| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 410.1 | | KLAATU::THIBAULT | Take this john and flush it. | Mon Nov 02 1987 08:52 | 8 |
| No, you're not alone. I know several people, myself included, who've
had a tough time dealing with personnel. If you're on the outside looking
in, it's even worse since it's sometimes difficult to know who the hiring
manager is. If you're already on the inside then at least you can skip
personnel altogether, which is not difficult since you can rarely find them
anyway.
Jenna
|
| 410.2 | No - you're not the only one. | DANUBE::D_MONTGOMERY | Confuse-a-cat | Mon Nov 02 1987 08:54 | 11 |
|
The last 3 resumes I sent to Digital Recruiters (all in reply to
jobs posted in VTX Jobs Book) got no response whatsoever.
Two were sent to the same recruiter, so after one month, I followed
up with a VAXMAIL query: Why have I received no response?
I still haven't heard from him.
The other requisition has been put "on hold", but of course, no
one thought to tell me that.
Don Montgomery
|
| 410.3 | Count me in too | TLE::SAVAGE | Neil, @Spit Brook | Mon Nov 02 1987 10:05 | 15 |
| I've worked at Digital as writer for almost three years now. When
I began looking for a job, my brother (who has worked at Digital
even longer--in personnel!) gave me the name of a recruiter of
technical writers. The results were discouragingly negative.
The tactic that got me my job involved taking the names of writing
technical advisors off the back of a Middlesex Community College
brochure. The person I contacted happened to be the highest placed
manager on the list.
My theory is that recruiters are hard-pressed and tend to work from a
fairly rigid formula. If you don't fit the mold exactly, you get cut
early. Managers, on the other hand, tend to be more flexible and
innovative--they also know exactly what the jobs they need to
fill are like. In many cases, the recruiter has only a vague idea.
|
| 410.4 | Another one from the UK | GOOGLY::KERRELL | If all else fails, lower your stds | Mon Nov 02 1987 10:08 | 6 |
| I've had simular experiences, I only refer 1st class people and they get
2nd class treatment. Makes you wonder how we all got here :-)
This is one of my top ten gripes!
Dave.
|
| 410.5 | From the hiring side | REGENT::EPSTEIN | Bruce Epstein | Mon Nov 02 1987 10:30 | 13 |
| Although I have had reasonable success with our personnel department�,
I have interviewed and hired people who had been told by other
recruiters that they "had no business interviewing for X job with their
experience." (I hired one in particular for X job, and will make
another offer as soon as the req gets signed.)
Hiring managers: if you don't get the right support from your
recruiter, tell someone!
Bruce
� I can speak here as both a buyer and seller - I was hired from
the outside and am now hiring for my department.
|
| 410.6 | And here's another one... | IRT::BONOMO | ANDY | Mon Nov 02 1987 11:01 | 18 |
| I have also had the exact problem you describe. I tried getting
my girlfriend hired by contacting a personnel rep directly. She
did get an interview and was told she will be called on a few
days for a followup interview with the hiring manager. That call
never came. I contacted the rep and asked her what's going on and
she gave me some crazy excuse about why she did not call her yet.
(However she was still very much interested in hiring my girlfriend,
enough to set up an interview with someone at a high level corporate
postion) Needless to say, that interview never came.
At this point I went to the bulletin board and jotted a list
of managers looking for secretaries and called them directly. Every
one of them thanked me for calling them and told me to immediately
send her resume due to the fact that they were having a hard time
with their personnel rep in getting prospects. The manager who
eventually hired her took time out to track me down and thank
me in person for referring her.
It sounds like its all over Digital
|
| 410.7 | and another.... | LANDO::TAG | Becky R. - Whirlwind Nightmare Life | Mon Nov 02 1987 11:47 | 32 |
|
It's an old old story, but I can't resist a chance to complain!
I have been trying to get a full time position in this company since
early summer. Sure, I'm a temp, but that doesn't make me any less
qualified than any other candidate for a secretarial position, does
it? In this company, I think it does! I have been working for
DEC since 1984 as a temp and I have seen the workings of every kind
of group you can come up with. I know this company well and I am
reluctant to look elsewhere for my career, but personnel is going
to force me to!
I have had a minimum of 7 interviews. Of those seven, one I made
my plans directly with the hiring manager. That interview was also
refered to me by a friend in that group. The hiring manager called
me the NEXT DAY to tell me that she had decided to go with another
candidate and WHY. That was the most consideration I have received
so far. All the others I haven't heard so much as a peep from the
hiring managers OR personnel. No "sorry, you aren't right for the
job" no "check back with us in a week to see" nothing! Not even
a form letter of rejection. Even that is better than nothing.
I keep getting advice from friends to call and/or send notes to
the recruiters I've spoken with to hound them for information.
Sure, I sent a note to them. Sure, I called and left messages.
Did I get any consideration? NO. I shouldn't be the one to hunt
them down! They need ME? Or am I assuming wrong?
I sit here, still a temp, still looking for a job, and feeling very
down on this company and it's personnel people.
|
| 410.8 | this can't be a coincedence, can it? | AXEL::FOLEY | This is my impressed look | Mon Nov 02 1987 12:30 | 25 |
|
As long as we are swapping war stories....
Over a year ago I interviewed for my current job. All the
interviews went very well until the last one with personnel. The
personnel person told me pretty much that my chances we slim, there
were alot of people trying for this job, many of which had a college
education, many of which were better qualified, etc.. I told her
straight out that I didn't care what anyone else was or is that
I was contacted by the manager to interview and that if he didn't
think that I was good enough to do the job I wouldn't be interviewing.
She got a little flustered and said "My, aren't we cocky?" and I
said "Sure, why not? I know how to do the job and I think it would
be advantagous to DEC and my career to take it if it's offered." She
didn't think so and it took 3 months to get me in here.. Fortunately,
I proved her wrong and that shows on my reviews.
Personnel tries to match people for the job. Unfortunately,
they are the ones with the least experience IN said job and seem
to have lots of input. Personally (no pun), I think that whole
aspect should be reviewed. I'm not out to purge personnel but some
practices, as evidenced by the many notes here, should be looked
into..
mike
|
| 410.10 | | BEOWLF::RIEU | You have my WORD on it! | Mon Nov 02 1987 13:59 | 4 |
| Temps aren't the only ones who aren't contacted about the results
of an interview. DEC managers are notorious for their lack of common
courtesy in this area.
Denny
|
| 410.11 | Another sad story | SSDEVO::WILKINS | Trust me, I know what I'm doing | Mon Nov 02 1987 14:16 | 23 |
| Eight years ago Digital had and ad in Computerworld for staff for
the new telephone support center in Colorado Springs that was just
getting going. I thought it sounded right up my alley so I called
the 800 number in the ad (to greater Maynard). They said send a
resume. I did. I waited. Nothing. Called again. Said send a resume.
I did. Waited. Nothing. This repeated over and over again for eight
weeks with the flunky on the phone saying they had never heard of
me, "send a resume". Finally I got a personnel manager that happened
to be covering the phones in an emergency and said "you sound like
just what they are looking for, I'll have the hiring manager call
you". Two hours later I got the call. Four days later I had flown
to Colorado for an interview and had an offer in hand.
