Conference 7.286::digital

You might not have the 'total' picture.

Without knowing all the details of the case you outlined, I can fill you in
on my experience with long term disability (about 15 years ago).

Mine was also a back problem.  Yes, I could do things around the house - take
care of my children, wash dishes, etc.  But I had to stretch the chores out
to allow heavy resting between chores.

My biggest problem was not being able to SIT.  Even going to the grocery store
was a production.  At the time my son had a van which I would ride in (lying
down in the back).  Walking around the store was o.k., but I couldn't sit on
the car seat.

When I got well enough to come back to work part time, I was not able to
do so because the insurance terms made that impossible.  I had to come back
full time or not at all.  This extended my absence far beyond what it would
have been had I been able to work half days.

Guess what I'm saying is, sometimes things aren't as they appear to be.

    I agree with .1 that back problems are very tricky to diagnose.
    That's where I would prefer to leave it up to the doctors.
    
    More particularly, I've seen people appar to abuse both short- and
    long-term disability. As an employee, I've felt resentment at that. As
    a manager (but not of these people) I've had concern that the company
    was getting ripped-off. In fact, I'm sure that was happening. But the
    solutions seemed to be worse. Again, as a manager, I agree with the
    Company's policy that it's none of my business how I regard an
    employee's health; it's up to Health Services to decide. I don't know
    medicine or psychiatry or physical therapy well enough to judge
    my own condition, much less the condition of anyone else.
    
    Digital has a generous disability policy. Having a few people abuse
    it is far better than having a more cumbersome and, utimately, more
    threatening procedure.

    re:.1
    
    I understand what you mean.  That is why I needed Suggestions.
    
    My problem is that I know this person personnally.  
    There job was driving.  I feel that if they cannot drive 
    in there job then how can they drive three days to another state.  
    From what I know this person cannot go back to doing the job they 
    had and in the same breath there supposedly is no other job for 
    this person to do.  This person is not supposed to lift anything
    (was part of job and cause of injury) but lifts things all the
    time (does this make sense). 
    
    

    <--(.3)
    
    Well, it may be that in fact this person is *not* supposed to be
    doing lifting or extended driving, and by doing so s/he is risking
    further, more severe problems.  Were I a doctor reviewing the case
    for DEC, I would certainly not want to tell the individual to come
    back to work if I didn't consider her/him fit, and my judgement
    of unfitness might be defensible quite apart from the person's actual
    behavior.
    
    						=maggie

    A word or three thousand if I may...
    
    I was involved three (3) years ago in a motorcycle accident that
    nearly took my foot off. The injury leaves me with a dual disabilty
    classification (according to my wife, who is a nurse [I married
    her after meeting her in the hospital]). If I take medication to
    reduce the pain I am at about 30% disability. Without the medication
    I am at about 55% disability. I cannot walk far at all even with
    the medication. The pain almost never stops unless I lay flat on
    my back and keep the foot warm (insufficient blood flow since the
    foot was torn off with only one major blood vessel and tendon
    holding it together until the doctor bolted me back together).
    
    What I'm saying here is that I was back to work in six months (yes,
    my job allows me to sit and type on a terminal) when I could've
    LEGITIMATELY "milked" LTD for a long time. My doctor (the finest
    ortho surgeon this side of the milky way galaxy) would've easily
    given me 2 years off due to the severity of the injury. As it is
    I've been easily given a pain medication that my wifes says would
    go for $1.00 a tab on the street (it's about 3/4 the strength of
    Percodan) for over 2 and 1/2 years now. I'm trying everything I
    can to stop the pain and live a relatively normal life. (Normal
    for me now is being able to get out of my car and pump my own gas...
    something I don't do because it's too painful).
    
    Why am I writing this book? Because I saw a co-worker with a MUCH
    less serious broken leg injury "milk" the LTD system for over a
    year. I know the inside story about this person because their
    doctor was my doctor's partner. I admit I was upset about knowing
    this about the person but I didn't feel right going to personnel.
    It was none of my business. I just knew I couldn't lie around
    for 2 years. (I'm a workaholic and probably would've gone insane).
    
