Conference 7.286::digital

    IMHO, this is a dumb application for NOTES.
    
    There are two perfectly good existing ways to disseminate this
    information, at least in the US.  One is LIVE WIRE, the VTX service.
    The second is Sales Update.  The same tools you need to access NOTES
    will get you to VTX.  
    
    Sales Update is distributed to anyone with a Sales or Sales Support 
    job code; most SWS job codes qualify.  You can subscribe by
    sending an electronic mail message to Sales Update @ OGO along with
    your name, badge, job code, title, CC and mail stop.
    
    If neither of these methods apply in the UK, I'll bet your paycheck
    that there is an equally effective substitute.  And I'll bet it
    doesn't require setting up another NOTES conference.
    
    Al
    

    There would be no problem at all with an "official" announcements
    conference.  I invite you to petition the corporation for one of the
    groups in the announcement loop to sponsor such a conference.  I give
    chances of slim to none of getting official sponsorship.

    The problems with an "unofficial" announcement conference are manifest:

    (a) As it would replace "official" channels such as VTX and printed
    matter (SALES UPDATE), we'd have people complaining that it was
    discouraging official usage

    (b) If the unofficial announcement conference missed an announcement,
    then there would be a hue and cry over it  (TOO LITTLE)

    (c) If the discussion of an announcement introduced misinformation into
    minds of sales people, there would be a hue and cry over it (TOO MUCH)

    (d) The current organization of the EASYNET VAX Notes Conferences is
    along the products or technologies themselves.  It seems to do the job
    and announcement information appears in those conferences.  An
    announcement conference would duplicate this information.

    To moderate an "unofficial" announcement conference would be a thankless
    job, any volunteers?

>    Sales Update is distributed to anyone with a Sales or Sales Support 
>    job code; most SWS job codes qualify.

        I'm don't have a Sales or Sales Support job code, but there are
        occasions when I would like to look at announcements from Sales
        Update.  It would be pure waste to send me paper copies of all
        the issues.  It would be useful if there was an online archive of
        Sales Updates (with a complete on-line index).  

        As a matter of fact, it would be nice to have on-line archives
        for almost all Digital publications.  Produce Sales Update,
        Japan Review, Digital Technical Journal, etc., in BookReader
        format and make them available electronically (over the net or
        on a CD ROM).

        					B.J.

        I do have a Sales Support Job code, but I find it impossible to
        get competitive update and access to online sales updates....
        
        
        q
        

    re: .3
    
    You're suggesting a high-tech solution to a low-tech problem.  Setting
    up an alternate distribution path for information just because you don't
    like the currently available alternatives (they certainly are viable)
    makes little business sense.
    
    Sales Update contains very transient information.  After a quarter,
    just about everything you would need to know about a new product (that
    was in the publication to begin with) is in the price book and other
    marketing literature.  No one, except the idly curious, really
    needs online, indexed access to back issues.
    
    Bookreader is fine for manuals and things I'm going to refer to
    time and time again, but it is basically useless (IMHO) for
    periodicals. I read my Sales Updates in the john at home (they have a 
    rather, well, cathartic effect), and I don't have a workstation in
    there yet.  
        
    Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not against the use of technology;
    I just want to see it applied where there are real problems to solve,
    not simply for it's own sake.
    
    Al
    

>          <<< Note 864.1 by HOCUS::KOZAKIEWICZ "Shoes for industry" >>>

>    IMHO, this is a dumb application for NOTES.
 IMHO, this is a really practical application for NOTES.
   
>    There are two perfectly good existing ways to disseminate this
>    information, at least in the US.  One is LIVE WIRE, the VTX service.
'at least in the US', well I'm sorry to disappoint you but the parts of
Digital outside the US are important too. The author of .0 was saying
that access to the US is too slow and I agree. Whether it's fast enough
for folks in the US or not is irrelevant.

>    The second is Sales Update.  The same tools you need to access NOTES
>    will get you to VTX.  
Wait a second, isn't this distributed on 'paper' ?
Paper (noun): Medium used for exchanging information. Replaced in the
20th and early 21st centuries by electronic forms of communication
which were faster, kinder on the environment, interactive and reduced
unneccesary duplication of data. This transition was poineered largely
by companies such as Digital, who used the worlds largest private network
(Easynet) to distribute internal information rather than relying on more
old fashioned methods. See also 'Ink', 'Writing', 'Waste Paper' and
'Destruction of Amazonian rain forests'.

:-) :-)
     
>    Sales Update is distributed to anyone with a Sales or Sales Support 
>    job code; 
Exactly. Not only is it distributed on 'paper' but you have to be in
a certain group to subscribe. What about the rest of us ??????

