Conference 7.286::digital

        I think you might find that Albert Cuschieri, in Sydney,
        Australia, has been at it longer than you. Albert has won several
        Decathalons and Dec-100's.
        
        q
        

    Not being in sales, what EXACTLY is a "DECathalon"? (along with
    the rest of the awards...)
    
    B.
    

    DECathalon is a trip to (usually) some very exotic place. Digital
    flys the salesperson and their significant other there for a week
    of fun and sight seeing - all expenses paid.  The absolute best
    of best as far as hotels, meals, activities, etc....In 1985 DEC
    flew me and my wife to Hong Kong for a fantastic week - the keynote
    address was by a senior vice president of DEC who (I'll *never*
    forget this) said that this was the only job that he ever had
    where he was told to get on a plane in Boston, fly to Hong Kong
    and tell 400 salespeople and their spouse, who were also flown there
    all expenses paid, that DEC has got to cut expenses!!!!

    J. Beeler

    Charlie Wyckoff in the Miami, Florida office has been selling for
    Digital for about 20 years.  He did take a few years 'off' to be
    a sales unit manager so you might beat him if you want to count
    that as time off.  He opened the state of Florida and most of the
    long time customers in the state.

    Yours is still a major accomplishment, of course.
    
    Keep the faith(s),
    
    Don

	Gene Wollschlager in Atlanta may also be nearing the 20 year mark of 
active selling.

	George (Jorge!) Cebollero in Fort Lauderdale is also a long-timer, but 
I'm not sure about it all being in Sales.

    John Roberts (ex of Tucson, now in Austin, if I've done my detective
    work properly) has been at it for longer.

    re .3:
    
    It certainly is nice of DEC to give that kind of award to one
    department.Does anyone know of anything comparable in the way of
    incentive,given to any other part of the company?
    
    BTW: don't you have to pay taxes on the fair market value of such
    awards or does DEC pay those too?

>    It certainly is nice of DEC to give that kind of award to one
>    department.Does anyone know of anything comparable in the way of
>    incentive,given to any other part of the company?
    
 I'd like to 'second' that questions.

Products don't magically pop out of little shutes.  In Digital we have hardware
developers, software developers, manufacturing personnel, order management 
people, field service techs....the list goes on.  EACH ONE OF THESE PEOPLE
CONTRIBUTES TO THE QUALITY OF THE END PRODUCT AND CUSTOMER SATISFACTION .  
Without the dedication of each of us, all the selling expertise in the world
couldn't move diddly.

When I hear of one segment of our 'population' being showered with trips and
awards while the rest of us tighten our belts, my blood boils.

Betty

    *Flame on!*
    
    RE: 485.8:  YOUR blood boils?  Not only are select groups (Sales,
    Software Services, Field Service, etc.) the only ones eligible for
    specific awards, but there is ONE group of people who are NEVER 
    eligible:  Specifically, the secretaries!  I don't know of any
    program to grant proper recognition to the secretaries who keep
    this company moving smoothly.  Certainly the 4% or 5% average
    pay increase isn't a motivator!
    
    The software services' excellence awards have specific eligibility
    guidelines for WC4 and WC3; the WC3s are broken down to job code in
    order to eliminate the clerical codes (i.e., exec. sec.) -- all
    other WC3 job codes are eligible!
    
    Growl!
    
    *Flame off*

RE .9    Let's be a little realistic.
     
    When was the last time you heard of a secretary being called up by
    a head-hunter and offered $10K-50K more then DEC pays to jump ship?
                                                                       
    This is a competitive world we live in.  DEC is the best in treating
    people fairly.  I think DEC does more for secretary's then any other
    company I know of.  If you would like to benefit from these trips and 
    other incentives, move into one of those positions that offer them.  
    Don't be a naysayer-don't citicize DEC who is the only major marketing
    company that doesn't offer an incentive based compensation plan - and 
    has made it work.
    
