Conference 7.286::digital

    The Personnel reps often act as intermediary in situations between
    employee and manager.  However, one shouldn't expect that Personnel can
    offer solutions that do not involve one's own management. 
    
    Marge

    While Personnel reps often do get involved in manager/employee
    conflicts, they are *not* your advocates.  Their responsibility
    seems to be limited to ensuring that the Company's policies and
    procedures are followed.  *You* are ultimately responsible for
    getting higher-level management involved, with the authority
    needed to resolve the issue.  That is the true purpose of the
    Open Door Policy.  If you feel that you need an advocate, and
    it's a job-threatening situation, I believe that the American Way
    is the safest way:
    
    Get a lawyer.  It may be distasteful and expensive, but it's better
    than seeing your job or your career flushed down the pipes.

    Geoff

    .-1 is on the money.  I went to Personnel once when a high-level (read
    that Area) manager was interpreting the letter of the law to his own
    benefit, and hurting my career advancement a great deal in the process.
    The answer I got was that, yes, Personnel agreed that what he was doing
    was in no way the "right thing", and that it was not fair to me nor was
    it the right thing for Digital.  But, I was told, their responsibility
    begins and ends at the Orange Book, and since the guy was not clearly
    violating any policy, they would not intervene in any way.  The bottom
    line answer was "Tough Noogies."  That was the first and last time I'll
    *ever* expect any help from Personnel when I need it. 
    
    							Pat

        RE: the advice in .2 -- getting a lawyer is an excellent way to
        turn what may be a resolvable difference of opinion into an
        adversarial situation.  You should view it as the last resort. 
        
        While "personnel" may not be your advocate, it is their job to
        help with issues around interpretation of policies.  If they are
        not being responsive, that's an issue that can be addressed
        through the "Open Door Policy" (which is one of the many policies
        documented in the Personnel Policies and Procedures manual, which
        you can read on VTX or by asking your manager or personnel
        representative to see their hardcopy book). 
        
        If you're unwilling to address a problem by exercising the "Open
        Door Policy", then you can't expect someone else (including a
        lawyer) to be your advocate.  And you won't always "win".
        
        Alas, it's problems like these that convince people that there's a
        need for a formal "ombudsman" at Digital, and I'm sometimes led to
        believe that they're right.  (There's already an "ombudsman" topic
        in this conference.) 
        
        Tom

         Personnel (recruiting?) is there to supply warm bodies into
         open job reqs. It is definiteley not there to serve those
         people after they are on board. My own bad experiance made that
         clear to me. 
                
         Tom, I am not impressed by the open door policy. Too many
         managers come from environments which did not support this and
         they thermselves do not now that they are in DEC. ODP is
         excellent as a concept, but dangerous in practice. It is too
         easy to shoot the messengers.
                  
         
         Barry
         

    re: .4  and the use and abuse of lawyers ...
    
    I certainly don't believe that you should go running to a lawyer
    just because your manager gave you a '3' when you thought you
    deserved a '2'.  But if the problem is so severe that it could
    cost you your job, or ruin your career, what then?  Hopefully,
    you've already explored the ODP, and you have some idea whether
    or not using the ODP will backfire on you or not.  The ODP is
    a great policy, but it's only as strong as the managers who
    implement it, and they are only human.
    
    You don't have to tow the legal beagle into the manager's office
    to get results;  but you often *do* need a source of expert advise
    in such matters.  Things like how to properly document your attempts
    at getting the issue resolved, and how to put the P&P to work for
    *you*, and not have the manager dismiss it with the wave of a hand.

    Don't forget:  managers have a whole stable full of Company lawyers
    that they can turn to for help if they need it, and it doesn't cost
    them anything to do it.  It's my unfortunate experience that many of
    the people who go up against managers don't realize that unless they
    prepare themselves beforehand, that it's just their word against the
    manager's, and that the manager will come out on top every time.
    
    Geoff

    
    I am not sure exactly what the role of most personnel people in
    Digital really is, but I do know what they require for on the job
    tools.........a footstool, a package of hostess twinkies, and the
    latest copy of people's magazine.

