Conference 7.286::digital

    Define your terms, DEC...
    
    full-time temporary workers = ?
    
    ...DEC TAGs?
    ...contracted agency temps?
    ...direct-contract freelance professionals?
    ...Kelley-persons?
    ...regular DEC employees who float from position to position as
    needed?
    
    In any case, I've heard that the 118,000 (or so) DEC employees are
    outnumbered by the various sorts of temp and contract "employees",
    and I believe it!
    
    Sherry
    

    We have a bunch of temps from an outside agency. They don't get
    holidays or benefits, but their hourly wages exceed ours. 
    
    What I really don't like is the turnover. You take a new person,
    train him, and a few months later he gets a permanent job
    elsewhere. Result - a new person to train. Over and over.
    The worst part is when you get an outstanding person, who learns
    quickly, becomes a real asset, and leaves a few months later.
    (This happened to me - I *strongly* recommended to TWO supervisors
    that this particular person be hired. He's now a supervisor in
    a friggin' tofu factory!) Equally bad is looking at the people
    who remain.

        The lack of continuity, and the frustration, along with the loss
    of experience, makes this practice undesirable.

re .-1

Any of this sound familiar?  Like maybe the comments WE'VE had from
customers complaining about "training OUR people"?

D

    If this is a trend, it is worrisome.  The phrase "address the wide
    fluctuations in demand" sounds like a euphemism for "lay off".
    And since disposing of temporary employees is not technically a
    lay-off, companies like Digital can proudly point to a  record
    of not laying off employees!
    
    A few years ago someone in my group whose mother works in a Digital
    manufacturing plant said that, according to his mother, most of
    the hourly plant workers are temporaries.  I suspect the quoted
    figure of 3,000 temporary employees is lower than the actual figure.
    

Maybe it's hypocrisy, maybe not.  Using temporary/contract workers
was common practice in mfg a few years ago.  Fluctuation in demand
is not euphemistic: the contracts were monthly or quarterly; if
there were more workers available than production required, contracts
were not renewed.  This is regarded as sound management practice,
and no doubt it's one way we avoid having layoffs.

> were not renewed.  This is regarded as sound management practice,
> and no doubt it's one way we avoid having layoffs.

I think one reason why this is a 'sound management practice' is that it plays
well on Wall St. and in college placement offices. Often when I tell people
outside DEC that I work for DEC, they rave about how DEC has gone for 30 years
without a layoff.

The system of using temporary employees is how the large Japanese companies
are able to offer "lifetime employment" for their permanent staff.  I think
that in Digital there is a close parallel.  Both Digital and the Japanese
are very successful - partly because of this approach.

jb

    Yes, both Digital and Japan are considered very successful (at the
    moment).  Yes, there are strong parallels between the Japanese lifetime
    employment system and Digital's practice of permanent temporary
    employment.  Is there, then, a relationship between employment practice
    and success?  Not a direct one.  Certainly, companies that have
    been organized differently have been successful.  To attribute the
    marketing success of our products to labor practices is to fall
    victim to the "halo effect" of our favorable press.
    
    The practice of "perm-temp" employment is good to the extent that
    it increases profitability.  But, beyond that is it really a good
    idea?  Are we creating a two-tier labor force of permanent, secure
    employees and a base of insecure temporaries?  Should there be some
    protection given the perm-temps, like health insurance, 90-day advance
    notice of termination, etc?  Are we creating unproductive employees
    by shifting the risk of losing a job to perm-temps?  What happens
    to product quality if new perm-temps are constantly being retrained?
    

    Ahh, temping the art of doing anything to an extent.
    
    Being an ex-temp let me give you some of the pro and cons...
    
    Yes, you can work for alomst any company doing mostly whatever you
    want. Yes, you make good money.
    
    Alas, no health insurance, no medical benefits, no reimbursed education
    plans, no benefits, no stock plan, no credit union, and I could
    go on.  Plus you aren't always sure your job will be there tomorrow. 
                                                         
    Granted I enjoyed temping but in the end they make as much, if not
    less, than the full time employees.  They have bills which we don't
    really see because they are automatically deducted from our checks.
    Those bills add up in the end....
    
                                    D.

