Conference 7.286::digital

    Maybe I'm mistaken but I never thought SICK DAYS were another sort
    of VACATION DAYS. In other words I thought you had to be ill in
    order to take a SICK day.
    
    Isn't a sick day a privilege not an entitlement?
    
    Dave

Agreed... sick days are for the days you are sick.  At least, thats the 
theory.  I've seen it in 3 companies, though ... people take sick days
because there's no reason not to.  Must be bored with their jobs or
something.   

When I worked at GE-AESD, they had an incentive program for perfect attendance
for the quarter, and then for the year.   During the 18 months or so that 
they ran it, the number of sick days taken decreased by over 30%!
Not sure why they did away with it, but it seemed like a money making program
to me.  Hope Digital adopts one!

I've got some of hardworking people working for me.  When they do get
sick, I want them to feel totally free to take the time to get well,
not hanging around the office contagious and half-spacey. 

What is proposed is a reward for not taking legitimate days off. 
Instead there should be a positive motivation for not taking phoney
days off, or a negative consequence for taking them. 

In a bad job environment, people are going to take phoney sick days
off anyway, reward or not.  In a good environment, people should not
be rewarded for not taking off time that they NEED to take off. 

just my $.02 

/j

    In Australia, DEC employees are allowed a certain number of 'sickies'
    which they can either use because they are genuinely ill or as ordinary
    leave if they are healthy types. I don't know how many days this
    amounts to (perhaps one of the Antipodean correspondents can help here)
    or if it happens in other DEC subsidiaries (certainly doesn't apply
    here in the UK!) but it did strike me as a strange idea. Maybe it's a
    std employment feature in the computer industry in Australia (?). 

    My personal view is that some sort of 'reward' for a good attendance
    record would be a good idea although I agree with Jeff in .3 that it
    would be much better motivationally if it was presented as an incentive
    for NOT taking phoney days off. Taking a very laissez faire attitude
    towards the taking of days off sick without real cause can cause
    severe organisational problems if the situation becomes endemic.

    Government legislation here in the UK to some extent aggravates the
    situation by allowing employees to 'self certificate' themselves for
    periods of up to 7 working days before having to have a doctor certify
    them as unfit for work. The reason this was introduced was to cut
    back on expenditure within the Department of Health & Social Security
    (DHSS) by putting the onus of payment to sick employees (for short
    periods) on the employer rather than on the Social Security system
    (otherwise known as the taxpayer). It certainly achieves this objective
    but as a consequence I do believe that it has made the taking of
    a couple of days off 'just because I don't feel like going into
    work' more acceptable.

    Jon

    Sick days are a *benefit*, part of the compensation an employee
    receives for working here. No certification is required for one
    or two days off, because folks with the '24hr quick step' don't
    usually go the doctor. Most of the participants in this file
    are, probably, WC4. Look at it from a WC2 perspective, a bennie
    not used is a bennie lost. And I think it still has some effect
    on their withholding taxes. Bad working environment? Nah! Just
    the labor vs big management viewpoint. Nothing new, this has
    been in effect as long as paid sick days have. Anyone that doesn't
    realize this, is wearing rose colored glasses. Welcome to the
    real world.
    
    I really don't see how you can make an incentive program work.
    You'd just wind up with a lot of contagious and/or spaced out
    on antihistamine folks wandering around.
    
    Bob Mc

    re .3: Well said.
    
    Here (in Germany) I think DEC pays up to six weeks (after which
    the medical insurance picks the cost). I'm not sure about the details
    though, I've never been sick so long (and don't really feel like
    needing to be "sick" for so long...).
    
    A doctor's certificate is required if you're sick for longer than
    4 consecutive days if explicitely requested by your manager.
    

    In my opinion sick days means sick days and nothing else.
    Incentives for not taking sick days ????
    How would you explain this to your favorite microbe ?
    In the ideal world (arent we working towards it ?) a manager
    would perfectly trust his/her's employees on the validity of
    taking sick days. If a manager can't there is something rotten
    in the relationship anyway.
    Recently an employee in our group had to stay home (by doctor's
    certificate, for which I couldn't care less, but needed for
    personnel/Social security). She begged (literally) for having a
    terminal at home for doing some work. She got it and did some
    good job and felt not having been excluded etc.. etc...
    In this case I would have hated to see her loose whatsoever
    artificial benefit from any incentive program.
    
    Fred
    

    At one time I worked for Motorola Semiconductor.  They had an
    incentive plan that worked very well.  Each employee was given X
    number of sick days same as DEC W2.  These days were good for
    one calendar year.  If you used them for sickness or personal
    days they didn't care but at the last week of the year you got
    a check paying you standard hourly wage for the unused days.
    
