Conference 7.286::digital

    I'd start with your Cost Centre manager, who presumably told you that
    it was OK to get the phone line at home.  Let her take it up with Petty
    Cash, and/or use her support to escalate it up the chain. 
    
    Or, if your CC manager tells you that you're out of luck, swallow the
    bill ($18 is NOT worth dying for!) and hand 'em in every two months
    from now on!
    
    						Nigel

>                      <<< Note 904.2 by MEMIT::BRADSHAW >>>
>                          -< Ignorance is no excuse >-

    When did Digital become a government??  Ignorance is an excuse.  If I took
    the time to find out every policy that effected me in my job, I would have
    no time to do the JOB.  I would hope that there is enough flexibility in
    any system to "Do the right thing" which I would interpret in this case as
    "Ok this time but don't do it again".

    Lee G.

There shouldn't be any problem.

Send the expense report to the VP's finance manager (who will have signature
authority) and be done with it.

DEC is REQUIRED to reimburse you for the expense they authorized.  If there's
an extra approval step required for a four-month old bill, that's not your
problem (except for the slight bit of extra work it takes).

/john

    Why does it take 4 months to understand a simple policy on petty
    cash? I think you should try the cost center manager asking for
    an exception, and you should try to turn the bills in faster.
    
    While DEC is required to pay the authorized bill, you have some
    responsibility to be timely.
    

    .3 is the best, quickest, lest painful answer....send it to the finance
    manager.  
    
    

    I have the EXACT same situation as the base note.  The way it was
    resolved was to get an exception signature (fairly easy to do,
    especially with the original copy of the bill in the expense voucher).
    To avoid this problem in the future, I told petty cash that I would be
    submitting these things MONTHLY in the future.  Their response: Good,
    then we won't have this extra signature problem anymore!
    
    Good luck
    Jon

    As the author of the base note, let me add some more details:
    
    1)Not accepting bills over three months old is a new policy; when
    I first got the phone line the only restriction was that you had
    to submit *at least three* months of bills together.
    
    2)Petty cash changed the policy with no advance notice, and WITHOUT
    TELLING ANYONE.
    
    3)I don't care about the $18; I can find somewhere else to bury
    it.  I've just had too many run-ins with beancounters recently,
    and rather than blindly accept their stupid rules, I'm ready to
    escalate things to try and get the rules changed.
                                           
    Steve
    

    Instead of trying to change THE RULES why not submit the phone
    bills ON TIME, RIGHT AFTER YOU GET THEM. There is no pain in
    doing the RIGHT THING.
    
    Rules always change. It seems when so many people attempt to 
    bend them, someone has to come along and tighten them up to
    pull those that bend back into line with what is right for the 
    department making such rules. 
    
    You see... you knew 3 max was the rule/policy... BUT you wait
    and turn in 4. You were probably the last of many who tried,
    you were the "straw that broke the camels back" so to speek.
    
    			My two cents.
    

    RE: .9
    
    Did you read .8?
    
    The person DID NOT KNOW that 3 max was the rule.  He was NOT just
    blatantly refusing to follow the silly little rules; he did not know
    the rule because no one told him and he was probably too busy doing his
    job to take the time and trouble to find out.
    
    I have known people who spent more time worrying about upsetting some
    silly bureaucrat than doing their jobs, and they generally aren't very
    productive Digital employees.
    
    As far as this specific situation, John Covert was on the money when he
    said that Digital MUST reimburse employees for approved business
    expenses.  And it is the Finance organization's JOB to process the
    paperwork to make it happen.  If they don't want (or refuse) to do
    their job, then they should be forced to.
    
    To the author of .0:  RIGHT ON!  Take it up the line in the Finance
    organization.  And good luck!
    
    							Pat

    RE: .9
    
    did you bother to read my note before replying?
    
    >>>    bills ON TIME, RIGHT AFTER YOU GET THEM. 
    
    You CAN'T turn them in immediately; they won't accept less than
    three at a time.
    
    >>>    You see... you knew 3 max was the rule/policy... BUT you wait

    I did NOT know 3 was the max, because petty cash never went to the
    trouble of telling anyone when they changed the rule!!!
    
    What benefit does DEC get from this rule?
    
    Steve
    

    RE: .8
    
    My advice:
    
    You have already wasted enough of your valuable time trying to deal
    with Beancountitis. My recommendation is ... $18 / 22.5 � a mile = ...
    
    If bumping it up to their manager for exception approval doesn't work, 
    why bother to push for the change? They'll just change the rules again
    and confuse you some more. Save the grief, aggravation, and time, and
    engineer us something good instead! Your time spent engineering
    something will hopefully generate ROI. Your time screwing around with
    "the checkers of the checkers" is wasted. Let KO deal with that.
    
    Enough of MY time spent on this.    :^)
    
    BTW ... I don't know where you work, but the facility we go to for
    Petty Cash reimbursements doesn't check ANYTHING anymore. They issued a
    memo about 6 months ago and said, (basically), "We aren't checking
    anything you submit. Your MANAGER is responsible for what you submit.
    If he/she signs your Voucher, then he/she is responsible if you did
    something wrong that gets picked up on an audit. Your MANAGER is
    responsible, not us."  
    
    
    Geeeeezis, what a refreshing thought ... a manager .... actually being
    held accountable for something ....
    
    
        


    /se
    
    
    
    

    A couple of years ago, we got a memo saying expense reports filed more
    than a certain period after DECUS would not be signed.  I don't know
    what justification Digital could have for refusing to pay money it
    owed, but, in my case, I had not used up all of my cash advance.  The
    obvious thing to do was fill out the expense report and hold onto it
    until the period expired . . .
    
    
    				-- edp 

    
    I did the same thing for a $1500 trip... I just forgot..  It just
    goes to the finance person under the VP and they yell a bit and
    sign the thing..  
    
    I guess in these times of too much cash on hand they don't want
    to make the extra $33 interest they made on my money.
    
    I would submit the bill every month. You should not have to pay
    the money out of your pocket.  I heard it costs them over $10 to process
    each expense report (hear say) not to mention the inconvience.

    Jon
    

    As a first step toward getting this policy changed, I've sent the
    following note to our site finance manager.  If this doesn't resolve
    it, I'll escalate the matter to Bruce Ryan (VP of finance).
    
    
    

+---------------+
| d i g i t a l |                          Interoffice Memorandum
+---------------+

To: <name deleted>                         Date:  September 1, 1989
                                           From:  Steve Susswein
CC: <name deleted>                         Dept:  Storage Architecture
    <name deleted>                         DTN :  522-2722
                                           Loc :  CXO1-2/N26
                                           ENet:  SSAG::SUSSWEIN


Subj:  Problem with change in petty cash policy

I recently encountered a problem with a new petty cash policy in Colorado
Springs.  The new policy and the way it was implemented is wasting many hours
of engineers' time, and causing an untold amount of frustration.  While it
would be easy for me to simply accept the loss of $18, I feel that as a good
corporate citizen it is my responsibility to point out the flaw in this policy
and to work toward having it revised.