    I agree that DEC has the best system I've ever seen. But just like
    the "sick days" issue in another topic in this conference, there
    will always be abusers.
    
    Pain is a very subjective thing that can't be hooked up to a meter
    to give an indication of how bad a person is suffering. If such
    a device existed, we'd probably have less "abuse" of the LTD system.
    As it stands today, if a patient states to their doctor that they
    are always in pain, the doctor has no choice but to believe and
    act on that belief. (I'm just thankful my doctor understands about
    my pain -- he has seen lots of serious injuries and somehow intuitively
    knows what a patient goes through and is therefore generous with
    the pain medication). [Sidenote: for those concerned about addiction
    on this drug, it is not as addictive as Percodan and I don't take
    it on weekends if I stay off my leg. Weekends do get boring though
    when you can't go anywhere and do anything].

    Thank you for your replies.  Very helpful.
    
    I know that in the long run I should mind my own business.  But
    I've been seeing this go on for about 2 years now.  I needed some
    advice because this person is married to a relative and I have
    been torn between should I or shouldn't I do something.  So the
    bottom line right now is not let it get to me so much (even though
    I know it will).
    
    Thanks
    

    
    Try to hold back the resentment for this persons position.
    True they may have abilities to perform and could be working.
    
    Would you be resentful for the addict or alcoholic who gets 
    a three month vacation at a mountain resort?
    
    I don't think so.  
    Have you been put in similar positions?
    Has your back given you severe pain for extended periods of time?
    Do you know how much time it takes to recooperate from the pains
    of the mind or the back?
    
    We all have different thresholds of pain.
    Encourage your friend to return to work 
    for his/her own piece of mind.                                            
                             
    	cbc
    

    Unless the person's job is totally routine, I'd think that in the
    long run the malingerer would be the loser!
    
    

Re .5:

>    Why am I writing this book? Because I saw a co-worker with a MUCH
>    less serious broken leg injury "milk" the LTD system for over a
>    year. I know the inside story about this person because their
>    doctor was my doctor's partner. 

I'm not going to try to judge whether the other person was right or wrong,
or deserving or undeserving -- I don't know you or the other person, and
I certainly don't know all the facts. And I'll say right now that I admire
your spirit and perseverence in going back to work -- I think I'd do the
same (at least I hope I would).

What startled me about your reply, though, is the part extracted above.
What appears to have happened is that the two doctors talked, and your
doctor passed along information about another patient to you. This
seems to me a *serious* violation of medical ethics!  I was tempted to
ask you to identify the two doctors (so I'd know to avoid them), but
I won't, since DEC may get into trouble; however, I just hope that
any doctors my family uses don't gossip about their patients.

    	You need to be *very* careful in judging other people's physical
    problems/abilites if you are not a doctor.  
    
    	I have Rheumatoid Arthritis.  This a tricky disease.  First
    of all, it's not just a joints disease.  It attacks major organs
    as well.  It makes the patient anemic. (And to top it off, the medicines
    most often prescribed for it, also tend to cause anemia...)  It
    makes the patient very susceptible to stress.  Because of this,
    I tend to be sick more often than the "normal" person and if I don't
    take an "extra" day after I'm ill to rest up, I'll be sick again
    in a few days.  (Case in point, due to a temporary manpower shortage,
    I didn't take as much time as I needed for nurse a cold/flu, as a result,
    I was sick(taking medication) for 2 weeks and 3 days.  4 days later,
    I'm still struggling to feel well.)  Someone who didn't know my
    whole situation, could see me at home on that "extra day to rest"
    that I often take when I am ill, and assume that I was malingering.
    
    	Not only that, but the pain level with RA is very variable.
    Not only over the course of days, but over the course of a day.
    I can wake up so stiff and sore that it is difficult for me to drive
    because my neck is too stiff to look over my shoulder and my shoulders
    and wrists are so weak that I have trouble shifting.  Later in the
    day, I might be seen swimming laps or taking an Aikido class.  Evening
    might find me hitting the aspirin bottle and heating pad again...
    This is a well known feature of RA.  Doctors even give pamphlets
    to RA patients families, warning them about this, so that they don't
    mistake this situation with malingering.
           