    Seems to be a better idea than the DEC use em or loose em policy.
    
    Judie
    
    

  My wife once worked as a teacher for a public school district which adopted
  an interesting experiment.  For years the contract had specified that each
  teacher was allowed 10 (I think) sick days per year.  Result: with few
  exceptions every teacher took a total of 10 sick days. A new contract
  specified an unlimited number of sick days per year. Result: average sick
  days taken per year dropped to 2.  I'm not sure what the moral is here,
  except perhaps that among professionals no supervisor is stricter than
  an internalized one. 

    I'm a WC4, so maybe this doesn't totally apply.  I got into a "mail
    war" discussion with someone a couple of years ago about using "sick
    days" for the Jewish holidays.  He was incensed that I would take
    vacation days off for them (realizing that you can lose up to half
    your vacation days this way to days when you do not get to "vacation"
    at all but instead spend the whole day sitting in the synagogue,
    if you are a relatively new employee - I have been here almost 12
    years, so it doesn't matter so much -- even in a year where all
    the holidays fall on days DEC doesn't otherwise have off, I still
    get most of my vacation time).  He thought that healthy people should
    take sick days for them - especially since he knew that I hardly
    ever get sick so that it is a bad year for me if I have taken even
    two or three sick days (this was a bad year -- had the flu in April
    and was out for 3 days...).  Still, maybe he has a point: I usually
    feel pretty sick by the end of Yom Kippur, especially if it is early
    in the year and very hot out - you can get pretty dehydrated by
    the end of a 25-hour fast (no liquids, either) if you don't have
    air-conditionning and it is in the 90s :-(.  But I still take
    "vacation" days when I have to be missing from work and am not actually
    ill.  The other fellow thought I was helping to set a bad precedent.

>    At one time I worked for Motorola Semiconductor.  They had an
>    incentive plan that worked very well.  Each employee was given X
>    number of sick days same as DEC W2.  These days were good for
>    one calendar year.  If you used them for sickness or personal
>    days they didn't care but at the last week of the year you got
>    a check paying you standard hourly wage for the unused days.
>    
>    Seems to be a better idea than the DEC use em or loose em policy.

I'm missing the point here:  Doesn't this penalize the poor guy who 
ran his days out cause he got pnemonia or something (not wishing this 
on anyone, btw).  Doesn't it also reward, in a very emphatic way ($$ in 
the pocket), the guy who comes in with 101 fever and veges out at his 
desk?

I can just see the mid-December discussion now:

Supervisor:  "You look like hell, go home, come back when you're well"
Employee:    "But I'm counting on the sick-day bonus to make my next 
		car payment"
    
/j

Taking sick days from DEC when you're not sick would probably be perceived by
upper management to be stealing.

    Re: .4 - sickies in Australia
    
    Jon,
    
    	I don't think you quite have the facts correct. DEC employees
    here in Australia are entitled to a certain number of sick days
    a year. Theoretically they are to be used only when sick, but, as
    with most systems, there are some people who abuse this entitlement
    and do take a 'mental health day' (i.e. sick of work) every now
    and then. This is NOT condoned and certainly is not encouraged.
    
    michael

    
    	I am quite sensitive to my energy levels, and I have noticed
    that if I let my energy level get quite low for many days, that
    I will then get sick.   So, if I take a sick day, *before* I get
    sick, it may only take me one day to recover my energy.   On the
    other hand, if I wait, and work myself to death when my energy is
    lacking I am *certain* to get sick, and probably for a lot more
    than one day.    In general, I don't miss much time, since I am
    careful to guard my health.
    
       The "workaholics" I have known may go for years without 
    missing time, but when they get sick they are usually out for 
    a *long* time.    Lots of people make themselves sick, to have 
    an excuse to rest.   Is it not better to allow yourself 
    to rest when you need it, before you get ill?   
        
       Also, I am disgusted by the policy of requiring a note from 
    the Doctor.  Are we children?  I don't generally believe in 
    depending on doctors, but this policy seems to force me to seek 
    the help of a Doctor when I don't want to.
    
    	No one can make the judgement as to when I need sick time,
    but *me*.   Am I wrong to take sick time when I am just tired?
    I don't think so, particularly if I use this time to be more
    effective at work later.   It has been mentioned that the people
    who take "mental health days" off, are the healthy people who
    don't expect to be really sick enough to be obviously ill.
    I believe that the willingness to rest may be one reason why
    such people don't get sick as often.