	Frankly I find this topic shocking! One of the reasons we
	wound up today with labor unions with all the negativity they
	imply is due to the prevailing corporate mindset at the turn
	of the century and earlier that it was ok to do almost
	anything to the workers in the persuit of maximum profits. The
	fact that Digital has created a two class system to allow them
	to exploit one class of people is disgusting. And lest anyone
	from the upper class argue that they don't have it so bad...
	consider how it would change your perspective if you never
	knew when you would be out of a job!

	Well... I guess we all had to wake up sometime...

	-Ed

    Before everyone goes off flaming against something *they* wouldn't
    want to do, let me present another viewpoint:
    
    My wife used to be a temp (not for Digital, but similar situations).
    Since I was already covered for family health, dental, etc., there
    was no problem there.  She was assured of having change whenever
    she wanted it, without the hassles of job-hopping, office politics,
    dead-ending, etc.  She also had the flexibility to take long periods
    of time off, as she did to attend college full-time one semester.
    And, she earned more *take home* pay than when she was a permanent
    employee, doing the same work.
    
    Granted, I wouldn't suggest this for a primary bread-winner (*not*
    intended to be a sexist remark), or someone with no other source for
    insurance, but it is a wonderful choice for some people.
    
    Since Digital uses these temps to respond to the cyclical nature
    of its business, this is probably preferable to the cyclical
    hiring-firing of some other large businesses (especially US government
    contractors).
    
    Bruce

    
    re .10
    
    Ed,
    
      Let me try to put a different perspective on what you are saying.
    When you are "sold" to MHT or Citicorp, *you* are the temporary
    contract worker.  Are you without benefits, educational reimbursement,
    etc.?  No.  Actually, your benefits are quite good (I know because
    I get the same benefits myself :-}). And doesn't Digital itself make a 
    bundle of money "selling" temporary workers to customers in the guise of
    Software Specialists/Consultants?   
    
    

Re. < Note 497.12 by NYASPS::CHURCHE "Jeanette " >

	Jeanette,

	It's not quite the same thing. DEC is a large employer. I
	don't know what the figures are but let's say for the sake of
	argument that we hire 10,000 people in the state of Mass. If
	ALL 10,000 were full time, fully benefited employees, this
	would mean that 10,000 people in Mass. would have the
	opportunity to have a career with DEC. Now let's say 40% are
	full time temporary employees. This means that now only 6,000
	people have a career opportunity. The remaining 4,000 are being
	told (in effect), "We want your labor for which we'll pay you
	money, nothing else is implied, the relationship does not go
	beyond this". Now if the job market had a surplus of jobs and
	everyone in the market has a choice between a real job and a
	temp job, do you think DEC could carry this off? Jeanette, do
	you really think 40% of the people who work for DEC would
	chose the temp positions? Hell no! DEC and some cute little
        MBA's in their pin stripe suits and BMW's are taking advantage
        of people under the guise of a "good business decision". Would
	it be a "good business decision" if nobody would play? And
	Jeanette, what percentage of temp employees working for DEC
	have benefits the way we do when we work for PSS?

	Don't kid yourself... This kind of "good business decision"
	creates a permanent "underclass" which will hurt us and the
	society we live in, in the long run. People ARE DEC's
	strength. 

	-Ed
	

        (Must be the weather, isn't it exciting when things get going)
    
Re. < Note 497.13 IND::FLADUNG "One person, one NODE!"
    
        > Now if the job market had a surplus of jobs and
        > everyone in the market has a choice between a real job and a
        > temp job.....
                    
        > Don't kid yourself... This kind of "good business decision"
        > a permanent "underclass" which will hurt us and the
        > creates society we live in, in the long run. People ARE DEC's
        > creates strength. 

        -Ed

<flame on>

        Who is kidding whom ed ??    Before ranting on under the premise
    that there are 'surplus' jobs in a economy, let's face the reality
    that DEC is just a player in the marketplace.  DEC's 'good business
    decisions' are reactions to market forces, and not ivory tower decisions.

    If people were not willing to accept temporary employment at whatever
    DEC is paying, then DEC could not hire temporary employees.
    
    I also cannot accept your underlying premise that just because your 
    job is called 'permanent' you have some sort of job security.  When 
    that last paycheck clears the bank, DEC and you are even.  In fact ed, 
    perhaps it is these temporary employees that allows DEC to offer you 
    a 'permanent' job.
 
    Andy.
        