When I moved from the CSC to engineering two years ago I went through
personnel but I hand walked everything. From sitting on the recruiter's
desk until they would set up interviews to calling and harassing
them until they got the offer processed. The one thing they did
right was they advised me to contact the hiring manager directly
and sell myself prior to the interview to insure I was not screened
out for some dumb reason.
Dick
|
| 410.12 | I'm embarrassed to speak of it | BLITZN::LITASI | Sherry Litasi | Mon Nov 02 1987 15:02 | 29 |
|
Since May I have been trying to get my brother hired at the CSC
in Colorado Springs. I sent some mail to a guy who advertised in
the Jobs notes for Language Support (my brother is a Pascal Guru)
and he send send a resume. I did. My brother was interviewed but
nothing happened. He called his recruiter every week. Phone calls
were not returned and when he did get him the answer was the job
was frozen. I called to check and heard the job was frozen.
Charlie (my brother) turned down a job still hoping for CSC to come
thru. Finally in September I stopped by personnel and asked to
see the recruiter. He was gone, permanently, from one day to the
next. The secretary did some terrific detective work to find a
name of someone he had talked to and suggested he send in another
resume. I sent it to the secretary and within about a week Charlie
had a telephone interview for VMS support (not his specialty) and
about 2 weeks ago got a rejection notice for VMS support... well
that's some acknowledgement.
I'd still like to know when the original job will thaw out. Mean-
while, I have suggested Charlie give up on DEC and go elsewhere.
It makes me sick to think of how indifferently he was treated and
how nothing would have happened if I had not physically been there
to ask. I get the feeling that most, if not all, new graduates
get this kind of run around. What is really amazing is that I was
just hired 6 months ago with very little hassle. I guess I was
a round peg for a round hole. It's really embarrassing to work
for a corporation so terrific in other ways, yet so inadequate in
such a visible area.
|
| 410.13 | | DFLAT::DICKSON | Network Design tools | Mon Nov 02 1987 15:27 | 5 |
| In Robert Townsend's book, "Up the Organization" (still a good book on how
to run a company, many years later), he has a couple pages on each issue
that might come up. In the section on handling personnel, his advice
is:
"Fire the Personnel department."
|
| 410.14 | And then there were the good old days. | SSDEVO::EKHOLM | | Mon Nov 02 1987 23:07 | 10 |
| In 1973 Digital was using outside recruiters to screen the people
answering newspaper adds. The recruiter would talk to the person
and if he felt they where qualified, set up a second interview with
several managers,superviors that where touring the country looking
for good people. I think the outside recruiters where paid a bonus
based on how many people got hired. The outside recruiters where
technical people and did not waste time finding out what you knew.
At that time Digital was growing at 25-35% a year. Now we seem to
be growing at that same rate. And who said there where no good old
days. Maybe there is a lesson in this bit of history.
|
| 410.15 | Personnel??Where are you?? | ODDSON::BOURNE | Dyslexia Lures KO! | Wed Nov 04 1987 04:04 | 22 |
| I am sickened by the inability of "personnel" to handle the simple
task of "recruiting".
In the UK we were bombarded with mail , posters etc about the new
recruitment campaign called "DEC Steps" about 6 months ago.
I had a friend who was interested in a Field service engineers job
and I obtained the relevant application form for him which he filled
in and returned within days. Then after ringing every week , he
finally received a "hold" letter AFTER 5 MONTHS!!!! It is only common
courtesy to reply to applications in as short a time as possible.
I thought it was just a Newmarket problem but after reading this
note it would appear to be widespread and unless personnel get their
act together it is going to be impossible to recruit the right sort
of people. I for one will think twice before subjecting any more
of my friends to the insulting behaviour that DEC has subjected
my friend to.
Jim
(Whose opinions of personnel are censored in the interests of job
retention)
|
| 410.16 | A lot of good people won't wait... | CIMNET::PSMITH | Peter H. Smith,MET-2/E2,291-7689 | Wed Nov 04 1987 09:39 | 44 |
| If our growth rate is really the same, then I would guess at first
glance that Personnel were trying to be "selective". But if that's the
case, they're doing exactly the opposite of what they should. I would
guess that a lot of excellent people might not want to wait five months
to find a job, or might not be able to ( have a mortgage to pay ). We
probably lose quite a few to our competitors. Only the ones who
already own "Work Digital or Die" license plates will wait it out.
It's a good thing we have such a good environment, and keep telling our
freinds in other companies about it. Otherwise we'd be up a creek. If
we don't get our act together, we could be there anyway. It's sad to
hear that Personnel can so frustrate a temp who wants to work here that
she is actually thinking of going somewhere else. That sounds like a
real bummer; you know where you want to work, and you've proven your
worth, yet it appears that your employer isn't willing to commit to
keeping you around. Is this one of the signs of becoming a "large"
company?
My own "personal" war story:
I started working here on June 18, 1984, as a result of an interview
which was set up through a freind in the company. I had also sent my
resume to a recruiter. In September, 1984, three months after I had
started, I received a letter at my home address. It started out
something like: "Thank you for your interest in Digital. There are
currently no positions available, but we will keep your resume on
file..."
I've had many a good laugh about that letter, but it also makes me
think. Could part of the problem be lack of communication between
Personnel and hiring managers? Coming in from the outside, I had
assumed that when I was hired my resume would drop out of circulation.
But apparantly it did its part to clog up the system for three months.
Are there any ties between the employee database and the Personnel
files? Can we get rid of the old resumes so that we can see the new
ones and respond to them?
Also, I've noticed that most managers are aware of the problems with
hiring through Personnel, so they try to circumvent them. This may
work, but is it a good long-term plan? Personnel can't improve if
they're no longer in the loop. Maybe they need more practice hiring
people, so that they can learn what a good match is :-). If managers
talked loud and long with Personnel, rather than giving up and going it
on their own, wouldn't things improve?
|
| 410.17 | They're all in a meeting for the rest of the year... | DPDMAI::RESENDEP | Topeka is in Texas | Wed Nov 04 1987 10:08 | 38 |
| RE: .-1
> In September, 1984, three months after I had
> started, I received a letter at my home address. It started out
> something like: "Thank you for your interest in Digital. There are
> currently no positions available, but we will keep your resume on
> file..."
I can even beat that story. In April, 1987, I had been an employee
of Digital for 9 years, and my husband for six years. We both
interviewed for jobs in the New England area. About *three months*
after those interviews, Personnel sent us *each* one of the "Thank
you for your interest in Digital, don't call us, we'll call you"
letters! We considered framing them and hanging them in our respective
offices as a tangible tribute to the quality of our Personnel organization!
> If managers
> talked loud and long with Personnel, rather than giving up and going it
> on their own, wouldn't things improve?
