldn't get funding because they could play in
    a "comparable" (co-ed) league.  The co-ed league has no more than 5
    women out of 200 people and is rather rough for most of us.  We were
    able to convince them a change was needed  ;-).
    
    Good luck,
    Bobbi 

    In the Central Area, the Employee Activity Commitee gets funded
    by a headcount-based allocation each year. The EAC then meets and
    decides how to spend the money, which must cover all activities
    - of which sponsoring teams is just a small part.  
    
    The EAC gets requests each year to sponsor teams and decides which
    ones to sponsor and for how much.
    
    I imagine in's much the same in other areas.
    

    RE: .33
    
    	The money does not concern me as much as not having sponsorship.
    
    
    RE: a few back.
    
    
    	A question was asked about safety, I did not have the specific
    information at that time so I did not enter anything. However, I now
    have the information but I do not intend on entering the entire
    article, just the specifics.

    	The data was collected from the National Safety Council and Control
    Systems Inc.. 


    		Sport		 	Yearly injuries per 1000 participants
		-----			-------------------------------------

    		Lacrosse				223.79
    		Baseball				 27.67
    		Football				 27.50
    		Wrestling				 27.37
    		Rugby					 23.14
    		Basketball				 22.04
    		Hockey					 12.46
    		Boxing					 11.34
    		Bicycle Riding				 11.30
    		Soccer					 10.54
    		Gymnastics				  7.13
    		Volleyball				  4.43
    		Snow Skiing				  3.44
    		Snowmobiling				  2.86
    		Ice Skating				  2.79
    		Racquetball				  2.53
    		Handball				  2.42
    		Water Skiing				  1.90
    		Fishing					  1.37
    		Swimming				  1.30
    		Golf					  1.13
    		Tennis					  1.09
    		Boating					  0.92
    		Archery					  0.66
    		Bowling					  0.50
    		PAINTBALL				  0.31


    	

    Some of us in Colorado Springs are contemplating the formation of
    an Alpine/Climbing Club.  Climbing probably goes off the scale shown
    in .34 for injuries/1000 participants.
    
    I'm just curious to know if anybody knows of another DEC sponsored
    climbing club or of any previous efforts to create such a club in other
    parts of the company.  I'm a novice at forming any sort of club at DEC,
    so all information is welcome.
    
    Randy Marks
    

	There is a conference at DSSDEV::CLIMBING were other people
	interested in climbing may be found. One or more of them may
	be able to help you.

			Alfred

    	In case anyone is interested, Nestor Dutko and I drafted an appeal
    letter to Corporate and sent it off this morning. I have removed the
    names in the letter (except mine) because I do not know if you can post
    someone's name without their approval. A copy of the letter is attached
    to this note, I will let you know when and if we hear anything.

    						Regards,
    						  -Keith

    

    
    +---------------------------+ TM		
    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |		
    | d | i | g | i | t | a | l |               interoffice memorandum
    |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
    +---------------------------+
                                                                  
					     DATE:  26-Sep-1989
	TO: --------------    		     FROM:  Keith Griffin
  						    Nestor Dutko 
	CC: --------------		     DTN:   381-1289/381-2625
	    --------------		     LOC/MAIL STOP:  ZKO3-4/Y02	
	    --------------		     ENGNET NODE: STAR::GRIFFIN
							  STAR::DUTKO 

SUBJECT:  Request for review of formation of Digital sponsored Paintball league

	After playing paintball on two separate occasions (April 29th and
September 9th), a few of us considered forming a Digital paintball league. 
This was after numerous employees, which also participated, stated how much
fun it was, and requested holding events on a regular basis. 

	In gathering information regarding the steps to form a league I first 
contacted ------------- from our local employee activities department on Sept
11th.  ----- indicated that she would research what was needed, and forward
the information to us.  Shortly thereafter, we received the information and
upon reviewing the document began to plan the league.  

	To bolster employee participation, we drafted a notice that was then
submitted to the publications the New Hampshire View, and Digital This Week
(DTW).  Upon not hearing from ---------------, editor for DTW, I contacted her
by phone to check on the league posting.  She then informed me that she had
spoken to you, ------, and you informed her that posting the notice would be
inappropriate.

