Conference 7.286::digital

    Interesting.
    
    I've been investigating this myself for similar reasons.  Didn't
    hear about the new rule, though.
    
    I've seen policy on VTX (it's called CORPFIN or some such thing
    on my A1 mail node) that says that all used equipment have to be
    *trashed* (that is, made unrepairable) and sold as scrap.
    
    What a pain.
    
    I know a nice little school that could get excited about a PDP-11/23
    (or some such thing), but will have to go back and get another IBM
    grant instead...
    
    -- Russ

    I wonder if there is a valid (believable) reason for this new
    rule...like some clever federal regulation that says that DEC must
    pay taxes on that equipment...or is our company merely shooting
    itself in the foot by letting other companies get all the good will?

    re: .0
    You mentioned DIAL... I'm sorta new here.  Is this some type of
used equipment clearing house?  I'd be interested if there was such
a thing.

/harv

See if you can access Corporate Finance Policies from your local VTX
service.  Look under the Finance & Admin menu, or do <PF1><KP7>CORPFIN,
or try VTX CORPFIN.

Policy 301-18, revised 22 May 87, is "Disposition of Excess, Obsolete
and Scrap Inventory".  It is lengthy and includes the section below,
which is a partial answer.  The policy also explains how inventory
is transferred to Property Disposal Centers.

DIAL is "Digital Idle Assets Listing", and is one of the points inventory
passes through (long) before it reaches a PDC.  They're in the phone
book: 285-6151; they're a source for equipment to be used internally,
*not* for personal use.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(from Policy 301-18, revised 22 May 87, "Disposition of Excess, Obsolete
and Scrap Inventory")

Donations
---------
1.  Requests from charitable or non-profit groups for obsolete, damaged 
    or scrap inventory or equipment are to be directed to the Property 
    Disposal Center Manager. Requests for new equipment must be directed 
    to the Corporate Contributions Committee Manager (In Europe, contact 
    the Subsidiary or Area Contributions Committee as appropriate).

2.  Donations cannot be made by any individuals at the local site level 
    without the prior written approval of the PDC Manager or the 
    Corporate Contributions Committee.

3.  The PDC manager will donate equipment to charitable or non-profit 
    groups in accordance with the PDC's documented procedures, and will 
    obtain Contributions Committee approval where required.

    Re: 563.2 "I wonder if there is a valid (believable) reason..."
    
    Hmmmm.  Sounds to me as if it's an effort to protect our intellectual
    properties?  In the eyes of the law, couldn't it be that:  If we
    give it away it has no value therefore it isn't 'protectable'? 
    
    Especially in the case of software accompanying the systems we might
    give away -- it's hard to legally protect our rights to something so
    intangible.
    
    Of course, I'm not an authority, but that seems like a logical reason
    for not giving away our stuff.  
    

    re: .2, .5
    
    I tend to go with the argument that it may be a tax situation. 
    I'd have a hard time believing that Digital has gone this far with
    donating used equipment only to discover *now* that it weakens our
    intellectual property rights.  Corporate law would have spotted
    this years ago, I would think.
    
    A reversal at this stage sounds like the IRS (or some equally cheerful
    organization) is picking at the program to see if they can bleed
    a few more buckies from a corporate giant.
    
    But then again, what do I know?  I'm just a SWS clone 8^).  Anyone
    know a legal-type who might venture an opinion on this?
    
    -- Russ

    
    I think there is a certain level of thought around the idea that
    if we give stuff away to a school that's just one system less that
    we could be selling, either to that school or to someone else. And
    if you give away old stuff then why should the school purchase
    something new and, usually, much more profitable.
    
    You can argue either way on this one. On the give it away side you
    have non-tangiables like P.R., good will and students who get used
    to our equipment (on Unix, of course). On the other side we're a
    company in the business to make money.
    
    -Ray
    

    
    	I think Digital really loses on the issue of no freebies to
    schools.
    
    	When I was in college,out lab was almost *entirely* Dec gear.
    THis meant that all the people who took computer H/W classes,came
    out "Dec Compatible".People come up to speed in Dec faster if they
    already know the gear.
    
    FWIW,I never even *saw* a un*x till I got into the field and went
    to phone co. sites.
    
    			/tomg
    

Used to be DEC could take a tax deduction on the full value of the donated
equipment.

The Feds wised up to this, and now only allow a tax deduction on the remaining
assett value.

/john

    Another reason might be that if we donate a piece of equipment that is
    obsolete... who is going to support it??  Our SWS hotline takes
    numerous calls each year from schools and churches who have "donated"
    WS-78s using OS-78, etc.  We send most of them to DECUS, doesn't have
    much info either.  An unsupported system does NOT lead to potential
    satisfied customers. 
    
