Conference 7.286::digital

My attitude is that we are not supposed to be taking this kind of business.
We are not a body shop - one look at the price book tells you that.  The 
reason a customer should choose DEC SWS is because we bring some added
value to a project.  What on earth are you being paid for if your advice
goes unheeded?  At $75 or $98 or $125 or whatever dollars per hour you
get, are you THAT much better in the programming language?; or THAT much
better at using LINK?;  is your code THAT much more error free?  I'll
bet not!

A proper relationship with a customer has to be built, and it takes time.
The customer I currently serve trusts us implicitly - we run the shop for
them.  We are the only staff he has.  This is, I admit, somewhat unusual
but it is a result of building trust over several years.  Nevertheless,
the customer is smart enough to realize that when he needs a job done
which DEC does not add any value to, he is better off spending $48/hour
getting top notch talent from one of our competitors.  We get to do the
management and design - our perceived strongpoints.

What you do in your current situtation depends on your guile and some luck.
Success, from my point of view, involves turning the customer around to
seeing things your way.  Ask any salesman what the first rule of account
management is, and he should say "Perception is reality".  The customer
is not always right in an absolute sense, but that will be of little
consolation when you get kicked out of the account because he *believed*
he was right!

If you are dealing with the "troops", your job is doubly hard.  You may
be seen as a threat, and egos may be bruised.  Tech types tend to have
vested interests and an almost religious devotion to certain software or 
techniques. For your own peace of mind, don't fight the battles with 
them - you will almost always loose.  In order for you to suceed, you will 
need to gain the confidence of those who make the decisions.  Your way of 
doing things should be based upon a solid understanding of the customers 
business needs and goals.  


People can be funny.  Before DEC, I worked for a tiny company headed by
an M.D.  He knew everthing there was to know about designing systems,
and he made sure he told you at least once a day.  Of course, he really
knew nothing, but I was not into premature termination.  Often, he
would insist that things be done some certain way which was completely
stupid.  Once I knew that I wasn't going to win the argument, I would
simply nod my head in acquiesence and go off to do it my way.  I had
learned that if you did it his way and failed, you got yelled at more than
if you did it your way and suceeded.  It was a bizarre way to do business,
but it worked.  The man was always happy with me because in the end, I
made him sucessful despite (or because of!) my insubordination.  Don't try 
this with your customer unless you are sure of yourself though!


As to your second question, you have no choice.  Walking away from the
account is the same as failing - you probably won't be asked back.  Is the
customer strategically related to your unit's goals?  You have no control
over the cards you have been dealt, you have to make the best of them.
What about the account manager and your boss (I presume the SWS unit mgr)?
They should be actively involved in your situation, but if not it's up
to you.

Doesn't being a delivery specialist suck? :-)!!!

/Al

    I too am a Software Specialist out in the field. 
    
    As for the reply in 496.1 which stated that  we are not supposed
    to take 'this kind of business'....well in reality, we take all
    the business we can get.  
    
    As for the original note, in Time and Material business, we frequently
    ARE just bodies which the customer has hired.  We take direction
    from them and do the best possible job with what we have been given.
    I frequently have had discussions with customers in which I strongly
    disagreed with the customer's decision.....but they are the customer
    and they are paying the bill. I believe that it is our responsibility
    to make recommendations, to document the decisions and how they
    were reached, and then work like mad to get the job done that they 
    are paying you to do.
    
    Hopefully, you will be able to add some form of sanity into the
    decision making process.  But, if the customer makes a bad decision,
    make sure you have status reports which covers yourself and Digital.
    
    Many times  (or maybe most times) decisions are based on political
    events within the company which we may not be privy to.  As a case
    in point, the residency I am currently on has about four different
    groups which are all working like crazy on projects which compete
    with each other.  No one in the groups is talking to anyone else.
    And to add another problem, the company's technology is changing
    so quickly, that most of the work will be obsolete before it is
    implemented.  I have talked with the various groups and most agree
    that YES...they do have a problem...but...politics are driving the
    work and no one is willing to step on someone else's ego and stick
    their own neck out to take a look at the BIG PICTURE.  Digital has
    had a resident in this slot for going on five years now and the
    main reason we are in this account is because of internal politics
    within the company.
    