	Upon contacting you, I (Keith) was informed that the game of 
paintball would create too much liability for Digital.  In addition, having 
employees pointing guns at each other as a sponsored Digital function was not 
a good idea.  The statement shocked me greatly, therefore I did not pursue the
conversation any further. Since that time we have done some research on the
sport of paintball, and would like to present certain facts in hope that the
denial for sponsorship can be overturned. 

	We have since contacted an attorney, ----------------------------- of
Digital's law department.  The topic of conversation was Digital's liability
in sponsoring employee activities.  ------------- informed us that as long as
all participants signed a waiver, Digital would not be subject to any greater
degree of liability than any other sponsored Digital sport.  In particular,
Hockey, Softball, and Soccer were discussed as examples of activities already
sponsored. 

	In researching the liability, or injury statistics for the sport of
Paintball, I collected the following information. The attached statistics 
were collected from the National Safety Council publication of "Accident
Facts", and Control Systems Inc..  (Control Systems Inc. is the administrator
of the Assurance Buyers Cooperative's accident insurance plan for Player
Protection Insurance.)  The statistics are based on the number of injuries 
incurred by playing a particular sport for the period of 1 year.  Clearly,
paintball has a lower number of accidents than other Digital sponsored
sports listed in the statistics.

	To quote the closing sentence of the philosophical statement as
published in the U.S. Clubs and Leagues Subsidy Guidelines,

    "Participation fosters team building, skill development, leadership, 
     emotional and physical well-being."

We believe strongly, that the formation of a paintball league will foster
these traits, and does not violate any restrictions as set forth in that
document.  Therefore, we hope our request for the formation of the league will
be approved.  Should you have any other issues regarding this request, or
have other documentation that lists restrictions of which we are unaware, 
please let us know.





		"Injury Statistics at Home, at Work, at Play"
	   (source: National Safety Council, and Control Systems Inc.)



	Sport		 	Yearly injuries per 1000 participants
	-----			-------------------------------------

    	Lacrosse				223.79
    	Baseball				 27.67
    	Football				 27.50
    	Wrestling				 27.37
    	Rugby					 23.14
    	Basketball				 22.04
    	Hockey					 12.46
    	Boxing					 11.34
    	Bicycle Riding				 11.30
    	Soccer					 10.54
    	Gymnastics				  7.13
    	Volleyball				  4.43
    	Snow Skiing				  3.44
    	Snowmobiling				  2.86
    	Ice Skating				  2.79
    	Racquetball				  2.53
    	Handball				  2.42
    	Water Skiing				  1.90
    	Fishing					  1.37
    	Swimming				  1.30
    	Golf					  1.13
    	Tennis					  1.09
    	Boating					  0.92
    	Archery					  0.66
	Bowling					  0.50
    	PAINTBALL				  0.31

    re: .37
    As far as the statistics go, they do not present a complete picture
    of liability exposure.  For instance, bowling and archery are
    "comparable" in the statistics provided.  Based upon my experience with
    those sports, archery has a significantly higher potential for serious
    injury or death than does bowling.  Its easy to count the number of
    injuries/1000; its much more difficult to quantify the danger of a
    sport in terms of liklihood of an injury incident weighted by severity
    of injury.
    
    I wish you luck with getting approval for your club.  You may be paving
    the way for our climbing club!
    
    re: a few back.  Yes I read the CLIMBING notes file and have contacted
    a few folks who contribute to it with regard to the existence of a DEC
    climbing club elsewhere in the company.  So far, I have come up with
    nothing.
    
    	Randy

Well written and to the point.  I expect that they will 'rule' in favor of
paint ball.

	- mark

   	This notes is the same as .40 except the mail message was removed
    because the moderators of this conference said it violates policy. I
    fail to see how someone responding (on behalf of the organization) from
    corporate about an issue that affects every employee is 'violating
    policy'. The information is public because it is about a league and not
    and individual. Anyway I have to paraphrase the mail message.
    