    It makes by blood boil to hear someone criticize someone else's
    compensation plan.  If you like theirs so much, go do the job as
    well as they do it and also receive the benefits.  Not everyone
    wants to be in Sales, or Sales Support.  But remember, nothing happens
    in this company until something is sold.
    
    I value everyone's contribution to my well being in this company.
     I thank God we all have this wonderful opportunity to be a part
    of this great experiment.  Thanks for being such a good secretary,
    it makes my job in Sales that much easier.
    
    Kevin Ryan @MTO
                                
    This is a great company who listens to positive, proactive, business
    improving employees.  Griping about who gets what like my six-year
    olds will fall on deaf ears.

In SEG, we value our secretaries as much as anyone else, and thus they 
are eligible for (and often receive) the same dinners and bonuses as 
us engineer-types do.  Sometimes I think we're more replaceable than 
them.

    re:.10
       Great attitude! How could we EVER live without you? Everyone
    has a job to do. If it weren't for design and manufacturing you'd
    have NOTHING to sell would you. If it weren't for the secretaries
    that organize all this stuff we'd all be lost. Get off your high
    horse and look around.
                                                      Denny

    re: .10
    
    Interesting that you should refer to Digital as a "marketing
    company".
    
    I value everyone in this company, too, but let's provide
    a couple of examples to try to put things in perspective.
    
    Company A is just starting up, with all engineers.  After
    designing a product, the head of the company comes down
    and says, "I'd like one of you engineers to go out and
    sell this product."
    
    Company B is just starting up, with all sales/marketing people.
    After determining the kind of product they'd like to sell, the
    head of the company comes down and says "I'd like one of you
    salesmen to go design this product."
    
    
    Now I know this is an extreme oversimplification of the
    situation, and will inflame many, but in the way of education
    and "valuing differences", you should be aware that this is what
    *many* engineers (and others) think when hearing about "goodies"
    for the sales force and others who deal with customers directly.
    If I had a dollar for every time I heard variations on this
    scenario from engineers and others, I could retire and give
    *myself* special trips and prizes.
    
    I'm inclined to value everyone's contribution.  It distresses
    and saddens me to hear one group saying they're more important
    to the company than another group.  In my experience over the
    years, the group that seems to proclaim this most loudly and
    frequently are the sales/marketing groups.  These groups most
    certainly do provide a critical contribution, but no more so
    than any other group, and some of the replies here have been
    asking why shouldn't the other groups get bennies too?  I don't
    think anyone would take yours away, it's just that the others
    would like some recognition too.  Otherwise we get the feeling
    that maybe DEC (which is of course an honorable company that
    treats all of its orgs equally well) doesn't value every group's
    contributions equally.  Things like this tend to demoralize
    others to the extent that they nullify their original intent
    of motivating the recipient groups.
    
    Chris

    RE: .13
     (and others)
    
    Everyone is compensated in a different way, and DEC(along with others)
    makes a business decision on how this will be disbursed.  Sales
    people (in general) are a differnt breed when it comes to pay. 
    Most of them want some form of commission.  I've never seen an engineer
    who has asked for a percentage of the profits from his design, although
    the concept could be worked.  (like people who design things and
    then sell them for a percentage to a big marketing company)
    
    The bonuses that Sales receives is just another example of the
    differneces in the compensation.  Why does everyone think that they
    need to be the same?  
    
    I've said this before, both here and in SOAPBOX.  Digital doesn't
    OWE you a damned thing cept for the paycheck covering last weeks
    work.  If you think you are unfairly compensated, take it up with
    your manager.  If you don't get satisfaction there and still believe
    you are right, you are free to find another job.  Noone is hold
    ing a gun to your head saying that you must be an engineer, or a
    sales person.  Chose your own job!
    
    -bill

    re: .14
    
    > The bonuses that Sales receives is just another example of the
    > differneces in the compensation.  Why does everyone think that they
    > need to be the same?
    
