Conference 7.286::digital

    Look at the Policies and Procedures Manual and , if you signed one,
    your Employment contract.  
    
    Quickly: yes there is; it's not allowed.  People do break, people
    do get fired for it.  
    
    No personal experience with it myself;  I considered it, found no
    loopholes, decided against it.  My conscience and my need to eat
    regular and live indoors were instrumental in my decision to not
    do it.  
    
    

    I'm not positive (don't have the P&PM here with me), but I seem
    to remember that if you wanted to moonlight, your extra-curricular
    job could not be "competing" with Digital.  The standard approach for
    determining whether or not it was in competition with DEC was to get
    permission from your manager.  Thus, working in a pizza-place should
    be seen as "ok", working for IBM should not. ;^)

    I was providing programming support for a small client before I was
    hired and wanted to continue the support work after I joined Digital.
    My manager didn't have a problem with this, so we contacted the legal
    department for a waiver for item 7 of the Employee Agreement Form
    (back in 1985).

    I sent them a letter describing the nature of support, such as hours
    per month, configuration of the client's equipment, etc.
    
    They sent me back a letter saying that it would be okay to continue
    supporting the customer, about two or three weeks after I sent them
    my first letter.
    
    This was a few years ago, when the rules on outside consulting were
    a little different than they are today.

From P&P Section 6.06
*****************************************************************************
EMPLOYEE DOING OUTSIDE CONSULTING OR ENGAGING IN OUTSIDE BUSINESS ACTIVITIES

An employee is allowed to do outside business activity or to engage in
outside business activities provided the employee meets all the following
criteria:

A.	The consulting or outside business activity, including preparation,
	is not on Company time now does the consulting or outside business
	activity in any way impact the employee's job performance at Digital.

B.	The consulting or outside business activity does not in any way
	utilize any Digital resources; e.g., facilities, materials, equipment,
	telephones, trade secrets, Company proprietary or confidential
	information, etc.

C.	The consulting or outside business activity is not for, with, or at any
	competitor, supplier or customer.

D.	The consulting or outside business activity does not compete with any
	business activities of, or services currently offered by, Digital.

E.	The consulting or outside business activity does not result in
	significant enhancements of competitors' products, involve decision-
	making which could result in recommending competitor's products, or
	result in a significant business advantage for a competitor.

F.	Consulting or outside business activity in the field of computers or
	related activities is reviewed by the employee's manager.  In situations
	requiring interpretation of this policy, the case will be referred to
	the Business Conduct Committee for final decision.

G.	Neither Digital's name nor the position of the employee of Digital
	is used in furtherance of the outside activity.
*****************************************************************************

This doesn't leave you much.  Generally, a client needs a decision on someone
fairly quickly, and asking him to wait for the Business Conduct Committee for
review, could lead him to find someone else.

You might look into teaching at an evening college.  I know of several people
who do this.

Michael G. Moy
Field Service Business Analysis Group
Westboro, Mass.

    Please note that Digital Software Services provides consulting and
    programming as Professional Software Services.
    
    Personal consulting and/or programming would probably be considered
    as a similar service.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    Another criteria is that you not use the same skill set on your
    moonlighting task. So it is alright to do software for DIGITAL and
    stage lighting for a play afterhours. I don't know if it would be
    alright for you do nutritional consulting for DG - might depend
    on how good you are at it! :-)
    
    

Re .4:

I wonder if a consultant could successfully make the case that an individual
customer's requirements could not be satisfied by Digital consulting services?

Re .5:

Can you provide a reference to a written policy which contains this criterion?
It doesn't seem to be covered by the extract from the PP&P manual in .3.
				/AHM/THX

  Digital's anti-moonlighting rules also make it virtually impossible for some-
one to start his own business, using skills learned on his Digital job, while
staying on the job. Not doing business with Digital "customers or suppliers"
doesn't leave many people to do business with. So the entrepreneur has to leave
the company shortly after starting his business and gamble that the business 
will be successful and pay the equivalent of his Digital salary. And if he
fails, it may be impossible for him to get back into Digital due to the unoffic-
ial "no-rehire" policy. Only the most intrepid risk-taker would dare to start
his own business under these conditions, but I know of one who did. Fortunately,
his business was successful.