    	Do you have good taste? If you do how do you know you do? If you
    don't how do you know you don't? The point being that good taste is a
    matter of one's opinion. Corporate is now saying the game is not in
    "good taste", sheeesh what next!
    
    	The policy that is referenced states, and I quote, "Activites
    should be in good taste appropriate for the local area and fitted to
    the needs, interests and abilites of our employees regardless of age,
    race, sex, handicap or shift worked."
                                             
    
    		MAIL MESSAGE REMOVED, THE CONTENT BASICALLY SAID..
    
    
    		PAINTBALL IS NOT IN "GOOD TASTE".
    
    							-Keith
    

    Re: .41 by STAR::GRIFFIN:
    
    Did you get any detailed explanation on why the game is 'not in good
    taste'?  If so, was it close to my reasoning in replies .18 and .27?
    That is, did they get hung up on the _assault_ aspect of the game.

    Good taste?!?!  I guess I'd better give up on a DEC-sponsored
    mud-wrestling team.

    
    	No it was not the assault aspect of the game, it was the "pointing
    of guns at employees" that was the problem.
    
    							-Keith
    

    Digital has many military customers, and supports vendors who develop
    products specifically for military use. Some people find this in bad
    taste. I know an ex-employee who left the company because she was 
    offended by the fanfare with which we publicize our association with
    the military.
    
    I think Digital is hardly in a position to take a corporate stance
    against paintball.
    
    					Val
    

    RE: .43
    
>    Good taste?!?!  I guess I'd better give up on a DEC-sponsored
>    mud-wrestling team. 
 
    If you're worried about good taste, I suggest you try 
    jello wrestling instead. 

        

    RE:
    
    POINTING GUNS AT EACH OTHER.
    
    Since when did paintball involve pointing guns at people? Guns kill, I
    don't believe that is the desired, or even possibe, outcome of paintball.
    
    Dave
    

Speaking of pointing guns at each other...

Have all the Water Uzi games at DEC facilities completely stopped?

It's pretty ironic that in a country where it's citizens are allowed to
bear REAL arms by constitutional right, that Digital has seen fit to
introduce a 'rule' that bans us from using PLAY guns IN FUN.

Craig.

Re: .-1;
>                    -< It is not a gun, it is a weapon :-) >-

WEAPON n. 1. Any instrument used for fighting. 2. Any means of attack
or defense.

GUN n. 1. a weapon (see above <ed>) with a metal tube from which a projectile
is discharged by the force of an explosive.    


Seems that both definitions don't fit in the strict sense.  It does RESEMBLE
a gun in form and function, however the point is that it is specifically
designed NOT to hurt people, which is exactly opposite from the design
objective of a real gun.
Kevin

        Clearly, the decision that paint-ball leagues should not be
        allowed has been made by someone, and I presume (although I
        have no way of knowing, since the person making the decision
        has not been identified here, and perhaps should not be) that
        this person is someone BELOW the level of Ken Olsen.  I'd even
        bet that it's someone below the level of John Sims.  
        
        Somehow, the idea of rejecting a paint-ball league on the grounds
        of "taste" strikes me as not "doing the right thing".  I could see
        rejecting it on other criteria, provided those criteria were
        applied objectively and consistently to all sports, but "taste"
        just doesn't sound like something that can be applied objectively.
        Further, using "taste" as a criterion seems to me to reject the
        goal we claim to espouse of "valuing differences".  After all,
        some people *like* paint-ball and consider it good, clean fun
        and to be in good taste.
        
        Now, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I were in your
        shoes and I really wanted Digital sponsorship for a paint-ball
        league, I'd use the open door policy to escalate the matter to
        higher levels.  In fact, I'd be sure that John Sims knew what was
        going on, and if he didn't turn it around or provide a better
        explanation why, I'd take it all the way to K.O. 
        
        Tom

I wonder if Digital would sponsor a karate, kung-fu or fencing team?

Are those considered 'not in good taste'?

Lee

.53> I wonder if Digital would sponsor a karate, kung-fu or fencing team?

Well I don't know if they sponsor it or not, but I do remember being in the ZK03
lobby a few months ago and seeing two people in the conference room off the lobby
fencing in full regalia.