VTX is a non starter when it comes to distributing this kind of information.
I've never used UK_LIVEWIRE or the US equivalent from VTX. I don't need to
know that kind of stuff as part of my job, but I would like to be aware of
this kind of information (memo's from Ken, product announcements etc) so I
know what's going on. You can't easily say in VTX 'give me all the information
I haven't read yet', you have to tag on some difficult to use application
such as VALU. Notes is dead easy to use like this. VTX involves trekking
up and down menus (at least 3 levels) and when you get there the information
may be empty or unavailable. Notes lets you do a DIR/TITLE= to look for
specific information. If Notes is slow then there are loads of easy to 
use applications to get round that problem (I use one such method to 
access this conference). Remember, this is intended to be a service for
the whole of Digital, not just New England or whoever happens to be on
a fast link.

	Craig.

    re: .6
    
    If you can read any of what I said as being insensitive to those
    outside the US, so sorry.  I certainly tried to be sensitive, but
    I have no first hand knowledge of how business is done in Europe.
    I do know that you have a Field organization and that the problem
    of disseminating Sales Update type information to those who need
    it to do their jobs has surely been solved.
    
    As far as paper goes, it ain't going to disappear for a loooonng
    time.  The people who need Sales Update to do their job spend a 
    good deal of their time in the field putting their face in front
    of customers, not in an office sitting in front of a workstation.
    Paper is the optimum way of distributing this information.
    
    What slays me is the few well intentioned folks who come along that
    don't need these tools to do their jobs but want the corporation
    to invest money to set up a third distribution channel.  Not because
    the existing channels don't work or are not available (remember,
    all it takes tyo subscribe to Sales Update is an electronic mail
    message, plus a reasonable justification if you don't have an 'S'
    or 'R' job code), but basically because they don't like them.  
    
    It might be nice to have a NOTES conference for announcements in
    order to serve those who don't have an essential, timely need for
    that information, but does it make good business sense?  Like I said 
    before, investing money to solve problems that don't exist is a
    waste.  
    
    Al
    

In defense of the VTX-based Sales Update information, I find it very
useful and easy to use. I can view individual Sales Update issues
or I can do a 'search' function that will allow me to enter a keyword.

Somthing like this (for illustration only, the actual prompts and text
are much more informative that what I am entering here):

Keyword or phrase: RA81

55 articles found containing keyword 'RA81'

1) view all 55 articles
2) enter another keyword to narrow the search
3) start all over with new keyword

>2

2nd Keyword or phrase: upgrade

3 articles found containing keyword 'RA81' and 'upgrade'

1) view all 55 articles
2) view the 3 articles
3) re-enter yoru 2nd keyword
4) start all over with new main keyword


Anyway, you get the idea. Online Sales Update is a subset of somthing called
'Access' which is provided by US Sales. I have a Sales Update article here
(which I was able to locate via search, mail to myself and post here in
about two minutes time) about Access. It sounds to me that someone needs
to push for this kind of tool to exist outside of the US. Naturally, it would
have to be taylored to the correct country/geography.

Moderators: I realise this is not the place to be posting
            announcements about sales tools. The reason I am posting
            this is so that employees can know what tools exist so
            that if they feel that they need access to these kinds
            of resources (or need somthing similar) they can work
            the issue up through their management. One of the problems
            within DEC is just finding out what is there to be able to
            ask for it.
            
            If this note doesn't belong, delete it and return it and
            I'll trim it.
            
            Lee
            

04-APR-88 Sales Update
                                     S A L E S   C O M M U N I C A T I O N S

								S82005.TXT

ACCESS NOW AVAILABLE IN ALL U.S. FIELD OFFICES

                                                              Carol Sidoti
                                                              DTN:  276-8242
                                                              OGO1-1/U7

    ===================================================================
    |                                                                 |
    |  o A dynamic tool developed to meet the business needs of       |
    |    U.S. field sales and sales support personnel                 |
    |                                                                 |
    ===================================================================
    
ACCESS, the standard window into on-line Sales and Marketing information, is 
now available in all U.S. Field Offices.  This comes as a result of many 
months of support and effort by the nine U.S. Areas, U.S. DIS and the ACCESS 
Team.

WHAT DOES ACCESS OFFER TODAY?

ACCESS allows field sales and sales support personnel to navigate through a 
variety of infobases to find the data needed to help close business.  ACCESS 
users can expect to find the following information on ACCESS:

o  Over 500 Customer Reference Accounts are available today.

o  6,800 applications and solutions are on line to help Sales find the right 
   offerings to meet customer needs.

o  Over 1,500 pages of competitive information is available from such 
   sources as:  Competitive Update, Computerworld, Gartner Group, Forbes, PR 
   Newswire, and much more.

o  Two years of Sales Update issues are retrievable via menu or key word 
   search.

o  Over 60,000 product prices are available through the U.S. Price List. 

o  In addition, Shipping, Peripherals and Supplies, SPDs, U.S. Program 
   Guide, Networks and Communications information, Government Systems 
   information and software product information are all easily available 
   now.