    Oh well, enough rambling, and remember...as long as we have Software
    and Sales Unit Managers (and higher) whose performace is partially
    if not wholly gauged on revenue generated by you out in the field,
    no job will be turned down...besides once you get on the account,
    maybe you can straighten it out.
    
    Pat Williams

I think you'll like this one, although this was a Sales Support 'gotcha'...

1)  Customer's system manager asks for VMS installation guide for 8530.

2)  I misunderstand, bring him Guide to VAX/VMS Software Installation.

3)  He points out error of my ways. Comes out he wants CPU-specific
    installation guide (part of H-kit - I'm new, so who knew?).

4)  I say "Gee, I don't think we have any. Let me go look."

5)  Ask around office. Ask boss, who says to ask FS.

6)  FS has one copy, which is not for loan. I direct person going to meeting
    with system manager to say "no can do."

7)  System manager calls his boss.

8)  Boss calls account manager, who delegates callback to me.

9)  I call boss. Explain:

	a) manual not easily obtainable

	b) they're getting an H-kit with delivery

	c) by the time we ordered an extra H-kit, the one already ordered
	   would be in

	d) they're not doing the install; they have an SSP III!

10) Boss says "Not acceptable answer. I can't believe you can't find a spare
    in a company Digital's size..."

11) I say I will make a good faith effort to try to find one. Hang up, go to
    talk to account rep.

12) As I get to account rep's desk, phone rings. It's the boss. Same 
    conversation.

It ends up the account rep, in a former assignment, had sold an 8500 to another
company, who was willing to loan us the manual.

But, can you believe we had to go through all that to get a manual the customer
did not need at the time?

Eric 8^( 

P.S. The Customer isn't always right; the customer is frequently a pain! 

    Hi Greg, I was wondering where you'd gotten off to.
    
    One of the problems is that I don't think there's a sws um within
    the company who would turn down revenue.  But we've always got to
    be thinking about the future business possibilities, and by knowingly
    doing the "wrong" thing for a customer application, our chances
    of future business, even though we do get the revenue *this* time,
    are slim to none for the next time.
    
    A couple of suggestions:
    
    1.  Get another sws type in there with you to get another opinion
    as to whether the customer's implementation plan is really a half
    bubble off center.

    2.  DOCUMENT THIS VIA MAIL to your manager!
    
    3.  Assuming all is still not kosher, get the sales rep involved.
    Have a meeting with the swum & the sales rep & the customer to try
    to explain very diplomatically why his ideas aren't the best solution
    to his own problem.
    
    If handled correctly, I would think that the customer would have
    much more respect for Digital by trying to avoid letting the customer
    shoot himself in the foot.
    
    Good luck
    Jon

    re: "I can't belive you can't find a spare in a company Digital's
    size"
    
    I can believe it.
    
    Does "Boss" have any useful spare anythings lying around like a
    VAXstation 2000 or a complete 24 volume VMS 4.7 Documentation Set?
    
    Groups and this is especially true of field groups have to:
    	Accept _only_ the tasks for they are prepared.
    	Prepare for _all_ the tasks that they can be assigned.
    
    "I've always depended on the kindness of strangers" is a funny way
    to run a business.

    re .5
    
    > Accept only the tasks for which they are prepared
    
    Maybe things have changed since I was in sws, but that was never
    ever not-in-a-million-years ever the case.  You were assigned a
    task, very conceivably using products that you had never heard of,
    let alone being familiar with to any extent whatsoever, and if you
    "weren't prepared", you had basically two choices:
    
    1.  Do it anyway & hope for the best.
    2.  Hit the road.

    Jon

    Digital SWS is currently a body shop (at least in our District), and
    very little else.  Most of our customers come to DEC because most
    self-respecting consultants won't settle for the grunt type work that
    we end up doing (it takes big bucks to find computer-literate people
    'willing' to do grunt work).
    
    That is why there is a BIG move in SWS to get into fixed price
    contracts.   Training programs called "project member", committees
    on project methodology, PM software on VAXstations - these are just
    some of the signs of where we're headed.  Digital seems to be waking
    up to what companies like EDS have know all along - FPPs are where
    the big bucks, the glory, and the LONG term solution selling is
    to be found.
    