<flame off>

re. < Note 497.14 by LDYBUG::BURKE "Andy Burke, MLO21-3 DTN 223-9923" >

>        Who is kidding whom ed ??    Before ranting on under the premise
>    that there are 'surplus' jobs in a economy, let's face the reality
>    that DEC is just a player in the marketplace.  DEC's 'good business
>    decisions' are reactions to market forces, and not ivory tower decisions.

This is undoublably true. However, My question for you is: do you have a set of
standards by which you treat (and hence "value" people)? Are you willing to put
your ass on the line to stand by those values? Or do you throw them out when it
is to your advantage to do so? I'm not suggesting that this may be black and
white. It probably isn't. But "values" are of no value if there is no risk in
adhering to them.

>    If people were not willing to accept temporary employment at whatever
>    DEC is paying, then DEC could not hire temporary employees.

This was exactly my point! maybe I didn't state it clearly enough. ;-)

>    I also cannot accept your underlying premise that just because your 
>    job is called 'permanent' you have some sort of job security.  When 
>    that last paycheck clears the bank, DEC and you are even.  In fact ed, 
>    perhaps it is these temporary employees that allows DEC to offer you 
>    a 'permanent' job.

First of all, Andy, I don't think I've stated anywhere that I believe that
everybody should have a job, cradle to grave with no possibility of loosing it.
I even have reservations about DEC's don't fire anybody, don't lay anybody off
policy. Policies should first and foremost be human and reasonable. I have a
real problem with granting one class of people extraordinary privilege at the
cost of denying reasonable privilege to another class. As a society we've been
through this movie before numerous times. I don't think you would advocate us
going back to slavery so that we could compete in the market place better. One
of the problems that came out of the spate of MBA's that were turned out in the
70's and 80's was a lack of any training in awareness of social responsibility
and responsibility for upholding group values. This has lead to attempts by the
leading business schools (ie. Wharton) to "require" all of their students to
take courses in business ethics and social responsibility. The "easiest"
decisions to make in business are "good business decisions". It takes much more
courage and "backbone" to make decisions which are not such good business
decisions but which uphold our group and social values. Dupont recently
announced that it was ceasing production of fluorocarbons due to the ozone
depletion situation. This was NOT a "good business decision". There are plenty
of other companies in europe who will fill the gap. It WAS however a socially
responsible business decision. When a company as large as Dupont makes this kind
of decision a lot of people notice and alot of people will regard the ozone
question very seriously because of it. Digital is not different. When Digital
puts it's stamp of approval on the concept of an underclass of employees a LOT
of people get the message.

-Ed

I have a problem with your premise, Ed, that full-time temp's are the
"underclass."

The workers we're discussing cover a broad range of jobs: sec'y,
programmer, paper pusher, and so on. I think it's a _gross_ generalization
to suggest that we as a company are treating these people in an "inhuman"
way. Just as an example, I've worked with tech writers who are "on contract" 
(ie f/t temp) who make a pretty penny doing the same job as our permanent
writers. I know that's "just an example" but it's not atypical.

The job marketplace will always have a need for this sort of service.
And there are people who prefer to provide the service. I'm having a
problem with your generic disagreement - surely you can see the utility
and advantages for the service provider and job provider?

Certainly there have been and will continue to be abuses of the policy
by some managers. That's just like any other policy we have. (And just
like any managers? ;^)) 

K.

    re:.15 et al,
    	I never expect myself to be arguing dialectic materialism from
    the right side of the aisle, but this business about DEC's "exploiting
    workers" is just plain silly.
    
    	Fact is, most American companies consider labor to be a resource,
    workers to be dirt, layoffs to be the norm.  Hence the need for
    unions.  Up here in Mass., with a very, very low unemployement rate
    (no surplus labor to speak of!), the joke is that some companies
    lay off just to keep in practice.  (No names, but that was said
    about the biggest employer in Mass. not DEC.)
    
    	At least at DEC, the vast majority (well over your 60% guess)
    of workers are _permanent_, and don't fret about layoffs all the
    time.  Some temps eventually get FT permanent jobs, others don't
    want them, and those who are in neither camp still get no worse
    treatment at DEC than anywhere else.  Economic reality:  The company
    couldn't afford to do without them.  Layoffs of temps (nonrenewals?)
    are still not common and not so unexpected when they occur, unlike
    the "angel of death" sessions at other companies.  (See the scene
    in the movie Broadcast News.  Some places are worse.)
    