Many engineers have terminals at home and are reimbursed for dedicated phone
lines.  At the time my line was installed, I was told to accumulate at least
three months worth of bills before submitting them, as a way to reduce
paperwork.  My line is being disconnected this month, so rather than submit
an extra voucher for one month, I accumulated four months of bills before
submitting them this week.  Petty cash refused to accept the voucher,
claiming that their new policy was not to accept any bills more than three
months old.  I then talked to <name deleted>, who confirmed that this was indeed
their policy, and that I would not be reimbursed for this business related
expense.  He also claimed that any exceptions to this policy require VP
approval.

This new policy was implemented with no advance notice, and without notifying
any of the employees affected.

I believe that this policy is simply wrong; Digital gains no advantage from
it, and is in any case liable to reimburse employees for business required
expenses.  If some cutoff period is necessary, then nine to twelve months would
be much more appropriate.  Any changes to reimbursement policy should be
communicated to all concerned employees, with such communication taking place
well before the implementation date.

Is this a site policy or corporate policy?  Will it be necessary for me to
pursue this to the VP level to have it changed?
    
                                            

    I received a call from the site finance manager this morning:
    
    According to him, there is NO policy to this effect, and it was
    just a case of the petty cash manager being over-beaurocratic
    and trying to make life easier on himself.  He's had the issue
    explained to him, and in the future there shouldn't be any problem
    getting reimbursed for bills more than 3 months old.
    
    The issue has been resolved, I've gotten my money, and hopefully
    petty cash has been stepped on hard enough to make them think twice
    next time.
    
    Steve
    
    

    Our group just got reminded about aged expenses too.  Here I mean misc.
    expenses like interplant travel, not trip expenses (which petty cash
    hounds you about no end especially if you took an advance; on the trip
    form it says something like one or two weeks to submit those, that is
    likely why they were taking a hard line on DECUS).
    
    Back to the misc:   Seems that someone submitted a mileage reimbursement
    for a long while back (1 year).   It took a VP signature to get it
    approved. Bothering VPs for things like that *is* unrealistic; submit your
    paperwork in a reasonable time frame; I think it was three months.
    Maybe it should have been pursued through finance rather than going to
    the VP, but that is something to look at the next time.

    re: .17---I'm glad you solved this problem, and I hope all readers of
    this conference learn from your experience: as you said, it is possible
    to fight city hall...and win.
    
    I have a sneaky suspicion that some of Digital's internal problems are
    due to inefficiencies and insensitivities in the "cracks" between the
    functional organizations.  The case you found, in which a petty cash
    manager pretends that there is a "new policy" which makes his job
    easier at your expense, is a good example.  Recently reported cases
    (in this conference) of managers interpreting the Bel Cross memo to
    mean "no non-work-related Notes conferences" is another.
    
    I wonder if this would be a good way to combat such attitudes: if a
    manager tells you that there is a "new policy" which changes things
    in a way that you don't like, ask to see the policy.  If it isn't
    part of the Policy and Procedures manual, or hasn't been communicated
    from top management in a formal way, then tell the manager that you
    don't think there is any such policy, and you won't obey it until
    there is.
    
    That's risky, I know, and it can stifle innovation, but the alternative
    is to let "policy" be created by administrators who don't see the good
    of the company as a whole.
        John Sauter

    > I wonder if this would be a good way to combat such attitudes: if a
    > manager tells you that there is a "new policy" which changes things in
    > a way that you don't like, ask to see the policy.  If it isn't part of
    > the Policy and Procedures manual, or hasn't been communicated from top
    > management in a formal way, then tell the manager that you don't think
    > there is any such policy, and you won't obey it until there is.

    John, your point was excellent.  I think there's an awful lot of antics
    going on like those of the petty cash manager described in this note
    string.  And it would be wonderful to think that it could be changed by
    employees who simply refused to follow such "policies" until convinced
    that they're real.  But I don't think that's a wise thing for any
    employee to do.

    Blatantly refusing to do what your manager directs you to do is
    insubordination if I'm not mistaken.  An employee could be put on
    warning and eventually fired for such action.  I don't believe for one
    minute that Personnel would back an employee whose manager put him/her
    on warning for doing something like that.  Whether or not they *should*
    back the employee is a subject for another note on another day; my
    belief is that they *wouldn't*.  And even if they did, the employee
    would have gotten him/herself into a career-limiting battle with the
    manager which could only have a detrimental effect on the employee's
    welfare in the long run.

    I had a manager *force* me to pay some employees according to seniority
    once, with absolutely no regard for performance.  I pushed back *hard*
    on my manager, and finally took the matter to Personnel, sure that
    something so blatantly contrary to our basic philosophy would never be
    allowed to stand.  They backed my manager, and I was forced to do what
    he wanted.  Had I refused, I would have been guilty of insubordination
    and would have been disciplined accordingly.

    It isn't an easy problem to solve.

    							Pat
    

    Pat is right about it not being easy, but it is possible to "push back"
    short of insubordination.  In a case like the one that Pat cites 
    in 904.20, in which your manager demands that you do something that is
    clearly *contrary* to published policy, I think ODP is the only
    effective recourse.  I agree that Personnel won't help; that isn't
    their job.
    
    If the "policy" that you object to didn't come from top management,
    then ODP will eventually get you to someone who's authority is being
    circumvented.  Getting that person to do something about the problem
    may be difficult, of course.
        John Sauter

    > I agree that Personnel won't help; that isn't their job.
    
    One of Personnel's most important functions is supposed to be ensuring
    that P&P is adhered to.  I disagree with you; I believe it *is* very
    much their job.
    
    In my particular instance, I knew the manager above my immediate
    manager, and was absolutely sure I wouldn't get any help from him,
    particularly with Personnel backing my manager instead of me.  I also
    believe (and still do) that if I had carried it one level higher (to
    the Country level), it would have eventually meant the end of my
    Digital career.  So I did that job till I could find another one, and a
    new manager with it.
    
    And that time I lucked out and got a really good manager, the kind
    people in this conference talk about all the time.  If they were all
    like him, half the notes in this conference would never have been
    entered...
    
    							Pat
    
    BTW, the manager who did that to me has been very successful in Digital
    and is now in a very high position.
    

    I know this isn't related directly to 'petty cash' but it is related
    to some of the recent replies.
    
    When I was young and naive (about 4 years ago) I decided to fight for a
    cause against my manager. The subject is not important, but as it
    happened it related to how much relocation benefits I should receive. I
    believe up until this day that my case was just. Well what happened
    was that I talked to my manager about it, he disagreed with me. I
    involved personnel. To my surprise then (but certainly not now) they
    totally backed my manager. I got absolutely no support from them. I
    then got my manager's manager involved. I guess that is ODP. Well
    when he started implying, very subtly, to me that he wouldn't back my
    permanent residency application, if I continued to be a nuisance. I
    decided it was time to back down and write the whole episode up to
    experience.
    
