Conference 7.286::digital

    What three week cruise are you referring to? The use of a cruise
    ship as a hotel? I've heard that that was cheaper and easier
    then the hotel rooms it replaced. I haven't heard that anyone
    thought that DECworld wasn't worth the money. What have you
    heard and from where?

    			Alfred

    ...like how to sign up?

    The cruise I'm referring to is a cruise from LA to Cabo San Lucas
    and Puerto Vallarta to reward the DECathlon winners.I only know
    that the cruise is first class all the way.(the ship is from Princess
    cruises...the best)

    DECathalon, DEC100, etc. are the way we reward our sales people
    in liew of commissions, as in other companies.  If we switched to
    commissions, I wonder if there would be any savings.
    
    				Steve

    re:-1
    
    Just the airfares alone (all those people and significant others
    have to get to LA) would pay for a lot of commissions.

Re .0:

	What dive?  DEC stock prices have been basically flat for about two
    months.  That is up until last week.  It dipped right after the earnings
    were announced but has gone up more than 5% in the last week! It's looking
    better now than it has for months! 

    re: .5
    
>    Just the airfares alone (all those people and significant others
>    have to get to LA) would pay for a lot of commissions.

    You must not have ever sold anything on commission.  Some types
    of commissions run as high as 5% of sales, and on a 2 million
    dollar budget (pretty normal for DEC) that's $100,000.  Not
    exactly pocket change ...

        SO why do we wan't to convince the world that we are tightening
        expenses. That would give the market perception that we are in
        trouble. Also, I think if you check your numbers, the Cost of the
        commissions would be far in excess of the Decathalon trip. A
        typical computer sales rep would get 20-50K in commission if they
        were good. You can't tell me these Decathalon winners who have
        brought in several $M each don't merit some reward.
        
        pyhi.... q
        
        

        re .7
        
        Agreed. I have been told that a good IBM 3090 sales rep can retire
        for life after a few successful years...
        
        q
        

	I think the LAST thing you want to cut when expenses are tight is the 
incentive to perform better.  Sales offers DEC-100, etc, SWS offers 
Excellence, District Challenge, etc, FS and EdS do something.  That's just 
smart management, and good employee relations.

	Incentive to perform should pay for itself.

Re: cruises, etc.

Doesn't it seem inequitable, though, that given a case where a SWS resident
manages to see an opportunity for a big sale, gets Sales involved, and it
gets booked by the acct Sales rep, that it's the Sales Rep that gets the
Decathalon trip to Acapulco or wherever, and all you might get is an
atta-boy?? 

This hasn't happened to me, but it seems that the system has some real
potential for injustices.

Al

RE: .-1

	The SWS Excellence awards have the most potential for inequity since 
the ranked list of IC nominees is prepared by qualitative judgements, not hard
numbers. However, the final list is determined by numbers, and everyone knows 
them by Q2.

	For ICs, it boils down to making your manager successful.  Be
perceived as being vital to your manager being successful, and you will get a
high position in the nominations.  In your example, the successful Sales
effort would lead to Certs success and Sales satisfaction success.  Hopefully
Customer Satisfaction and SWS revenue would follow!  Those combine to make
successful managers.

    While I am basically a techie-type, In previous jobs I have been
    involved in technical support of sales people. While there certainly
    are opportunities for inequities in this system, my feeling is,
    whatever we have to do to keep the sales force motivated is worth
    it. I wouldn't have their jobs for any sum of money (well... almost
    any sum of money).
    
    I hope they had good weather!!!!
    
    pds

    .-2  I think that Excellence awards for Software are more de-motivating
    than motivating as they are so subjective ('qualitative'?)
    
    Why don't they have less of a bash, and include a few more SWS people
    in the incentive.  I.E.  A weekend away at a local resort with yr.
    significant other?  
    
    This year SWS excellence awards was in Hawaii for 4 days.
    

>    .-2  I think that Excellence awards for Software are more de-motivating
>    than motivating as they are so subjective ('qualitative'?).

	So, you want budgets like the Sales force? :>)  Seriously, Field SWS IC 
participation in Excellence is based on about the only thing we have control 
over - CLIENT SATISFACTION!  That's customer and Sales, BTW.  Management 
participation is based on that AND budgets, and on an AREA basis, at that!  We 
had some real good, butt-busting managers, including my DSWM boss, who 
stayed at home because of poor Sales certs and SWS revenue that were NOT under 
their control, thus their "window" was small.  As for motivation, I was VERY 
motivated this year, and Excellence was one reason.  Re-read the .2 reply 
about "...vital to managements' goals..."!  When you can only nominate 18%, 
qualitative judgements have to be made.  After all, Excellence is about 
quality!
    