    	BTW, I hear that in Japan, fewer than half the workers are
    "lifetime"; the myth excludes the temp nature of many/most jobs.
            fred

    RE:  .2  SPMFG1::CHARBONND
    
    I will agree that there are many "temps" that are shopping for a
    full time permanent position.  When they find it, they are history.
    There are other "temps" that do this sort of work as their "career".
    Chances are that they have been doing it for some stretch of years,
    and they know that if they leave your project at an inconvenient
    time, it hurts their reputation and therefore will limit them in
    the future.  Since you [read:digital manager] get to interview the
    temp, you have the option of finding out how stable the temp has
    been in the past.  On the other hand, I have known areas at Digital
    where temps were used because they could not find permanent employees
    who would agree to do the work for any number of reasons.  Sometimes
    it is the tedium of the task, or the departmental frustration level,
    or a just plain SOB manager.  In any case, I have observed that
    if a particular department is haveing trouble keeping temps, it
    may not be because of the general nature of the temp community.
    
    Marion

    RE:  2nd class citizen status
    
    I am a temp (if you hadn't guessed by now).  I have never felt that
    Digital treated me like a 2nd class citizen.  Unfortunately, I cannot
    say the same for some of Digital's employees.  You get used to it,
    though.  It sort of comes with the territory.
    
    Marion

    I am currently a DEC tag and have been one for almost 4 years now.
    
    While I was going to college, I found that this was a great way
    to work: flexible time so I could work summers, January and spring
    break, better pay than most of my friends, and meeting different
    people all time.
    
    Now that I've graduated, I want to stay here at DEC.  But now there's
    a hiring freeze on, and since we're considered EXTERNAL, no one
    will even interview me.  It's really difficult and frustrating to
    have a badge number and an official hire date of June 1984, but
    stillbe considered an outsider.
    
    Many DEC tags do not even know word processing and I think it's
    a shame that when there are no positions available that we aren't
    allowed to take classes, thereby making ourselves more valuable
    employees.  The people who hire TAGS hire them to be at their desk,
    and usually will not allow them to take classes on the job.
    
    
    Helen
    
    (Just to let you know, we are not considered INTERNAL because the
    ever-shifting headcount would mess everybody up. This is direct
    from the TAG office at the Mill.)
    

    re .20 > Many tags do not even know word processing...
    
    A minor tangent, but I thought it worth mentioning that there is
    a movement afoot to provide training to the temp secretaries from
    Office Specialists & other similar companies to get them trained
    in word processing and ALL-IN-1.  The thought is that when temp
    help is needed (full-time sec on vacation, etc), the temp will be
    able to "hit the ground running".
    
    Now back to your regularly scheduled note...
    
    Jon

    I'm in general agreement with many here that hiring temporaries
    represents a sound business decision.  Our needs fluxuate, so hiring
    people with the express agreement that their jobs are temporary
    makes sense.  
    
    Two reasons I say this are:
    
    1.  I worked as a temp for four years while my husband was in the
    Marine Corps.  Made lots of sense for me.  I got experience in various
    areas, learned a lot about different companies/organizations, had
    flexibility I needed, etc.  I was never treated as a second class
    citizen, nor did I feel like one.
    
    2.  My husband is presently on lay-off from Raytheon.  He's been
    out since my birthday (February 10).  With seven years seniority
    in the union, he's "hitting the street".  Interestingly, many
    people who were laid off with him are now working out of temporary
    agencies.  They don't want to go permanent 'cause then they'll be
    committed to doing another job -- their preference is to stay available
    in case they get called back to Raytheon.
    
    My husband and I both have over seven years' experience in our jobs.
    I have always felt secure.  He has rarely felt secure because of
    constant lay-off rumors.  I prefer the 'comfort' of DEC!
    
    And, if I were a temp (which I was), I would also understand that
    my job may or may not be there the next day.  That's part of the
    arrangement because I have told them, essentially, that I may or
    may not be there the next day!  
    
    

    I HAVE BEEN A "REGULAR" DEC EMPLOYEE FOR ALMOST 15 YEARS, AND MY
    RECOLLECTION IS THAT IN THE PAST, THIS PRACTICE OF HAVING A LARGE
    NUMBER OF TEMPS WAS NOT COMMON AT ALL.
    
    FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, I FEEL IT IS A BAD IDEA, FOR MANY REASONS ALREADY
    STATED (WHICH I WON'T REPEAT)
    
    I RECENTLY DID A CASE STUDY OF PEOPLE EXPRESS AIRLINES, WHO HAD
    A PRACTICE WHERE ALL EMPLOYEES WERE "MANAGERS" AND SHARED IN THE
    PROFITS. AFTER A WHILE, THEY STARTED HIRING TEMPS BECAUSE THIS WAS
    A "GOOD BUSINESS DECISION". SOON, MOST NEW HIRES WERE PERMANENT TEMPS,
    AND SOON THERE WAS A TWO CLASS SYSTEM. TENSIONS DEVELOPED BETWEEN
    THE TWO GROUPS AND THE "FAMILY FEELING" ENDED.
    
    COINCIDENTALLY, PEOPLE EXPRESS SUBSEQUENTLY WENT BROKE AND WAS BROUGHT
    OUT BY A BIGGER FIRM ...   

    A little background:

    From 1988 to 1992, I worked as a co-op at Digital while I was in school.
    Then in March of 1992, I became a temp here, working part-time, and then I
    switched to a full-time temp in June when I graduated.

    When I graduated, I pursued becoming a full-fledged employee with benefits,
    but at the time, my manager told me he couldn't, for budgetary reasons.
    A few months later, he started to look into it, but at that time I had
    decided I was going to go back to school this fall, and someone leaked that
    information to my supervisor, at which point he stopped trying to make me
    a full employee.

    However, I later decided that I needed to put off going back to school for
    one year, but I'm still, and likely will remain, a temp, until then.

    So... now we get to the real point of this note:

    Our group was notified about two weeks ago that 40% of us are going to be
    laid off on the 13th. As a temp, this will mean that I will get no package
    whatsoever. However, I've heard somewhere that there is a law requiring
    that companies can only have temp employees so long before they have to
    be hired as real employees. Did I just dream this up or is this real?
    If it's real, is a year and nine months over the limit? If it is, is there
    any chance of my getting a tfso package out of this if I get hit?

    Thanks,

    - Jim

    It is my understanding that as a temporary employee you must not be
    allowed to work for a full year. After 11 months it is mandatory that
    you take a month off. Otherwise, a "temporary" employee could be
    considered "permanent". You do not automatically become a full time
    employee, however. You could just could argue that you were treated
    like a full time permanent employee when you were here and should be
    entitled to the benefits. I wouldn't expect to get this just by
    mentioning it though. You'd probably have to go through a lengthy and
    expensive legal hassle.
    
    My 2�.
    
    /se
    
    

    Temps here (Tn.) had to take off 2 weeks (I think, maybe a month) every
    6 months. Check it out, you may have some recourse.
    
    RM

    Here in Albuquerque we use temp employees, second shift has more temps
    than perms. Many have been here over a year, critical need is the 
    latest term being used. Many do a full year then leave for two weeks
    and come back for another year. They are not elgible for any packages
    because they work for Manpower, Advantage, Sue Wilson, etc...they
    only get the benefits from their employers not Digital...they work
    at Digital for the company that sent them here, their employers
    pay for holidays if they have over a certain number of hours.
    Friday, after thanksgiving we worked, but the temps got straight pay
    as it wasn't a holiday for them...It appears to me being a temp sucks,
    I came here as a temp six years ago but was hired during my first six
    month contract.
    

RE: .25

>    It is my understanding that as a temporary employee you must not be
>    allowed to work for a full year.

   I haven't taken more than a day off at a time, besides holidays, since
   March of '92.

RE: .27

>    They are not elgible for any packages because they work for Manpower,
>    Advantage, Sue Wilson, etc...they  only get the benefits from their
>    employers not Digital...they work at Digital for the company that sent
>    them here, their employers pay for holidays if they have over a certain
>    number of hours.

   In my case, I am employed not through an agency, but directly through
   Digital; I pay for my own health insurance (while earning less than your
   average software developer.)

   Can someone suggest an influental agency or person I could talk to for help?

   - Jim

    
    re .28
    
    Mike McNamara, DTN: 297-5523 is the worldwide H/R Consultant in charge 
    of temporary employees. I'm sure he's delt with many agencies.