Conference 7.286::digital

    Maybe because systems without Digitals knowledge have been sent
    to South Africa and then illegally sent to communist countries.

    I worked in the General International District (GIA) about six years
    ago - at that time, the district's territory included most of the
    African continent; we had distributors in Zimbabwe and Nigeria.
    Olivetti, an OEM HQ'd in Europe, had its South African subsidiary
    OK'd at the time as a buying location, so we would deal with them
    from time to time.  A couple years later, that subsidiary was
    removed from the buying locations list on Olivetti's contract; we
    moved control of Africa over to the Europeans (made more 'time zone'
    sense).  As far as I knew, we've always had a policy of not doing 
    business in South Africa.
    
    Kathy

 Massachusetts - To restrict dealings with firms. Digital mentioned.
	{The Boston Globe, 24-Jun-89, p. 1}
   The Dukakis administration, preparing to restrict its dealings with
 companies doing business in South Africa, has developed a list of offending
 firms that includes Digital, General Motors, and Gilette Corp. The
 controversial list has been in preparation for months and includes more than
 3,000 companies. State officials say there are 437 firms on the list that
 currently do business with the state and will be forced to compete for future
 business at a disadvantage. The Dukakis administration is billing the list and
 accompanying regulations as the most far-reaching of any state in terms of
 putting pressure in the apartheid government in South Africa, as well as
 neighboring Namibia. They are based on an executive order issued by Gov.
 Dukakis in January. But the list is sure to cause a furor in the corporate
 community. Digital, one of the state's largest employers, is already saying it
 does not belong on the list. The listing of General Motors may also make it
 more difficult for the administration to continue to steer state contracts to
 the firm's troubled Framingham, Mass., plant. Digital spokesman Mark
 Fredrickson denied the Maynard-based firm has any operations in South Africa.
 "If the list defines itself as companies doing business in South Africa, and
 we're on that list, we believe it's in error," Fredrickson said. "Unlike
 companies struggling to divest, Digital never invested." Ric Murphy, the
 state's purchasing agent, whose office developed the regulations and the list,
 said many companies were contacted about their South Africa holdings before
 being put on the list. He acknowledged the possibility of some mistakes,
 however. Massachusetts companies on the list include Cullinet Software, EG&G,
 Foxboro Co., General Cinema Corp., Prime Computer, Raytheon and Reebok
 International. Other firms affected include Apple Computer, Bechtel Group,
 Budget Rent-a-Car, Coca-Cola, Coopers & Lybrand, Eastern Air Lines, Ford
 Motor, Goldman Sachs & Co., Mobil, Motorola and Xerox. The executive order
 bars the Dukakis administration from doing business with companies based in
 South Africa or Namibia. The order also penalizes companies that do business
 there, forcing them to bid 10% less than a company not operating in South
 Africa in order to win contracts. Murphy said the cost penalty is intended to
 deprive companies of the profit advantage they hold in South Africa. He said
 it is hoped other states will follow the example of Massachusetts and put more
 pressure on the companies. The regulations are full of exemptions and
 potential wavers in areas of telecommunications, medicine and instances where
 the company's product is a necessity and cannot be obtained elsewhere. "What
 we tried to do was not stop the operation of state government," Murphy said.
 "I'm not going to say everyone is pleased, but I think the business community
 feels it is a  fair policy." The order applies to companies, so the purchase
 of an Apple computer or Xerox copier from a third-party vendor would not be
 covered by the regulations. The regulations only apply to agencies under the
 governor's direct control, but Murphy said certain state authorities have
 indicated a willingness to be covered. He declined to name the authorities.
 Legislation approved by the House Ways and Means Committee this week would
 basically extend the regulations to all state agencies. The committee also
 approved legislation that would allow Tenneco, a company listed as doing
 business in South Africa, to receive easements from the state so one of its
 subsidiaries could build a gas pipeline into the region across state-owned
 land.

It sounds like DEC ought to rethink its commitment to the Peoples
Republic of Massachusetts.

During 1974 - 76 I was the GIA Field Service Support Supervisor
and ran the GIA Flying Squad. It was my job to send field service
any place needed, including SA. I also had to answer telephone
inquiries from potential customers and potential hecklers
regarding "Do you do business in SA?" I read them a statement
prepared by our coprorate legal office. It said (roughly) that we
do not have an office there, but if you own DEC equipment there,
we can let you know the names of other local companies that own
DEC equipment. These other equipment owners might be willing to
help fellow DEC equipment owners with service problems in time of
need. 