>    Why don't they have less of a bash, and include a few more SWS people
>    in the incentive.  I.E.  A weekend away at a local resort with yr.
>    significant other?  

	That's what the District Challenge and Client Satisfaction are for.  
District Challenge is the big one - an overnight for the whole District, and a 
dinner.  Client Satisfaction is dinner in your geography, but the whole 
District gets it.  These are designed to encourage teamwork, admittedly, and 
aren't subjective.

>    This year SWS excellence awards was in Hawaii for 4 days.

	Actually 6 calendar, and 5 "quality" days.  I didn't call riding in the 
middle of a wide-body for 8+ hours "quality" time!
    

    RE: .15
    
    We in Sales Support *DO* have budgets.  Mine is $5M product, $.25M
    PSS, and...for the real kicker, another $30K of PSS which I have
    to deliver (called Strategic Consulting).  
    
    I personally don't mind the last, as it will be comprised of Quick & 
    Dirty Consulting.  In fact, I'm in the middle of delivering 1/2 of it, 
    with another $30K to be delivered beginning next week.    
    
    What I do mind is being held responsible for irresponsible Sales
    Reps.  This includes those who would sell their mother, sister or
    first-born just to make the sale (& make DECathalon!).  Since we
    supposedly had the need, we hired a bunch of reps who I'd rather
    not work with, but have to.  So, we're turning the tables on them.
    WE ARE DRIVING...!  
    
    

RE: .-1

	OK, your District/Area has quantified the part about making managers 
successful, at least for Sales Support.  This still won't guarantee Excellence 
unless you make the nominee list AND your District's metrics make the window 
big enough.   That's one reason why I think budgeting IC's in SWS is pretty
worthless, and unfair.  The other has to do SWS "selling" in place of the 
Salesman, but that's for another topic.

	Sounds like your manangement is targeting District Challenge for a 
goal.

    RE: .-1
    
    Delivery Measurements...That's a REAL good question; and one of
    the reasons I got out of it.  Besides, I was doing inside selling
    (one of the non-goals of PSS at any site).  Figured it would be
    more fun doing it "for real."
    

>Sales offers DEC-100, etc, SWS offers 
>Excellence, District Challenge, etc, FS and EdS do something.  
>

    I like that: "FS and EdS" do something.
    
    Our awards are based on survey results; nothing more.  Kinda
    discourages individual excellence.  Why should I bust my butt, when
    the guy next to me is taking it easy.  After all, it's the average
    that counts.  Yes, the individual excellence is useful at performance
    and salary review time, but any raise I might get certainly won't
    buy my a week in Hawaii.  If our district does happen to win a
    DECservice award, then those who bust their collective butts get
    the same level of award as those who didn't.  Where's the incentive?
    
    Bottom line: there is no means of objectively rating a FS engineer
    for some type of excellence award.  As long as FS is a "team" effort,
    they will be rated as a team, and there is little or no incentive
    to be the best, outside of the pure satisfaction of it.
    
    	Stu
    	(as you might guess, in Field Service)

	I wasn't familiar with FS, at least from knowledge that they DIDN'T do 
individual recognitions.  I should know that.  EdS. does do something 
similar to Excellence, with a few days away for the awardees, but don't think 
they've done Hawaii yet.  Your program is like our District Challenge/Client 
Satisfaction programs.

	For discussions sake, do you think FS would benefit by an Excellence 
type program?  I think SWS did, and I've seen it from year 0 ('78).  When you 
have the caliber of top-notch talent DEC does in its service groups, those 
individual stroking programs are nearly vital to keeping the best with us.  
And most management researchers are saying that purely "salary" recognition 
ain't cutting it with the workers anymore.  They like those trips!

> EdS. does do something similar to Excellence, with a few days away 
> for the awardees, but don't think they've done Hawaii yet.  

	For the record, FY-88 Ed Services Excellence Awards were in 
	Colorado Springs.  In FY-89, they will be in Bermuda.
Frank

    
    FS does in fact have 'Excellence' awards. 
    
    There is way too little information exchange about who wins what
    and why. This leads to all sorts of assumptions and then to ranting
    and raving over things that aren't true!
    
    

>                             -< FS has Excellence >-
>    FS does in fact have 'Excellence' awards. 
    
Is this what you really meant to say ??  I have been in FS for 7 years and 
have been in Branches/Districts that have placed 1,2,9, and 10 in 4 of 
those years and DecService in th others.  We did win what was called Service
Excellence but that just meant 2 night/3 day trips instead of 1 night/2 day
trips.  There has never been an individual award in FS to my knowledge.

    
    FS does have individual 'Excellence' type awards. It has existed
    for about 3 or 4 years, originally just for managers (I think).
    It has been opened up to individuals but I don't have any idea what
    the criteria are. I do know an individual contributor type who went
    this year - as I recall it was in the Bahamas.
    