    I was asked a year or so ago to appear as an expert witness in a
    lawsuit for the plaintif in a case against a computer store that
    had sold the plaintif an inadequate system and told them it would
    "solve all their problems". When it didn't work the store refused
    to take the system back for a refund. Digital was not involved in
    the case in any way. The basis of my expertise was education, 10+
    years in the field and my current standing as a principal software
    engineer with a major computer manufacturer. The case would involve
    some preparation with the plainitif's lawyer, depositions, and
    appearance in court. I was to be paid an hourly fee for these services.
    
    I got approval from my supervisor and manager and also went to
    Digital's legal department and got a ruling that there was no conflict
    of interest, etc. Legal also advised me on what to be careful of
    in my testimony to avoid getting Digital involved in the case in
    any way. 
    
    The case went off without a hitch, I got my money, and Digital was
    not involved. This is an example of "moonlighting" that worked.
    
    					Dick
    

In the UK contract law would invalidate a contract which restricts trade in 
an unfair way. It is only considered fair for a company to restrict a 
current or former employee from trade involving the companies secrets or 
buisness connections.

The current UK employee agreement clause 6 requires employees to request 
permission for *any* business activity other than shares in a public quoted 
company from their manager *and* personnel rep.

This is obviously an unfair restriction of trade and thus invalid.

Dave.

re: 466.9 by GOOGLY::KERRELL 

> This is obviously an unfair restriction of trade and thus invalid.

  Hmmm... what is your basis for making this statement ? Has the 
contract been invalidated by a decision in the courts in the UK ?
Can you cite the case law please ?

  :-)

    Re .3,.4,.5:
    
    The language of the waiver I received from Legal went like this:
    
    
    Michael Moy's request for permission to continue to act as a consultant
    for 0 to 24 hours per month supporting a PDP 11/24 system which
    handles the accounting system for ABC Corporation is found not to
    be a conflict of interest.  Providing modifications and special
    reports via RSTS/E software does not represent a service currently
    provided by the Company.  This finding only applies to this single
    customer application.  Other applications would require review by
    his manager and the Business Conduct Committee.
    
    mgm
    

    I own a couple non-DIGITAL systems as well as a MicroVAX II. A year
    ago I was "informed" by another DEC employee that a customer had
    BEEN TURNED DOWN by local software services because the amount of
    revenue wasn't high enough. I pursued this to the point that the
    potential customer wanted to rent time on my non-DEC system. (I
    only have multi-tasking, multi-user systems).
    
    I went through all the proper channels (direct manager, etc.) and
    was eventually told NO, it would be a conflict of interest.
    
    There would have been NO DEC software or hardware involved but because
    it "could've been solved by DIGITAL" (even though the local office
    didn't want it) I couldn't rent time on my non-DEC system.
    
    Basically, you are boxed in no matter which way you turn.
    
    							Warren
    

My story is similar to .12

A friend at Digital and I had an idea on how to make a few bucks on the side
in a computer-related (but not Digital-related or Digital-competitive)
business.

We sent an outline of what we wanted to do to the committiee that at the time
reviewed such things....their response was that our proposed activity was
potentially in conflict with Digital because "... our proposed activity may
overlap with functions performed by [Digital's] sales force."

It was pure hogwash, it would be akin to not allowing a F.S. Engineer to
change cash register paper at his dad's grocery becuase his dad could
potentially have a Digital computer there and dad *might* pay the F.S.
Engineer to do this chore for him.

If the proposed activity involves any kind of hardware or software, forget it-
Digital might be doing just that next week!