I was a software unit manager in the field for four years, and fought
this problem. During that time I worked with exactly *one* employee
of the Personnel organization who gave me what I considered reasonable
responsiveness. I tried everything I could possibly think of:
asking for better service, working with them as a team, escalating
to my management (who was just as frustrated with them as I was),
you_name_it_I_tried_it. The response was always "We need more people",
"We're overworked", and their favorite line "That isn't our job."
My perception was (and still is) that they seem to spend an inordinate
amount of time in meetings. I don't know what they meet about,
I just know that when you need service that's always why you can't
get it. When I was a manager, I used the only stick I had: straight
zeros on the Personnel Satisfaction Survey, every year. It did
no good whatsoever except to make me feel a little better.
Pat
whose true feelings about Personnel are also censored in the interest
of salary continuation.
|
| 410.18 | HEAD COUNT my foot | MYVAX::ROBERUC | 101010 | Wed Nov 04 1987 10:39 | 18 |
| I was originally interviewed by DEC in June '85.
The day I was out, news just came over the tube that the Engineering head count
quota for open reqs for that year had been hit.
I hung in there and was finally hired in Feb '86 by the group that wanted me.
The rules were bent slightly because I had been worked for 6 months in a couple
of hacking/electronic sweat shops on account of wanting to eat and pay rent
(luxury items, I know). The rule about DEC new college hires being only 6
months (or whatever) out of school was over looked... heaven knows that if they
hadn't, I'd have probably never been hired. All because DEC policies kept me
from being hired for 8 months. I hope DEC has changed how the ratio of open
college reqs being interviewed to total head count. But the entire experience
made me wonder if DEC isn't so unlike IBM in having policies that are more
beneficial to the corporation than to the individual.
Rich Oberuc
|
| 410.19 | Fault the system, not the folks | TLE::SAVAGE | Neil, @Spit Brook | Wed Nov 04 1987 10:53 | 12 |
| Lest this turn into a Personnel-bashing note (waddaya mean, it aready
has?), I will point out that job recruitment is just one of the many
functions performed by Personnel people. It happens to the be the
worst, but there's no science to it, and the art doesn't seem to be
taught in house. Where are the courses in job recruitment that we can
send our people too? And are these courses any good?
I agree that the intuitively expedient thing to do--filter out the
unhireable job applicants first--is wrong way round. But be careful
not to fault the people who do this; they are simply doing what they
believe is expected of them. And other computer companies are no
better at it than we are.
|
| 410.20 | So who's working on fixing the system? | VCQUAL::THOMPSON | Noter at large | Wed Nov 04 1987 11:06 | 9 |
| RE: .19 Sure personal as a department does more then recruit but
what else do recruiters do?
I do agree that it's the system that's at fault. I don't see anyone
in personal interested in fixing the system though. It hasn't changed
in the 13 years I've had contact (from inside and outside) with
it.
Alfred
|
| 410.21 | More "Over screening" woes | GENIE::LUSTMAN | | Wed Nov 04 1987 11:44 | 23 |
| I've also been frustrated by personnel.
It seems that sending resume's in response to job req's should
be simple matter of fowarding to the hiring manager. In my case
I was applying for an open req that was the for my current job code.
There should be no "screening" involved. My resume nver got to
the hiring manager until I sent it to him personally.
I interviewed and received an offer within the week.
We have recently relocated and my wife's commute is now very long.
I'm trying to get her a position in DEC. Sending resume's to
recruiters has gotten us no where. I know I'm biased but there
are reqs in the jobs book that have been open for months that she
is very qualified for (if not overqualified) but no interviews in
5 months.
Many of us feel that DEC is a great place to work and many of us
have spouses,brothers,friends etc who work in less desirable companies.
I can imagine that the volume of personal referrals to recruites
is endless. I would guess that many just get trashed.
Is getting an interview an random chance process ?
|
| 410.22 | I don't go thru personnel - ever | NEWPRT::BARTH | Karl - studying aeroporcine topics | Wed Nov 04 1987 13:23 | 18 |
| RE: Sending resumes to personnel
I've referred lots of people to Digital for job opportunities. Some even
get hired. But I have NEVER told them to send their resumes/cv's to the
personnel folks. The stuff always goes DIRECTLY to the hiring manager.
And in every case they get appropriate consideration. Some managers are
better than others about returning phone calls, sending a letter, etc.
But usually I can shame them into some form of acknowledging receipt
and communication with the candidate.
I don't have any bad experiences with personnel on this count. That's
because they aren't in the loop until after the manager has made some
sort of go/nogo decision.
FYI,
K.
|
| 410.23 | There are other ways... | YUPPIE::COLE | I survived B$ST, I think..... | Wed Nov 04 1987 13:40 | 8 |
| FWIW, Southern Area Sales and SWS has taken the approach of letting
"organization" people do the recruiting, letters, filtering, etc. A senior
sales exec, and an ex-USWM get all resumes, leads, etc., and do phone call
qualifications, job matching, "DCUWCU" letters, req cutting, setting up
nose-to-nose interviews with hiring managers, and FINALLY, if all works out,
getting Personnel involved for the actual hiring. Personnel probably hasn't
contributed 10% of the current resumes on file. I have told any possible
candidate to send resumes to ME and I will get them to these folks!
|
| 410.24 | | IND::BOWERS | Count Zero Interrupt | Wed Nov 04 1987 13:59 | 7 |
| re .19;
Why not bash personnel a bit. It has been my experience that most
staff departments are like weeds - they grow rapidly, consume lots
of resources and need to be cut back occasionally.
-dave
|
| 410.25 | Go round the system; don't use it | SMAUG::GARROD | Reagan's brain was diverted to the contras | Wed Nov 04 1987 14:11 | 23 |
| SET CYNIC/STATE=ON
It's not what you know but who you know that counts!
A manager is far more likely to bring in a candidate for interview
if somebody has recommended them than if some personel junkie drops
a resume on a desk. When a friend or aquaintance asks me about jobs
at Digital I tend to informally interview them first. If I think
they would be a good match for an opening that I know of I'll
personally give the resume to the manager and send a mail message
with an objective recommendation (ie I put my arse on the line).
In all cases that person has been brought in for interview.
If I'm so so about somebody but think they may fit somewhere I'll
take the resume to personel. 9-1 it'll get filed in the round file
cabinet (hard to compete with all those personel recommendations
being given directly to managers), but on the other hand something
may come of it.
Bottom line is that you're always better off end running the system
than trying to work within it. The system is there solely to slow
things down.
Just my personal opinion...
|
| 410.26 | 's not my yob... | DPDMAI::RESENDEP | Topeka is in Texas | Wed Nov 04 1987 15:24 | 8 |
| > Sure personal as a department does more then recruit but
> what else do recruiters do?
I actually had a recruiter tell me once that sending me applicants
for an opening I had wasn't his job!
Pat
|
| 410.27 | Basic Interviewing Skills Workshop helped me | DENTON::AMARTIN | Alan H. Martin | Wed Nov 04 1987 18:58 | 21 |
| Re .19:
The Basic Interviewing Skills Workshop (a Central Engineering Development
Programs course) covers these topics (among others):
* The employment process at Digital.
* Creating a job requisition.