    	Back problems are also very tricky.  My mom had a ruptured disk
    a few back and even she had trouble coping with what she could do
    and couldn't do.  She would feel well when she took her medication
    and sat still with a heating pad, and she would feel guilty about
    the family "waiting on her hand and foot".  She would get up and try
    to do something and end up in bed in extreme pain.  
                                                                   
    	So leave the diagnosis to the doctors.  If the person is not
    your direct report, it's none of your business.  If they are your
    direct report, I'd still say trust the doctor's judgement.  Have
    a little forbearance.  Next week it may be you.
    
    tlh
    
      

    Re: .9
    
    	I can't remember (and NOTEing is too slow to check) if I mentioned
    I married a nurse at the hospital I was at. My nurse/wife works with
    BOTH doctors so I got my information from my nurse/wife, NOT the
    doctors. Both doctor's are serious professionals and would never
    share patient info with another patient without prior consent. They
    might consult one another about particular cases (they ARE partners
    after all). Sorry if I misled anyone. Bomb defused.
    
    Re: .10
    
    	You are 100% correct about pain indications. While I do not
    	have anything close to what you've described, my "situation"
    	sounds VERY similar. Heating pads, medication, not wanting to
    	be a "bother" etc., are very well known to me. Some days I
    	only need a little medication to walk around. Other days I
    	need enough to take out large mammals roaming your favorite
    	continent.
    
    	You said it...the bottom line is don't judge a book until
    	you've read it. Or been there.
    
    							Warren
    

re:
< Note 464.11 by PNO::KEMERER "VMS/TOPS10/RSTS/TOPS20 system support" >
>                           -< Bomb Disposal for .9 >-

>    Re: .9
    
>    	I can't remember (and NOTEing is too slow to check) if I mentioned
>    I married a nurse at the hospital I was at. My nurse/wife works with
>    BOTH doctors so I got my information from my nurse/wife, NOT the
>    doctors. Both doctor's are serious professionals and would never
>    share patient info with another patient without prior consent. They
>    might consult one another about particular cases (they ARE partners
>    after all). Sorry if I misled anyone. Bomb defused.

You did mention that your wife is a nurse, but you didn't say anything
about her working with or for the two doctors. I kind of figured that you
might have gotten the "inside story" from your wife, who heard it from
the doctors, but I couldn't make that assumption -- the most plausible
thing seemed to be that you and your doctor were talking.

Anyway, I don't know that this "defuses" anything. I imagine that nurses
too have some ethical guidelines about discussing patient-related matters,
and that these apply even with members of one's own family. I'm not so
naive as to think that doctors and nurses don't talk about patients with
their spouses, and I can think of cases where sometimes this is good or
at least harmless (especially if the patient remains unidentified); however,
I'm not so sure it was good or harmless in this case.

    Re: .11
    
    Your concern about the ethics of this issue is ONE of the reasons
    I did nothing about it. I was not supposed to know the inside story
    so I was not about to go hollering to personnel. The SECOND reason
    I did nothing was because IT WAS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I try to
    mind my own business and not pass on what should not be passed on.
    
    As to my wife telling me about all this, all I can say is I met
    her while I was in the hospital, the other party VISITED me while
    I was in the hospital, so my wife put two and two together and
    came up with four. I REFUSE to have anything held against me
    because my wife comes home and we BOTH share what happens to
    us. That's one of the reasons I married her after ten years of
    searching. She is one woman that likes to communicate and share
    with her spouse. As do I.
    
    If anyone is to blame it is ME for asking questions of my wife I
    probably had no business asking. But as far as I'm concerned, anything
    my wifes thinks about, wants, etc. is IMPORTANT to me. We are two
    professionals (she is the Charge Nurse responsible for the entire
    floor of the hospital where she works) who just happen to have the
    same "symptoms": we both are technical consultants to co-workers.
    She interfaces with Doctor's more than any nurse on her floor.
  
    I do NOT think my wife violated her professional ethics by discussing
    another "known" patient with me because she KNEW that MY
    professionalism would not allow me to incorrectly react to the data 
    returned.
    