    If you ask your UM or DM (whatever), they should be able to fill
    you in.
    
    

    re:-1
    
    Just for general information: Those "excellence" awards appear to
    be given out *totally* at random.I say appear because I just don't
    know...nobody in FS knows.(at least out here) Information about
    the criteria for winning such an award is non-existant. I have heard
    that individuals are just sent on the trip by his/her manager who
    is asked to send someone...there is *NO* competition.

    Speaking of awards....last year the Rocky Mountain DEC-100 winners
    got to go all expenses paid for one day to Houston for the banquet...
    ...in July.
    
    Heard on the street was that if you didn't win DEC-100 you went
    for two days.
    
    8')
    

    	It used to be unit winners were rewarded.  But now it HAS to
    be the district that qualifies.  Is it that way everywhere?  Why
    was this done?
    
    KMP

>    < Note 650.25 by WR2FOR::BOUCHARD_KE "Ken Bouchard WRO3-2 DTN 521-3018" >
>                           -< a little information >-
>
>    re:-1
>    
>    Just for general information: Those "excellence" awards appear to
>    be given out *totally* at random.I say appear because I just don't
>    know...nobody in FS knows.(at least out here) Information about
>    the criteria for winning such an award is non-existant. I have heard
>    that individuals are just sent on the trip by his/her manager who
>    is asked to send someone...there is *NO* competition.
>
    As I understand it, each area FS manager is allowed to send 5 or
    6 people for COE.
    
    There is some method behind the madness of selection.
    
    Last year, the criteria was "the account rep with the
    highest survey numbers from a national account".  Not very fair
    if you're not the acct rep for a non-national account.
    
    This year, it was "whoever had the highest number of 'atta-boy'
    letters from customers".  
    
    In both cases, the criteria was never announced beforehand, but
    was announced after the individual(s) had been named.
    
    	Stu
    

RE .27    
  > It used to be unit winners were rewarded.  But now it HAS to be the
  > district that qualifies.  Is it that way everywhere?  Why was this
  > done? 

    That change was made in SWS about 3 years or so ago.  I was one of
    many, many unit managers who fought the decision tooth and nail. Just
    because an entire district doesn't make budget doesn't mean that there
    weren't just as many individual contributors deserving of an award as
    in a district that blew its budget out of the water. Is it fair?  I
    don't think so, but then many things in life are unfair.  Is it the
    rule?  Yup, and it probably isn't going to change. 
    
    							Pat

    re:.28
    
    Well,I guess SOME criteria is better than none.

    re: District Challenge(?) and Customer Satisfaction... as *rewards*?
    
    While I agree completely that SWS Excellence Awards are demotivating,
    they did do a couple things right in the execution of this year's event.
    For one thing, they actually gave us a CHOICE some nights as to
    what restaurants you could go to. Thats the problem with District 
    Challenge and Cust Sat nights: I personally feel that going to dinner 
    with my S.O. amidst my boss and the DM at some restaurant in a ritzy 
    area (Beverly Hills) is such a stressful event that I will have no 
    desire (negative desire?) to go to. We have to do enough "work"-based
    socializing as it is at events like star day or district kick-offs.
    If these district *.* motivational programs are to work, they should be
    completely fun and not consist of having to watch ones every move 
    because several levels of higher-up management are everywhere.
    So my suggestion is to make these inclusive events have more choice
    in them as to venue and timing.
    
    erik 

    Re: -.1
    
    I recall a night last year where all of the software people in our
    district got together at one of these "really nice" places.  All
    of the management was there, including the district manager...who
    ended up being the target for more than one paper airplane (we were
    imitating one of our aerospace customers).
    
    There were "many" positive highlights of this dinner, including
    great company, meeting new people, talking about horror stories,
    and just a generally good time (we got down right rowdy).
    
    I think when you see these situations as being "stressful", it must
    have alot to do with the attitudes and management styles of your
    managers (DMs and UMs).  In our district, we have a management team
    that is fair, strong, willing to reward for good work, and *FUN*.
    
    Doug

    I envy you. I agree it depends on the district. Even in our regional
    geography I've seen management who is more fun and I think the key word is
    tolerant of who you really are (inside the corporate suit/clone/cog).

    e.

    re .28
    
    The criteria is revealed after the individual is named, right? This
    would definitely keep someone from `ballot box stuffing' by, for
    instance, asking all their customers to write atta-boy's. But, unless
    the criteria is drawn at lots, or kept hermetically sealed in a
    Mason jar on Funk and Wagnall's porch since the beginning of the
    rating period, this could allow a favorite son choice, backed up
    by whatever criteria happens to fit.
    