When real DEC equipment owners needed service, they called me
and I would schedule one of the flying squad members to visit the
customer's site. We never singled out any customer, anywhere and
said "We won't service your DEC equipment because we disagree
with your government, or politics, or religion, or cultural
background, or (any other reason).....". 

There was some discussions at a high level about opening an
office there. As you can probably guess, there were people who
didn't want an office there because were morally offended by the
SA gov't policies, people who felt the potential for trouble from
protests would outwiegh the small amount of business, and people
who wanted to open new territories without regard for local
politics. The result was a conscious decision to NOT establish a
business presence in SA or to activly seek new business there.
But, we should always be willing to service our equipment because
we have an implied obligation to our customers to repair what we
build. 

Bob Hough

    The tenor of the replies to this note give me the impression that
    there is little that employees think Digital can do to oppose the state's
    classification.  I thought that, under U.S. law, a person was
    innocent until proved guilty.  Is this not the case here ?
    Doesn't the state have to furnish proof in support of its charge?

    re: .6
    
    As best I can tell from this topic, Digital Equipment Corporation
    hasn't been accused of breaking any laws, so "innocent until proven
    guilty" doesn't apply.  I hope there is an appeals procedure for
    the list, but if there isn't there is probably nothing we can do.
    In general, a private corporation cannot sue a state government
    without its permission, so we can't even take Massachusetts to court.
    
    Depending on the loopholes companies that OEM our products might
    be able to bid for state business without penalty.  Maybe that's
    good enough.
        John Sauter

    I am not voicing any opinion here but "We will service our product even
    if it is in SA" does have hallow ring to it especially considering the
    random newsclips of equipments being being seized before their way to
    Eastern Europe.  It is highly unlikely that GIA Flying Squad will be on
    the next plane to Leningrad if the ``hypothetical VAX 8800'' there
    stops functioning. 
    
    - Vikas 

    
    I have a feeling this could be the straw that breaks Ken Olsen's back. 
    
    As far as Dukakis goes, it would not be appropriate to discuss my
    feelings about him in this or any conference.
    
    /prc

rep .9

>    Eastern Europe.  It is highly unlikely that GIA Flying Squad will be on
>    the next plane to Leningrad if the ``hypothetical VAX 8800'' there
>    stops functioning. 
    
As a matter of fact, even back in the 1970s, Digital sold
computers, installed them, serviced them, and taught customer
maintenance course in Russia - Leningrad included! We have sent
GIA flying squad, European field service, and Massachusetts-based
Ed Services people into Russia and Eastern Block countries. Back
before we "normalized relations" with China (about 1975), I sent
a GIA flying squad guy into Bejing to fix a PDP8 with an RF disk
peoblem. He was the first Digital person into China and he saw no
Americans there. We responded to a request for service in a
country that was closed to normal US travelers - closed by both
the Chinese and U.S. governments and we had to get clearance from
both governments, but we did it.

Bob Hough

    Re .11 -- Hi Bob!  Looks like the People's Republic has struck again.
    Assuming that computers are supposed to add something to the quality
    of life, we'd probably be better advised to open an Office in South
    Africa and put Taxachusetts on our own banned list.
    
    Anyone who thinks we don't do substantial business in the Eastern
    Bloc, including the USSR, is way behind the power curve.  I remember
    the Russian 11/780 maintenance class in Bedford too......not to
    mention the Chinese class a few years later.
    
    I believe most of our Eastern Bloc business is handled out of Vienna.

    Anyone who thinks we don't do substantial business in the Eastern
    Bloc, including the USSR, is way behind the power curve.  I remember
    the Russian 11/780 maintenance class in Bedford too......not to
    mention the Chinese class a few years later.
     
However, this buiness is "official" above board, and with State Department
authorization.

The problem with South Africa is that we say officially that we don't
do business in South Africa, then turn around and sell to companies (Olivetti?)
who we know resell our gear there.  This is trying to have it both ways.

Martin.

While I was working for Digital in Brasil during 1972 thru 1974, I 
made 2 trips to South Africa on DEC business.  Once to install a PDP-8L
at a university and once to repair a PDP-8I.  The customers that I met told
me that there was a considerable amount of DEC equipment in the RSA.  As I
recall Olivetti was mentioned as the #1 DEC OEM selling into the RSA at that
time.