    

    Then *WHY* can't they sell it to employees, like they used to?!?
    
    There was never any expectation of support there, or much real
    expectation that we would buy DEC systems for personal use at list
    price, or even at employee discount for those few items on which they
    will still give an employee discount.
    
    There is NO WAY I can afford to upgrade the systems I built from
    salvage.
    

        I strongly suspect that the people who set the policies don't
        read this conference.  If you really want to see "employee
        salvage sales" resurrected, then you probably should get in
        touch with the people who run the Salvage Area.  According
        to the Digital Telephone Directory, the Corporate Manager for
        the Salvage Area is located in Maynard at Powder Mill Road
        (MSO), DTN 223-2019.
        
        I've heard it said that the reason employee salvage sales were
        eliminated was because of abuses.  I can neither confirm nor deny
        this from personal knowledge.  However, I suspect that the costs
        of managing such a program outweigh its benefits to the
        corporation. 
        
        As for replies that asserted that Digital doesn't provide free
        equipment to colleges, universities, and other organizations, this
        couldn't be further from the truth.  Digital makes significant
        grants of equipment to colleges, universities, and other "tax
        exempt" organizations.  This topic is about a change in policy
        around "used" or "surplus" equipment, not about new equipment.
        
        And, the policy (an excerpt of which is posted in reply .4)
        doesn't seem to say that NO used equipment can be donated, only
        that donations can't be done by local cost centers, but rather
        must be administered consistently through a central office, the
        Property Disposal Center.  
        
        Tom

RE: < Note 563.12 by "DR"::BLINN "Opus for VEEP in '88" >
                             -< Several points.. >-

>        As for replies that asserted that Digital doesn't provide free
>        equipment to colleges, universities, and other organizations, this
>        couldn't be further from the truth.  Digital makes significant
>        grants of equipment to colleges, universities, and other "tax
>        exempt" organizations.  This topic is about a change in policy
>        around "used" or "surplus" equipment, not about new equipment.
        
Maybe we differ only in semantics, but my understanding is that 
DIGITAL makes (new) equipment available to Universities at substantial 
discounts rather than as donations.  Is there a group that specifically 
<donates> equipment to universities?  Could you give me a pointer? thanx/j 

        Re: .13 -- from reply .4:

>   Requests from charitable or non-profit groups for obsolete, damaged 
>   or scrap inventory or equipment are to be directed to the Property 
>   Disposal Center Manager. Requests for new equipment must be directed 
>   to the Corporate Contributions Committee Manager (In Europe, contact 
>   the Subsidiary or Area Contributions Committee as appropriate).
 
        The secret to finding the Corporate Contributions Committee
        Manager is to know (it's not necessarily obvious) that this
        is listed under "Corporate Community Relations" as well as
        under "Corporate Contributions Department" in the Digital
        Telephone Directory:  DTN 223-9210, @MSO/K10.
        
        Sometimes Digital provides discounts to colleges, universities,
        and other organizations, and sometimes Digital gives stuff away
        outright.  I don't have a copy of the guidelines for when we do
        what, but I'd suspect you can get them by asking the Corporate
        Contributions Department. 
        
        Tom

    (I started this note way back when...)



    I still don't have a definite answer to my particular problem.  I
    wanted to donate a piece of used non-DEC equipment to a school.  I
    guess that the policy now is that local sites can ONLY send to salvage.
    I have heard from rumors that salvage sells to 3rd party and donates
    some equipment.  I'm going to see if I can reccomend the place to
    receive "my" equipment.

    As far as new DEC equipment, DEC routinely gives large discounts to
    schools.  We will give equipment (100%) to schools where we are doing
    research or there is some other DEC work going on.  The External
    Research group hears proposals of projects to fund at schools and
    decides on the level of funding.  There are probably other mechanisms
    for this also.  We often give DEC equipment (or discounts) in lieu of
    "real money", since it often is a better value for both us and the
    school.

    ---Phil

    
    
    Salavge does not sell, donate, or give any equipment or tools be they
    new, used or otherwise to any one. period. About twice a year they
    will have an employee sale to clear out things likedesks, chairs
   , files, shelves, benches, and storage bins but nothing thaty has
    everhad or could have power to it.
    
    electonic equipment is "salvaged" for gold or other precious metals.
    Any know toxins are separated, and the remainder is sshredded and
    sold as scrap. Changes in tax laws AND liability laws are the driving
    forces behind this policy.

Re .16:

Just furniture, eh?  If they are so afraid of liability problems, I hope no one
drops any fine Steelcase products on their foot.