    Because that might be more fair to everyone; because it might
    make me feel that every group's contribution is equally regarded
    and valued by Digital.  Why would that be wrong?  By saying that
    this is just another example of the differences in the compensation,
    it sounds like "they're different because they're different".
    I don't understand why they're different in the first place.
    Does my group (and other groups) get something else in some
    other area that the sales and field groups don't currently get?
    Why should one group get more than another group?  Because they're
    a different breed?  Why can't Digital reward all of its groups
    in an equitable way, as a motivational device?

        
    > I've said this before, both here and in SOAPBOX.  Digital doesn't
    > OWE you a damned thing cept for the paycheck covering last weeks
    > work.  If you think you are unfairly compensated, take it up with
    > your manager.  If you don't get satisfaction there and still believe
    > you are right, you are free to find another job.  Noone is hold
    > ing a gun to your head saying that you must be an engineer, or a
    > sales person.  Chose your own job!
    
    My previous reply did not imply that Digital owes us anything,
    and you're quite right, they don't owe us anything.  I believe
    that performance would improve if they were to give us "something"
    up front, with the intent of reaping greater rewards as a result.
    I proposed that it would benefit employee motivation, morale,
    and productivity if other organizations were to take advantage
    of some of the benefits currently being offered only to some
    of the groups within Digital.  I also propose that it is somewhat
    demotivating to learn that some groups seem to be more valued
    by Digital than others, and many of the replies here would tend
    to support this claim.  One should not have to leave their current
    field (e.g., engineering, sales, secretarial, etc.) in which
    they can be most effective and productive for the company,
    in the pursuit of adequate and equitable consideration.
    "Love it or leave it" is not a very progressive solution
    to compensation and performance issues within Digital.
    
    Chris

    Re:
    
>   "Love it or leave it" is not a very progressive solution
>    to compensation and performance issues within Digital
    
    What's wrong with that? That's the way the world works:
    
    	o Digital isn't a democracy.
    	o Digital's prime responsibility is to its shareholders. They
    	  OWN the company, not the employees.
        o If Digital needs to give bennies to its salesforce to keep
    	  them but doesn't to its engineers then it would be irresponsible
    	  of it to give bennies to engineers.
    	o No employee is FORCED to work for Digital. If an employee
    	  doesn't like his current position it is his prerogative to
    	  find another position or leave the company.
    
    As I see it it is all a game. An employer pays/gives benefits to
    an employee to maximize its return on investment. An employee
    attempts to get maximum satisfaction from his job (included
    in satisfaction is monetary compensation). Wage levels and
    benefits are set by market forces that balance one side off against
    the other.
    
    Dave
    
    
    
    	                                                           0

    As I once heard it explained to me, sales and service groups get large
    travel budgets and small hardware budges, while engineering groups get
    large hardware budgets and small travel budgets.  And I know people in
    SWS who would gladly give up their bonus trips in exchange for a
    VAXstation on their desks.
    
    Of course, that's not a strictly fair comparison, but it does point
    out that different people are motivated by different things, and
    that DEC has to choose appropriate forms of compensation, at a
    relatively coarse level.  I can't imagine them asking people in
    a group "How do you want your bonus, as a GPX upgrade or a trip
    to Florida?"
    
    Would it be fairer if DEC simply gave those bonuses in the form
    of salary increases?  I don't think so.
    
    I do, however, believe that increasing the budgets for release parties
    (or similar activities) would pay off in terms of motivating
    engineering groups.
    
       Gary

>    I do, however, believe that increasing the budgets for release parties
>   (or similar activities) would pay off in terms of motivating
>   engineering groups.

    I wonder if this would really work.  Its a nice gesture and I wouldn't
    want it to stop, but I really doubt that a "release party" has any
    significant bearing on employee motivation.  Its only one day, after
    all.  Besides, suppose this was increased to a full day (or weekend)
    field trip, and then suppose that a group didn't make its ship date
    for reasons beyond their control (slipped by, lets say, a month).
    What happens to morale when the party is cancelled -- or do you still
    give it when the product finally does get out the door?  That wouldn't
    be fair to the groups that slaved and made their targetted ship
    date.
    