    Personnel, now often called "Human Resources," to me has multiple
    functions none of which includes thinking for us or even lifting
    a finger outside of well defined lines (P&P) but once you understand
    this (I didn't for a long time) they can be a useful resource for
    you.  I have gotten gobs of info from my PSA over the years - often
    in the form of who to call to get the real dope.
    
    Now I also realize we work for a big company and there are personnel
    people and personnel people.  Hopefully, your PSA gives you the
    information you need.  For my problems over the years, information
    was essential to action.
    
    I strongly agree that personnel organisations seem to be a pain
    in a general sense.  When you deal with personnel, you deal with
    an individual who may or may not want to help.  Most important,
    even then, is the info - not the action; somehow you must create
    the action.
    
    Chuck
    
    P.S. A friend of mine advised me once, "if you've got a turkey for
    a manager, outlast him."  I know this works sometimes.

As a near 15-year employee who started out dangerously naive, I sympathize
with the author of the base note. Back around 1976-7, and even as late as
1980 (in patches) I used to think that an appeal to Personnel would help to
solve my problems. No way!

My experience wholly agrees with most of the previous replies - Personnel can
be a valuable resource, but don't ever expect to unload your problems on them
and have everything "made better". Neither Personnel, nor anyone else in the
company, is Mother. It's deceptively easy, because of all the informality,
friendliness, first-naming and advice, to think that you're among friends
and they will rally round and help you solve your problems. To fall into that
way of thinking is harmful for you and the company.

The mental model of this situation which seems best to me is to think of
yourself as a small independent company (maybe a self-employed consultant).
That forces you to pay attention to ALL the interfaces with ALL the people,
not just the obvious ones - like the tasks in your in-tray. No company would
devote all its resources to productive work, to the exclusion of necessary
administration! No, they have finance, accounting, legal, personnel, corporate
planning, marketing, PR all humming away in the background. As an individual
you must perform all these functions for yourself.

Then it's natural to think of a chat with your manager as a customer
presentation or a sales call - and don't forget to close it! Having closed,
you need to have order admin schedule delivery, and make sure you keep the
commitment. Your corporate planning and marketing activities consist of
assessing your strengths and weaknesses, finding out what the company's needs
are (now and in the future), and deciding how you can use your strengths to
meet those needs in a mutually profitable way.

Of course all this involves a certain overhead, which may be hard to account for
on xLARS, SAMS, or whatever time reporting system you have to use. Either
persuade your boss of the need for planning, or do it on your own time.

Back to Personnel. In this model, they are a large firm of external consultants.
They have a reputation for being heavily biased towards your main customer, even
financially linked with them. Their main interest lies in satisfying that
customer, not you. But they have masses of useful information, so you can
commission reports from them, as long as you keep the decisions to yourself.

Finally, here's a little anecdote. One day long ago, in a Field Service
office far away, a group meeting was coming to a close. The final
speaker was the new personnel rep, a pleasant young lady with blonde hair
and a sweet smile. She gave a short, very bland presentation and asked for
questions. One of the troublemakers got up and asked "What, exactly, does
Personnel do for us?" The reply was even blander - along the lines of "When
you're sick, you can call on a doctor; in the same way, when you have problems
at work, you can call on Personnel".

Undismayed by the concentration of managers (including the regional FS manager)
standing right behind the personnel rep, the troublemaker replied in the
immortal words:

"Yes, but if I needed a doctor I wouldn't pick one that was paid by the
bacteria!"

--Tom

                                  
    PERSONEL IS A PASSIVE ORGANIZATION PAID FOR BY YOUR MANAGEMENT!
    
      (The previous relpies have but things exceptionally well.)
    
     Who said ``No man is an island?''  He probably never worked.

    Regarding the original note I posted.  I dont look for Personnel
    to resolve problems for me, but I had hoped they would be independent
    of management.
    
    An example a  problem I encountered:
    
    My manager and his manager institute a new policy which seems to
    be against standards set at most workplaces I am familiar with.
    