    While this obviously seems like a touchy subject, I know a husband/wife
    team that works at the same company which does CLASSIFIED government
    stuff to the point that when one is "SHIPPED" somewhere the other
    is not supposed to know WHERE. You tell me if their relationship
    is close enough that they tell each other anyway. I don't know for
    sure but to me it doesn't matter as long as the "classified"
    information they "share" stays inside the circle (they both have
    special security clearances). If one starts selling secrets to
    the Soviets behind the other's back, well, that's another story.
    
    The final word here is if ANYONE is at fault it is ME. My wife
    and I just don't have secrets from each other. (Oh no, another
    Pandora's box opened.....). I was curious and she was honest.
    
    BUT I DID NOTHING WITH THE INFORMATION EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A
    QUESTIONABLE SUBJECT. 
    
    Had I felt it was a "selling secrets" type of thing I might have
    acted, but the severity of the issue indicated to me to mind my
    own business.
    
    DO I need more water or is the fire finally out?
    
    								Warren
    

Re .13:

Consider the fire out.  Thanks for the explanation.

    Re .lots
    
    Although you haven't actually mentioned the name of this other person
    you might as well have. Presumably anybody that knows you could
    deduce very easily who this other person is. Now say that person
    were to be friendly with someone in personell and were to just mention.
    There is some interesting stuff in note:
    
    HUMAN::DIGITAL note 464
    
    Now if they were to read it they would very easily be able to identify
    this person that you have 'not' named. What bothers me is that if
    they then approached this other person with the information contained
    in this note then various amounts of '****' could hit the fan. It
    may even be possible that this other person could sue Digital if
    any of the information you put here turned out not to be 100% correct.
    
    I'm no lawyer but this whole discussion seems inappropiate. If I
    were to put my cynical hat on I'd say that you were trying to name
    this person without naming this person.
    
    Just my view,
    
    Dave

   Re: .15
    
    Wrong again. Any place with more than 200 employees (try that as
    a "pointer"...deliberately a wrong number) is bound to have LOTS
    of people in and out on STD, LTD, etc.  I think it would take an
    awful lot of detective work to even come close. I'm pretty well
    known where I work so it could be just about anybody. Yes, you 
    could narrow the date of my accident down but as I said, there are
    always a fair number of people in the STD/LTD process so at best
    you will have "circumstantial" evidence.
    
    I will not go into my feelings about being accused of "trying to
    point out the person without pointing them out". They no longer
    work here (possibly not even at DEC...[oh yes...another pointer for
    our potential detective]). I have NOT tried to identify this person
    and indeed am quite willing to go one-on-one with someone outside
    this conference -- even if they are from personnel where I work.
    You see, the numbers were on my side to begin with, or I would've
    said NOTHING in this conference.
    
    It's beginning to look more and more like I'm just not giving enough
    detail to satisfy all the people all the time. Sorry about that.
    I'm deliberately not giving out some detail to protect the innocent.
    
    The rest of you suspisious people will just have to live with what
    I've given you. I was only trying to point out that some people
    WILL milk the system to the teeth. But we already knew that right??
    
    Well I quit here. If you want to play detective and figure out who
    it is be my guest. You haven't been given enough to go on. But if
    you want to prove a point or waste your time...be my guest.
    
    This whole thing has been blown out of proportion in terms of
    information sharing. 
    
    Nuff said.
    
    							Warren
    

    re: .0
    
    I know what you mean. I knew "a guy" (actually a neighbor) who was
    on permanent disability for a job related back injury, and it really
    puzzled me to see him removing large trees (and stumps) with chain
    saws, pickaxe, shovel, and crowbars.
    
    He also did fishing, lifted a small jon boat onto his car, did all
    sorts of 'normal' gardening. But he didn't go hiking, though.
    
    What did happen though is that his 'back' acted up on him periodically,
    and if it 'acted up' while he was at work (a firefighter) it would have
    disabled him from performing his duties as a fireman. 
    
    In all fairness, he was a very considerate neighbor, amenable,
    trustworthy, knew most of all the city folks (counselors, mayor,
    clerks, firemen, policemen, etc.). 
    
    Since the "board" that determined the extent of the disability
    (permanent) was convened by the city where he worked, one must assume
    they were impartial and sensitive and made the right choice.
    
    //rwe