    As for sales getting more financial renumeration that some of the
    other groups, I wouldn't begrudge them too much.  Sales is one of
    the most difficult jobs around and its hard to find good people
    and to keep them.

    Viewed as *groups*, Salespeople, Engineers, Secretaries, etc. each
    tend to attract similar types of people; however, when viewed as
    *individuals*, each Digital employee has his/her own set of needs,
    motivitations, and desires.  Therefore, broad-based compensation
    (salaries, bonus plans, etc) are targetted at the "typical" member
    of the group, but it is up to individual managers to tailor particular
    recognitions/motivators to the individual people who would receive
    those.  
    
    A good manager will treat each person as an individual; a less
    effective manager will treat everyone alike.  If you are not getting
    what you need, talk to your manager (then his/her manager...)
    
    Bruce

   RE:

>Note 485.14               Longest Reining Salesperson?                 14 of 18
    
>    Sales people (in general) are a different breed when it comes to pay. 
  
      Even Jimmy the Greek wishes he'd thought of something other to talk
      of than 'breeding.'  

      Salesmen need to sell their positive contribution to the company
      to non-sales types, as well as they sell the company's products.

      Then again, maybe they do.


                         *************
  RE:

Note 485.16               Longest Reining Salesperson?                  16 of 18
                     -< What's wrong with market forces? >-
>    Re:
>   "Love it or leave it" is not a very progressive solution
>    to compensation and performance issues within Digital
    
>>    What's wrong with that? That's the way the world works:

>>    As I see it it is all a game. 


      Herein lies a fundamental difference.  Some folks see games as 
      games, but view the workings of the world as 'life' apart from a 
      game.  Some argue that constitutional republics are one result of 
      people attempting to make things better without the necessity of 
      voting with their feet.  Ethically responsible firms encourage 
      promotion of new processes, and to insure stability, invoke a 
      structure of review and discussion to insure an orderly transition 
      to a better way of doing business.  It seems like Digital USA is 
      such a company, in such a country.  

      I live and work in such an environment.

      My environment is such that I respect your right to hold the view
      that life is a game, and that, in this part of the game, one can love 
      it or leave it.  

      My observations of my environment tell me, however, that there are
      many other fruitful choices to be made.  

    One thing that no one has brought up is the competitive angle.
    DEC tries to over competitive compensation to its employees.
    This means that DEC studies what other companies in similar
    businesses do to compensate employees doing similar work. How
    well they do this is,of course, open to some interpretation but
    suffice it to say that most all computer companies offer their
    top salespeople and sometimes (but not always) sales support
    people bonus trips. Also some of the other goodies that some
    people in the field get. 
    
    I don't know of anyone who sends secretaries on these trips. Likewise,
    few engineers of other companies get sent on fun business trips
    as the salespeople can get. At least at DEC some engineers get to
    go to DECUS but that's work as well as fun.
    
    DEC tries to compensate people for the job they do. Sure we'd all
    like more money, less work and pleasure trips but reality has to
    drop in somewhere. You have to ask what you want in the way of
    compensation. If it matches what DEC is offering for the job you
    want you're in luck. If it isn't a match then look at what jobs
    are getting that compensation and work for it. I'd love to get
    KO's compensation, we're both engineers right, but it would be
    rather silly to demand it on the grounds that it would be fair.
    I know that I've got to work for it. The same is true of trips
    or other bennies. You don't get them just by saying "But so and
    so gets it!" You get them by doing the job that is compensated in
    that way at that level.
    
    					Alfred

A salesperson's most visible� contribution to the Company is very easy to
quantify:  How many dollars of revenue did he or she handle�?
Thus a salesperson's compensation is very easy to design:  A cut of
that dollar volume.
By extension, it's easy to identify the "best" salesperson.
So bonuses and bennies are a natural outgrowth of sales compensation.