ACCESS USAGE AND MEASUREMENTS

You have made ACCESS the valuable tool it is today.  Usage has climbed 
steadily from 230 users accessing 4,453 pages of information in March 1987 
to 4,611 users accessing 129,725 pages of information in February 1988.

To ensure that ACCESS meets the needs of sales and sales support personnel 
today and adapts to the way they do business tomorrow, we have developed 
measurements to help us better understand what is needed in an on-line 
information system:
o  User keystrokes help us to better understand the way information is 
   viewed and our thesaurus is updated to adapt to future requests.


                            FOR INTERNAL USE ONLY
o  Through our internal statistical package users vote for the type of 
   information found on line.  That is, users have input into the content of 
   ACCESS.

o  User comments and suggestions through the on-line comment feature of 
   ACCESS tell us what needs to be improved, added or changed on ACCESS.

HOW DO I GET ON ACCESS

ACCESS is available only to U.S field sales and sales support personnel 
either directly through the ALL-IN-1 Menu, or the U.S. VTX Library Option, 
Sales and Marketing.  Notification of future availability of ACCESS will 
occur through Sales Update.
  
ACCESS TRAINING

The ACCESS training kit is available through your local Sales Communications 
Center by referencing part number EZ-C216894.  The ACCESS videotape, which 
has been distributed to all sales unit managers, was designed for internal 
training, but can also be shown to customers who are interested in VTX.  
ACCESS training will be scheduled soon for those in the South Central, East 
Central, New York, Southwest and Northeast Areas. 

THE FUTURE OF ACCESS

ACCESS is a dynamic tool that will continue to grow to meet your business 
needs.  We are continuing to make enhancements to the information currently 
offered and will be offering new information to help you do your job better. 
However, your support and commitment in supplying input is crucial to the 
continued success of ACCESS.

Take advantage of ACCESS today because ACCESS IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE.  
ACCESS has proven to be a superior sales tool to help close business.


                            FOR INTERNAL USE ONLY

Re: .8

Although this is a rathole from the original topic (and I'll start a new
note on it) it appears (at least at my local office) that many in sales don't
take advantage of Access because they have never been shown the basics of
using VTX.

Pity.

Lee

    Some people don't even have access to VTX!
    I'm working on a production cluster and IS decided not install VTX
    on it for reason unkown!
    
    Charles Mallo
    Remote Services Holland

re .10

	If HLFS00 is in UTO, then there IS a VTX service for you.
	Marian VD Boojaard is the contact for VTX in UTO.

	With ELF V2 going to VTX soon ($VTX ELF  or the ELF keyword
	when you're in VTX)  and LIVEWIRE going worldwide, not to 
	mention the other 210+ applications/infobases out there,
	you'll probably need VTX sooner or later.

	_bill
	
For more info on ELF V2, see page 394  of the May phone book.

    
    As an aside, I am in favor of an "announcment" conference. At least
    there, the chance would exist to find old press releases, sales
    kits..etc  for re-use. I have gone through channels before, and have
    been told that this data is not maintained in an online retrievable
    format. This has caused me, at least, aggravation and redundent work on
    several occasions. Sales update is one things, press kits are another.
    Both are useful in the proper circumstance.
     
    Barry
    

    >          <<< Note 864.7 by HOCUS::KOZAKIEWICZ "Shoes for industry" >>>
    >               -< Maybe this belongs in waste watch... >-
    >What slays me is the few well intentioned folks who come along that
    >don't need these tools to do their jobs but want the corporation
    >to invest money to set up a third distribution channel.  Not because
    >the existing channels don't work or are not available (remember,
    >all it takes tyo subscribe to Sales Update is an electronic mail
    >message, plus a reasonable justification if you don't have an 'S'
    >or 'R' job code), but basically because they don't like them.  
    
    You seem to be implying that we engineers have no need to know about
    new products.  But when you sales types call us up to ask if our X
    software works with the new Y hardware, or interfaces to the new Z
    software, we've never heard of Y or Z because the folks who put out the
    info don't think we need it.  Then you lose, because we can't give you
    an answer.
    
    - Dan.
    

    re: -1
    
    I'm saying no such thing.  Anyone who wants to see Sales Update
    should be able to, and can.
    
    What I find somewhat bothersome are people whose interest in Sales and
    Sales Support tools is secondary at best handing out lectures on
    how they find them inadequate.  It comes across as just a little rude,
    at least to me.  The primary beneficiaries of Sales Update (to use
    an example) are supposed to be Field Sales and Software Services.
    They need to have the primary say on whether or not they find the
    tools adequate for their jobs.
    