	I believe that giving a set number of sick days per year
    is a certain way to get people to take more days off than
    they might really need, and to penalize people who might really
    need more.   As a wc4, I have noticed that I take fewer days off 
    than when I worked for an hourly wage.   At other jobs I've had, where
    there were a set number of sick days, everyone took every available
    day.
    
    	Giving people freedom  and responsibility is the only way to 
    get people to *be* responsible.

    	Alan.

    re .-1:
    
    >Is it not better to allow yourself 
    >to rest when you need it, before you get ill?   
    
    Sure; but I always thought that's what vacation is for, to recover
    and collect energy for the work. I occasionally take a day or two
    off, but *off of my vacation*. Of course, over here we have six
    weeks vacation, so there's a bit more tu use than in US.
    
    As pointed out by several others, I'd say sick days are just that,
    to be taken when you're ill. No one should be penalized for being
    ill (but neither encouraged to cheat). If you need extra days off
    just to recover, then something is wrong - your work is too hard,
    you have too little *vacation* which, as I see it, is the time to
    be used for recovery.
    

    re.  My base note...
    
    I am a wage class 2 employee, and was directing it towards that
    level.  
    
    I had a boss who encouraged "mental health" sick days to the people
    who took 0-3 sick days a year.  It seemed like a good idea in his
    perspective.
    
    I do agree that it could be discriminatory to people who are really
    sick, or encourage sick people to stay in work.
    
    I guess I was just bothered by the former mentality of some of the
    people who I used to work with. {no reward for not abusing or using
    sick time}.
    
    Bruce

    re .13
    
    Michael, thanks for the clarification. However, my comments were
    not based on rumour, they were based on experience. A couple of
    years ago, I came over to Oz to do some work for SWS in Sydney (Pacific
    Highway) and while I was there I had occaision to ask a guy's manager
    where he was that day since I needed some information from him.
    I was told that he was taking a sickie to go do some shopping or
    surfing etc. It seemed normal practise and was described to me as
    such.
    
    Jon

  A question, who's definition of "sick" do we use?  Does DEC describe what
constitutes being sick?  Does your immediate supervisor or manager?  I think
that if *YOU* don't feel well enough to come to work, or if you're afraid
you might be contagious you *SHOULD* stay home.

  In my district we work 24 x 7 and we have been passing strepe around until
several of us finally stayed home, took antibiotics and got over the infection.
But before we were cured, people were leaving part way through a shift, or 
getting spacey, and we were all losing.

  I also believe that *SICK* should include *MENTAL HEALTH DAYS*.  I know many
feel that people who take days off to rest or clear their heads are cheating
the company, but if you get stressed out it can effect your work and all those
you deal with including customers.  I think its better to stay home one day and
get things back in perspective than to continue in a poor state of mind.  In
fact, a perceptive manager can see a subordinate needing a mental state change
and will recommend it.  Many WC2 employee's have less than totally stimulating
work situations (many of us are working doubly hard to find the *RIGHT* 
position), and most of the people I work with are taking care of famlies, 
going to school, and doing the best their best on the job all at once.

  One other point, I have two weeks vacation, last year I never got more than
two vacation days off in a row, or more than 4 days in a row including week-
ends.  I also worked five holidays, and worked many of my normal days off on
standby for co-workers who were on vacation or off sick.  A person needs time
off regardless of job satisfaction.    

    re.  .18
    
    Thank GOD/{insert favorite higher power}, that some of our supervisors/
    managers realize the need for MH days.  While working at FXO as
    one of the lead technical support people, I was not uncommon for
    me to work a month without a day off.  My average work week during
    a peak six month period was 65 hours.  It was well appreciated when
    my boss would tell me to scoot for the afternoon, telling me I don't
    look to well.
    
    Bruce

    re .several: Wouldn't it be better to introduce legislation that
    guarantees a reasonable amount of days off (and workhours/week) than just
    to rely on your manager's/supervisor's good will?
    
    As I said before I think sick days are just for that. If you need
    mental health days that you cannot afford to take off of your vacation
    something is wrong in the system.
    

I consider a difference between mental health days and comp time.  

When I work hard and put in a lot of hours, I will work out an agreement
with my boss so that I can take a day or two later.  This is comp time.

If I don't show up to work and call in sick, I think that is what we have
been calling mental health days.  

I think there is a considerable difference between the two.

John    

Re .20: 

	To repeat a famous old quote "The law is an ass".  Setting up
inflexible rules in place of human judgment is not going to solve the
problem.  What is needed is a way to motivate people to do their best work
and not abuse their sick leave.  An understanding attitude is more likely to
do this than anything else in my opinion. 

    In the FWIW Dept. 
    