                      �Not most important or most long lasting, most visible.
                      �Not generate or produce, since we all contribute to the
                       salability of the product - products in some measure, 
                       should sell themselves.

For those of us farther from the end of the revenue stream, it is harder 
to compute our impact on that stream. Thus our compensation is more subjective.
There are plans in place to reward "obvious" outstanding contributions,
as by stock option plans and real bonuses, but what are easily recognized
criteria for such rewards?  "Most designs completed?" "Most number of trips
to petty cash?" "Best structured code?"

The principle of fairness is that all contributors get a slice of the profits
in proportion to their contribution to the end.  Salaried people sacrifice
some of this profit by having accepted a guaranteed return on their efforts,
so only exceptional performers get exceptional shares of profit.
Still, there should be methods in place to reward people back in the revenue
stream more visibly. and yes, more generously for identifiable excellence.

- tom powers]

PS: Will somebody please fix the spelling in the note title? (Or is it 
supposed to be a pun?)

    All of you are making valid points.  And don't get me wrong, I enjoy
    working in this company, I think its policies towards its people
    are unique.  And I also realize that the topic I'm bringing up (and
    which others have discussed) is beyond the norm for the industry.
    
    In 485.21; however, it was pointed out that "You don't get them
    [bennies] just by saying 'But so and so gets it!'".  I agree!  I
    don't think people should get bennies just 'cause someone else gets
    them.  BUT I do think that everyone should be ELIGIBLE to receive
    them!  By selecting specific job codes of people who are eligible,
    it is ignoring the hard work performed by others in the company.
    
    I have a little plaque on my desk that was given to me (and a number
    of others) as a result of some hard work we did for an announcement.
    On that plaque it states:  "ONE COMPANY, ONE STRATEGY, ONE MESSAGE,
    ONE ARCHITECTURE".  That's us:  One company.  We ALL work towards
    our mutual goal to further this company's profits.  We should all
    be equally as eligible for recognition for our hard work.
    

    

       Why should ANY group be rewarded more than any other for
    'doing their job'? They get paid to sell, if they sell, fine,
    that's their job. If they don't sell, they're out the door. 
    Just like anyone else.
                                                    denny

    485.21 is a response to 485.24.  This note is getting repetitive
    and SOAPBOX-ish.

  Maybe what we need is a good, basic, profit-sharing plan (aside 
  from the DEC Employee Stock Purchase Plan and the various stock
  options -- those are both obviously too affected by the whims of
  outsiders to be a real alternative).

                                   Atlant

Well, I entered the base note, got a few answers, then left it - only
to return and find that the subject has taken a tangent. A well deserved
tangent.

This perceived inequity in compensation for sales was addressed in 
a FIELD_SERVICE conference about a year ago.  However, the sparing
was between two well defined organizations in DEC - Sales and Field
Service.  I'm glad to have a chance to address this with a wider
audience, but, am at somewhat of a loss since I really don't know
what organizations are addressing this issue.

I'm not sure what I can add to what has already been said.  I will give
you *my* perspective, and make sure you understand that - you'll find
that there is a mentality in me that is distinctly different from a
lot of other sales people.  Also, you'll get at least one salespersons
perspective.

The closer the organizations are to me, the better I can identify their
relative contribution to my success.  For example, 485.9, SPGOGO::LEBLANC,
was really close to home!  I have the best secretary in DEC - bar none!
I would be damned hard pressed to get 1/2 of the work done without my
secretary. There is no question about it!  When salary review time comes
up I simply give her the maximum that I can - period.  But, that's
the best that I can do.  When DEC-100 comes up I would give my right
arm if she could go to the resort or boat cruise or whatever, but, 
she is not invited, and I personally think that is criminal.