    There are two official channels for disseminating product
    announcements - Live Wire and Sales Update.  Sales Update is available
    either through internal mail or VTX.  I would personally prefer to 
    see investment dollars spent in a few dozen far more important areas 
    than on adding a basically superfluous distribution channel to the 
    existing two.
    
    Al
    

    re.11
    Bill,
    HLFS00 is indeed in UTO and suprise!! we do have vtx.
    Maybe someone forgot to tell us it was available??
    
    Charles

    Re: .14 "anyone who needs Sales Update can ...."
    
    Not true. US Sales Update is only distributed to US addresses.
    Engineers outside the US (yep, there are some, including 700 here in
    Reading UK) cannot get US Sales Update other than by smuggling!
    
    Another aye for the conference.

    "Holy SOAPBOX, Batman...what a rat hole!"
    
    IMHO (most uverused notes icon since :^), one of the proponents (.0?)
    should defecate or get off the throne. Do it, and let it live or
    die on its own merits. We're not talking megabuck investments here.
    If it becomes popular, you'll be a hero; if not, you're bound to learn
    something from the experience. So just do it, and let the rest of us
    concentrate on the really burning issues - like electromagnetic
    radiation frying our eyeballs while we NOTE. 

    re: .16
    
    I find it difficult to believe that the European Sales and SWS 
    organizations lack a tool equivalent to Sales Update.  Your goal
    should be to tap into the same communications channels used by your
    team members across the pond.
    
    I played around with US VTX version of Sales Update last night.
    I was quite impressed.  There is no rational reason that I can think
    of why anyone in the US would need an NOTES conference when you have 
    this tool.
    
    If this is not available in Europe or the the GIA, there must be
    a reason.  It's probably either some half-baked policy, or just
    the organizational differences.  My own opinion is that these are
    not the kinds of problems that should be ignored and solved by
    creating outlaw systems.  Use the ODP and get the problem fixed - it's
    worth the effort.
    
    Al
    

    re: .17
    
    Yes, and we can revisit the subject in Waste Watch!
    
    Al
    

    Yes, in the UK, you can get UK Sales update.
    
    Wonderful. Except products are announced at different times, with
    different emphasis, different packaging, or not at all!
    
    If you're in an engineering group building products for the world-wide
    market (even including the US's reducing market share (-;), then you
    need info on other Corporate product announcements.
    
    As the name, Sales Update, implies, it's aimed at Sales staff (&
    support). There is no method of communicating product announcements to
    other organisations except by bastardising the system. and please don't
    assume what works in the US, will work elsewhere. Life aint like that.
    
    As .17 said, let's try it and see whether it's useful.
    
    JtheK in "Remote_Engineering"

With 18 replies in the first 3 days, this would look like a topic of moderate
interest. However, many of the replies have been tangential or repetitive.

I make it something like 3 replies in favour of my suggestion, 7 clearly
against (of which 6 by Al), and the rest more or less neutral. The last
category of replies have brought out some interesting and useful facts
which were previously unknown to me (e.g. the existence of "ASSETS").

Really, I think that Pat put the lid on my suggestion in .2. As he pointed
out, an Announcements Conference could either be "official" or "unofficial".
If official, it would need to be justified, resourced, funded, staffed,
and generally bureaucratised. (Besides, I doubt whether there exists any
"central marketing" body which is actually capable and authorised to collect
together announcements on ALL our products). If unofficial, it would be
VERY hard to collect the information, and would impose a crushing load on
the shoulders of the person/people who ran it. (This answers .17, one of
the most sensitively expressed and helpful notes I have seen in a long time).

I'd like to respond to some of the comments expressed in other replies:

(1) Sales Update is the official way of distributing announcement information.

	US Sales Update is distributed to sales-related people in the USA.
	Europe has the European Sales Update (which I suspect consists of
	articles from US Sales Update recycled through Geneva in order to
	allow European-specific edits, at the cost of some delay). No doubt
	GIA gets one flavour or another.

	Sales Update is automatically distributed to sales-related people,
	but I don't fall into that category. I work in an ACT (yes, that's
	right, ACTs are not considered sales-related in the UK). I work
	with Marketing to develop sales tools, but I don't get to see them.
	As .13 remarked, field people still ring me up urgently asking for
	information. It's embarrassing that, although I may have been
	following Product X for the last 2 years, I'm often uncertain
	whether it has been announced and, if so, what we said about it.

	Sure, I can get on the Sales Update distribution. But then I gradually
	accumulate a pile of them (I don't find I can throw them away after
	a quarter, as Al says he can). Besides, it's hard to do a search
	on a paper document. And lastly, like many distributions, I tend to
	fall off it from time to time. I really don't need to take half a day
	to get back on the list.