    Since then I have chosen my battles (luckily there have been very very
    few) very carefully. My lessons were:
    
    	1, Never expect personnel to back an employee against a manager,
    	   they won't.
    	2, If you have more to lose than your manager don't get into an
    	   argument, even if you are convinced that you are right.
    	3, Be very very very careful with ODP. Unless you are convinced
    	   that you can take your case to VP level and win or have good
    	   reason to believe that a legal suit against the company can win
    	   then DON'T BOTHER. You'll get labelled with 'If he isn't part of
    	   the solution then he is the problem'.
    
	I believe that even if your case is just, the best that will happen
    	is that your manager will get a black mark or two from his manager.
    	If the same problem occurs with other employees your manager may
    	end up getting 'reorged'. But in any case it won't directly do you
    	any good. In other words if you can't resolve something short of
    	confrontation then don't bother.
    
        Dave
    

Boy, I've never had to us ODP in my eight years here and from what I've
read about it and people's experience with it in this topic and others,
I sure hope I never do because it sounds as if is a lot a retoric.

- George

    Re: Very Petty cash
    
    in ten years I'm had about 1/2 dozen instances when Very Petty cash and
    I have had a disagreement.  Since I don't work for VPc, the question of
    insubordination has never come up.  My procedure is simple, first the
    department co-ordinator takes the reimbursement request to them, if
    there is a hassle, I go down, always with exactly the same paperwork
    and try to process it.  In all but one case this was all that was
    required.  In one case I had to write a memo to them and my manager
    demanding a meeting with their cc manager and mine to resolve why they
    were not promptly reimbursing me.  Then I got my money without having
    to have the meeting.
    
    These run-ins have normally been caused by either me trying to save the
    company money (use a local cleaner ratehr than an inflated price hotel
    valet service, use flat rate long distance rather than billing detailed
    calls) or by arbitrary changes to the manner in which bills must be
    submitted (Oh, now we are using form XYZ rather than ABC) ...
    
    I always figured it was a company expense and they should pay it.
    Also since VPc has a policy of not issuing two advances to one person,
    I have a policy of not advancing the company more than one thing at a
    time.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

    I guess I don't understand why the bill isn't being handled in what I
    always considered the correct way, to wit
    
    1. Get the authorization from telecomm.
    
    2. Have it signed by the CC manager.
    
    3. Thereafter, just open the bill (mailed jointly to you and Digital at
    Digital); verify the amount (should be the same each month, assuming you 
    have a local gateway); and forward it to telecomm as they expect it to be.
    
    I haven't had any problems in over two years (and three CCs).
    
    Gary
    
    P.S.  AND...my money never leaves my pocket.

    It seems as though some people don't have any thing better to do. 
    Everyone needs something to complain about.  
    
    When you hired on with Digital - the only commitment was for you to
    get a paycheck for what you were hired to do.  Digital does not owe
    you anything because Digital hired you.
    
    Maybe a survey should be taken with everyone who has used the pettycash
    services, as to how they would feel if the local pettycash offices were
    to shut down and all vouchers would then need to be forwarded to
    Corporate.  The individual(s) who work in Petty Cash do not have the
    authority to change policy at their own desire. (If they were able to
    do that, many people wouldn't get anything).  Corporate Personnel &
    Policy manuals are available and do change periodically.  It is not the
    responsibility of Petty Cash to inform YOU on what specific changes
    have occurred.  You do have some responsibility here.  You sign your
    name on the voucher - means you are responsible.  
    
    If you recall - prior to 1987, Petty Cash accepted copies of receipts. 
    Since then, only original receipts are accepted.  That is because
    someone got caught by the IRS using the receipts - copies for the
    company - originals for IRS.  DEC got their hands slapped.  
    
    If you are willing to spend one week working in pettycash, please feel
    free to make the offer.
    
    Kevin Detmer
    

re .27

I fail to see the point of your reply.

The situation described in .0 was a case of someone in a local petty cash
organization changing policy. As you point out, they do not have the authority
to do so but it took some degree of effort to reverse this unauthorized
decision.

Digital owes you the cost of expenses you incur as a result of business
activities. The attitude expressed in your para 2, viz
>    When you hired on with Digital - the only commitment was for you to
>    get a paycheck for what you were hired to do.  Digital does not owe
>    you anything because Digital hired you.
is precisely the attitude that people are complaining about. Reimbursing
expenses in a timely fashion is Petty Cash's job.

As for preferring local Petty Cash over Corporate, I have taken expense vouchers
to Corporate because I grew very tired of having to deal with the local Petty
Cash office when trying to claim expenses for travel that involved multiple
countries and therefore multiple exchange rates. Experience had shown that it
took less of my time, even when I included driving time.

gary

re Note 904.27 by COMET::READ "JOANNE READ"
signed Kevin Detmer
and claiming to be Petty Cash's Response

Who are you?  Joanne Read, Kevin Detmer, or some total idiot?  And what makes
you think you have the right to claim to be speaking for Petty Cash?

>    When you hired on with Digital - the only commitment was for you to
>    get a paycheck for what you were hired to do.  Digital does not owe
>    you anything because Digital hired you.

What?  When Digital causes me to incur a legitimate business expense, Digital
makes a committment to reimburse me for that expense in a timely fashion.

The rest of your note, especially the nonsense about receipts is just another
example of a service organization forgetting that it is here to serve.  The
tail wagging the dog.  There has been no change in the receipt policy in the
fifteen years I've been with DEC; your story about the IRS is not true.

/john

    What is a reasonable amount of time for paperwork to be processed so it
    can even be brought to petty cash?
    
    If I have been waiting for two weeks for reimbursment, is that more
    than enough time before I complain?
    
    If its not, what is the amount of time you should expect to wait to
    have all the paperwork signed for?  Does it matter what the expense is
    for?  This is for school costs, for I'm just curious...
    
    Gale

As has been said before in this discussion, it seems to depend
on exactly who is in the local chain between you and Petty Cash.
For myself, that chain is 3000 miles long and lasts anywhere from 2-16 weeks.
If you think an unreasonable (for your locale) amount of time has passed,
start tracing things and find out where the roadblock is.  Then you at least
know where to lean...

Kevin

    While reading this file, I developed a great deal of compassion for
    petty cash workers, and their managers who must deal with this type
    of attitude on a daily basis. Their job is not simply to keep DEC
    employees "happy", but also to protect "our" corporation. Most of
    us have stock in the company and would prefer that Petty Cash not
    hand out money indiscriminately. 
    
    The attitude that "if Petty Cash won't pay my 4 month old voucher,
    then I will find somewhere else to bury it", may be quite prevalent.
    It must keep these employees rather busy trying to find out where
    it's buried.  Petty Cash WILL reimburse employees for their vouchers,
    IF you have the appropriate signatures. It's your job to know the
    rules.
    