    This only means that we are in for a LOT of trouble.  Its REAL tough
    to prove non-performance if 10 specialists have shown up EVERY day
    for six months, and have piles of source code to show for their
    visit.
    
    On the other hand, when one has a signed RFP, proposal, workstatement,
    functional specification and acceptance test plan in one hand, and
    a system that doesn't do what the pieces of paper say it should,
    you have grounds for legal action.
    
    T&M stinks!  When you are nothing but a body, you have no clout,
    no power, no say.  You have to watch the customer screw him/herself,
    and it is not fun.  But (and I KNOW this is NO consolation), you
    should be glad you aren't in an FPP that is missing its deadlines
    because the people who sold the "PROJECT" normally make living selling
    little boxes with flashing lights and don't know the FIRST thing
    about selling a project.
      
    -Anonymous :-)
    

    We had a bad customer here, who got worse. Suffice it to say that
    cases of bad decision making, argumentativness, and flat out 
    abusiveness existed, were witnessed and documented. Note I'm not
    talking about isolated incidents, but consistent behaviour over
    a period of years and several seperate projects. Every single
    specialist who had ever worked for him basically refused to go back.
    
    When a request came in for an extension of the latest contract, 
    at the same time project members were making it known to local
    management that they would seek employment elsewhere, after much
    battling amongst sales and sws, the PO was turned down.

    re .-1
    
    I lead a fixed price project before this situation I'm in from .0.
    
    True to form, the Sales Rep who sold the fixed price project went to an
    all expense paid "business meeting" in Hong Kong, then left DEC.  The
    person who wrote the proposal became self-employeed soon afterwords,
    and the SWS Unit manager who was in on the sales cycle has also since
    left DEC.  The project lasted 2 1/2 years (should have taken about 1
    1/2 years), but, surprisingly, turned out well.  Customer is happy, our
    software does everything we said it would do - and - more importantly,
    does everything the contract says it should do.  Lots of pain along the
    way, though. 
    
    Turns out, the place where I'm stuck now needs software designed
    almost EXACTLY the same as the fixed price project above.  We've
    told them about it, and offered to modify what we already have,
    but this is a big-blue COBOL shop and our stuff is in FORTRAN - no 
    dice.  
    
    So I've spent the last month writing pseudo-code and stupid little
    COBOL programs to learn all over again how to do SYS$TRNLNM, SYS$QIO,
    and AST's and other such stuff.  (It's really not BAD, once you
    get the hang of it, just stupid.)
    
    The idea is, once they approve all the pseudo code (to date, there's
    about 260 blocks of it), then, after about 800 review meetings to make
    sure all the I's are dotted and T's crossed, they'll write all the REAL
    COBOL code.  Imagine real-time, asynchronous DECNET I/O using COBOL.  
    
    And, maybe sometime before 1990, they'll get working what we ALREADY
    built a year ago.  (They want to get this system and a bunch of
    other systems - not yet defined - FINISHED by July, 1988.)
    
    Yes, I'm frustrated, but NOTES is good therapy.

    re, about don't argue with 'em, go off and do it such that it works
    and then give it to 'em - I tried that and nearly got booted outta
    there myself.  It turns out that GOTO's are taboo at this place,
    and they REALLY enforce it.  Of course, my stuff had gotos and I
    caught h***.
    
    Document, you say??  I STRONGLY agree - that should be rule #1 for
    ANYBODY in a customer situation.  At minimum, other DEC people need
    to know what's going on at the customer site.  And, as we all well
    know, it's good CYA when the customer's project fails and they try
    to blame the DEC guy onsite.
    
    I used to think that T&M stuff was good for pure cash, low risk
    business, and that residencies were good things.  That was in the 
    days when somebody ELSE did the residency.  I don't think so 
    anymore.

    So how do we build a reputation such that we don't have to put up
    with this crap?   When IBM goes onsite, are they body shops?  How
    about EDS - what do they do?
    
    - Greg Scott

    Woops - the ".-1" in .9, really meant ".7".  .8 came in while I
    was typing.  Glad to know I'm not the only crazy person looking
    at NOTES in the middle of the night.

    - Greg Scott

    Greg......Your not alone.
    