    M.I.T. recently told some of its workers that they could not donate
    their sick time to an fellow employee who had used up his because
    of a kidney transplant.

I wonder where we've discussed this before?  Here?  SOAPBOX?

Re .23:

Do MIT employees receive any compensation for untaken sick days or perfect
attendance records?  As I've said before, untaken sick days have no value for
barter in a system where you don't receive some form of compensation for
their accrual.
				/AHM/THX

RE: < Note 429.24 by DENTON::AMARTIN "Alan H. Martin" >

> Do MIT employees receive any compensation for untaken sick
> days or perfect attendance records?  As I've said before,
> untaken sick days have no value for barter in a system where
> you don't receive some form of compensation for their accrual. 

  I'd suspect that the transplant patient probably had a 
  limited number of fully paid sick days, and these days
  have now run out.  Thus, the sick days of others may
  have no value to them but great value to the patient.

                                   Atlant

    re:.23
    
    MIT is TECHNICAL about everything. 

Re .25:

I fear you misunderstand the thrust of my question.  We seem to agree that
unused sick days are of essentially no value to healthy employees in a context
where unused where they are not compensated by the employer (like DEC). 
However, in contexts where unused sick days can be redeemed for money, vacation,
etc., they *are* worth something to healthy employees.  I'm was interested in
knowing which describes the situation at MIT.

(You can't take the above too far, because people are not "healthy" or "sick"
at all times, or predictably.  It is an abstraction from the real world which
will fail under sufficient scrutiny).
				/AHM/THX

Pay for sick time is an insurance policy.
In some cases, such as long term disability, this is literally true,
and we pay premiums to make it so.  In other cases, such as the normal
six days per year (or whatever), the "premium" is implicit in salary/wage
rate computation.  Presumably we could all get 1-2% wage increases
if we all decided to forgo our normal sick pay policy.
Now when you pay your auto or homeowner's insurance bill at the start
of the year, you hope you never see the benefits from it, but if you don't,
you don't (normally) get the money back either.
However, if you subscribe to a mutual insurance company, excess premiums
are returned as dividends at the end of the policy period.

How about if we treat sick pay the same way?
Unused but accounted for sick time (and we all know that time=money)
goes into a pool, and the effective monetary value surplus is returned to the 
participants at the end of the period.  Periods may be staggered so not 
all participants are in the same pool.
Thus we return some benefit to the population, providing some incentive
to reduce the taking unneeded sick time, but distributing the responsibility
so individuals do not  feel that they are losing quite so much if they
break a perfect attendance record.
This is a somewhat altruistic plan, as people have to recognize they are all
part of the pool, but it does split the difference between considering
sick time as a right (regardless of illness) and a commodity (repayable
one for one).

- tom powers]

    In an organization that rewards performance, there is ALREADY an
    incentive for avoiding unnecessary sick days:  getting the chance
    to be on the job, finishing that proposal, rewriting that
    inefficient piece of code, or whatever, and hence, enhancing 
    career potential, getting a bigger raise....
    Strong performers should have get whatever latitude they need
    in defining "sick days" if it helps them maximize their efforts.
    Poor performers, sick or not, don't belong.
    
    MATT

>    re .several: Wouldn't it be better to introduce legislation that
>    guarantees a reasonable amount of days off (and workhours/week) than just
>    to rely on your manager's/supervisor's good will?

This may sound fine to someone from Europe, but introducing legislation
regarding vacation time would be a pretty drastic step towards socialism
in the United States.  There is currently no legislation requiring employers
to grant employees any vacation time at all.

/john

    This sure sounds fine to me, and works quite good too.
    
    If the average American finds legislated vacation to be socialistic,
    that's fine with me too, I am not planning to go to work there anyway.
    

    The company where my wife works had an incentive program where they
    gave you $500 if you went two years without taking a sick day. 
    The problem was that people who were clearly sick, came in anyway
    so as not loose the bonus.  Illnesses then were spread around the
    office, and at one point nearly everyone in my wife's department
    was really sick.  After realizing that this policy was costing them
    money in the long run, it was dropped.
    
    					John G.
    