    Another noter was pleased that Petty Cash "was stepped on hard 
    enough to think twice next time". I hope not!  Petty Cash SHOULDN'T
    have to check anything. It SHOULD be the manager's responsibility
    to check their own dept. vouchers. Can we depend upon that?
    
    No, I don't work in Petty Cash. Yes, I DO give them a lot of credit
    for doing what they believe is "THE RIGHT THING".
    

    re: .32
    
    I just went back and re-read the previous 32 entries to try and
    understand .32.
    
    > The attitude that "if Petty Cash won't pay my 4 month old voucher,
    > then I will find somewhere else to bury it", may be quite prevalent.
    > It must keep these employees rather busy trying to find out where
    > it's buried.  Petty Cash WILL reimburse employees for their vouchers,
    > IF you have the appropriate signatures. It's your job to know the
    > rules.
    
    Please note that in the case of the 4 month old voucher, the local
    petty cash office made up a new "policy" to try to avoid paying the
    voucher.  The corporate policy had NOT changed.  Also, please note that
    .0 was told that he MUST accumulate at LEAST 3 months worth of vouchers
    before turning them in.  The last time I checked, 4 is greater than 3.
    
    > Another noter was pleased that Petty Cash "was stepped on hard 
    > enough to think twice next time". I hope not!  Petty Cash SHOULDN'T
    > have to check anything. It SHOULD be the manager's responsibility
    > to check their own dept. vouchers. Can we depend upon that?
    
    If you or I decide to make up our own "policy" to avoid doing our jobs,
    without it being properly approved, I would hope that we get stepped on
    REAL hard, and get told to do our job and stop trying to figure out how
    to avoid doing it.
    
    I would hope that in the future, you would please read the replies
    carefully before making statements that aren't supported by the facts.
    
    Bob_who_hopes_this_doesn't_start_another_rathole.
    

Dear .33,

Oh, you darned Texans are all alike!

Bruce

    I did read all the notes before replying, but I haven't heard Petty
    Cash say they made up this rule, or that they were simply trying to
    avoid paying an employee for expenditures, or that they encourage
    employees to save up their vouchers for three months.... They don't
    do that at my plant.  We are ALWAYS notified of changes by our
    secretaries.
    

    Petty cash oscillated back and forth for about a year on which form
    phone bills were to be submitted on (emp. exp. or misc. procurement)
    The notice always was verbal and at the window...
    
    I think they're getting better.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

re: .35

>    I did read all the notes before replying, but I haven't heard Petty
>    Cash say they made up this rule,

>>================================================================================
>>Note 904.0            Petty cash is living up to it's name            36 replies
>>ANRCHY::SUSSWEIN "He Who Dies With the Most Toys Wi" 27 lines   1-SEP-1989 11:54
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    
>>    Petty cash won't accept it, and won't reimburse me.  I talk to <name
>>    deleted> in petty cash, and am told that the "policy" is not to
>>    accept bills more than three months old, and that I'll have to eat
>>    the four month old phone bill.
    
>>================================================================================
>>Note 904.17           Petty cash is living up to it's name              17 of 36
>>ANRCHY::SUSSWEIN "He Who Dies With the Most Toys Wi" 15 lines   5-SEP-1989 15:19
>>                 -< Issue resolved - You CAN fight city hall! >-
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    I received a call from the site finance manager this morning:
>>    
>>    According to him, there is NO policy to this effect, and it was
>>    just a case of the petty cash manager being over-beaurocratic
>>    and trying to make life easier on himself.  He's had the issue
>>    explained to him, and in the future there shouldn't be any problem
>>    getting reimbursed for bills more than 3 months old.
    
	Please re-read the above fragments from .0 and .17.  Sounds like
	someone in petty cash made up the policy on their own to me.

>   or that they were simply trying to avoid paying an employee for
>   expenditures,

	I'll concede here.  Perhaps the petty cash employee was simply too
	lazy to do his job.

>   or that they encourage  employees to save up their vouchers for three
>   months.... 

>>================================================================================
>>Note 904.0            Petty cash is living up to it's name            36 replies
>>ANRCHY::SUSSWEIN "He Who Dies With the Most Toys Wi" 27 lines   1-SEP-1989 11:54
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    reimburses me for.  When the line was installed, I was told to
>>    accumulate at least three months worth of bills before submitting
>>    them, in order to reduce paperwork.  No problem.

	Please re-read the above fragment from .0.  You are right, they don't
	ENCOURAGE employees to save up their vouchers for three months, it
	appears to be the the rule that they MUST save up three months worth
	before submitting them for payment.

	If you can show me where I have mis-read .0-.32, please tell me.

	Bob

I thought this issue was long since put to rest.

.0 had a problem with Petty Cash.  The Site Manager solved the problem; Petty
Cash was wrong.

End of story, except for a few people who still won't admit that Petty Cash
screwed up -- even with site management having agreed they did.

/john

    If petty cash is encouraging employees to turn in expense once a
    quarter anywhere in DEC, there is a serious problem.  Vice presidential
    approval is required for claims over two months old.  Petty cash sends
    out a regular report identifying people who have advances needing to be
    cleared.

Another sort of Petty Cash problem:

I guess paychecks are distributed through Petty Cash (at least in Marlboro).

I transferred from MRO to RCO (Rochester, NY) as of December 11, 1989. 
Unfortunately, when my personnel profile was changed, the pay site remained as 
MRO (yes, the form was filled out properly). So, I had a new cost center and
location, but my pay site was unchanged. 

Two weeks after my profile was changed I didnt receive a paycheck. I have 
direct deposit and since I was in Mass for the holidays, thought my paycheck 
would be waiting in Rochester. After the holidays, I found that there were not 
paychecks in Rochester. I had my RCO secretary look into it and we found out 
my pay site hadn't been changed. I then called my old secretary in MRO and 
asked her to get the paychecks from Petty Cash and send them to my wife (who 
was keeping track of the checkbook back in Mass). The secretary called me back 
and said that Petty Cash said they have no checks for Cost Center XXX (my new 
RCO cost center). 

Called Corporate Payroll.

	       Me:	"I haven't received any paychecks for a few weeks now."
Corporate Payroll:	"The checks have to be in MRO Petty Cash."
	       
Called MRO Petty Cash.

	       Me:	"Do you have any checks for cost center XXX?"
   MRO Petty Cash:	"Gee, I think someone asked us that recently and we
			didn't have them."
	       Me:	"Please look again, there's really nowhere else they 
			can be!"
   MRO Petty Cash:	"Oh, here they are, cost center XXX"
	       Me:	"How many are there?"
   MRO Petty Cash:	"Five"

I guess my question is how many paychecks have to be unclaimed before Petty 
Cash takes some action.... like attempting to contact the receipient, for 
example...?

Jim

    Sounds like a lax individual, don't blam pc....