The next organization that is close to me is the field service organization.
Again, there is no question but that they contribute significantly to my
success.  Without the guys in this office I would have to work about 50%
harder.  But, what can I do for them?  NOTHING!  When an engineer does
an outstanding job, above and beyond, I write his manager a letter explaining
why this individual should be recognized for "above and beyond" performance.

Once I had the corporate jet come to Lubbock to pick up some VPs and
fly them to Houston for a demo.  I asked the field service tech, the guy
that carries a tool kit, to escort the VPs, on the jet, to Houston since
I would be going ahead for preparations.  Also, I asked that the tech
be present during the entire day of presentations and non-disclosures
so that he would be aware and be an integral part of the future of the
customer  - he knows that he is an integral and necessary part of the
entire process of selling and not just a pawn that goes and fixes some-
thing when it's broken. (By the way, we made the sale $1M).  I work
*with* them and they work *with* me, and I do my best to let them know
that they are part of a team out here.

By the same token, when I want to sell something that I'm not *very*
familiar with - I *always* approach the local service techs before I
go bouncing off to sell something.

As a result of the above referenced $1M sale, my wife and I were flown
to Miami, and we took a 4 day cruise to the Bahamas - all at DECs expense.
The field service people had to share cares to go spend the night at
a lake somewhere in the Dallas area - now, I'm sure that they enjoyed
it, but, I wish to Hell I could have shown them the same luxury that
I was afforded - what could I do? NOTHING!

{Oh, and before I forget it - yes, when an engineer really goes above
and beyond I put it in writing to his manager - when he screws up -
I do the same - a letter to his manager.}

Now, outside of those organizations which I have day-to-day contact
with it's harder for me to measure their relative contribution - I'm
sure that it's there - I think - but - I can't "see" it.  I can do very
little for the people that I have this day-to-day contact with, much
less those that I don't have day-to-day contact with.

However, READ MY LIPS, you tell me the answers, tell me what to do,
and I'll do it!  BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THIS "INEQUITY" IS JUST AS PAINFUL
TO ME AS IT IS TO SOME OTHER PEOPLE IN OTHER ORGANIZATIONS !!!

Now, let's get to some specific comments that preceded this:

NOTE 485.15 CADSE::RALTO : "..Why can't Digital reward all of its groups
                           in an equitable way, as a motivational device?"

Ok, Chris - *how* does DEC do it?  What can I do to foster the implementation
of such a plan?

Now, you nearly cause me to SET TERMINAL/MODE=FLAME with what you said
further on in your note - I don't like taking things out of context, but
couldn't help but notice "...if they were to give us 'something'...".
Give, HELL!  I'm not going to "give" you anything, every organization in
this company is going to E-A-R-N its rewards - I don't care if that "reward"
is simply having your job for another year.  Nope, I don't go for this "give"
philosophy at all.

Further  "..I also propose that it is somewhat demotivating to learn that
some groups seem to be more valued by Digital than others..."  Well, you're
darned sure correct - it is demotivating!!!  Do you think that I *enjoyed*
getting on that plane with my wife and flying to Honk Kong for a week of
living in the lap of luxury while the field service people who were integral
in helping me stayed here in West Texas!!! Not by a long shot!!  I didn't
like it one single bit !!  Again, I ask, just what can I do to change all
this?  What can you do?  What can we all do?  I don't know, but I'm looking
forward to hearing everyone's answers.

Now, you get into the "love it or leave it"....

NOTE 485.16 SMAUG::GARROD says "what's wrong with that"?  Well, unfortunately
I'm gong to have to agree with Dave.  I am in sales, I am in front of different
customers every day.  As a result of this I have a unique insight into
different businesses.  I think we all agree, and all I can do is enforce it,
DEC is one Hell of a good place to work.  Sure, in the last 11 years I've
gotten so mad that I have probably quit (mind games) at least 50 times -
just got "fed up" and was ready to walk out - but - guess what, I'm still
here.  All I have to do is recognize that the grass is not greener on the
other side of the fence.  All I have to do is look at how some other companies
treat their employees (hey, there are exceptions in DEC, but poor treatment
is not the rule, it's the exception).