(2) VTX is the official channel.

	So now that's two official channels...

	From some replies, I can see that some people think VTX is a fine
	tool for the job. This could be because it is faster for them, because
	they have different styles of working, or because they haven't seen
	anything better. Obviously, if they're reading NOTES, they can judge
	between NOTES and VTX.

	For the record, I have the following problems with VTX:

		- It can be painfully slow (in the UK at least). I can easily
		  spend 20-30 seconds waiting for the next screen.

		- It's tree-structured. So you need to know roughly what you're
		  looking for. Some of the paths are empty, but you are still
		  allowed to spend that minute checking them out and backing up.

		- Information is not archived. It really would be useful to be
		  able to establish what we said, when.

		- You can't say "show me everything I haven't seen yet".

		- There's no batch tool (like AVN, which allows me to spend
		  half the time reading Notes), so I have to waste live working
		  time peering at the screen waiting for the next page.

		- There's no way to ask for clarification or discuss the
		  implications of announcements (of course, this could be
		  seen as an advantage).

(3) Things are OK in the USA, don't complain, if Europe doesn't have the same
    facilities, it's your own fault. (my paraphrase)

	Once again, I have to ask Americans to remember that Europe does as
	much business as the USA. For instance, it's nice to know about
	ASSETS - how does that help us? One of our biggest problems is that
	things get announced in the USA before they are announced in Europe.
	We then have the USA announcement date, the USA ship date, the European
	announcement date, the European ship date... and that's before the
	slips!

(4) If you're not in Sales or Sales Support, you don't need to know what the
    company announces (my paraphrase):

>    What slays me is the few well intentioned folks who come along that
>    don't need these tools to do their jobs but want the corporation
>    to invest money to set up a third distribution channel.

>    It might be nice to have a NOTES conference for announcements in
>    order to serve those who don't have an essential, timely need for
>    that information, but does it make good business sense? 
    
>    What I find somewhat bothersome are people whose interest in Sales and
>    Sales Support tools is secondary at best handing out lectures on
>    how they find them inadequate.  It comes across as just a little rude,
>    at least to me.  
 
	Al, I'm glad you think I'm well-intentioned, but the rest of this is
	inaccurate guesswork. Why do you think I don't need these tools to do
	my job, or that my interest in them is secondary, or that I don't have
	an essential, timely need for information? And what on earth is rude
	about my mild, tentative, reasoned suggestion in the base note?

	As I explained before, my job is to understand software development
	technology and to transfer CASE knowledge to the field. This is quite
	hard, for several reasons, including:

		- Sales and Sales Support people are very busy and have little
		  time to learn about what's new. It's hard to get permission
		  to communicate with them.

		- There are oceans of information about products lying around,
		  but little help with straining out the meaning and relevance.

	  I believe one of the most important things Digital is learning
	  to do is to handle and absorb masses of information. One key method
	  is to automate. That is why I value the way VAXNotes, together with
	  AVN, bring things to my attention as they arrive, without forcing
	  me explicitly to set out on "fishing expeditions". There just isn't
	  enough time. VTX seems to me to embody a much more primitive paradigm
	  for information retrieval.

Still, I reckon this is another suggestion that is years before its time. In
the past 5 years has been a safe guess - I predict that in 1994 Digital will
be using Notes to distribute information about announcements and strategies.
In the meantime, what are evenings and weekends for but learning about the
company's directions?

--Tom

			

    re: .21
    
    Tom,
    
    First of all, it wasn't you I accused of being rude, or not having
    a vested interest in Sales Update.  Apologies if it sounded that
    way.

    It still sounds to me like the problem is not that the information
    is unavailable, but that access to it is not optimal.  In response
    to some of your points:
    
    1) (Sales Update)
    
       Paper is both an advantage and a bane.  Some of the big advantages
       are that it requires no special tools to read, you can take it
       with you, and you can process large amounts of the data contained
       within very quickly, at least for certain types of processing.
       In less time than it takes to log onto a system, I can scan
       the front page index of a Sales Update and find out that most of
       the issue is dedicated to retirement announcements of products I
       didn't know existed, or that the BC-99Q adapter for the KZDB-11S
       controller is now available for the BA-44-ZZ box and toss it
       out.  Or there might be a significant product announcement that
       I'll want to take the time to read.  The big disadvantage is that,
       well, it's paper.  Takes up space and I can't do electronic
       searches.  You also need to get and stay on the distribution list.
    
       Paper is one way to get this information. VTX is another, which
       brings me to...
    