    Before I go to my manager with my complaint, I would like to know
    if Digital has a policy regarding this issue.  I call my personnel
    rep and ask.  She wants to know why I want to know.  I explain the
    new policy and my concerns.  She tells me that I should work this
    out with my manager.  Again I explain that I want to know Digital's
    policy before I take on my manager and his manager.  She again tells
    me to work this out with my manager and will not give me any
    specific policy information.  
    
    Sometime I feel that in the field, Digital corporate policy is seen
    as being optional.
     

        Wendy, it sounds like you have an uncooperative PSA.  You have the
        *right* to know what Digital's personnel policies are, and you
        *should* be able to find out all the policies of your own
        organization (although, unfortunately, in some organizations the
        policies are not written down, and hence are subject to change
        without notice). 
        
        For example, there are written personnel policies about working
        hours and related issues about the workplace, but there are not be
        policies about things like what kind of desk you get or other
        tools you may need to do your job, because that's really not a
        corporate-wide "personnel" issue. 
        
        You can access ALL of the corporate personnel policies that apply
        in the U.S. through the Corporate Videotex Library program. This
        way, you can see the *current* policy.  If you have VTX installed
        on your system, you can probably access the right infobase by
        typing the DCL command "VTX ORANGEBOOK".  (If this doesn't work
        for you, ask your system manager for help.) 
        
        Also, your manager and your PSA should have up-to-date copies of
        the paper "Orange Book", and they should allow you to access them
        without giving you any grief.  Unfortunately, some managers and
        some PSAs don't keep their books up to date, and some managers and
        some PSAs are defensive about employee requests to see the written
        policies.  That's part of why there's a VTX infobase.
        
        Tom

re .11

It sounds like your Personnel rep was being overly uncooperative, but...

All the policies are on-line:  Type VTX ORANGEBOOK.  Or ask to see the hardcopy
orangebook in every manager's and supervisor's office.

DEC's policies are not a secret.

    Just reading through these replies, it's evident that the separate
    functions within Personnel are being talked of interchangeably.  The
    PSA, Personnel Services Advministrator, is the administrative or
    clerical arm of Personnel. The recruiter acts as an applicant finder
    for management.  Your Personnel Representative is responsible for
    policy interpretation and intermediary role.  Often there's yet another
    person who handles relocation only and there are headquarters functions
    which address compensation and benefits.  
    
    If you go to your recruiter or your PSA to act as intermediary to your
    management chain, forget it!  It's your Personnel Rep who has that
    responsibility.
    
    Marge

    Here in my cost center at ZKO we now have a "Personnel Consultant"
    who fulfills the capacities of counselor, confidant, interpreter
    of policies, ombudsman, and related roles. 
    
    My experience with PSAs agrees with that given in .14.

    My experiences with personnel fall under 'all of the above'. I've
    relocated to New Hampshire, worked in Marlboro, and now back in
    South Central Area.  As to how to work with personnel, how they're
    motivated, who 'rates' them, and the fact that they are a necessary
    pain in the *SS, you're all right on the mark....
    
    One word of advice I got from a former manager that has pretty mucgh
    worked every time.  You may find yourself in a situation where you
    are going to be making a request of your manager that may not be
    received very well. You realize that the situation will probably
    escalate to involve personnel or will just involve personnel as
    a matter of course.  Also, personnel may be acting as an advisor
    to the manager as to the correct way to proceed.  If this is the
    case, don't wait for your manager to take it to personnel.   Do
    it first.  Arrange a meeting with the personnel rep, consultant,
    manager or whatever and state your case.  Regardless of the outcome,
    this information would probably reach the personnel rep sometime,
    and it's best that they hear it from YOU rather then from a manager
    that is saying 'I have a problem with ....'.
    
    Personnel reps are, with few exceptions, human, and can therefore
    be swayed that tiny bit to advise a manager in your favor.
    
    (It's worked for me twice!)
    

    
    

    Personnel Orgs in Digital consist of:
    
       o  Personnel Consultants
       o  Comp & Benefits Admin
       o  Recruiters
       o  Education & Development (training!)
       o  PSA
       o  EEO/Affirmative Action
    
    Previous comments appear to be limited to only one dimension of
    Personnel's total function.  If Personnel disappeared, there would
    be many disappointed folks in the company!
    