* Applicant sourcing strategies.
* Deciding which job applicants to interview.
* How to conduct a job interview.
* How to avoid EEO/AA illegal questions and procedures.
* How to decide which applicant to hire.
* How to make an offer.
I've taken this course, and found the knowledge I gained from it to be
quite helpful in conducting interviews. I've never written a req or
made an offer, but I suspect that the material would help if I was involved
in such activities.
If you want to take a look at the materials, stop by my office.
/AHM
|
| 410.28 | | LEC::CORNE | Cancer Cures Smoking | Thu Nov 05 1987 10:40 | 7 |
| The title of this note is "Am I the only one?". Obviously not....
Is anything likely to happen as a result of the 28 replies so far?
Jc
(Yes, we see the same thing here in Reading)
|
| 410.29 | | GENRAL::BANKS | David Banks -- N0ION | Thu Nov 05 1987 15:08 | 15 |
| A friend of mine, who had worked for me some years ago and came with
my personal recommendation, was interviewed for job in ZKO. They
indicated that an offer was forthcoming, but it got held up... in
Personnel.
He had an offer outstanding from another company and he was forced to
accept it rather than risk not getting a job at all because Digital was
too slow in getting their offer to him. Because of that, we lost an
outstanding person.
In all fairness, though, I found one recruiter here in CXO who bends
over backwards to help get things moving. I guess she's the exception
that proves the rule :-)
- David
|
| 410.31 | Just what we needed to hear | GLORIA::HADDAD | | Thu Nov 05 1987 19:16 | 20 |
| re: .30
Bill:
Perhaps when you cool down you'd like to give the readers some
constructive feedback on how to approach the problem and make some
helpful suggestions on what can be done to improve the situation.
Personal opinion is that you've struck a severe blow to an already
tainted stereotype by choosing to mouth off with profanity and then
(the kicker) using this NOTES file as an advertising aid. Pretty
cute, uncalled for, unwanted, and embarrassing.
I'm requesting that this (410.30) be deleted by the Moderator(s).
Although I'm *very* interested in hearing the "other" side, your
recuiting tactics and lack of professionalism are more disturbing
than any of the horrors stories I could have come up with on my
own.
Steve.
|
| 410.32 | case of the deleted note?? | AXEL::FOLEY | Rebelious Clueious withoutious | Thu Nov 05 1987 20:23 | 7 |
|
RE: .31
Huh?????? Musta been someone else cuz I see nothing wrong with
.30
mike
|
| 410.33 | 410.30 has been deleted | ADVLSI::HADDAD | | Fri Nov 06 1987 06:39 | 5 |
| Re: The missing .30
The author deleted the note after reading my reply.
Case *closed*.
|
| 410.34 | Author self-discipline | GOOGLY::KERRELL | shake well before use | Fri Nov 06 1987 09:05 | 9 |
| re .33:
> The author deleted the note after reading my reply.
In which case there would not be another .30 note as your note was .31
Reply numbers are not reused after deletion unless it is the last reply to
the topic that is deleted.
Dave.
|
| 410.35 | Over-Zealous Screening | DELNI::JONG | Steve Jong/NaC Pubs | Fri Nov 06 1987 16:03 | 11 |
| Given the recent success of Digital, I'm sure there's a mountain
of paperwork on every desk in Personnel. Given that people often
go around Personnel directly to the hiring manager, it's not surprising
that communications break down, and Personnel doesn't know the person
was hired. (It's understandable, but it strikes outsiders as colossal
arrogance; I know that from experience.)
What does surprise and concern me is the number of stories here
in which Personnel screened out people that hiring managers not
only were interested in, but actually hired. *That* is a serious
problem.
|
| 410.36 | OK.....Enough! | BUSY::KLEINBERGER | Have a MAXCIMum Day! | Sat Nov 07 1987 17:53 | 28 |
| <<< HUMAN::WRKD$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
-< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note XXX OK.....Enough! No replies
CHUCKL::LMARTIN 21 lines 7-NOV-1987 14:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<It's easy to throw stones from a safe distance>
Who answering this topic has ever BEEN a recruiter in an employment
department in industry??
I will give you my point of reference: I am currently a new
recruiter with DEC, having been a contract recruiter for several
months before going direct.
My question is whether the energy/anger is over misunderstanding
the system or having very different expectations over WHAT should
happen and WHEN.
After three other computer companies and similar volume hiring,
I feel that DEC does respond to applicants. Sending a resume does
not constitute a guarantee that you will get a job the first (or
the tenth) time you apply.
Have any of you really sat down with your recruiter and talked (isn't
that the Digital way) or it is just more fun this way??
|
| 410.37 | Sorry, it's not an expectation problem. | SRFSUP::MCCARTHY | Larry McCarthy, LAO | Sat Nov 07 1987 19:32 | 66 |
| > Who answering this topic has ever BEEN a recruiter in an employment
> department in industry??
Reply .30 was from someone claiming to be a 10-year veteran of
recruiting with Digital. Although the note has since been deleted (by
the author, I understand) you can get a sense of its contents from
reading .31, which replied to .30.
> My question is whether the energy/anger is over misunderstanding
> the system or having very different expectations over WHAT should
> happen and WHEN.
Well, that may be true in some cases, but it certainly isn't in all
(or even most) of the cases related here.
> After three other computer companies and similar volume hiring,
> I feel that DEC does respond to applicants. Sending a resume does
> not constitute a guarantee that you will get a job the first (or
> the tenth) time you apply.
I think everybody understands that. What many of the replies have
related is that recruiters representing Digital (permanent or contract)
don't even let you know that you CAN'T have a job at Digital (you know,
the Don't Call Us, We'll Call You letter).
> Have any of you really sat down with your recruiter and talked (isn't
> that the Digital way) or it is just more fun this way??
I have talked to a recruiter. I was trying to get transferred from
Digital Canada to Digital in the U.S. I went through channels like a
good do-bee and talked to a recruiter. Virtually every bad thing that
has been related here happened to me too, so I won't bore anyone with
relating it.
In all modesty, I wasn't that hard to place. I'd won two SWS
Excellence Awards in Canada, (and have since won another here)
and I was looking for a position in SWS. I didn't try to skip
up a job level or anything. I didn't require Digital to buy my house,
just pay for the movers for the relocation. I'm a U.S. citizen, so there
weren't any visa hassles. And no headhunter fees to pay either.
After three months of being jerked around, I gave up. Finally, to get
to the U.S., I had to leave Digital and go to work for another company
By the way, this is a high-tech industry company too, and their
personnel department made me an offer one week after the interview.
Luckily for me, the District Personnel Manager (in Canada) marked on
my exit interview paperwork "Consider for rehire", as he understood that
it wasn't that I wanted to leave Digital, just Canada. He also
understood that it was his organization (in the U.S.) that dropped the
ball.
When I "re-upped", I avoided the personnel department like the plague.
From the moment that I let one hiring manager (not even the one who
finally hired me) know that I was interested in returning until my
(re-)start date was set about two weeks.
I attribute this speedy turnaround to the fact that Personnel was not
involved.