    The discussion in this note amazes me. Here in the Federal Rebublic
    of West Germany we have very strict export licence Regulations which
    we are told are based on US Laws. We are not allowed to do any business
    with a range of "communist" countries - I'll provide a list in a
    later note. There are special restrictions for "nuclear" companies.
    With regard to South Africa and Namibia the rule is that the end-user
    must not be part of the police or military. I have been working
    under the cheerful impression that Digital does not have any
    investments in South Africa and would be disturbed to learn that
    this is not so. Has Governer Dukakis got his facts right ? If he
    has, then for me Digital has some questions to answer. 
    I shall get back to this note when I have got the list of countries
    we are not allowed to deal with.
    - Kevin Mannerings @FRS   

I don'y think the readers  have  understood  this  yet,  so  here it goes
again.

We don't have any investments  in  South Africa, and we have cancelled or
modified OEM agreements with those who explicitely showed South Africa as
their selling target.

I  remember  particularly  an  OEM from Zimbabwe who  made  most  of  his
business selling to  South  Africa  and  we  caused  them a great deal of
trouble when we told them to stop it.

The market in South Africa at that time, around 1984,  was  moving  along
quite  well and it caused the district in charge of Africa at  the  time,
the  General  International  District in GIA, a big hole in its business,
when the orders came down from the very top to stop dealing with SA.

/OLD

    This note is shaping up as a classic!  What a shining example of
    enlightened self-interest.  I don't know about you, but here's what it
    sounds like to me:
    
    "Apartheid in South Africa?  Beastly practice!  Yes, let's put the
    economic screws to them.
    
    "Exxon?  Get them out of South Africa!  How dare they profit from
    slavery?
    
    "IBM?  Get them out of there!  They make plenty of money already.
    
    "Harvard?  What a bunch of hypocrites.  Force them to divest.
    
    "Digital?  US?!  Hey!  Wait a damn minute.  Who the hell do you think
    you are?  We're making MONEY OVER THERE!!"
    
    *	*	*	*	*	
    
    (And this is for a company that isn't actually doing business there!)
    
    (With apologies to Sam Kinison...)

    A long time ago, in a place far away, in response to a suggestion
    that my then-employer not do business with Union Carbide then-operator
    of North America's two most polluting plants, I received a personal
    letter from Tom Watson.  It suggested that a business is a business,
    and yes, it should be a good corporate citizen (which we were) and
    be exceeding moral (which we were), but that the imposition of one's
    views from a position of strength was only just when dealing in
    the area of one's expertise.  
    
    I'm still not sure I agree with it, perticularly on a situational
    basis.  BUT...  the world has certainly unfolded as it should with
    respect to the two companies in question - the moral one thrives,
    and the other had to sell Eveready to the dog-food company to pay
    for it's many transgressions.
    
    One might well ask what Digital was doing making money in the US
    25 years ago, mightn't one?
    

    What may not be clear to our non-United States readers is the role of a
    state, in this case, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and the role of
    the federal government.
    
    States, and cities, may establish their own criteria for qualifying a
    vendor.  If you don't like Digital, then don't buy systems from them.
    
    These criteria do not need to "fair", although one can expect them to
    be challenged in court if they are vague, serve no public purpose, or
    the blacklisting of Digital is based on incorrect information.
    
    Certain federal laws apply to United States companies doing in business
    in South Africa, there hasn't been a accusation of Digital violating
    such laws.

    I am just glad that Miracle Mike has so much free time on his hands to
    come up with this 'policy'.  Maybe a state budget is just around the 
    corner?
    
    Brad.

       RE: .20
       
       	Ya, he's writing the check for the balance now.. :-)
       
       						mike

    re: .19 Thanks for the explanation Pat.
    
    
    
    - ���

During the American Civil War there were many northerners who thought
that slave-holding was a matter of "states' rights".   These same
people thought that the federal govt had no right to tax (that was
the right of the individual states) and beat up on Lincoln because
he was trying to change the system.

The intellectual heirs to this now sit in New Hampshire among the worst
and most underfunded school districts, with towns and roads that are falling 
apart, drive to Massachusetts for jobs (or depend on Mass-based companies 
for jobs), call the state names, engage in Duke-bashing, and believe in the
right of the criminal apartheid state in South Africa to enjoy the fruits
of its criminal actions in the United States.

Massachusetts may or may not have made a mistake with respect to Digital and
other companies on its list. The action taken right now is to create a
proposed list. There is no requirement that Mass provide the evidence to
Digital in a Notes-compatible format. There is an appeal process that I am
sure most companies are going to follow. That should be a good enough
application of due process -- a company is NOT a person and specifically,
there is no need to presume "innocence until proven guilty". Unfortunately,
companies have MORE rights than persons, at least under current US and world
law. (If a company could be treated like a person, Union Carbide might have
received the death penalty or at least life with no hope of parole).