    Personnel is not chartered to solve your problems. Period!  You
    are responsible for that.  Personnel consultants are there to provide
    info, advise, clarification, etc...  but they are not there to problem
    solve.
    
    Now I agree that there are some incompetent personnel folks in the
    company, but what about engineering? management?? purchasing???
     Are these goups any different?  Only the functions are.  People
    are the same..
    
    Personnel folks often work their butts off to recruit folks,
    administrate LTD, benefits, compensation, etc..
    
    Maybe the name needs to be changed????  Just thinking!

    re .12
    
    Is your manager a new hire ? It is unfortunate that Digital hires
    these new managers from other organizations and they are not trained
    properly on company policies. On the first day, they come on board, they
    are introduced to their new employees and that is all. From that
    point, they can run the department the way they want and most of the 
    times they tend to follow the policy of the organization they came
    from. In the field, most often the so called orientation training 
    ( 3 hrs of serman narrated by a junior personnel specialist with out
    any real substance -( only good things were Donuts and Video of KO ) is 
    conducted between 3 to 6 months after one comes on board. If your
    manager's manager is also a new hire, one will have a real problem. 
    IT IS LIKE A BLIND LEADING THE BLIND...
    
    I can bet my bottom dollar that if we give a surprise quiz to Digital's
    managers and personnel managers on Orange book- 90 % of them will
    fail. Those 10% are the real pillars of Digital and rest of the
    crowd just rides on the tides of the hard work and sweat of these
    10%.
    

    
    If you want to get promoted over certain level in FS, you'll have
    to go through an Engineering Review Board ( btw, it has nothing
    to do with Engineering, and not only FS, this virus is spreading ). 
    Wouldn't it be fair to have a 3h interview on DEC policies for all new 
    and "promotable" managers ?
    
    				respectfully submitted
    
    					Wlodek
    
    ps. Tom B. I like your personal name in notes, shouldn't advice
    you give us spell sometimes "notes" rather then "decisions" ? 

    To be a manager in Software Services, we have to go through the
    MDC, a review board comprised of an Area SWS Manager, two second
    level managers (usually DMs), and a personnel manager type.  We
    have to bone up on many facets of Digital's policies and then get
    quizzed on it.  This is whether new hire or otherwise.  So, I can
    say for SWS that we do have a policy that managers cannot manage
    without the required knowledge-base.  And, we go to the MDC only
    after a fully charted nine-stage obstacle course of interviews and/or
    classes.  I hope others have similar routes in place.
    
    ............ Dr. Suchindran S. Chatterjee
    

    re: .20

    >To be a manager in Software Services, we have to go through the
    >MDC, a review board comprised of an Area SWS Manager, two second
    >level managers (usually DMs), and a personnel manager type.  We
    >have to bone up on many facets of Digital's policies and then get
    >quizzed on it.  This is whether new hire or otherwise.  So, I can
    >say for SWS that we do have a policy that managers cannot manage
    >without the required knowledge-base.  And, we go to the MDC only
    >after a fully charted nine-stage obstacle course of interviews and/or
    >classes.  I hope others have similar routes in place.

    I think you were talking about a particular MDC in a particular area.  I
    just went through the MDC and...

    	- the Area SWS Manager was not there,
    	- nothing about Digital's policies was asked,
    	- I've NEVER heard of the "nine-stage obstacle course interviews"...I 
          haven't been to even a SINGLE managment class, and
    	- newly hired managers (with non-DEC management experience) didn't
          have to go through the MDC.

    I am not saying what you said wasn't true, only that the MDC doesn't
    have a standard form.  Its process depends mostly on Area Management. 
    And since it should only be a "developmental" board, as in "Management
    Development Committee", there is no pass or fail.  The hiring District 
    Manager is THE one who decides on whether the candidate will eventually
    be a unit manager.  I hope this clarifies things a bit.

    Thomas

        Perhaps it would be appropriate to start a new topic about
        "Becoming a manager at Digital" or "Where does Digital get
        its middle managers?", since this seems to be straying from
        the original topic (the role of Personnel), and I suspect that
        it's going to generate a lot of interest.
        
        Tom
        co-moderator