I've been selling for 11 years and for about 9 of those years I was absolutely
positive that DEC was paying me to have fun!  There is nothing more exciting
than to beat the living stuffings out of the competition and end up with
a happy long term DEC customer.  The last two years have not been fun - that's
why I'm leaving, maybe I've just been at it too long and I've had my chain
"yanked" one too many times.  Believe me, it hurts like hell to leave the
day-to-day selling - I'm leaving something that I dearly love, and, it's
painful, but, there is no question but I will do well, and thoroughly
enjoy my tenure (hopefully another 11 years) in Sales Training.

NOTE 485.18 HACKIN::MACKIN "..as for sales getting more financial renumer-
                           ation that some of the other groups, I wouldn't
                           begrudge them too much.  Sales is one of the most
                           difficult jobs around and it's hard to find good
                           people and to keep them..."

Well, thanks Jim, had I said that it would obviously been viewed as too
biased.  Yep folks, if you really *love* selling, as I do, it is a killer
of a job.  I'm no different than the engineer who works a solid 18 hour
day to get a job done.  Many is the night that I have a problem, or work
has just gotten out of hand, and I've spent 12 to 18 hours in this office
behind a desk.  When I came out here, there was 7 field service people,
no sales.  Well, now West Texas is about 35 people, and still one sales -
it didn't get that way by working 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM  - but - for the most
part I *loved* every minute of it.

NOTE 485.22 REGENT::POWERS "..it's easy to identify the 'best' salesperson.."
                                                         ^^^^

Hummmmm....I'm not sure that I want to go too deep into this here but, I've
always been of the considered opinion that if a salesperson sells 500%
over his/her budget that don't count for squat unless there are some 
quantifying factors molded into it.  Are these happy customers? Believe
me, there are some sales that we should *never* have made!!  It's harder
to fold these factors into the "bottom line" but I really believe that
we should try.

Last, but certainly not least,

NOTE 485.26 ATLANT::SCHMIDT "profit-sharing plan"

Well, maybe that is the answer - but - as a very wise person told me,
as we share in the profits, do we share in the loss?????

There - sorry for the length of this, but, I wanted to have my say
on this subject.

Jerry Beeler

>                                           Do you think that I *enjoyed*
>getting on that plane with my wife and flying to Honk Kong for a week of
>living in the lap of luxury while the field service people who were integral
>in helping me stayed here in West Texas!!! Not by a long shot!!  I didn't
>like it one single bit !!  
>

 
  I'll bet it was a horrible sight watching those nasty airline employees
dragging your poor protesting family aboard that plane...  I hope no one was
injured!

  ;^}

RE: Profit sharing and loss sharing:

  I gamble much more by holding DEC stock in the face of this 
  lunatic stock market.  I have faith in DEC's ability (read:
  "DEC's peoples' ability) to turn a profit, and would be willing 
  to back that up by sharing in the (theoretically possible) losses 
  as well as the profits.  Where do I sign up?

                                   Atlant

    Re: .27:  Go Get 'Em, Jerry!
    
    Your response was not overly long.  I enjoyed reading it.  I, too,
    am at a quandry about what can actually Be Done about more equality
    in the rewards system.  Last year I raised it as an issue with my 
    management in reference to the Software Services Awards exclusion
    of secretaries.  In response (either to my raising it, or a number
    of other secretaries raising it -- I'm not sure which), they "invited"
    one secretary from each department to go WORK at the awards!  When
    I was told this, I asked if they were really serious about the work
    part, and they said they were.  It's a slap in the face, if you
    ask me (which no one does). 

    Does anyone out there have any suggestions about what can be done?
    Anyone from Personnel, perhaps???
    
    

    Re: .27
    
    > Ok, Chris - *how* does DEC do it?  What can I do to foster the
    > implementation of such a plan?
    