And allowing electronic sales could actually help the liability situation. The
most rabid salvage fans I know (and dahlings, you know who you are) will
probably wake up to a hole in their floor and tons of PDP-11s in the basement if
they don't get a chance to upgrade to something with more VLSI and less vacuum
tubes.
				/AHM

    A FEW YEARS AGO I CHASED SOME NEW EQUIPMENT THAT HAD BEEN IN A TRUCK
    ACCIDENT AND WHAT HAPPENS IS THIS.AFTER THE INSURANCE SETTLEMENT
    DEC SELLS THE DAMAGED EQUIPMENT(IN THIS CASE SOME OF IT WAS NOT
    DAMAGED)TO A LOCAL JUNK DEALER.I THEN APROACHED THE DEALER AND
    HE SAID HE HAD TO SIGN A PAPER SAYING HE COULD ONLY SELL IT FOR
    PRECIOS METALS.
    
    

< Note 563.12 by DR::BLINN "Opus for VEEP in '88" >

>        I've heard it said that the reason employee salvage sales were
>        eliminated was because of abuses.  I can neither confirm nor deny

  What kind of abuse could result from an employee buying used equipment?
Couldn't the employee buyer sign away his right to sell or give the equipment
to a third party? There are lots of employees who would like to have DEC
equipment in their homes and are perfectly capable of taking care of it on
their own time and expense.
  Re new equipment damaged in transit: There used to be a group in Nashua that
refurbished such equipment to 'perfect' condition. Were they disbanded?

    	I have witnessed the very "abuses" that probably contributed
    to the elimination of salvage sales.
    
    There were employees working in manufacturing that would "damage"
    module boards, and then wait for those boards to get rejected and
    end up in salvage where the employee purchased them.
    
    I know of at least one case where an entire PDP-11 was put together
    (minus the cab) exactly this way, one board, cable, etc. at a time.
    
    Unfortunately, the many get punished for the acts of the few.
    
    							Warren

Another abuse was bribery of salvage employees either to set aside choice
equipment, or to gain access to such equipment which was previously set aside.
The bribe I heard of was a case of beer (I forget where I heard it).
				/AHM

Another reported abuse was the time a load of small PDP-11 backplanes
went to salvage.  After the backplanes were sold, large numbers of processor
and memory boards that fit into them were reported stolen from working 
systems in labs.

    
    
    The tales of bribery of salvage employees were running rampanat
    for a while, but it was all a crock of c**p. The guys were too smart
    to lose their jobs over a case of beer.
    
    The other abuses were not that wide spread but when hey were found
    out a big issue was made of it.part were bought from salvage and
    sold as new/used/reconditioned but no warrantees provided etc. so
    yes the many must suffer for the few but as stated previously
    tax/liability laws now have more to do with the no equipment sold
    policy.
    

    The memo that follows is rather explicit in saying that donation
    of used DEC equipment is at an end.
    
    In the past, I've worked the donation of some obsolete equipment
    from my lab through the reclaimation and dispostion group.  The
    non-profit recipient of the equipment was rather glad to get the
    VT52, DF02, LA36, etc.  (if you ever happen to visit the observatory
    on top of Mount Washington in N.H. you just might see some of this
    stuff).  It seems a shame that still-useable items can no longer
    be donated.  But as some of the earlier replies point out there
    may be some not-so-obvious reasons as to why this is so.



From:	NAME: Nancy Dube @MSO               
	FUNC: Corp. Comm. Relations   
	TEL: 223-2221             <DUBE.NANCY AT A1 AT WITNES AT PKO>
Date:	03-Aug-1988
Posted-date: 03-Aug-1988
Precedence: 1
Subject: Used Equipment Policy

To:	MIKE FLAHERTY @MLO



---------------
| | | | | | | | 
|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|                        Interoffice Memorandum
| | | | | | | |



TO: Distribution                       DATE:  July 1988
                                       FROM:  Nancy Dube Corporate Community                                               
Relations                               
                                              Bill Boudette
                                       DEPT:  Property Disposal Center                                                
                                       
                                       EXT:   223-2221
                                       LOC/MS: MSO/K10

SUBJECT:  DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION - USED EQUIPMENT POLICY


                                 ANNOUNCEMENT

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY - ALL DONATIONS OF USED EQUIPMENT ARE TERMINATED.  
THIS MESSAGE SHOULD BE COMMUNICATED TO DIGITAL GROUPS THROUGHOUT THE U. S.  
WHICH INCLUDE FINANCE, MANUFACTURING, PLANT MANAGEMENT, AND COMMUNITY 
RELATIONS REPRESENTATIVES.