    
    There are places that give their employees 6 weeks "earned" time.
    It can accrued from year to year.  The 6 weeks is actually the
    pooled time of 2 weeks vacation, 10 holidays and 2 weeks of 'sick'
    time.  The individual can use it anyway they wish, but for every
    day not in work an "earned" day is used.  There are several good
    reasons for them doing this, amoung others is that a large percentage
    of the staff must work during holidays so its up to the individual
    when or if they take a day off around a normal holiday (or they
    could save the day so that the next holiday they aren't scheduled
    to work they can take the extra day then).  This seems to be a highly
    enlightened policy, it allows the individual to make the choice
    of which 'holidays' they wish to observe and separates the stigma
    between vacation days off (which people think of one way) and sick
    days (which if in a different time pool, they think of a different
    way).  If you use up all of your earned time due to long term illness
    then LTD kicks in.  If you use up all your earned time and get the
    flu, you lose a days pay.  Therefore even more so than usual it
    pays to stay healthy in terms of having more discretionary (sp?)
    time available to do with as an individual wishes.  
    
    Does such a place really exist?, yes my wife works at company that
    employs such a policy. I find a policy such as the one above more 
    to my liking than most.  
        

    RE: .20,.30...
    I don't know for Germany, but in France there is no need to create
    "legal" sickdays. They allready exist. In fact when you are sick,
    normally you would be paid by Social Security. Within DEC it works
    as follows:
    For employees with less than 1 year with DEC:
    Full salary up to one month, SS salary afterwards.
    (DEC receives the SS payment during one month)
    For employees with more than 1 year with DEC:
    Full salary up to six months, SS salary afterwards.
    (DEC receives the SS payments during the 6 months)
    This is excellent coverage and I sincerly believe that there aren't
    many employees around that abuse it.
    This is also the reason why you need to turn in a doctor's
    certificate for sickness exceeding 1 ?, 3 ? days. 
    If you don't DEC looses the SS payment.
    BTW.: Does anyone have statistics comparing absence days between
    various countries. It might show that more "social" countries
    are less productive, but if every company would be like
    (drum-rolls and fanfare, please) DEC it might proof different.
    Fred
    

    
    	I have been at DEC for 15 years. I spent my early career at
    	DEC as a WC2 for 5 years and since have been a WC4 supervisor/
    	Manager.
    
    	My observations during that time are numerous. I shall share
    	some of them with you.
    
    	Not all WC2 are created equal. The system of reward/punishment
    	for taking sick time varies from function to function and job
    	to job. Manufacturing uses days sick, lateness etc as a measure
    	on performance reviews. High number of instances and your
    	review is impacted negatively while a low number of instances
    	is rewarded by a better evaluation. This of course is reflected
    	in the increase amount etc. Other areas such as Computer Operators
    	seem to be measured less severely in this area unless there
    	is a serious issue with attendance. Given these people work
    	crazy hours including holidays etc. they seem to be viewed
    	differently.
    
    	I honestly feel that many if not most WC2 employess view sick
    	time as a benefit to be taken or lost. I admit that I felt
    	that way myself as a WC2.
    
    	I believe that we should pay our employess for sick time NOT
    	used each year. Any method we use at DEC will be abused by
    	some no matter what. The issue to me is that I would rather
    	have a "healthy" employee at work being productive while
    	being paid than at home "sick" while really healthy and being
    	paid. If employees take their 12 days no matter what, we are
    	paying them and getting no productivity at all. If we pay
    	for unused sick time at years end we at least gain the 
    	productivity for the days not used and people were at work.
    	If people are really sick they should take the time they need,
    	but you know I see many WC4s with no limit to sick time at
    	work while ill too. Pick the reason you like best, the point
    	is people will work sick and people will take sick time off
    	when well. I do not think this system will foster more people
    	being at work while sick than already takes place now.
    
    	I also believe in the socalled Mental Health Days. Wc4 employees
    	have more flexibility in this matter than WC2s. Quite often
    	I have found the real reason a person has been out falls into
    	this category. As stated previously there are times when taking
    	time for mental health is necessary especially in high stress
    	positions and this includes WC2 people! It is about time we
    	recognize STRESSlike issues as an illness. If let untreated
    	they become physical illnesses eventually and long term at
    	that.
    

    	I do not favor compensating people for not taking their sick
    time.  I have a health problem described in the note on "Abuse of
    LTD". I need days off when I am ill.  I don't appreciate an attitude
    that treats me as if I am malingering when I am legitamately ill.
    
    
    	I take Mental Health days from time to time.  I do not use sick
    time for them.  When I feel I'm about to "lose it", I'll take a
    day or two of vacation or comp time.  (My job requires extra evenings
    and weekends so I do get some comp.)  If I'm ill, I'll often take
    one more day when I'm "marginal" at the companies expense, because
    it'll keep me from going out sick again a few days later.  By the
    way, I can tell pretty well when I getting close to the edge.  Three
    weeks ago I aranged to take a Friday and Monday off (at my expense)
    to rest up.  Thursday night I was in bed with chills and a fever
    of 103.  I was sick the entire time I was out and I paid for it
    with my time.  I feel I have a responsible attitude toward my
    obligation to the compnay and my use of the sick time benefit they
    give me.  I resent programs that show that management doesn't trust
    me.  The only incentive I need to keep my sick days for sickness
    and take mental health days on my own time, is the appreciation
    I get from my boss, when I do a good job and the understanding I
    get from her around my situation.  
    