    Most Petty Cash sites are required to hold unclaimed paychecks for 2
    weeks and then send them back to payroll.
    
    Bill

    Well, here in APO they're going to have to rename it to PETTY CASHLESS. 
    As of 4/1/91, they won't give out cash anymore - only traveler's checks
    or a check. Fortunately, we do have a full time DCU office so those of
    us with an account with DCU can cash the checks, but if you don't have
    an account at DCU, you're out of luck. They're also saying that in the
    future, you can have your money electronically transferred. Gee, it
    only took me 25 minutes this morning to get my mileage money.

    Same here in TWO.
    

    This is a corporation wide program. If I remeber correctly, someone 
    elsewhere in this file suggested EFT of expenses would be a great 
    idea. Implementation was already underway.
    
    Linda

I think (I'm not sure, will have to go read it again) that the same Mass
law that discusses payment of salaries requires employers to pay salaries and
employee expenses in cash, or, if paid by check, to provide arrangements for
cashing those checks.

That may mean that DEC has to arrange for DCU to cash DEC Petty Cash checks
even for non-members, or it may mean it is sufficient to issue the check
on any bank convenient to where the plant is located (where it could be
cashed by anyone, not just a person with an account at the bank).

In any case, I think DCU will cash DEC Petty Cash checks for non-members.

/john

    Well, all I know is that when I was at DCU cashing my mileage check, I
    asked the DCU teller about this. She said they won't cash a check for
    non-DCU members. If they wanted to cash their mileage checks, they
    would have to join. Your mileage (pun intended!) may vary.
    
    P@

    The DCU is a separate entity from Digital.  They don't have to cash
    any checks from Digital.  That's the position that most banks take
    regarding checks written from other financial institutions.
    
    With this new change, a question arises regarding the smaller
    facilities that don't have Petty Cash offices, or DCU facilities.  Does
    that mean that the individual needs to go to Petty Cash and DCU or
    their bank - wherever that may be?  BTW:  It is *NOT* your secretary's
    responsibility to go to the DCU for you.  (In fact, this could rathole
    this whole conversation, but I recall one temporary secretary who
    refused to sign & deposit a check for a manager who was due to travel,
    didn't have the time, etc., etc... anyway, he asked her to process his
    expenses, sign his check and deposit it into DCU.  She refused and
    didn't do it.  His checks he subsequently wrote bounced.  He was
    infuriated.  She was angry but stood firm.)  
    
    I can see more and more of this happening if Petty Cash no longer gives
    out cash, and only checks.  You'd be surprised what people think falls
    into the category of "secretary's responsibility."   

re .48:

How have facilities without petty cash offices done it in the past?

    I've always considered that paperwork (including expenses) is part of
    the job and this might have to be done after hours when time is
    tight,therefore I wouldn't even *think* of saddling somebody else with
    it,and I don't think that anyone who saddles his/her secretary with it
    is doing the entire job.
    
    My opinion...let the mudslinging begin...
    
    Ken

None of the Digital offices I've worked in have had a petty cash office.  I
had to submit an expense voucher and get a check in the mail and take it to my
bank and cash or deposit it.  What's wrong with that?

Bob

    There's nothing wrong with it, Bob.    
    
    I've worked in larger facilities where it is SOP for the sec. to take
    the completed expense voucher through the signatory loop, and then to
    Petty Cash for processing.  He or she (the sec.) would then hand the
    manager the resulting reimbursement (cash, check or money order).  The
    cost of maintaining Petty Cash offices in the smaller facilities
    probably couldn't be justified by the "low mileage" they would get...
    
    Now that I'm in a smaller facility, we drop our expense vouchers in the
    lobby, where they are logged and then picked up by a courier for
    processing once a day.  It is a pretty efficient system, with good
    turnaround.  However, if there is a need for cash, or an immediate
    turn-around, it becomes necessary to get in the car and drive to one of
    the larger facilities which does have a Petty Cash facility.  In my
    case, that isn't too bad, since my building is very close to the MRO
    cluster.  In any case, one must always hope that there is total
    accuracy in the process-- additions, signatures, receipts, proper form,
    etc., or the drive back and forth would become aggravating.
    
    One suggestion I would make to management of Petty Cash facilities:
    If you are scheduling a staff meeting, please consider the inconveni-
    ence experienced by the employee[s] who arrive during normal posted
    business hours, to find the office closed with a notice:  CLOSED DUE TO
    STAFF MEETING, WILL RE-OPEN AT X:XX.    
    
    My other suggestion would be that they put some type of system in place
    to routinely check to see if their signatory approval listings are
    current.  There have been some frustrating occurrences when they were
    not current.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    A note about signature authorization. Petty Cash does not have a 
    separate signature authorization file. They use the corporate file.
    It is *not* their responsibility to be sure the signatures are current.
    That responsibility lies with management. Making changes to the
    authority used to require sending a form to the FMC's for input. With 
    the new system, input of additions and changes lies with the
    businesses. If the signature file is not up to date, the fault lies
    with the business and the managers, NOT PETTY CASH. If someone is out 
    of town, it is up to him to delegate his signature authority. Anything 
    signed by his designee must have a copy of the delegation memo attached
    for the signature to be valid.
    
    My sympathies are with the people who must man the windows. They take a 
    lot of abuse, and much of it is from people who don't follow policy and
    procedure or work for someone who doesn't. 
    
    I worked as a clerk/secretary years ago, and I won't ask my secretary
    to do anything now that I didn't want to do then. I get my own advances
    process my own vouchers, and stand in line myself. 
    
    Linda
         

>    I worked as a clerk/secretary years ago, and I won't ask my secretary
>    to do anything now that I didn't want to do then. I get my own advances
>    process my own vouchers, and stand in line myself. 

	This doesn't seem right. Why should 5-20 people each stand in line
	when one secretary could do it for the whole group? Doing it your
	way makes the lines longer and the work take longer. Plus you lose
	all those peoples time. Digital doesn't pay me to wait in line.
	They pay me to do a lot of other stuff. They pay secretaries and
	managers to do paperwork and wait in line.

	Years ago I remember getting chewed out royal for spending 20 minutes
	at a copy machine making copies for work. The district manager
	pointed out that my secretary could do that as well or better then
	I. She could not however answer customers technical questions. So
	her taking messages while I made copies was not in the companies
	best interest.

	The way it's going I'm wondering what a secretary *is* supposed to
	do. I've heard them complain that they're too busy to answer phones.
	Handling petty cash is "not their job." Making copies is "not their
	job". What do they do?

			Alfred

    What a secretary's duties are depends upon the group you are in.
    
    When I was at PKO I was chewed out for doing my own copying, etc., 
    told they didn't pay me to do that sort of thing. 
    When I transferred to manufacturing I was told that the secretary 
    was too busy, I was to do my own copying, get my own advances, etc.
    Here in the FMC the secretary will do it, but I am in the habit myself.
    Plus she supports about 60 people. It's quicker and easier for me to 
    take 15 minutes.
    