Lee

    This is in reference to 466.3.  It was suggested that one look into
    teaching evening courses at a local college.  Is this acceptable?
     I was surprised to read this since I was told by out personnel
    dept. here in Charlotte that this was strictly a no no!  I've taught
    night classes at junior colleges for approximately 6 years before
    coming to Digital; I enjoyed the interaction with students in the
    evening programs, but was resolved to never do it again (i.e. Digital's
    rule).  If other people are doing this without any problems I'd
    sure like to know how to go about getting approval.  Would this
    be something to take up with the Business Conduct Committee?  If
    so how do I find out about this Committe?
    
    Thanks for any Answers
    
    Cody

    Good question, Cody, and I would be interested to hear the official
    answer as well.  I know there are some people with Digital here
    (southern NH) who teach at local colleges.  I used to teach academic
    evening courses in college as well, but haven't pursued it since
    I "understood" it was verboten, even though I really enjoyed the
    interaction with the students.
    
    Jon

    
    Hmmmmm....
    
    I guess I should turn myself in then...
    
    I taught at a junior college for two years and never heard anything
    about it. My manager was aware of it but I can't say for sure whether
    or not personell was.
    
    Considering I had to drive 1.5 hours each there, teach a 4 hour class,
    talk to students who needed extra help and then drive home - I guess
    I really had to enjoy it! The money wasn't worth the drive, believe
    me. I did more for Digital's image with the students than any one
    time recruiter could have every done!
    
    -Ray
    

    	Section 6.06 of the PP&P Manual deals with this.  It is 10 pages
    	long, but a couple parts I have copied here seem to deal with
    	this issue.
    
    	In part, it reads, "no employee may be employed by, or participate
    	in the business affairs of, either directly or indirectly a
    	supplier, customer, or special project partner without the 
    	written approval of the Business Conduct Committee."  So, if the 
    	college in question is a DIGITAL customer, you need written 
    	permission.  
    
    	Also, there is a part of the policy that forbids "consulting or 
    	outside business activity" which "competes with any business 
    	activities of, or services currently offered by, Digital."  So, 
    	if you're teaching a course which is similar to one offered by 
    	Ed Services, you may run into trouble again.  Teaching basket 
    	weaving may be OK, teaching PASCAL may not be.
    
    	I suggest you read the whole policy and discuss it with your
    	manager and personnel.
    
    Frank
    

    I talked to our personnel manager here and he said that as long
    as a conflict of interest isn't involved, and that the job doesn't
    affect your work at Digital, that it is okay.
    
    He also said that it wasn't a conflict of interest just because
    the university owned DEC Equipment.
    
    Michael Moy
    Westboro, Mass.
    

    Thanks for the info!  Michael, I think I should get my personnel
    manager and your personnel manager together for a talk.  The particular
    junior college that has asked me to teach courses does happen to
    have DEC equipment, but the courses I have generally taught have been
    PC BASIC, C, IBM Mainframe ASSEMBLER, and 8086 Micro ASSEMBLER.
     I certainly have no interest in taking away potential business
    from Digital, I just enjoy the interaction with students who want
    to learn programming.  I guess my next question is how do I in touch
    with this Business Conduct Committee?
    
    Cody

    >I certainly have no interest in taking away potential business from
    >Digital 

	Obviously this is an issue for the Business Conduct Committee
    to decide.
    
    However, I question how seriously ANYONE could argue that teaching
    at ANY learning institution like a high-school or college could
    ever be construed as a conflict.  I can not imagine any college
    ever paying Ed Services to teach a semester course in Pascal!
    
    Furthermore, I don't know how a week-long course in Pascal could
    ever be compared to a semester long course in Pascal.  The two courses
    are taught with different target audiences, for different business
    purposes and with totally different results.
    
    Diploma curriculums rarely recognize one-week technical courses for
    credit.  Corporations can rarely afford to wait 3-4 months to
    get an employee up to speed in a new language, product, etc.
     