    I wish that I were sufficiently talented in the field of personnel
    and compensation to be able to come up with an equitable solution.
    If I could, I'd come up with a great idea and get one of those big
    bonuses that DEC gives out for doing big things for the company
    outside of your assigned field :-).  But seriously, folks, just
    because I don't have an answer does not invalidate the statement
    of the problem.  I have noticed in recent years, both in this
    company and in this notes conference, a growing attitude on the
    part of many that can be summed up by "Don't 'complain' if you don't
    have a solution."  It is not only probable but indeed likely that
    someone can point out a problem without knowing the solution.
    A person can bring a problem to light in the hope that someone else
    has the skills in that area to resolve the problem.  If people are
    made to feel inhibited about presenting problems unless they also have
    the answers, very little constructive improvement will be accomplished.
    In this particular case, I'm sorry, I don't know what to do, but
    perhaps someone in the appropriate field does know.  If we can bring
    together people who have problems but no solutions, with people
    who don't know the problems but who can come up with solutions,
    we could do some good things (I should submit this to Reader's Digest).

    
    > Now, you nearly cause me to SET TERMINAL/MODE=FLAME with what you said
    > further on in your note - I don't like taking things out of context, but
    > couldn't help but notice "...if they were to give us 'something'...".
    > Give, HELL!  I'm not going to "give" you anything, every organization in
    > this company is going to E-A-R-N its rewards - I don't care if that
    > "reward" is simply having your job for another year.  Nope, I don't
    > go for this "give" philosophy at all.

    Let me reproduce the whole segment of my reply .15 in question:
    
    .15> My previous reply did not imply that Digital owes us anything,
    .15> and you're quite right, they don't owe us anything.  I believe
    .15> that performance would improve if they were to give us "something"
    .15> up front, with the intent of reaping greater rewards as a result.
    
    Given the content of the first sentence of the above extract.  I believe
    the "give" phrase was too much out of context.  Furthermore, the semantics,
    connotations, and overtones involved in the word "give" seem to
    be the problem.  When I say "give" here, I mean "transfer from one
    entity to another", not to "award" or "give as a gift".  I give
    Digital work, they give me compensation.  It's not a gift in either
    direction.  I thought that would have been clear from the first
    sentence, sorry for the misunderstanding.
    
    
    > Now, you get into the "love it or leave it"....
    
    My original reference to "love it or leave it" intended to illustrate
    what someone suggested in an earlier reply, essentially "if you
    don't like your current situation, you're free to leave" (not an exact
    quote).  This is becoming an increasingly-seen reply to problems
    and difficulties that people are experiencing in this company.
    I submit that it is more constructive to try to work for change within
    the system than to simply leave in various states of disgust.
    Furthermore, this type of reply is intimidating, tending to suppress
    discussion of problems, indirectly questions the "loyalty" of those
    persons having such problems, and is virtually content-free.
    
    
    But back to the issue at hand.  After giving this some thought,
    and paying particular attention to some of the previous replies
    that examined the issue of quantitative and qualitative evaluation
    of employees in various fields, I believe it would indeed be
    difficult to objectively reward some types of employees, for
    example, engineers.  In fact, a small program involving cash
    awards and your-name-here-on-a-plaque was in effect in a previous
    group.  As I recall, the program was commonly considered to be
    a horrendous failure amongst us low-person-on-the-pole types,
    because the typical award recipient was Who's Most Popular
    With Management This Quarter, rather than being based on any
    kind of objective criteria.  Many in the group observed that this
    created a high level of bitterness on the part of the groups and
    people who worked hardest and/or made the most money for the
    organization.  The resulting decrease in morale across the entire
    organization more than offset the increase in morale for the
    beauty-contest winners.  After a few go-rounds of this program,
    it was considered such a joke that people actually avoided the
    award; it was considered a stigma to be associated with the thing.
    No, I didn't get an award. :-)
    
    So maybe it wouldn't work across the corporation. :-( Too bad...
    
    Chris