    Linda
     

    ALFRED!  Are you SERIOUS?  I think you hit my "hot button."  Brace
    yourself for a lengthy dissertation.
    
    Nobody in here says that a secretary cannot/should not make copies,
    answer phones, etc., etc.  You have to consider the situation.  Is this
    a group where a sec. supports 10, 15, 20 people, including the manager
    of that group?  Chances are the sec. devotes most of her time (because
    of demand and/or direction) to supporting the manager of that group. 
    What the rest of the group gets in the way of support is usually mini-
    mal.  It is impossible to ask one person to give one-on-one administra-
    tive support to a group that large.  
    
    What a secretary does, as I mentioned, is usually defined by the
    demands of her manager[s], the size of the organization, and the skills
    level of the individual that they hired.
    
    Here are just a few examples of the many tasks that secs. can and do
    perform in a day:
    
    CALENDAR   - Where does the manager need to be today?  Are there any
                 meetings which must be confirmed?  Is there any pre-work
                 necessary for those meetings?  
    
               - Someone wants to book the manager's time.  This involves
                 travel and presentation preparation.  The sec. will 
                 determine if the request is being made of the appropriate
                 person, if the calendar permits it, if the manager can 
    		 be committed.  The sec. can and will commit the manager
     		 to that obligation.  [This of course depends on the 
     		 manager's personal style.  How much responsibility will
    		 she or he give to the secretary to make those
    		 commitments will vary.]
    
    	       - Schedule conflicts - The sec. knows the business, and knows
     		 her boss' priorities.  He/she can and does effectively
    		 deal with scheduling conflicts and handles appropriately.
    
    MAIL       - Many managers require their secretary to read and sort
    		 (prioritize) their mail.  Many will respond to requests or
    		 redirect them as appropriate.  This depends on the amount
    		 of responsibility that the manager allows.  By getting to
     		 know the business over time, many secretaries can effec-
     		 tively respond to requests without involving the manager.
    
               - The boss dictates several replies to memos, and a few
                 letters.  The sec. takes and transcribes dictation, and/or
                 provides transcription from cassette.  She transcribes and
                 mails on the boss' behalf.
    
    TRAVEL     - The sec. will coordinate meetings in various locations,
    		 taking logistics into consideration.  The flights will be
     		 booked, cars, hotels reserved, expense advances processed.
    		 Directions will be provided, as well as notes about what
    		 the right attire for the meeting is.  Presentations will
    		 be prepared and the right number of copies will be made 
    	         and ready in advance.  Information about the audience is
     		 made available.  Visa and passport will be processed,
    		 when necessary.
    
    	       - Before the boss departs, the sec. will have prepared an
     		 itinerary, reviewed all events and appropriate notes, and
    		 given the necessary/pertinent information to the manager,
    
    	       - The boss is traveling and it is crucial that an urgent
                 mail message be responded to.  It is scanned for sensi-
                 tivity and because it is lengthy-- the sec. faxes it to
    		 the manager for review.  The manager calls back upon re-
                 ceipt and dictates the reply over the phone, along with
                 several other instructions to handle the situation.
    
    PRESEN-      Most, if not all, secretaries need to be able to prepare
    TATIONS	 accurate and attractive presentations, using some type 
                 of software package; e.g., DECwrite, DECpresent, etc.
    		 
    OTHER	 There are so many other things that the sec will do dur-
     		 ing the course of the day/week:  files, cost center 
    		 monitoring/file management, expense review and processing,
    	   	 supplies ordering, equipment ordering, repair and service
            	 calls, standard hdwre. maintenance, telephone answering,
    		 processing of purchasing information, budget preparation,
    		 review processing (including ticklers to management), etc.
    
    		 Spreadsheets and budgets are worked in DECdecision.
    		 Complex presentations are prepared in DECpresent or 
    		 DECwrite.  Financial reports are prepared.  Management
    		 reports, letters and presentations are edited for accuracy
    		 in spelling and English grammar.
    
    		 Many of us are skilled workstation users, with working 
    		 knowledge of VMS and/or ULTRIX.  Many of us are capable
    		 of trouble-shooting minor hardware and software problems,
    	 	 eliminating the need to call for assistance.  
    
    		 And yes, we do participate in NOTES conferences.  Aside
     		 from a few "non-work related" conferences, I can be
    		 found in:  DECwrite, DECdecision, DEC_SECRETARY - or
    		 wherever I need to go to find a solution or suggestion
    		 to help me do my job better.
    
    There is so much more that a good and capable secretary does do.  Why
    not drop into BUGSEY::DEC_SECRETARY and check it out!  You are welcome
    to pose your question in the secretaries' forum, to get more input. 
    You may get some very interesting responses, and I hope you get some
    more insight into what a secretary at Digital does.
    
    Regards,
    Marcia  

    FWIW   RE:DCU
     
    Today there is a memo here in CXO that states "the president of DEC CU has
    been let go" The one and only president that DCU has ever had ..any
    body else receive this?                
                                                                

Yes, it is true. Check out the DCU conference on Beirut::DCU Apparently he has
involved in some sort of real estate fraud...

Q

re: .58

See note 240.x in that conference.

Lee

    RE. a couple back:
    
    It really upsets me when I am at the credit union and a secretary 
    in front of me is cashing/depositing travel letters, pay checks,
    advances, etc. for the whole group she supports. I agree they should 
    not be doing this. The fifteen minutes it would take each of the people
    to do this themselves would give the secretary more time to do
    presentations, memos, calendars, etc. Also it would save me a 1/2 hour
    to 3/4 hour waiting for them to finish. I agree they have more
    important things to do and so do I.
    
    - John

>    It really upsets me when I am at the credit union and a secretary 
>    in front of me is cashing/depositing travel letters, pay checks,
>    advances, etc. for the whole group she supports. I agree they should 
>    not be doing this. The fifteen minutes it would take each of the people
>    to do this themselves would give the secretary more time to do
>    presentations, memos, calendars, etc. Also it would save me a 1/2 hour
>    to 3/4 hour waiting for them to finish. I agree they have more
>    important things to do and so do I.
    
Well, I think that they are doing exactly what they should be doing. One may
ask "What are you doing standing in line for 30 - 45 minutes, when your 
secretary could be doing it. Freeing you up to do your own presentations, etc.". 
Would you rather have 20 people in front of you each taking 15 minutes or 1 person doing it all? Seems to me to be six of one
and a half dozen of the other. 

    WRONG.  As a secretary, I should not be expected to go pick up your
    dry cleaning, buy your lunch, or purchase your spouse's anniversary
    present.  In that vein, I won't do your banking, either.
                      

    Re .-1
    
    If someone as part of their job would do something during work time
    and that thing could be done by a secretary then I believe that it is
    perfectly OK and efficient for the secretary to do that. Especially
    something like depositing a whole bunch of cheques from petty cash.
    