Moral : Please do refer your friends, collegues and relatives to
a hiring manager if you think that they are the kind of
quality people that are typical of Digital. Refer your enemies
to Personnel.
- Larry
|
| 410.38 | Sorry, UNOFFICAL > OFFICIAL | CANYON::ADKINS | When it rains, it floods | Sun Nov 08 1987 14:23 | 29 |
| It may be the system, it may be the people, but whatever it is,
it has problems.
Having reached the point in my last position that I wanted OUT,
I started to leave DEC. I had some good friends contact me and say
"It's the situation, not the company. Try a transfer." So, I gave
it a shot.
Going through 'channels' was very frustrating. I got the names and
numbers of recruiters in the areas of interest and started contacting
them. The Pesonnel person at my current location stated fairly simply
that they would not relocate me and basicaly would not talk to me.
Being in Software as a Specialist III, I couldn't find out what
jobs in other departments I would be elgible for. (E10=D43, that's
interesting)
I was ready to throw in the towel again and stubled across JOBS.
I found a request from my current UM describing my background to
a T. I sent the resume, got called, interviewed and was made an
offer. My situation here is so much better than the one I left.
I'm glad I stuck it through, but DEC really does need to rework
the hiring/transfer side of things.
Jim
PS - I also got a 'No Thanks' letter from Personnel 4 days after
I'd started working for DEC. My UM chuckled and told me to toss
it.
|
| 410.39 | ->A Personal War Story<- | FIDDLE::LAVOIE | | Mon Nov 09 1987 09:39 | 20 |
| When I decided to leave my last position because I was basically
unhappy it wasn't easy. Personnel took my resume and said they
would circulate it. I didn't even get an interview. I started looking
for alternatives as to how I could find out hiring managers names.
There is a system calles TESS which gives you the entire requisiton
including the hiring managers name and the status whether it be
interview or pending or whatever. It made it alot easier to send
a copy of my resume to both the hiring manager and the personnel
recruiter. I found out that it is alot easier to avoid personnel
unfortunately they were not helpful to me.
On a side note: Personnel had me come down one afternoon from MLO
to MRO(?) to tell me the position was already filled. This could
have been done by phone or over the net. I was so mad, they don't
understand that as a wage Class 2 you have to make up that time
or use sick/vacation time to get away from your job.
Debbi
|
| 410.40 | What's unreasonable here? | VCQUAL::THOMPSON | Noter at large | Mon Nov 09 1987 10:31 | 68 |
| RE: Expectations. I'm ready to give my story now. The lines about
expectations got me going.
I have one good story first. I sent a resume up to MKO a few years
ago. Personnel saw the word 'RSTS' on it and took it to the RSTS
development group right away. I got a great job that way. Good things
do happen some times.
Now for expectations not lived up to. Feel free to let me know if
any of these where unreasonable.
I expect recruiters to tell me the truth. If they are unsure, they
should find out. When I was offered a job at DEC 5+ years ago I
asked if my previous service (almost 2 years that I'd worked for
DEC before) would count for anything. Yes, I was told, they'll
count towards pension. This is/was not true as every personnel
person I've talked to since has told me. Someone is lying. Should
I expect that?
I expect personnel to forward resumes on behalf of employees who
are looking for a new job. This is especially true when said
employee gives personnel a resume and a list of jobs that he is
interested in (including req. numbers).
The first time I was with DEC I explained to personnel that I
wanted to move to New England. I gave them a number of open jobs
that I was interested in. I got the jobs from a JOBS book that
someone in the Mill got for me. It seems that the tiny NYC (only
slightly more business then Canada) office didn't get copies of
the JOBS book. A week or two latter I called personnel and explained
that I was going to be in New Hampshire on vacation and that I'd
really appreciate it if they could get me some interviews. Nothing.
I called again from NH. Nothing. Finally after a number of months
of nothing I gave in to a headhunter and went on an outside interview
(another computer company). After I gave my notice personnel sent
me a memo saying that they had mailed my resume to NH. Should I
have expected it to take three months to mail a resume interoffice
mail?
I expect that someone (especially from the outside) who talks to
a recruiter will get some kind of a response. Even a rejection
letter. I'm still waiting for my wife to get a response from any
of the several times she's contacted DEC. BTW, it's too late to
ever expect her to come to work for DEC. Personnel attitudes and
mistreatment have guaranteed that.
One thing I'd like to see is Maynard personnel passing some of the
huge amount of resumes it must get around to field offices. When
I was first out of college I sent DEC a resume in Maynard. I got
a nice "we don't have anything for you" letter. Fine but years later
a district SWS manager told me that if Maynard had send him (my
local to where I lived SWS office) that resume I would at least
have gotten an interview. Maynard never sent them resumes though.
Perhaps that's not a reasonable expectation?
I expect personnel to hand offer letters in a timely basis. On the
other hand, the two times I've changed jobs with in DEC I received
my offer letter the week *after* I started. And I gave the old groups
2-5 weeks before joining the new group.
I got my latest job in spite of personnel. I knew the hiring manager
and we worked out an interview and verbal offer in less then half
a week after I approached him. He finally had to hand carry some
of the paper work for signatures because it kept getting stuck
and 'lost' in personnel. Took weeks.
Alfred
|
| 410.41 | | TIGER::MORRISON | Bob M. LMO2/P41 296-5357 | Mon Nov 09 1987 15:31 | 11 |
| < Note 410.39 by FIDDLE::LAVOIE >
> have been done by phone or over the net. I was so mad, they don't
> understand that as a wage Class 2 you have to make up that time
> or use sick/vacation time to get away from your job.
That's strange, when I was WC 2 in 1978-80 I went on several interviews on
company time. I thought this was a corporate policy. No matter who pays for
the time and travel, it doesn't make sense to be interviewed for a job that
doesn't exist, except that you know your way around that plant in case another
job comes up.
|
| 410.42 | How do I access TESS? | VAXWRK::TCHEN | | Mon Nov 09 1987 16:25 | 7 |
| re .39 There is a system called TESS which gives you the entire
requisition ..
How does one access TESS?
Thanks,
-Weimin Tchen
|
| 410.43 | Could this topic sustain a new conference? | SDSVAX::SWEENEY | Patrick Sweeney | Mon Nov 09 1987 20:57 | 5 |
| Is there enough interest to sustain a "PERSONNEL" or
"HIRING-AND-FIRING" VAX Notes Conference? I offer the suggestion
and not the disk space to host it.
Not your moderator
|
| 410.44 | It's More Fun to Make 'Em Wait? | DELNI::JONG | Steve Jong/NaC Pubs | Mon Nov 09 1987 22:48 | 9 |
| [Re: .40]: Previously, I offered an observation that these stories
suggested a serious problem with personnel. Now I see a second
problem. Offers that take several weeks to go out? What if the
applicant is actually interviewing at several companies? What if
the applicant is faced with the choice of a job offer from X, Inc.,
and *maybe* a job offer from Digital? A bird in the hand is worth
two in the bush. If I were a manager, and lost a prospect because
personnel took several weeks to get an offer out, I'd scream from
here to Maynard.
|
| 410.45 | "Behind every tree are more tree's." | DIEHRD::MAHLER | New and Improved... | Tue Nov 10 1987 10:59 | 400 |
|
Are you part of the Problem?...