    My $.02

    .various:
    
    Back in '87, there was some sort of FS award trip to (I believe)
    Bermuda.  Our group was involved with DECworld, so the acting UM finagled
    a rescheduling to go with European FS -- to Europe.
    
    That was pretty neat.
    
    His choices for the two people to go, however, weren't.  One of
    them happened to be perceived by his peers as being weaker in technical
    affairs than several people junior to him, and comments were heard
    about "rewarding poor performance".  After a goodly amount of criticism
    and some consultation with, er, higher levels of management, it
    was decided to send instead another fellow, well-known for his
    expertise (and acerbic tongue in this affair :-)
    
    I might add that the method of selection consisted of putting some
    names in a hat, and drawing out two;  it was not made clear to me
    whether everyone in our unit had their names in the hat, however.
    
    Oh, I neglected to mention the other choice.  This was a fellow
    who had a title of (I think) "Business Manager", and he was an
    independent contributor (no direct reports).  The reason why choosing
    him did not sit well with some of us was that this fellow also happened
    to be the acting UM.
    
    Dick

    (I might add that this affair convinced me that it was time to leave,
    and that several other people of skill and talent have left that
    unit as well.)    

    re: .4
    
    I am sure that when they (sales) were hired, they knew there were
    no commissions.  If they did not like that idea, they did not have
    to take the job.  For those who say "we want good sales reps and
    wish to keep them", I say what about good FS people? And they don't
    get individual awards.
    
    re:  .7
    
    If they (sales) want a commission, let they work for a company that
    pays commissions.
    
    
    re: .8
    
    How many of those $M sales would sales make if Field Service (FS)
    did not do their job right?  However, FS only gets an award if the "TEAM"
    makes it.
                 RIGHT ON .19
    
    re:  .10
    
    In FS there is no incentive per person as in some of the other
    "departments" of DEC.
                  RIGHT ON .19
    
    re:  .11
    
    I've helped a sales rep that make a DECathalon trip and I got a
    case of beer.  Any more, they will have to make in on their own since
    it is an "individual" award.
    
    
    It appears that only FS has to be a "team", or be in a DM position
    or higher, to get any type of an award.  As a FS person, for 15
    years, I have felt that FS has gotten the short end of the stick
    from DEC when it comes to awards.  However, when $ is tight, FS
    is told to tighten on expenses, because it is field service's monthly
    income that helps pull us through when sales AIN'T bring in that
    $M.
    As a wage class 4 FS, I don't get extra pay for the after hours
    or week-ends that I am expected/required to work, so where is my
                           .  incentive
                           .  award  
                                   

There is an individual award for FS.  One engineer from our district went 
on the EXCELLENCE trip.  I asked about it and was told there was an 
individual award but that it was at ?someone's? discretion and the award 
was not publicised(?sp).  In other words if you won it no one was supposed 
to know you won except those who needed to know and those people wouldn't 
know if they needed to know until they knew.

PS If you don't like being WC4 take a WC3 job, simple as pie.

>    I am sure that when they (sales) were hired, they knew there were
>    no commissions.  If they did not like that idea, they did not have
>    to take the job.  For those who say "we want good sales reps and
>    wish to keep them", I say what about good FS people? And they don't
>    get individual awards.

I'm not in Sales, so please don't flame at me here.  The differentiation 
between Sales and the other field functions is based purely on business.  
It's a fact that our good sales people could get high-paying jobs with 
other computer vendors.  They could get those jobs more easily and with
higher salaries/commissions than field service, SWS (where I work), Ed
Services, or any other field organization.  Digital has to counter that
somehow, and the obvious way to do it is with money. So Sales has higher
salary ranges than the other organizations, and they get wonderful trips,
etc. that the others don't get.  It's a fact of life. It's business,
nothing else.  And I'm personally glad Digital does that, 'cause as a
stockholder I want the company to do whatever it takes to attract and keep
people who can move our products in the marketplace. 
    
>    How many of those $M sales would sales make if Field Service (FS)
>    did not do their job right?  However, FS only gets an award if the "TEAM"
>    makes it.

The same could be said of Finance, SWS Sales Support people, our 
secretaries, ...

>    I've helped a sales rep that make a DECathalon trip and I got a
>    case of beer.  Any more, they will have to make in on their own since
>    it is an "individual" award.

I've helped a sales rep that made DECathalon and not even gotten a case of 
beer.  It's called doing my job.

							Pat
    

    < Note 650.36 by TILTS::HICE >
                          -< something for everyone >-
>I say what about good FS people? And they don't get individual awards.

    Gosh, Henry, poor memory.. Anita went to Bermuda, and her desk is
    only 15 feet from yours.  She *IS* in Field Service, ya know..
    
    karl (just Tucson folks squabbling, now back to our regular rathole)