    	Call me weird, but the more people try to control my every waking
    moment, the more I want to "get away" with something.  My management
    over the past couple of years has been superb.  I've been flourishing
    in my job and my reviews show it.  It's largely due to a boss
    that trusts me, expects me to act as a responsible reasonable
    adult, and gives me the freedom to do so.  I'll knock myself out
    for my current management.  On the other hand, my reponse toward local 
    "incentive" programs has been to be insulted that they feel that they can
    "manipulate" me easily.  (You have to see the programs to understand...)    
    I'd rather they spend the money on things that I need to get my job
    done.
                   
    tlh
    

    My problem is just the opposite - I rarely get sick. And when I
    do, it's usually a mild cold that doesn't keep me out of work.
    So I work when mildly ill, and get nothing for the effort. Fair?
    When I see co-workers taking off for every sniffle and headache,
    it bugs me, and I get frustrated. After a while it builds up to
    where I need a day off. Now, should I take a vacation day ?
    
    In a pigs eye !

    Re: .36
    
    	Having come from the LTD Abuse topic, I too can speak for
    "resting up" to prevent illness, etc. Ever since my accident
    (see another topic on that) I catch everything that is within
    100 miles of my body. I was back in six months from an accident
    that would've kept a lot of people out TWO YEARS. But I pay
    for my hard work and attempts to always BE THERE. It's a little
    easier on me since I'm on 24 hour standby anyway so I'm always
    available, but as stated in .36, I'm lucky my management 
    understands that when I can I give 125%, but there are days when
    I just can't.
    
    I can relate to .37 because before my accident I too was a "never
    got sick" person. Now I have to watch very carefully. It's so bad
    that if a co-worker comes to work with sniffles I get out a surgical
    mask and put it on (my wife is a nurse so masks are in good supply).
    The mask is for ME, not the other person, although I admit that
    if I get sniffles I again wear the mask out of courtesy for my
    co-workers. They don't want my cold anymore than I do. [Sidenote:
    this is commonplace in Japan. You see people with surgical-type
    masks all the time and they think nothing of it. It is not honorable
    over there to give one's cold to one's neighbor. (That's where I
    picked up on the idea)].
    
    	As I said in the other topic, every person's mileage may vary.
    
    							Warren
    

    Instructors know they are not allowed to get sick or die during
    a course week.

    To all those that have proposed that DEC pay employees for unused
    sick days,all I can say is:GET REAL! Do some simple math. Can you
    imagine DEC or any other company paying out all those bucks? Let's
    leave the system alone,it works ok!

    To which I say - calculate the amount lost to paying employees
    out on 'mental health' days, and the productivity lost due to
    their absence. Might just be a bargain.

    My wife works for a competitor which gives its employees a `sick-pay
    bonus' for unused sick-days.  I believe it benefits both parties
    in that the company gets more productivity and the employees are
    rewarded for being at work.  Generally, my wife only takes 1 sick-day
    per quarter and at the end of that quarter, she receives 2 days
    bonus pay.  Comes in handy.  One major drawback though.  Some people
    get caught-up in getting the bonus that they will go to work when
    really sick.  That's when brains and consideration are appreciated.
    
    John

    Re. .36 & .38 Thank you, thank you, thank you.  You both really
    said it better than I probably will.
    
    Paul Simon had a song in an old album that went "yesterday, it
    was my birthday, I hung one more year on the line"......  Un-
    fortunately for me, every time I hang one more year on the line,
    a wheel seems to fall off the wagon :-)
    
    I *wish* I could be one of those folks who never got sick; but
    I'm not.  I too, resent co-workers who make snide remarks when
    I've been out ill.  I suffer from upper respiratory problems,
    and I am a life-long non-smoker.  Unlike someone else in an
    earlier note, I do not resent co-workers who take off with
    sniffles or colds; I resent co-workers who *stay* at work under
    such conditions.......they may have a cold, but I can guarantee
    that by the time those germs get to my cube, I'll wind up with
    bronchitis or walking pneumonia!!
    
    I've also recently been diagnosed as having fairly severe
    osteoarthritis.  No one is having more difficulty than I am
    understanding how it is that I can work on a Monday in pain,
    but function........then can't get out of bed on Tuesday!
    My doctors are still trying to find a medication that will 
    alleviate my symptoms to the max, yet not give me ulcers two
    years down the road.  This is not a day at the beach folks!!
    