While we recognize there is some value gained through donations of used 
equipment - there are other ramifications for the corporation to consider 
with regard to all of its current used equipment inventory.  Therefore, it 
has been decided that all donations of used equipment are terminated 
effectively immediately.

During FY88 an extensive assessment was conducted on used equipment 
donations.  This included review of the process, criteria, costs, and 
benefits, of used equipment donations to the company.  The Used Equipment 
Task Force was represented by the Property Disposal Center (PDC), Corporate 
Contributions, and Corporate Materials Group.  Based on the Taskforces' 
finding it has been determined that the donation of used equipment will 
cease immediately.






***** Distribution Lists Removed *****
    

        It would be interesting to read the Used Equipment Task Force's
        more detailed report (I'm assuming there was one), in which
        they reported what they learned and described their analysis
        of the data they gathered.  The conclusion is simple and very
        straightforward, but the decision process is what's interesting.
        
        Tom

Giving used equipment (actually non-current equipment) was stopped in the
UK quite some time ago.  The reason given was that it was not possible to
give the recipients of the equipment the same level of service for
maintenance and so forth that is possible with new/current equipment. 

I believe it was also felt that it was poor PR to be ever seen to be giving
away cast-offs and that giving a shiny new VAXmate or whatever looks much
better from the PR point of view. 

The fact that the organization receiving the equipment may not care or be
happy to get anything did not come into consideration. 

jb 

From .24 - 
>  While we recognize there is some value gained through donations of used 
>  equipment - there are other ramifications for the corporation to consider 
>  with regard to all of its current used equipment inventory.  Therefore, it 
>  has been decided that all donations of used equipment are terminated 
>  effectively immediately.

I have to agree with Tom in .25 (and others) - it would be nice to know _WHY_
and _HOW_ they arrived at these decisions. That's one thing that's always
bugged me about this company - somebody reaches a decision through some
process, and informs you of what the decision is but not the rationale behind
it. I'm glad to know that "there are other ramifications for the corporation
to consider" but surely it would hurt no one to tell me precisely what those
ramifications are.

Perhaps people mistakenly think that no one will care?

-Jack

This note is a bit dated, but it looks like the right place to ask:

I am interested in purchasing a DEC 433dx that I have been using at my home for
the last year.  I'll be leaving DEC soon and would like to buy the PC.

Any ideas where to get a price quote?  What's the policy?

thanks,

Keith R>

    Good luck.  We've got some broken VT340s here I can't even GIVE away. 
    Paperwork's prohibitive, s'what I've been told.
    
    								Tex

    Check out VTX WASTE for the policy.
    
    	dave
    

    re:28 - there is a list of applicable used/idle computer equipment for
    SERP and TFSO people.  Ask a finance person.
    
    Personal Computers		$100 ea
    	Rainbows
    	DECmate i, II & III
    	PROs 350 & 380
    	VAXmate PC500
    	DECstation (2xx series)
    	DECstation (316 series)	 250
    
    Printers		  	  75
    Modems (older series)	  50
    Terminals - VT1xx, VT2xx	  50
    Terminal/printer stands	  10
    
    Exceptions to this list require written approval of the VP for cost
    center.
    
    (I tried to get the vp to lower the cost of a DECMate III - but he
    won't.  It will cost more to do the paperwork and then to have it
    crushed - but he's stubborn.  I feel that $75 is a reasonable price
    for a DECMate III & LA75 - but he feels I should pay the $175)
    
    Trudy

Well, it looks as this might be an academic exercise....my manager won't sell
me the hardware. He feels that it's too difficult to get replacements these days.

:-(

    
    
    PDCSTORE has them for $50.00, type 'VTX PDCSTORE'
    

    I see this as management's last parting shot at departing employees. 
    Of course, in my situation, I want my 3100/76, chunk the PC.  :-)

    Is there any organization within Digital that would help a DEC customer
    locate a recipint for a gift of used equipment?  I have a friend with a
    running PDP11-?? who would like to GIVE it to some worthy organization.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jim
    

    My personal favorite is education.  Maybe Rollin Grossholz, Tennessee Board 
    of Regents, could find a home for it there.  (615)366-4453 or:
    
    		[email protected]
    
    								Tex

    re: last two
    Years ago (early '80s) I was involved in the School system in San
    Antonio, Tx.  I worked with Corporate Contributions to arrange for a
    donation of a PDP 11/34 to my kid's high school.  We got the equipment
    and the software.
    
    The whole project failed because we could not get "support".  The
    equipment was all DEC and the local field service org. could/would not
    provide the support to install/maintain.
    
    If you are successfull in finding a recipient for your PDP 11??, be
    sure to address the problems of getting/keeping it running.
    
    
    tony
    (once bitten)