	At least Mikey has time on his hands in MA and not DC!  :>)

	Re: .22

	Andy, not everyone may understand your NOTES personal name.  Have you 
had any inquiries on it?  :>)

>               -< Sick and tired of Duke-bashing in Notes-files >-
>
>The intellectual heirs to this now sit in New Hampshire among the worst
>and most underfunded school districts, with towns and roads that are falling 
>apart, drive to Massachusetts for jobs (or depend on Mass-based companies 
>for jobs), call the state names, engage in Duke-bashing, and believe in the
>right of the criminal apartheid state in South Africa to enjoy the fruits
>of its criminal actions in the United States.

	  I'm so glad that you're right and everybody else who
	disagrees is wrong. This kind of sermonizing belongs in
	soapbox, where I would be happy to debate it.

	Roy

    If there wasn't so much tiresome Duke-bashing here, there wouldn't be
    so much tiresome Duke-defending either. Please lighten up.

	>Ya, he's writing the check for the balance now.. :-)
  
Mike, Did you mean to say he is writing the check for the BOUNCE now? :-)

	- mark     

re .23:  On the surface, your arguments appear to make little sense.

>>During the American Civil War there were many northerners who thought
>>that slave-holding was a matter of "states' rights". 

Slavery was acknowledge in the constitution.  Remember the section that
states that congress could not restrict slave trade (importation?) until
1808? Slaves were 3/5ths of a person for census and taxation reasons?
So it was a "state's right", since the actual laws prohibiting or condoning
slavery were either written into state law or the individual state's
constitution.  

The civil war wasn't fought to free the slaves.  That was a secondary issue
not brought up in force until sometime after the war started.  Actually,
the South almost brought off secession, and had they done it earlier in
Buchanan's term would have been much more likely to succeed.  Most of the
secession took place at the end of 1860, and Lincoln didn't take office
until April 1861.

So until the constitution was amended, slavery was a state's right.  

>>These same people thought that the federal govt had no right to tax (that was
>>the right of the individual states) and beat up on Lincoln because
>>he was trying to change the system.

Lincoln introduced an income tax to support the war.  As I recall, it was
abolished shortly after the war ended and not reinstituted until this
century.   He did, however, attempt to change the system in a lot of 
undesirable ways.  For example, he started a war with the newly formed
confederacy that resulted in a loss of 3 million lives (the constitution
says nothing about secession of member states - therefore it's a state's
right to secede).  He suspended habeus corpus.  As mentioned, he introduced
an income tax.  The draft laws were unevenly applied as the rich could
supply a surrogate or pay to be excused.  

>>drive to Massachusetts for jobs (or depend on Mass-based companies 
>>for jobs),

Digital is based in Mass., so yes, I worked for a Mass. based company.
That's pointless. The last company I worked for was in Texas. I lived in
Pennsylvania at the time (well, for most of the contract I was out of the
country, but my official domocile was in Philly). This had nothing to do
with not liking Texas (never been there & don't really care to go), but
rather that since I never had to actually visit the company's property I
didn't see any point to moving to Texas.  

Unfortunately, I don't really know what business Digital has with South
Africa.  I would hope none.  However, you must remember that under the
definitions stated by many of the pro-embargo types, it's virtually
impossible to buy anything that doesn't have some connection with SA,
or any other country for that matter.

Matt

    This topic has safely run it's DIGITAL course and is now off somewhere
    else.
    
    I'm write-locking it.
    
    - ���, Co-Moderator

From:	FDCV06::OGRADY       "George - ISWS - 262-8665/223-3890" 11-JUL-1989 14:02:31.10
To:	LESLIE::LESLIE,OGRADY
CC:	
Subj:	

    Andy,
    
    You write locked note 846, Digital in South Africa.  I would like to
    post a reply to it and inform the masses that the Commonwealth of
    Massachusetts has removed Digital and Reebook from the list of
    businesses doing business in South Africa. This according to the Boston
    Globe, 7/11/89.
    
    Can you please post that?
    
    thanks, 
    
    gog

In light of the following announcement, it seems reasonable to reopen this
topic.  Please try to stay on the subject as it relates to Digital.