    I truly envy those people who rarely get ill.  Who has the
    answers as to why some folks rarely get ill and others are
    frequently ill - is it a crap shoot, genes, what?  When I
    call in sick, I'm sick...........if I need a mental health
    day, I take a vacation day.
    
    Another view, albeit negative, is that for some people, the
    only positive aspect of their "performance" is that they *do*
    show up every day.  What they do after they get to work makes
    you wonder.  They work in the same mode all the time; we could
    be in a crisis situation, yet these folks work at the same
    pace - they do not over-extend themselves even if the crisis is
    of short duration.  Who knows, maybe that is why they rarely
    get ill.
    
    I've suffered through LTD as a WC2, so I know that's no fun,
    although I am now WC4, as I said, if I need a mental health
    day I take a vacation day.
    
    I would gladly exchange good health with no monetary reward
    or incentives, for what has recently been placed on my platter.
    
    To be honest, I've never heard anyone in my group say they
    were taking a sick day "to get some personal things done".
    If folks are abusing the system, then it's a management issue.
    If you are one of those folks who rarely get ill, it's too bad
    you can't view your good health as reward enough.
    
    Just my two cents......
    
    
    Karen
    
    

    
    I am usually a "read only" noter but felt I must reply to this one.
    
    I am originally from Texas but now live and work in the UK.  When I
    lived in the States I was a nurse and got the standard 2 weeks vacation
    and thought it was very generous of the hospital I worked for to allow
    me to take one week of this after working for them only 6 months.  They
    also generously would give me one extra vacation day for every 2 days of 
    unused sick leave I might have lying around. (This might be less
    controversial than paying unused days.)
    
    Then I married a Brit and moved to the UK.  Here it is a LAW that
    companies must give employees 4 weeks paid holiday per year. (Some
    companies give more that the statutory requirement and DEC is one.)
    The employee must take these days between 1 Jan and 31 Dec in any given
    year.  Also, employees do not have to "earn" vacation days.  You are
    entitled to these days from the day you start work.  For example, if
    I started a job on 1 July, I would have 10 holiday days to take before
    1 Jan.
    
    I think that this liberal attitude to time off is good for
    productivity.  If I need a mental health day, I just tell my manager I
    want Friday or Monday or whatever, off as holiday.  This will of course
    depend on whatever the state of the current crisis is, but I have found 
    that managers here are very understanding when you tell them that
    things are really getting on top of you and you need a day away from
    it.   Having four weeks means that I can get in the annual 2 weeks in
    the sun or skiing or whatever, and still have days to take for me, sick
    kids, sick partner, deliveries, etc.  
    
    It is my opinion than annual leave should be extended and made law and
    that Americans should stop worshiping workaholics and those people who
    work sick.  If I turned up here with a full blown cold/flu I would get
    good natured but snide remarks about why I am in the office spreading
    disease to everyone else! As a former nurse, I can assure you that you
    recover from illness much quicker when you rest and let your body get
    on with the battle.
    
    				Cheers,
    
    				LaDonna
    

    re .-1
    
    Of course, the Germans wonder how the British can survive on
    a measly 4 weeks holiday a year...

	re: .44
	
	Is that 4 weeks of paid vacation or 4 weeks of paid holidays?
	Or is  that  4  weeks of paid (vacation + holidays)?  You seem to
	use the terms  as  synonyms in .44.  But here in the States, they
	refer to two different types of paid days off.
	
	In  the  U.S., a  paid holiday is usually a company-selected day,
	typically falling on a public  holiday  such  as  New Year's Day,
	Memorial Day, Independence Day (July 4),  Labor Day, Thanksgiving
	Day, and Christmas Day.  Digital offices are generally closed  on
	a paid holiday.  A vacation day is a day selected by the employee
	to take off when Digital is open.  
	
	A new full-time employee in the U.S.  actually does  get  4 weeks
	off per year:   2  weeks  of  paid  holidays  and 2 weeks of paid
	vacation.  The  only  difference  is  that  they can only use the
	vacation days as they accrue.  
	
	Now if  an  employee in Britain receives 4 weeks of what the U.S.
	calls vacation in  addition to a couple of weeks of what the U.S.
	calls paid holidays, then the difference is more dramatic.

	
	re: .45
	
	So what's the deal in Germany?

    re .46: I think this has been discussed somewhere in this conference
    before...
    