    	This is a situation that cannot be avoided in a tech. type
    buisness. If the customer has a DECdirect this makes him an expert.
    	I am a Network designer/ computer room designer. The customer
    knows exactly what he/she wants. What he/she wants is DEC to bless
    his design and take the rap if it fails. This is when we put on
    another hat. I explain that DEC does not recognize this type of
    design and cannot support it. You must explain to the customer that
    his design or idea is a good and well thought-out plan (stroke him)
    then explain the drawbacks. It may help to take a senior person
    with you, and introduce him/her as "THE EXPERT" on the subject.
    
    	RESET THE CUSTOMER's EXPECTATIONS early in the game....
    
    Then smile and thank him for his dilligent efforts. 

	re: .0

	Greg,

	After being in similar situations myself you certainly have my
	sympathy.  What really disturbs me about your situation (and
	some of the ones I've been around/in) is that I believe that
	it should NOT be up to you or any Software Specialist to handle 
	these situations alone.  This is a management issue and should
	be handled by management.  Getting involved after the sh*it
	has hit the fan is often too late.

	On-site specialists are often expected to handle management
	issues with the customer.  Sometimes this works, often it
	doesn't. The reason is that an SWS specialist's relationship to
	the line manager at a customer site will not be the same as
	his/her U.M.'s would be.  He/she will typically be viewed as a
	sobordinate (grouped with the other "tech. types" in the organization).
	Therefore, not being "privy" to some of the information that the
	U.M. would be if a relationship existed at that level. 

	One area I beleive Digital often fails at (and have been told so
	by a V.P. at one of my customer sites) is building these management
	relations.  If this were IBM (glad it's not), your U.M. would be
	expected to have a relationship built with his peer at the
	customer site and for an important account the D.M. would have a
	relationship built with his peer and so on.  Not neccesarily social
	relationship, but a management-to-management business relationship.  

	A lot of Customer Satisfaction problems (which is what your
	situation really is), could be PREVENTED if these management
	level relationships were built with our customers.

    
    
    	re: .7
    
    	I agree with you 100%.  Give me a mismanaged Time and Materials
    	assignment over a mismanaged/mis-spec'd fixed price project
    	any day! 
    

    re .9
    
    Greg,
    
    Regarding "EDS" project methodology, I am not speaking first hand, but
    second hand, based on continual speeches from my PM who used to work
    for EDS.  DEC preaches a very similar methodology, but EDS lives
    it. 
    
    The MOST important thing in any business arrangement is to get the
    paperwork straight UP FRONT.  RFPs, proposals, functional specs, are
    really only the tip of the iceberg - the pieces that we trench-mates
    know about.  Each of these pieces of paper has a very specific purpose,
    and cannot be casually written.  For more information on this, it is
    vital to attend one of our internal classes on Project Methodology.  The
    class doesn't really teach project methodology, but it does tell you
    what the pieces of paper are that DEC uses to keep itself afloat,
    why they are important, who has responsibility, and how they should
    be written.
    
    The other thing the PM class teaches is that there has to be a project
    manager "from cradle to grave".  It is ridiculous to try to let
    the sales rep manage an account for which a project is being performed,
    but this frequently happens.  Even the SWUM isn't going to be able
    to perform a fraction of the customer contact necessary.
    
    A twist that DEC has added to project methodology is to have a project
    manager AND a project leader - regardless of size.  The purpose
    is to isolate the project implementors from the customer.  It sounds
    like this would be one of the most helpful things to have in a touchy
    customer situation.  Of course, DEC preaches this, but I understand
    its pretty rare - our project seems to be one of the first.
    
    I think there are some other informal requirements - EDS seems to
    use SWAT teams.  When they go in, they have people trained for the
    task they are going to perform, not just in the tools, but in the
    applications.  Of course, EDS has particular products that they
    are invested in, like insurance actuarial programs that are big
    and can justify training people in.  DECs scope is somewhat larger
    and more difficult to staff/train for.
    
    At any rate, the best way to find out "the best way" to do things,
    is to take the internal Project Methodology course.  However, unless
    your manager and maybe the presales and sales folks associated with
    the account have taken it as well, you will only find it frustrating,
    because you will know what SHOULD be done, and not be able to make
    sure that it all happens.
    
    Its frustrating to see a project go sour.  Its even worse to know
    exactly why and how it could be prevented, and not be in a position
    where you can do anything about it.
    