    Finally, teaching Pascal on a PC (most, but certainly not ALL, colleges
    teach Turbo Pascal) hardly compares to teaching Pascal on a VAX.  You
    may know Pascal when you finish, but you have very different types of
    working knowledge afterwards. 
    
    BTW, when I asked my manager if he had any concerns with my teaching
    college courses, he said "no problem", and there wasn't even a
    consideration of talking to personnel, or anyone else.  The only
    stipulation was not to let it interfere with the work I had to do
    for DEC (i.e., don't call in sick to grade exams!). 
    
    Finally, I agree with a previous note.  When you teach a course,
    you have the opportunity to be the very first thing a future computer
    person sees when thier eyes on the world of data processing.  When
    you are the role model, and your work for DEC, you create a life-long
    impression, the value of which can NEVER be overestimated.
    
    Jim
    

    re:  Outside teaching activities
    
    I also looked into this matter when a local junior college (whose
    CS department head worked as a DEC consultant for awhile) had an
    opening for a night instructor.  I "talked" to my boss, my boss'
    boss, and a Personnel rep.  I got three different stories, so to
    play it safe, I just canned the whole idea.
    
    re:  "Talking" to Managers and Personnel

    I think this is the BIG mistake.  "Talk" implies that no formal
    permission is given.  It also usually means that the Personnel
    rep is giving you his own personal opinion, which may not be the
    right one if someone contests it later down the line.
    
    I now ALWAYS get a written reply to questions of this sort.  It
    serves several purposes and benefits both you and them:
    
    a) CYA - this part is pretty much self-explanatory
    
    b) Faced with having to do a written reply, most of them will actually
       go and do some research or ask a higher authority, rather than
       giving you an off-the-cuff answer
    
    c) You can help set the precedent for any other poor fools in the
       future who need the same problems resolved.  Word-of-mouth is
       not really much good when someone is presenting their case to
       Personnel or whoever to do what you already did ...
    
   
    Geoff

    
    In the Maynard-Marlboro area there are plenty of folks teaching
    at the local colleges.  I've been doing it for 8 years.  Personel
    ok'd it when I joined the commpany...ditto what Mr. Moy (hi, Mike)
    said.  No problem.  Its good PR for DEC and its even brought in
    some highly talented individuals from the college ranks.  I've even
    managed to secure some sales leads just by recommending our equipment
    to adminstrators and students.  No problem, you should be able to
    teach those night courses.
    
    GOG
    

    I know many Ed Services folks who teach night school on DEC equipment.
    As long as they don't use Ed Services materials it's OK with DEC.
     In fact we used these people to develop a word processing curriculum
    for Jr. Colleges.
    
    

< Note 466.21 by AUSTIN::UNLAND "Sic Biscuitus Disintegratum" >

>    a) CYA - this part is pretty much self-explanatory
>    
>    b) Faced with having to do a written reply, most of them will actually
>       go and do some research or ask a higher authority, rather than
>       giving you an off-the-cuff answer
>
>                       :
    
  Faced with putting it in writing, lots of administrivial types 
  will simply CYA and avoid the effort of discovering old precedent 
  and the risk of setting a new precedent by simply saying "No."

  It is from this universal principle springs the observation:

                It is almost always easier to get
                forgiveness than to get permission.

                                   Atlant

    re: .24
    
>  Faced with putting it in writing, lots of administrivial types 
>  will simply CYA and avoid the effort of discovering old precedent 
>  and the risk of setting a new precedent by simply saying "No."

    I make sure that they know that, if they say "No", I will double-
    check their answer and elevate it if they turn out to be wrong.
    
    Certainly, it *is* easier to ask forgiveness, but I wouldn't take
    this sort of risk over something for which I could be fired.  I
    have seen a couple of people fired (in this company!) for doing
    things and attempting to get permission for them after the fact.
    If you have a management chain that you feel will back you up,
    and will try to accomodate you, then you have the luxury of doing
    something and asking questions later.  Unfortunately, not all of
    us in the field are so lucky ...
    
    Geoff