    There are some regional variations in holidays so I take Munich as an
    example because that's where DEC HQ is (and where I'm located):
    there are 14 public holidays (paid, that is, at least when you're
    salaried). Some of these may fall on a Saturday or Sunday which is not
    compensated. (This year these were New year's day which was a Sunday,
    and 17th June which will be a Saturday). Leaves 12 paid holidays this
    year.
    
    The *vacation* is 30 working days i.e. 6 weeks if you take it in weeks
    with no public holidays. Taking e.g. four weeks starting April 29 this
    year you would use up 16 of your vacation days because those four weeks
    contain 4 holidays (May 1 Labour day, May 4 Ascension, May 15 Whit
    Monday, May 25 Corpus Christi).
    
    In addition, DEC Munich has flexitime - you can take so called 'bridge
    days' (literal translation of the German term) off using your
    accumulated flexitime hours. 'Bridge days' are single days that fall
    between e.g. a public holiday and a weekend (like Friday, May 5 and May
    26 this year).
    

    
    Sorry for the confusion of terms.  The deal in Germany is definitely
    better than the UK!
    
    Here in Great Britain we get a minimum of 4 weeks pain vacation that we
    can take at our discression (and managers agreement).  In addition,
    Digital give 3 more days that must be taken at management's discresion.
    These days are usually taken at Christmas time.  We also get what are
    called "Bank Holidays" (public holidays) and these vary depending on
    where you live in the UK.  England, Wales and Scotland get 12 days
    although the Scottish dates are sometimes different from those in
    England and Wales.  Northern Ireland gets 15 public holidays, some of 
    which are on different days to the rest of the UK. (Don't ask me why,
    I'm sure it must be historical).
    
    It is definitely something you can get used to in a hurry.  I would
    think about it a long time before I gave up two weeks vacation to move
    back to the US!
    
    
    LaDonna
    

    
    I wasn't paying attention to my calendar and included too many
    days in the Bank Holidays.
    
    England,Scotland and Wales get  8  days sometimes on different days.
    Northern Ireland gets 10 days, sometimes on different days.
    
    That's what happens when you have an 18 month calendar and are'nt
    reading it carefully!
    
    LaDonna

Re: < Note 429.48 by UKCSSE::LMCDONALD >
    
>    Here in Great Britain we get a minimum of 4 weeks pain vacation that we
						       ^^^^
Beautiful.
Stephen

>    re .46: I think this has been discussed somewhere in this conference
>    before...
    
    	Holidays/vacations are also discussed in note 703 - "Does
    accrued vacation vary by country".  The holiday schedules for
    various countries are posted there.

    	Amy

.50�< Note 429.50 by RTOISB::TINIUS "I dont drink water, fish swim in it" >
.50�                             -< non-ERROR in .48 >-
.50�
.50�Re: < Note 429.48 by UKCSSE::LMCDONALD >
.50�    
.50�>    Here in Great Britain we get a minimum of 4 weeks pain vacation that we
.50�						           ^^^^
.50�Beautiful.

    Yes,if you're a masochist it must be great to work in the UK!

        Pain vacation?  Is that like a "mental health day"?  The thought
        crossed his mind, but then he realized that that made too much
        sense -- no multibillion dollar corporation would formalize the
        availability of mental health days to the point where you got
        20 of them a year, no questions asked...
        
        Tom

    
    RE: pain vacation
    
    OK.  Ha Ha very funny.  It's amazing how people will let a slightly
    humorous typo completely eclipse the whole point.
    
    The point I was trying to make is that people working in the US do not
    get enough time off.  They are made to feel guilty about taking sick
    time or even in some cases what little vacation they *are* allowed. 
    Consequently, there is a high rate of stress that leads to burnout,
    physical and mental illness.  How much does this end up costing
    companies in the way of insurance benefits, reduced productivity and
    quality, and extended sick leave for those who eventually capitulate?
    
    The old saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is 
    one that management at all levels in all businesses should really take 
    to heart.  
    
    
    LaDonna
    

    re: .54
    
    I think you are over-generalizing.  I work in the U.S., and I do not
    feel guilty about taking vacation.  I would feel guilty about taking
    sick time if I weren't really sick, though.
    
    Although some U.S. workers are undoubtedly stressed out, we aren't all.
    
    Here in ZKO we have a ``wellness center'' that provides exercise, etc.
    This could certainly be considered "prevention".  I think ZKO's
    management has taken your old saying seriously.
        John Sauter

RE: .-2

	And then there are those of us with over 5 weeks of vacation time
	accrued and no place to go! (cuz we are saving for other things..)
	Believe me, if I could afford it, I'd be on a sunny beach right now
	for 2 weeks..

						mike