    2) (VTX)
    
       Product announcements are a one-way street.  VTX _should_ fit the
       bill for this type of communications well.  If it doesn't (and it
       sounds like there are performance problems at least when used outside
       the US), we should address the problems.  
    
       While I was writing this, a sales rep came into my office looking
       for our networks consultant.  He's out of town and I don't have
       anyone else in the group with those skills.  It turns out all
       the guy wanted was some info on the DEBNI - when was it announced
       and how did it compare to the DEBNA.  He was looking through
       the paper Sales Updates and couldn't find the articles.  "Did
       you try VTX?" I asked.  Of course the answer was no.  Well, it
       took me all of 2 minutes to log on and use keyword searches to find
       *and* display the articles - much faster than it would have in
       NOTES. And the DEBNA article was dated 1987.
    
       If it doesn't work that well for you, it's a management problem.
       Get them involved and make them fix it!
    
    3) (Differences between US and the rest of the world)
    
       This is my personal hot button.  We are supposed to be one company,
       yet we act like several.  It's bad enough when different functions
       in the same organization don't pull together; when the same function
       in different geographies can't act consistently, we are dead meat.
    
       I see your request as underscoring a real problem.  People with
       roughly identical job descriptions in different parts of the world
       have about the same requirements for tools to do their jobs.
       We need to invest our time and money to build tools which are
       usable by *everyone*, not on allowing every function to build their
       own unique set.


    One way to look at this is simply as an arcane discussion on which
    medium (NOTES or VTX) is better suited for the job at hand.  My
    personal opinion (and it is only that) is that interactive
    communications are not a requirement and that VTX is the better
    choice.  
    
    The more important aspect of the conversation to me becomes a question
    of how we spend our investment dollars.  A successful NOTES
    announcements conference will be a significant undertaking.  I don't
    think we can afford it.
    
    Al
    
    

re .22:

Thanks for explaining your point of view, Al. I can go along with most of it,
except for the user interface aspects of Notes and VTX. Namely, I find the
serial access of Notes, plus the "Unseen" feature, much easier and quicker to
use than the tree structure of VTX. I keep going down VTX branches, backing
up again, getting lost... Hyperinformation technology might alleviate this
a great deal in the future.

Maybe the choice between Notes and VTX is largely a matter of taste. It's clear
from other replies that quite a few people favour VTX. Well, that is a useful
thing to have learned. I'll make a point of investigating what VTX has to
offer. (But have you noticed the question that has arisen - why do so many
people remain unaware of these resources?)

I'm glad you feel strongly that we should work as a single company, and try to
provide equal access to information worldwide. The bottom line seems to be,
we agree it's really a management problem, and another Notes conference isn't
really a practical solution.

Thanks for the input, everyone - I've learned a good deal from our discussion.

--Tom

    To further the rathole a bit:
    
    Re: "up and down in VTX, getting lost"

    Most of the time within VTX it is possible to multiple select
    items. For example, if you have a menu of 20 choices in front of
    you can do the following:

    Choice: 1,4,5,6,8,13,17,19 <cr>
    
    When you want to go to the next item in your list, do <PF1><KP2>
    When you want to go back an item in your list, do <PF1><KP1>
    
    This should save some of the 'up and down' trips.

    Tis a shame that there are (typically) no funds available to
    train folkes on the features of VTX, VAXnotes, mail, etc.

    Lee

    re: .-1
    
    I'm an avid supporter of VTX, but I feel obligated nevertheless
    to point out that the multiple choice feature only works for display
    pages (the ones at the end of the "down") and that it won't work
    if there is an intermediate menus.  Also, some people think they're
    being clever by setting up their infobases with a menu choice such
    as "To start over, select choice 88", which makes EVERY page a menu!
    
    Notes and VTX are separate products primarily designed for different
    functions.  Notes is for conferencing, for posting items that people
    need to comment on. For example, it's great to post a proposed standard
    and get rapid feedback.  VTX is meant more as a publishing mechanism.
    It's very good for making the final approved standard available
    to anyone who needs to see it.
    
    I agree notes has more "built-in" navigational features, but a good
    infobase designer can use VTX keywords, etc. to make information
    just as easy to get to.  

    The WYKIWYL principle applies here: What you know is what you like.
    We're very adept in Digital at pushing out the borders of what a
    product can do. But the bottom line is you can't please everyone.
    
    PS: A few years back, not even all sales support folks could
    automatically get on the mailing list for Sales update. There was
    a waiting list that seemed to have to do with limiting the total
    number of copies printed.  And I don't think a new conference will
    solve the problem.
    
    	/Marvin

I think an announcements conference would be great.  Yes, I know about the 
Sales Update and use the VTX version (I don't get the paper version and wouldn't
want to - I get enough paper).

...but...