I've been reading entries to this note with great
interest, by automatic extraction, and am slightly taken by
the arrogant tone of this entire topic. There are many ways
to express your discontent with people or groups but also be
open to hearing "from the other side". Many of you have
raised valid points, and gripes, about the Personnel
organization, however, all I see is alot of complaining about
the situation with no suggested resolution[s]. There is no
way that the status of the situation will be changed if
everyone is so closed to trying to help one another within
the company. There are few people in DIGITAL who would NOT
listen to your views about an idea you have to help things
work smoother, quicker or just more friendly, and if you ever
met someone who wouldn't, it isn't to far to put footprints
under another "open door". As I see it, there is a problem
with Personnel-Manager Communication.
...Or part of the Solution?
Although I am not sure of the position of everyone who
reads this file, I can assure you that representatives from
Personnel, as well as most others, do and this file can
become an excellent ground-work for making "it happen".
However, this can only happen when everyone who participates
looks more towards a compromise "win-win" situation than a
list of gripes for each other to read. Basically, this is
getting no where very fast. Go ahead, enter notes and horror
stories [misery loves company right?] about how Personnel
screwed you out of a job that the manager WANTED you for, or,
worse, that you DESERVED. After all your credentials matched
the job description, right? That does NOT mean you should get
the job. Perhaps it was the *manager* who was not persistent
enough to expedite the offer. Perhaps he/she held the same
views as you all do and decided that contacting Personnel was
a waste of time. Most likely, any problem you have had with
Personnel was a breakdown of communication between the
recruiter and the hiring manager.
"Every bunch has a bad apple." - I. Newton
When you drive into a toll booth on the Mass Pike and
there are several collectors, there is a good chance that one
will say "Have a nice day!" and others may not. You MAY pull
into that particular stall, you may not. When you interview
for a job, you MAY have the wonderful pleasure of dealing
with an honest and down-to earth individual during
recruitment, you may not. Most of you seem to have not and I
suspect that we hear mostly negative comments since
frustration can lead to motivation. Clearly i'm not saying
that every story elaborated upon is just "noise" but that
there are ways of circumvention. Some of you have found one
way; to avoid personnel altogether and go straight to the
hiring manager with regards to a requisition. Avoidance works
some of the time, but it's like ignoring a hard to start
motor. Sooner or later, it's going to fail and you'll be
inconvenienced sometime later on down the road. Some have
taken to finding another job where they are better "taken
care of". Your choice, but you may have passed up a golden
opportunity, the choice is indeed yours, but the best things
in life are usually the hardest to obtain. Finally, many
people, {like Peter Smith} see a niche for Personnel and
would like to see ways that Personnel can be utilized more
efficiently and are learning to WORK WITH [not in SPITE of]
Personnel, whether it's an occasional prod or a lunch date.
It's unfortunate that, most of you, have chosen to firebomb
an entire tree because of the visibility of all those rotten
apples on the ground [it's also unfortunate that, at least, a
couple of you have not been patient with Bill's entry into
this topic. It must've taken great courage to venture into
this "arena of death" which may have provoked Bill into an
abusive state while here. Sheesh, with all the mud-slinging
who wouldn't get a little hot around the collar. Personally,
I hope Bill comes back to offer us a point of view that, as
one of the more visible recruiters within DIGITAL, is
EXTREMELY valuable and influential].
"This child can't walk, so let's leave it in the street."
---------------------------------------------------------
� "John J. Mitchell 297-5349 MRO3-3/N17" 44 lines 1-NOV-1987 17:20
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�.
�.
�.
�
�We D E S P E R A T E L Y need them in personnel.
Actually, this statement is VERY true. There are very few
recruiters within DIGITAL who are gifted in the "arts" and
Personnel can always use more talent. Now, tell me an
organization where this is not true.
�================================================================================
�Note 410.3 Am I the only one? 3 of 40
�TLE::SAVAGE "Neil, @Spit Brook" 15 lines 2-NOV-1987 10:05
� -< Count me in too >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
.
.
� The tactic that got me my job involved taking the names of writing
� technical advisors off the back of a Middlesex Community College
� brochure. The person I contacted happened to be the highest placed
� manager on the list.
Good for you Neil! You've beaten "the system" and applied
creativity in removing a block in the road. You probably
scored points with the manager by doing this since it shows
you can work situations that, at first, seem to be an
impasse.
� My theory is that recruiters are hard-pressed and tend to work from a
� fairly rigid formula. If you don't fit the mold exactly, you get cut
� early. Managers, on the other hand, tend to be more flexible and
� innovative--they also know exactly what the jobs they need to
� fill are like. In many cases, the recruiter has only a vague idea.
Exactly. The hiring manager, it seems, in this instance
did not relate to his recruiter the needs of the group from
an individual. You'll find the better recruiters try to learn
the technical aspects of the groups he/she is recruiting for
so they can communicate with managers to find out the exact
needs of the group. You'll also find some managers take the
time to express a "wreck" in more concise terms. Each have to
give a little.
�================================================================================
�Note 410.5 Am I the only one? 5 of 40
�REGENT::EPSTEIN "Bruce Epstein" 13 lines 2-NOV-1987 10:30
� -< From the hiring side >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
.
.
� Hiring managers: if you don't get the right support from your
� recruiter, tell someone!
Again, managers should work WITH Personnel and communicate.
�================================================================================
�Note 410.14 Am I the only one? 14 of 40
�SSDEVO::EKHOLM 10 lines 2-NOV-1987 23:07
� -< And then there were the good old days. >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
� In 1973 Digital was using outside recruiters to screen the people
� answering newspaper adds. The recruiter would talk to the person
� and if he felt they where qualified, set up a second interview with
� several managers,superviors that where touring the country looking
� for good people. I think the outside recruiters where paid a bonus
� based on how many people got hired. The outside recruiters where
� technical people and did not waste time finding out what you knew.
� At that time Digital was growing at 25-35% a year. Now we seem to
� be growing at that same rate. And who said there where no good old
� days. Maybe there is a lesson in this bit of history.
Many managers still use headhunters for external hiring.
�================================================================================
�Note 410.19 Am I the only one? 19 of 40
�TLE::SAVAGE "Neil, @Spit Brook" 12 lines 4-NOV-1987 10:53
� -< Fault the system, not the folks >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
.
.
� But be careful not to fault the people who do this; they are
� simply doing what they believe is expected of them. And other
� computer companies are no better at it than we are.
Amen Neil!
�================================================================================
�Note 410.20 Am I the only one? 20 of 40
�VCQUAL::THOMPSON "Noter at large" 9 lines 4-NOV-1987 11:06
� -< So who's working on fixing the system? >-
Are you?
�================================================================================
�Note 410.21 Am I the only one? 21 of 40
�GENIE::LUSTMAN 23 lines 4-NOV-1987 11:44
� -< More "Over screening" woes >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
.