    Nobody should be picking up their own dry cleaning during work hours so
    noone should expect a secretary to do that either.
    
    Dave

    
    RE:  904.63
    
    Still wrong!  A secretary's responsibility ends with standing in the
    Petty Cash line, collecting your money, and delivering it to you. 
    Depositing that money in your PERSONAL (the operative word here being
    personal) checking/savings account is your responsibility.  
    
    You wouldn't/shouldn't expect a secretary to go to the bank for you,
    anymore than you should expect her to do the tasks listed in 904.62.
    Just because the DCU is conveniently located in the same building as your
    office doesn't mean it's okay to expect your secretary to do your
    credit union run for you.  
    
    There is a subtle, pervasive attitude that secretaries are servants. 
    This isn't just a fault at DEC; I've seen it in many companies.  Truth
    be told, the majority of secretaries are highly skilled, well-educated
    individuals who are very adept at their jobs.  Many of DEC's
    secretaries have Master's degrees even.  It is because of the types of
    tasks we do (copying, standing in Petty Cash lines, running and
    fetching) that the line between "personal" and "company" tasks is so
    hazy.

    RE: 904.63
    
    Personal banking should not be done on company time. As a secretary,
    I do my personal banking at the DCU on my breaks or at lunchtime.
    Banking for the boss or for myself during regular work hours should
    not be noted on a timecard as "time worked".
    
    I think those who have never had a "private/personal secretary" do not
    understand the subtle difference between administrative support
    (picking up petty cash checks) and personal support (banking, shopping,
    etc. as a favor). The personal support is an agreement worked out
    between individuals and has nothing to do with Job Plans or Job
    Descriptions or required duties. I have found very little indication
    of traditional "personal secretarial" support at Digital. In fact,
    if it is practiced successfully in this company, it is usually very 
    private, for one person (V.P. or manager), and is not expected by
    everyone in a group that an administrative secretary supports.
    
    Broad generalizations regarding secretaries and their duties never
    accomplish understanding. Every department and every secretary,
    individually adapting to the Digital general job description, gives rise
    to a diversity that makes secretary's jobs probably the most
    misunderstood/underpaid and also the most rewarding in the company.
    
    

    Thank you, .64 - I couldn't have said it better.  I'll just echo what
    you said about the fact that the money is deposited into the employee's
    "PERSONAL (the operative word here being personal) checking/savings
    account."  
    
    I once worked for a large company located in an office building
    attached to a mall (Worcester Center).  During breaks, we were not
    allowed to leave the office; we were on Company time.  Lunch time, we
    were free to go out wherever we wanted-- to the bank, etc.
    
    I feel that people are "spoiled" to the extent that certain benefits
    begin to be expected.  The DCU at your site is a benefit.  Being able
    to go to the DCU during your work hours is another benefit/luxury that
    many companies don't provide.  But, DCU is a separate banking institu-
    tion; it is there as a PERSONAL benefit to you.  It is NOT work related
    and your secretary's time is better spent doing things other than
    depositing a group of checks for a group of employees. 
    
    In the same light, MetPay is at some facilities as a personal benefit. 
    It is not your secretary's job to go process your insurance paperwork!
                                  
    Personal errands are a FAVOR.  If you do a FAVOR for me, I'll
    reciprocate.  When you EXPECT/DEMAND that I do your personal business,
    I'll seek employment elsewhere where my skills and education will be
    recognized and valued.  Strong statement?  Yes... to accompany some
    very strong feelings in this area.  
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    Marcia,
    
    I thoroughly agree with everything you say. One of the final straws at 
    a previous employer (in my secretarial days) to be asked to fill out a 
    technician's travel report (whom I did not support, besides). His arm 
    wasn't in a cast, and he knew what the receipts were for. That was 14
    years ago. I hope he did it himself, or found another sucker to do it 
    for him. Otherwise he's still waiting. 
    
    Linda

As a new employee benefit i suggest that anyone who wants one be able to
get a free button that says:

			I AM NOT YOUR MOTHER

That might fend off some of the poor helpless babies that seem to be
wandering the halls in ever greater numbers these days.

								paul

re: .62

oops, I just reread .60. I stand corrected and owe the author and secretaries
an apology. I mistook "Credit Union" for "Petty Cash". 

.60 is correct, people should be doing their own banking.

.69 was too quick to apologize.
The comments in .60 also referred to "travel letters" and "advances" 
as well as paychecks.  These are business-oriented transactions.
As the Company now no longer plans to provide cash at Petty Cash, 
there must be some business-oriented accommodation to provide travellers
with the cash they need to travel on Company business.  (Ever tray to buy
a $3.50 hot dog at an airport or a $7 bus ride with a $100 traveller's
check?)
The distinction between the DCU and DEC is a red herring in this instance.
No, I wouldn't expect a secretary to drive 15 miles to go to my personal
bank, but if the transaction can be handled more conveniently and efficiently
by going to DCU (for example), there is no reason a secretary shouldn't
do it within the other normal priorities of business support.

- tom]

    -.68
    
    ^ ^
     v
    \-/
    
    -.69
    
    On behalf of the secretaries, thank you!
    
    -.70
    
    Because of the proliferation of remote petty cash, many secretaries now
    have to drive to other facilities to obtain cash for mileage
    reimbursements, advances, etc.  Digital reimburses these secretaries
    for their mileage at the standard rate.  When a secretary receives
    reimbursement, she goes to DCU during her lunch time to deposit the
    cash/check.  There's no reason why you can't do the same.  In addition,
    ATM machines make banking available 24 hours a day.  ATM machines not
    only accept deposits, but they also give out cash -- enough for you to
    buy that hot dog at the airport (sigh, ever since I found out what's
    in a hot dog, I can't bring myself to eat them anymore).
    
    The point is that once DEC gives you the money it owes you, DEC's
    obligation to you is discharged.  How you deal with that money is your
    personal responsibility.  If you get/got a live pay check every week,
    would you expect your secretary to deposit it in your DCU account for
    you every week?  You shouldn't; DEC paid you and that ends DEC's
    obligation.  Expecting your secretary to do your banking for you only 
    trivializes her role and makes it difficult for her to be seen as the
    professional she is.

Re:                  <<< Note 904.71 by STEPS1::CAISSIE >>>

>							    In addition,
>    ATM machines make banking available 24 hours a day.  ATM machines not
>    only accept deposits,...

It's my understanding that you can only make a deposit at an ATM which belongs
to the bank where you have your account.  Perhaps this is not universally
true, but it certainly appears to be the case here in Colorado Springs. 

-  David

re: .71,
    
>    On behalf of the secretaries, thank you!...
    
>    Expecting your secretary to do your banking for you only 
>    trivializes her role and makes it difficult for her to be seen as the
                 ^^^                                 ^^^
>    professional she is.
                  ^^^

    On behalf of the *male* secretaries, thanks, but no thanks!...