A major failing of the sales update is that there is usually no data about
when the item in the article will be *announced*.  It says "Whirlygig V2.0" and
tells me about all the new feature but doesn't tell me when its OK to talk about
"Whirlygig V2.0".  You know, when the press release goes out and when we start 
taking orders.  I'd love to know when the information taht a product exists is
public.   I mean, it can be a long time between the time that a sales update
article appears and when we tell the world.

Or am I missing something?

BobW

    I think an announcements conference would be a good idea.  Not because
    of any failings of Sales Update or VTX, but just because it would be
    interesting to to see some of the discussion and opinions related to a
    new product announcement.
    
    In fact, I would like to see a conference that discussed new product
    announcements from other vendors as well.
    
    Peter Dillard

       
       
       	Why not communicate back to the Sales Update people your
       displeasure with the lack of info to properly do your job?
       Creating an Announcements conference sure as hell isn't gonna help
       these people do THEIR job, which is to help you do yours..
       
       	Push back the right way.. You know, do the right thing?
       
       
       						mike

    RE: Publication of Sales Updates
    
    I feel that we have wasted enough resource (both the world's *read
    forest* and DEC's) publishing stuffs like sales updates (ie pure text)
    that could easily have been sent to the field office for local printing
    (or reading on line for that metter) instead of being shipped all over
    the place and generating revenues for shipping firms. Although there
    has been improvements, Sales Update here (Singapore) is now printed in
    Hong Kong where the FE HQ is.
    
    Sales update on paper contributes also to the enormous pile sitting on
    my desk (by the way I have not seen the *surface* of the desk for
    months). every so often I'lll heave the whole lot off for burning and
    then discover that something some sales type needed has just gone inthe
    furnace. Besides how would I go around searching for things on paper?
    
    I'm a sales support type and really do not have time mucking about in
    VTX (unless I can submit a batch job to navigate the VTX tree) whereas
    I could always retrieve unread notes and then decide if I want to print
    it or just read it or maybe just *DELETE*. And for those people on a
    fast link, exploring VTX is not exactly fun if each branch and backing
    up takes *MINUTES*!
    
    IMHO, put batch commands into VTX (as options) and let's have that
    ANNOUNCEMENT conf., we would still want to make comments on them.

	Has anyone communicated back the Sales Update people saying that
	the VTX interface isn't cutting it for long distance? Complaining
	here in DIGITAL certainly might vent feelings but won't cure the
	problem..

							mike

	If so many people think an announcements conferernce is such a
	good idea why don't one of you open one? Failing that I believe
	that Mike makes a good point that if the sales update type
	people are not getting you the information you want/need in a
	way that you can use you have an obligation to tell them.

			Alfred

    Re: Note 864.26 by COOKIE::WITHERS

>A major failing of the sales update is that there is usually no data about
>when the item in the article will be *announced*.

    The rule of thumb that I have found to work for me for the last six
    years in sales without an exception that I can recall is this:

         When an article appears in Sales Update announcing a new product,
         the new product is announced as of that date, and you can talk
         about it freely with customers, UNLESS the article specifically
         states a date in the future that it will be announced.

    Re: Note 864.29 by ZPOAC6::HWCHOY

>   I feel that we have wasted enough resource (both the world's *read
>   forest* and DEC's) publishing stuffs like sales updates (ie pure text)

    I agree with you that we send out too much paper, but PLEASE don't
    advocate that anyone takes away the hard copy Sales Update. It is the
    one thing that sales people depend on for the basic information about
    our products.

    I also think that an announcements conference is a good idea. It would
    give a chance for some two way discussion, rather than just read only
    distribution of the announcement info. I might consider opening one,
    but the system I am on does not run the VAXnotes server. I could create
    a conference, but nobody could access it, except local users. :^) 

    Re: Note 864.30 by STAR::MFOLEY

>	Has anyone communicated back the Sales Update people saying that
>	the VTX interface isn't cutting it for long distance?

    The VTX Sales Update has a comments feature that I have responded to on
    a number of occasions. As far as I have been able to tell, it is either
    broken or completely ignored, since there is never any kind of response
    to the comments, nor apparent reaction to them. I have not tried
    other forms of communications to the Sales Update folks, which I
    should do, I suppose.