� Sending resume's to recruiters has gotten us no where. I know
� I'm biased but there are reqs in the jobs book that have been open
� for months that she is very qualified for (if not overqualified) but
� no interviews in 5 months.
You'd be surprised at the number of resume's recruiters
throw away. No, it's not because the person recommended is a
relative, but because the resume if very poorly done and the
recruiter can NOT spend the time to look through the resume
to pick out keywords of exerience. I've seen some resum�'s
thrown around when I did some interviewing and some of them
were barely readable in looking for experience and MANY were
ugly. Yes, it matters, as superficial as it seems.
� Is getting an interview an random chance process ?
No, but it can be a RIGHT TIME AND PLACE situation. Life
you know. More often it's a research process that allows you
to be at the right place at the right time.
�================================================================================
�Note 410.25 Am I the only one? 25 of 40
�SMAUG::GARROD "Reagan's brain was diverted to the contras" 23 lines 4-NOV-1987 14:11
� -< Go round the system; don't use it >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
� SET CYNIC/STATE=ON
�
� It's not what you know but who you know that counts!
When you go to a restaurant, do you complain to the bus boy
about bad service?
�================================================================================
�Note 410.31 Am I the only one? 31 of 40
�GLORIA::HADDAD 20 lines 5-NOV-1987 19:16
� -< Just what we needed to hear >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
� re: .30
�
� Bill:
�
� Perhaps when you cool down you'd like to give the readers some
� constructive feedback on how to approach the problem and make some
� helpful suggestions on what can be done to improve the situation.
Sure Bill, come on in, they're "waiting for you."
� Personal opinion is that you've struck a severe blow to an already
� tainted stereotype by choosing to mouth off with profanity and then
� (the kicker) using this NOTES file as an advertising aid. Pretty
� cute, uncalled for, unwanted, and embarrassing.
Yeah, Bill, you've got alot of nerve using DIGITAL
resources to "advertise" that you are looking to help others
in the company find what they are looking for in a career.
Don't you know that recruiters should never publicly announce
that they are available? We don't want your kind around here
so get back in your isolation tank before something good
happens. Recruiter scum.
.
.
.
�================================================================================
�Note 410.35 Am I the only one? 35 of 40
�DELNI::JONG "Steve Jong/NaC Pubs" 11 lines 6-NOV-1987 16:03
� -< Over-Zealous Screening >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
.
.
�
� What does surprise and concern me is the number of stories here
� in which Personnel screened out people that hiring managers not
� only were interested in, but actually hired. *That* is a serious
� problem.
Steve, it's not really suprising, just another form of
communication breakdown.
�================================================================================
�Note XXX OK.....Enough! No replies
�CHUCKL::LMARTIN 21 lines 7-NOV-1987 14:49
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
.
.
�
� Have any of you really sat down with your recruiter and talked (isn't
� that the Digital way) or it is just more fun this way??
More fun? Maybe. Doesn't LOOK like fun. Maybe it's just safer
than personal confrontation.
�================================================================================
�Note 410.37 Am I the only one? 37 of 40
�SRFSUP::MCCARTHY "Larry McCarthy, LAO" 66 lines 7-NOV-1987 19:32
� -< Sorry, it's not an expectation problem. >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�> Who answering this topic has ever BEEN a recruiter in an employment
�> department in industry??
�
� Reply .30 was from someone claiming to be a 10-year veteran of
�recruiting with Digital. Although the note has since been deleted (by
�the author, I understand) you can get a sense of its contents from
�reading .31, which replied to .30.
You'd make an excellent traffic court judge.
�> My question is whether the energy/anger is over misunderstanding
�> the system or having very different expectations over WHAT should
�> happen and WHEN.
�
� Well, that may be true in some cases, but it certainly isn't in all
�(or even most) of the cases related here.
MOST of the complaints here ARE based upon expectations.
� I think everybody understands that. What many of the replies have
�related is that recruiters representing Digital (permanent or contract)
�don't even let you know that you CAN'T have a job at Digital (you know,
�the Don't Call Us, We'll Call You letter).
Show me a recruiter who will tell ANY applicant that
there will never be a job for that applicant anywhere in a
compnay as large as this and i'll show you a recruiter with
no friends.
.
.
.
�
� Moral : Please do refer your friends, collegues and relatives to
� a hiring manager if you think that they are the kind of
� quality people that are typical of Digital. Refer your enemies
� to Personnel.
All the "quality" people i've met in DIGITAL wouldn't make
statements such as that one.
�================================================================================
�Note 410.40 Am I the only one? 40 of 40
�VCQUAL::THOMPSON "Noter at large" 68 lines 9-NOV-1987 10:31
� -< What's unreasonable here? >-
�--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.
.
.
� I expect personnel to forward resumes on behalf of employees who
� are looking for a new job. This is especially true when said
� employee gives personnel a resume and a list of jobs that he is
� interested in (including req. numbers).
I've never met a recruiter who didn't refuse forwarding
my resume or giving me the address of the hiring manager to
forward it to. Maybe i'm just a little more agressive or just
better at matching "wrecks" to experience. Whichever, you are
expecting that every recruiter forward your resume to the
people they support which would leave them looking inept if
75% of the people forwarded were a very bad "fit". Managers
don't have recruiters as mail routers.
� Finally after a number of months
� of nothing I gave in to a headhunter and went on an outside interview
� (another computer company). After I gave my notice personnel sent
� me a memo saying that they had mailed my resume to NH. Should I
� have expected it to take three months to mail a resume interoffice
� mail?
Interoffice mail? Come on.
� I expect personnel to hand offer letters in a timely basis. On the
� other hand, the two times I've changed jobs with in DEC I received
� my offer letter the week *after* I started. And I gave the old groups
� 2-5 weeks before joining the new group.
So what? If you accepted the job then you already KNEW
what the offer was so why do you need the letter? It's only a
formality for "the record".
-= -= -= -= -= -= -= -= -=
"Don't criticize your neighbor till you've walked
a mile in his shoes".
Although my introductory paragraph was not directed at
any one participant, overall, I think we all have alot to
learn from "the other side" if we'd just learn to listen.
There was mention of starting a personnel notes
conference, which struck me as an excellent idea, since not
only does it show our concern to discuss this in an adult
manner, but it also serves as a forum where we can detail our
concerns and complaints and recruiters might just be willing
to respond.
|
| 410.46 | Someone should already own the problem | AXEL::FOLEY | Rebelious Clueious withoutious | Tue Nov 10 1987 12:41 | 30 |
| RE: .45
Ok Michael, so you've blasted almost everyone who wrote in
this topic. Fine. I don't see too much constructive suggestions
from you.. You could have saved us the 400 lines of complaining
and followed your own advice.
I suspect the reason that none have jumped up and down with
excitement to go "change the way digital personnel does things"
is that we all have REAL jobs to account for and it's not
my job as a system manager to get involved in changing personnel.