					Steve


Worldwide News                                         LIVE WIRE

 Digital to announce South Africa subsidiary ...             Date: 24-May-1993

                 Digital to announce South Africa subsidiary 
 
         Digital tomorrow will announce the opening of a wholly owned 
   subsidiary in South Africa, Digital Sales & Services South Africa 
   (Pty.) Ltd. The new subsidiary will begin operations July 1, with 
   headquarters in Sandton, outside Johannesburg. Digital has never had 
   direct operations in South Africa. With the opening of Digital South 
   Africa, the corporation now conducts business in 14 African nations and 
   100 countries worldwide. 
         The company's commitment to South Africa extends beyond the role 
   of an information technology vendor. Digital will participate in the 
   country's transition toward non-racial democracy through a strong 
   community development program and employment practices aimed at 
   increasing the economic and technical empowerment of South Africa's 
   historically disadvantaged population. 
         Alan Peters, who most recently worked in European headquarters 
   in Geneva, has been appointed general manager, Digital South Africa.  
   Alan has held a series of senior marketing and sales management 
   positions during his 24 years with Digital. He will lead a diverse, 
   multicultural team consisting largely of South Africans along with a 
   small number of experienced Digital employees who are transferring in 
   from other countries. The standards of equal opportunity, affirmative 
   action, and community involvement that guide Digital throughout its 
   worldwide operations will be fully embraced by Digital South Africa.
         In addition to creating the direct subsidiary, Digital announced 
   its association with two local companies. Bheki is a newly formed South 
   African company that will operate as an authorized Value-Added Reseller 
   (VAR) of Digital products and solutions. It is capitalized by Thebe 
   Investment Corp. and other South African organizations, with majority 
   black ownership. 
         Enos Mabuza, chairman, Thebe Investment Corp., Ltd., said, 
   "Digital's principled approach to South Africa has embodied a clear 
   commitment to consulting the business leaders of the black community 
   and respecting our views. We could not have had a more perfectly 
   suited partner than Digital."
         Digital also announced the signing of a VAR agreement with 
   Olivetti Information Technology (OIT), under which OIT will market 
   and sell Digital products and solutions based on their expertise in 
   certain market areas.
         "Digital has a firm commitment to establish a lasting presence 
   in South Africa, and with the confidence that the country has turned 
   the corner toward a new day," said John Sims, vice president, Strategic 
   Resources. "We believe there is both a strong market for our products 
   and services, and a positive, constructive role for Digital to play in 
   the South Africa of today and tomorrow. 
         "We have been closely monitoring the economic, political and 
   social climate in South Africa for the past two years, and the time 
   has come to participate rather than observe," John added. "This is a 
   historic day for Digital, one we have awaited with great anticipation."  
         Alberto Fresco, vice president, Digital Europe, is responsible 
   for operations in Africa, the Middle East, and Southern, Central and 
   Eastern Europe. "South Africa represents one of the world's most 
   exciting and promising new markets for Digital," he said. "It is 
   estimated that approximately $1.7 billion is invested in information 
   technology annually here, which, until now, made South Africa the 
   largest market in the world without a Digital presence.  Many of our 
   major international customers operate here, and they have asked 
   Digital to come and support them as we do elsewhere.  We are 
   delighted to finally arrive in this dynamic and exciting country.
         "As much as any other factor, the people of South Africa need a 
   healthy economy that is growing and providing new jobs," Alberto 
   continued. "Responsible foreign investment is clearly one of the 
   keys to that. Another is the increased productivity and competitiveness 
   that world-class information technology solutions can bring to bear on 
   many challenges. We have witnessed this in several other countries 
   undergoing massive change in recent years, and been quite proud of the 
   role that Digital's technology can play in such circumstances."
         In a broad-based commitment to South Africa's historically 
   disadvantaged communities, Digital will launch the first phase of its 
   community development activities with the South African introduction 
   of Project REACH -- an innovative human development initiative that 
   addresses several primary needs among young adults: education, self-
   empowerment, leadership development, and reinvestment within the 
   community. 
         Digital's commitment to Project REACH in South Africa, which 
   will be increased by the participation of other corporations, will 
   result in more than 100 scholars, previously chosen by non-governmental 
   organizations and foundations for bursary and scholarship support, 
   participating each year. Project REACH -- which stands for Road to 
   Educational ACHievement -- will make a four-year commitment to each 
   student, providing a comprehensive program of academic support, 
   leadership development, job internships, and community service. The 
   project has been uniquely adapted for South Africa, patterned after 
   Project REACH, which has been successfully operating in Boston, Mass. 
   under Digital's sponsorship since 1988.     

    see note 2533