    Rich

    That rule of thumb is only _coincidentally_ correct.  SALES UPDATE
    tries but sometimes fails to match the actual announcement date to the
    SALES UPDATE cover date.  The only way to be sure that something has
    been announced is to attend the press conference yourself, or read
    about it in the Wall Street Journal or other newspaper with business
    coverage, or the trade press and look for the key elements of
    "announcement":

    (1) Price is firm and announced
    (2) Availability is firm and announced
    (3) Digital will take _orders_ now
    (4) Relevant descriptive details of the product are fully disclosed

    All sorts of cases have happened:

    (1) Product announced _before_ SALES UPDATE appearance (common)
    (2) SALES UPDATE appearance _before_ product announcement (common)
    (3) Product announcement with no mention in SALES UPDATE (rare)
    (4) SALES UPDATE appearance, product announcement canceled (rare)

    Yielding:

    (1) embarrassment (2) exposure (3) confusion (4) disaster

re. notes 864.30 and 864.32:

If the feedback loop directly to Sales Update is not satisfying you,
try the ACCESS Program Office, which is available from the top level
ACCESS menu.

Your comments will be passed along and hopefully responded to (sorry,
I'm ending a sentence with a preposition!).

\ken

    Re .33 (Pat):
    
    >That rule of thumb is only _coincidentally_ correct.  SALES UPDATE
    >tries but sometimes fails to match the actual announcement date to the
    >SALES UPDATE cover date.  The only way to be sure that something has
    >been announced is to attend the press conference yourself, or read
    >about it in the Wall Street Journal or other newspaper with business
    >coverage, or the trade press and look for the key elements of
    >"announcement":
     
    One of the biggest stumbling blocks, to reiterate a point, is that
    the word "announcement" has two meanings in Digital-speak (or
    DECspeak):
    
    1) Letting the field know that something is available (usually through
       Sales Update (or, more rarely, Sales Flashes).
    
    2) Letting the public know something exists and is available (_generally_
       via press releases or press conferences; sometimes just through
       sales literature).
    
    Compounding the confusion is the advance coverage of a to-be-announced
    product (e.g., a story in a weekly tabloid) through investigative
    reporting.
    
    >All sorts of cases have happened:
    >
    >(1) Product announced _before_ SALES UPDATE appearance (common)
    >(2) SALES UPDATE appearance _before_ product announcement (common)
    >(3) Product announcement with no mention in SALES UPDATE (rare)
    >(4) SALES UPDATE appearance, product announcement canceled (rare)
    
    Re 1: For a public announcement (definition 2 above), this has sometimes
          occurred, but in such cases, a Sales Flash is supposed to be sent
          out to let the sales force know what's happening.
    
    Re 2: A public announcement isn't supposed to take place ordinarily
          until mat least three days after the appearance of Sales Update
          -- the operative idea is that the sales force ought to have
          something they can reference if they get calls on the day
          of (public) announcement.
          
    Re 3: Usually such cases aren't press announcements, unless they're
          program announcements.  A program announcement would concern
          some sort of future product without going into specifics (e.g.,
          when the MicroVAX I system was announced at a press briefing,
          Ken mentioned that a "more powerful" MicroVAX II system would
          be available some time in the future.  That constituted a
          program announcement: no date, availability, price, or general
          specifications were announced.
    
          Also, a sufficiently minor product might not warrant Sales
          Update coverage.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

 
    Another pass at this... is there is single point in the company
    where press releases come from?  Maybe the notion would be that
    whichever the media (VTX or NOTES) used to distribute, that there
    be a place where all press releases would be available for viewing.
    To my mind, Sales Update has the meat, but most of the time what
    your looking for is confirmation that something has been released
    to the press, whether it be a product, a hiring freeze or fiscal
    results.  Some customers just love to make their DECie squirm by
    saying 'So I hear your salary is frozen...'.
    
    More grist for the mill.
    
    bonj
                        

    re: .36
    
    The Live Wire facility in VTX would seem to perform that function 
    today.  It is maintained by Corporate Employee Communications.  What
    that organization is/does and how it relates to Corporate Public Relations
    (if at all, or even if it matters) is a mystery to me.
    
    Al
    

    If someone can point me at the appropriate channels to negotiate
    forwarding of press releases and product announcements, I would
    be willing to try to set-up an "Announcements" notesfile, and decide
    if the thing would fly or fall once and for all.
    
    Please contact me off-line with ideas regarding:
    
    1) write-locked conference or open.
    2) "auto" moderation tools (if any other than the obvious batch
    tools)
    3) ways to reduce maintenance workloads
    4) appropriate content
    5) if open conference, then appropriate conference policies.
    
    at TRCO01::FINNEY or Ken Finney @TRC
         
    Scooter

>    <<< Note 864.38 by TRCO01::FINNEY "Keep cool, but do not freeze ..." >>>

>    If someone can point me at the appropriate channels to negotiate
>    forwarding of press releases and product announcements, I would
>    be willing to try to set-up an "Announcements" notesfile, and decide
>    if the thing would fly or fall once and for all.
 
Well said. It's this sort of initiative and a willingness to try something
new that we should be encouraging. All too often there's a lot of talk
in a notesfile and nothing ever happpens. Thanks Ken

	Craig.