The fencing club used to meet in ZK01 on the third floor.  They now meet
somewhere in MKO.  As far as I can tell, the decision to move was space and
locality, not "taste".

Maybe some one from the fencing club would care to reply.

				Bill

    
    	Who is John Sims? How would contacting him affect my situation?
    
    	Does anyone know who runs the fencing club? I would like to get in
    touch with them. Somehow I don't see how corporate can say, pointing
    guns at employees is not in good taste, but pointing swords is.
    
    
    						Thanks,
    					 	  -Keith
    

	John Sims is the VP for Strategic Resources (or some such title).
	Among other things personnel reports to him. One assumes he has
	some influence with people who fund leagues and teams.

	Have you looked into other companies to see if they have paintball
	teams or leagues? If other companies do, especially if they are
	other high tech companies or customers, that may help you make a
	case for paintball not being in poor taste.

			Alfred

    Keith,
    	Would it be possible for you to give us noters the persons
    node::name who responded with the 'taste' problem?  I feel this person
    is using their OWN PERSONAL values and not DEC's.  I would be willing
    to send my personnel person a message expressing my dismay with
    personal values.  If my personal person is not helpful, then I will ask
    them who I should talk to.  It would be helpful to have the 'taste'
    problem persons name in my correspondence though!

    It is amazing what a few voices from the workers will do.

    	- mark

    A request from a co-moderator - please do not use this conference to
    put an individual employee "on trial", as some seem willing to do.
    
    I would suggest this issue be handled offline by those interested,
    and a report of the conclusions made here.
    
    		Steve

    Footnote to this discussion:

    "Amateur hockey has even hit the corporate ranks.  In hockey-crazed New
    England, for example, Digital Equipment Corp., based in Maynard, Mass.,
    has its own intramural non-check league with 14 teams and 250 players. 
    Digital also holds an annual North American tournament, which last year
    drew 24 teams from DEC offices throughout New England, as well as from
    Colorado, Toronto, and Montreal."

    "I grinned from ear-to-ear" in FORBES October 16, 1989, page 278, Neal
    Santelmann

        Apparently not everyone considers paintball to be in bad taste.
        This morning I picked up a copy of the October 9, 1989 issue
        of New Hampshire View, the southern New Hampshire equivalent
        of Digital This Week.  On page 4, there's an article about
        various clubs and leagues, and the last paragraph says "For
        information on a Paintball League which is just forming, see
        the Spit Brook Outlook page."  That happens to be page 5.
        
        On page 5, there's an article in the lower left corner that's
        titled "It's New, It's Colorful....  Digital Paintball League to
        Form", which describes the proposed league, the fun sport of
        paintball, the names of four contact persons (including Keith
        Griffin, author of the topic note, as well as Nestor Dutko, Gary
        Allison, and Ed Barth), and the location of the Paintball Notes
        conference (on TRPTWN::). 
        
        If paintball is in bad taste, then why did this newletter print a
        glowing description that makes it sound like good, clean fun.
        
        Tom

In typical Digital fashion, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is
doing.

The deadline for New Hampshire View was clearly more than 5 days ago, and as
of then, Keith Griffin was still seeking permission to form the league.

It's unlikely that anyone at New Hampshire view knew of the problem.

The positive, glowing description was certainly written by one of the people
trying to form the league.

/john

    	Yes I submitted an article to NH View, back in late August I
    believe. However, some of the stuff mentioned in .61 I did not type. I
    will let you now if it is exactly what I typed or not when I get a copy
    of it.

    	As far as the problem goes, I had approval from my local employee
    activities department before I submitted the articles. It was only
    after I submitted the article to DTW that the problems arose (it was
    sent to DTW in early September). 

    	Since the problems have started, I have curtailed all plans for
    announcing the league, but left what was already disseminated alone
    (this included leaflets as well as the NH View article). 

    	It still shows that peoples tastes vary widely, and using that as
    an argument to disallow something is wrong (in my opinion of course).
    
    							-Keith
    

	Keith,

	I'm curious to know what response you get to the article.

	If enough people express interest, maybe you can use this
	as employee backing for the league.

	Dan