				   -davo

    re:-1
    
    Talk about sexism! I've been called a 'male chauvinist pig' but at
    least I type "him/her" when it's appropriate.
    
    Ken

    -.73 & .74
    
    I apologize!  I apologize!  Special apologies to Bill, the secretary I
    work with.  
    
    Lordy, I can't believe I used all those feminine pronouns.  I was
    the first one to cheer when I heard that men were entering the
    secretarial profession.  I thought "ah ha, maybe now they'll pay us
    better and start treating secretaries like professionals."
      
    I could plead stupidity, dangnabit, but I think unconsciousness is more
    accurate.  I'll just have to watch that sexist tendency.  Excuse me
    while I crawl off to flog my internal grammar book.

One last word on the subject from me.....

Nobody, thats N O B O D Y  can take advantage or demean you without
your consent....

If you think that doing somebody's banking, etc, etc is demeaning, then why
do you do it?

    In response to your question:  "If you think that doing somebody's
    banking, etc, etc is demeaning, then why do you do it?"
    
    I don't think any one of us [secretaries] who are participating in this
    conversation do.  We are participating to help try to dispell some of
    the myths surrounding peoples' concept of what a secretary at Digital
    does, or should do.
    
    In defense of those who do go to DCU, etc., and would rather not--
    not everybody is assertive by nature.  When you're in a position where
    you have some pretty important decisions to make:  "should I fight this
    request, or should I just do it and get it over with?" - many people
    will just do it - rather than "fight city hall."  
    
    Please remember that the secretarial role is most often perceived as a
    "subordinate" role-- NOT IN ALL CASES, but clearly, in many.  It is
    difficult for some to say no in those circumstances.
    
    It's the perception of what a secretary's roles and responsibilities
    are that need to be more clearly understood, and/or redefined. 
    Secretaries should be considered members of the team, important
    contributors, adding value to the organization...
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

    Well, I had a choice to make - delete my last note, or try to 
    
    			DIS   SPELL      my error.
    
    I should have opened good 'ol Webster before entering my note. 
    
    DISPEL - v.  To rid of by, or as if by, scattering; drive away.

    re:.77
    
    Just curious,Mrs Kip,and please don't flame at me for asking,but,when
    is a secretary's role *not* subordinate?
    
    Ken

    A secretary is an important member of a team.  I see my secretary as
    important as the wage class 4 members of my group.  She does a lot to
    keep the group running smoothly and to keep the workplace free of
    interruption and BS.
    
    Whether someone is a manager, project leader, team leader, individual
    contributor, etc. is not important most of the time because what we
    should be is a member of a team, where the team is a formal structure
    or an informal structure defined by working interfaces.
    
    The only time anyone on the team is subordinate is when direction is
    being set by one indivdual, a performance review is being given,
    disciplinary action is being taken, etc.
    
    I'm not saying that management shouldn't set direction.  I believe that
    we should be getting more and better quality direction than we seem to
    get in most organizations.  But once a group knows what it has to do,
    it should do it as a team as much as possible and practical.  The
    manager, then, should become subordinate to the team in the sense that
    it is the manager's job to remove roadblocks that inhibit the team's
    ability to work.
    
    Bottom line: Secretaries are no more subordinate than anyone else. 
    They are an important team member.

    RE: <<< Note 904.79 by CSC32::K_BOUCHARD "Ken Bouchard CXO3-2" >>>

    I view your reply as being little more than thinly-veiled contempt.
    Please stop hiding behind your words: there's nothing "honest" in your
    question. It's loaded and you know it. You're not being "curious";
    you're being mean-spirited and contemptible. 

    I think an apology is in order.

    Bill

    Please!  I'd rather continue to have light discourse on the subject of
    secretaries' responsibilities than insist that Ken offer an apology.  I
    don't work for Ken.  I don't know Ken.  And Ken is entitled to his
    opinion-- even if you and I don't share or like that opinion.  I'd
    rather not debate the spirit of his question, please.
    
    It isn't even necessary for me to offer a reply, since .80's reply said
    it all. 
    
    Thank you, .81 for "coming to our defense," but I was neither hurt nor
    felt that Ken's response was destructive.  I simply wouldn't want to
    work for, or with, him!
    
    In the spirit of harmony...
    
    Rgds,
    marcia 

    I think there may be disagreement here over the meaning of the word
    "subordinate".  My dictionary shows two meanings:
    
    	1) Of a lower or inferior class or rank, and
    	2) Subject to the authority or control of another.
    
    I think Ken meant his question in the second sense, and those who were
    offended thought he meant the first sense.
        John Sauter

    First of all if Hardy took offense,that's too damned bad. My question
    was honest and sincere. I,too think that secretaries are an important
    member of the team and should have the regonition deserved. If you'll
    bother to read my previous reply in this discussion,you'll see which
    side of the fence I'm on. Mrs Kip,what I meant by the question was
    really rhetorical in that I was really saying that unless one is the
    president/CEO of the company,that person is subordinate to SOMEONE.
    
    BTW:I wouldn't want to work with or for some people either.
    
    Ken

    I don't think that anyone should assume that anyone has read every
    single response to a topic with 80 responses.  I happened to
    NEXT/UNSEEN and saw .79 and had the same internal response that Hardy
    did.  I started to write a similar response (and I thought his was
    fair) but decided to express things in a more positive fashion.  Ken,
    I am glad that you didn't mean what I thought you did.

Another approach might be that someone is not in a subordinate role
when they're giving direction to other people.  By that criterion some
secretaries who are higher up in the chain might have bouts of being
non-subordinate in that they might give direction to junior secretaries
or administrative personnel, while a software engineer 1 might never be
in this exalted role.  So, don't indulge in stereotypes!

								paul

    My response bothered me last night, (about not wanting to work with
    you) because it didn't give the benefit of the doubt - regarding the
    interpretation of the word subordinate). That is why I logged in ASAP
    this morning.  
    
    I hope you will excuse my remark, too, and I hope that we can continue
    to carry on a very interesting discussion on the subject of Petty Cash,
    Secretarial Responsibilities, etc.  
    
    Rgds,
    

To bring the topic back to Petty Cash and away from secretaries' 
responsibilities...

Our secretary reports that the new petty cash procedures now prevent
getting a travel advance split between traveler's cheques and either
a DEC check or an electronic funds transfer.
This makes no sense to me, and I've asked her to check back through
the chain that told her this.
Does anybody here have word on what the new procedures are intended
to say in this regard?

- tom]

Our secretary got an answer from the area's petty cash headquarters,
and it seems that the restriction does not apply.

>Subj:	Petty Cash
>
>Hi Tom,
>
>I'd like to add some clarity to EFT (Electronic Funds Transfer) within
>Petty Cash.  New procedures are that you still can have Advances split
>however you so desire.  Have your secretary check with the cashier.
>
>If you have any further questions, please call