    Jim
    

    re .14
    
    Agreed - it IS frustrating to see a project go sour, especially
    when you're watching it go sour from the very start and can't do 
    anything about it.
    
    But my question does not concern a DEC managed project - on a DEC
    managed project, at least on a GREG managed project, the customer
    says WHAT they want, but it's OUR responsibility to figure out HOW
    to deliver it.
    
    My situation is a CUSTOMER managed effort.  The CUSTOMER is in 
    charge and responsible for the whole thing.  And I've already screwed
    up this situation by shooting off my big mouth too much, and Sales
    and SWS management are cleaning up MY mess.

    I'll handle MY situation, I'm confused about the big picture.

    I heard Chic Shue or Bill Ferry, or one of the other bigwigs, tell
    us on videotape that one of the things that makes DEC "better" is
    that we can do "in field engineering".
    
    I've also been told that in order to make it in the marketplace, we (DEC)
    must go onsite and do what the customer wants, the WAY the customer
    wants it done - the customer is ALWAYS right.

    And I've been told that there just isn't much of a market for DEC managed
    projects, and that our methods aren't necessarily the best.  Our
    customers got along without us for a long time, and they'll continue
    to do just fine without our help.

    Comments???
    
    - Greg Scott

When a customer is taking aim at their foot, all you can do is hand them
the letter that says..."You shouldn't pull that trigger, Mr. Customer,
but if you're going to, please re-aim!"  Then duck!

	Here's a tidbit from Usenet.

	Regards, Robert.


From:	misc.legal
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	A Question of Corporate Ethics

Posted by: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!clyde!watmath!utgpu!utzoo!yunexus!geac!david
Organization: GEAC Computers, Toronto, CANADA
Posted: Wed Dec 30 15:56:51 1987
 
Here's a little something we have been hitting our heads against
over the holiday season:
 
We have been dealing with an abrasive individual at a large
computer company, which we will call `EFD'. He has taken upon
himself to be totally abusive to our personnel, and when asked
for the name of his superior, refuses to give it to one of our
vice-presidents.
 
Question: 
 
	Do any companies out there have corporate policies
	for this kind of thing?
 
	In the Canadian civil service, not providing the name
	of your superior is grounds for strong disiplanary action
	or dismissal [1]. Do any corporations have a policy this strong?
 
	Do you think they should have? (We know one company we
	wish did have.)
 
	Does anyone have some suggestions for dealing with
	this individual or gaining access to others at `EFD'?
 
BTW:	This company is definitely U.S. based.
 
	Other people at EFD have been quite professional in
	previous dealings with the company.
	(Maybe the good ones are all on holiday ;-) ).
 
[1]	Actually, you have to refuse to give both your name
	and the name of your superior to be dismissed.
-- 
David Haynes
Geac Computers International Inc. 
UUCP:	{mnetor|yetti|utgpu}!geac!david

re:  "EFD"

If you replace the letters "EFD" with the ones immediately preceding them
in the alphabet, you get "DEC". 

If this really is us, there is one superior that everyone know about.  I
suspect if Ken's office got a call describing this situation, and upon
investigation, found that it was substantially true, that particular person
would not be again calling on that particular customer.

I would also suspect that a call to the president's office would get the 
desired action no matter what company was involved.

Ray

        This doesn't surprise me.  I've had it happen to me!  I just
        hung up, called a different support group and have them transfer
        me back to another person.
        
        Another situation occurred when a customer with a valid support
        ID called for support before the hardware was registered. 
        This person was treated like someone trying to illegally get
        services.
        
        I'd say "we" need some education in dealing with customers
        POLITELY (even when the answer is NO).  (See my previous replies
        about Sales Reps not calling back potential customers just
        for (potential) customer relations sake.  Oh, that's right,
        THAT soapbox with in the Marketing conference.
        
       _Mike

re .19:
>Another situation occurred when a customer with a valid support
>ID called for support before the hardware was registered. 
>This person was treated like someone trying to illegally get
>services.

I trust this was escalated?  The training our CRG (Customer Response Group)
gets is supposed to include how to handle this type of situation (and there are
"legitimate" illegals out there too), but I can see a scenario where a customer
who has signed his check for support could be PO'd because registration hadn't
caught up...and registration is supposed to be as fast as the local office can
communicate it.