Surely in a company THIS big SOMEONE should actually own and
be reviewed on this responsiblity. (Of course, I'll be glad
to offer my suggestions)
We as the digital noting community and employees don't own that
responsibilty. We CAN and HAVE demonstrated that something
is in fact wrong with the system. The "he who proposes, disposes"
rule doesn't apply here cuz there should already be someone
who owns this. (Now if there ISN'T then that is an unfortunate
circumstance of poor planning by someone)
Bottom line Michael, Get off our backs. With the message coming
from Corporate about possibly having to make due with what
we got, we all have enough real work to do.
Noting on my own time,
mike
|
| 410.47 | | VCQUAL::THOMPSON | Noter at large | Tue Nov 10 1987 13:00 | 59 |
| > I've never met a recruiter who didn't refuse forwarding
> my resume or giving me the address of the hiring manager to
> forward it to. Maybe i'm just a little more agressive or just
> better at matching "wrecks" to experience. Whichever, you are
> expecting that every recruiter forward your resume to the
> people they support which would leave them looking inept if
> 75% of the people forwarded were a very bad "fit". Managers
> don't have recruiters as mail routers.
I assume that you meant to say that you haven't met a recruiter
who *did* refuse to forward a resume? In any case I have. It is
or was extremely common in field offices for personnel to put every
obstacle possible in the way of someone who wants to leave.
As you my expecting every recruiter to forward my resume to every
group that is *not* what I said or meant. I meant that when someone
presents a resume that matches the requirements for a job *as the
hiring manager states them* then the resume should be passed on.
*That* is what did not happen in my case.
>� Should I
>� have expected it to take three months to mail a resume interoffice
>� mail?
>
> Interoffice mail? Come on.
Come on where? You think that waiting three weeks *is* a reasonable
wait for someone to put a resume in an envelope, address it, and
put it in a mailbox? Or are you questioning the interoffice mail
part? Some of us were here before the EASYNET you know! Are you
saying that personnel should have used FAX or US mail instead?
>� I expect personnel to hand offer letters in a timely basis. On the
>� other hand, the two times I've changed jobs with in DEC I received
>� my offer letter the week *after* I started. And I gave the old groups
>� 2-5 weeks before joining the new group.
>
> So what? If you accepted the job then you already KNEW
> what the offer was so why do you need the letter? It's only a
> formality for "the record".
Granted in the case of a transfer it's a formality. When one is
an outside hire it's a heck of a lot more then a formality. I'm
not going to give notice without a hard copy commitment to a new
job. Are you? I have reason to believe that outside hires often
wait quite a long time for the paper offer. Remember to that the
offer letter is a legal commitment. Things not committed in writing
are often hard to get later on.
RE: General comments.
I believe at least one suggestion on improvements was made. Delete
personnel from the org chart. I've tried to improve things by
working with personnel, talking to them, assisting in getting
and screening resumes. Nothing is going to help until personnel
recognizes that they have a problem. I don't see that happening.
Alfred
|
| 410.48 | In General.... | HAVOC::BLAKE | SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RECRUITER | Tue Nov 10 1987 13:11 | 22 |
| Re. :.45 Couldn't have said it better.
Re.: .46 suggest you read note #1. Looks like if someone doesn't
like the flaming, they should pack up their crumpetts and have
tea somewhere else. Liked your narrow attitude :-)
Re.: in general
My response, .30, was heated, I took alot of the flames too
personally, but thats my issue. I felt that most folks repling
didn't have a fair grasp of what a day-in-the-life of a
DEcrecruiter is really like, anymore than what I know about
overworked system managers, engineers or other DECprofessionals.
But I feel good about what I do and how I'm doing it. BTW I
also didn't recognize any names so no reason for me to take
any of the flaming seriously. Any of you folks interested in
some real answers, just call me.
Re.: .31 was dissapointed you didn't respond to my net, it wasn't
easy to put that all together.
Bill.
|
| 410.49 | | RACHET::HETRICK | Brian Hetrick | Tue Nov 10 1987 13:39 | 96 |
| I have a set of experiences with Digital's recruiters which to
some degree shows the magnitude of the discrepancy between common
expectations on the recruitment function and common delivery of the
recruitment function:
Once upon a time, as I was about to be granted my degree and go
out into the wide world, I contacted some friends at Digital, and
received some advice: send a resume the recruitment office at each
facility I was interested in, as the recruitment offices did not share
resumes with one another. So I sent off 25 copies of my resume to
various Digital recruitment offices.
From that set of 25 resumes, I got two responses. One, after
four months, was a statement that Digital Equipment Corporation had no
openings that I would match. The other, after five months, was an
invitation for an interview. I interviewed; after an additional two
months, I received a rejection letter. No matter, I was employed by
that time at another company.
I was later hired into Digital by a manager who contacted me
based on the personal recommendation of one of my friends working for
him.
I have transferred within Digital several times, for a variety of
reasons. The first time, I sent my resume to over 20 recruiters, and
got no response, and my local personnel office gave me lists of
openings that were six months out of date and all already filled; I
finally started cold canvassing managers, and found a job. The next
time, I canvassed managers in parallel with sending my resume to
recruiters, and never noticed that not one of the two dozen or so
recruiters ever responded. The third time, I convinced a manager to
create a position into which he hired me. The most recent time, I
sent resumes to fifteen recruiters (with the requisition numbers I was
interested in), and got two responses: one of these resulted in my
current position.
Out of five job offers, exactly one came with the assistance of
recruiters. Out of over sixty resumes sent to recruiters, I received
responses to four. I have exactly once received an offer letter
before I started a job; I once received the offer letter six months
after I started a job.
I've worked with recruiters as a hiring manager, too. The one
recruiter I worked with as a hiring manager was very competent and
pleasant. She also happens to be one of the four who responded to a
resume I sent out.
I have several times been on interview teams for groups where the
consensus is "make an immediate offer," and the recruiter is told
before the candidate leaves the building to extend an offer -- and the
hiring manager receives a phone call from the candidate six weeks
after the interview, saying that he or she really wanted to work for
Digital and really wanted the position for which he or she had
interviewed, but there were other offers that were expiring and he or
she couldn't wait any longer to hear from Digital, sorry.
I have personally witnessed a recruiter throw out a foot and a
half stack of unread resumes because he didn't have time to deal with
them.
Now, neither I nor anyone else not in recruitment can say that
the incidents described in the various notes and replies to this
topic, including this one, are evidence of a problem. I can conclude
from personal observation and from reading these notes and replies
that the recruitment process is not as smooth as I would like, but
that does not mean that there is a problem: there are a number of
things about the world that are not as I wish, but that are still not
problems. So, unlike .46, I will not even state that the various
incidents show that there is a problem.
But even if the existence of a problem is posited, the identity
of the problem would not be apparent to somone not working with the
system daily, the recruiters themselves. Supposing that a "problem"
exists, I can guess wildly as to what it might be: EEO investigating
and reporting, which I am told takes more time that I could possibly
imagine; number of openings per recruiter; number of applications
per opening; internal politics; hiring managers with hidden agendas;
and so forth. The possibilities are endless. But these guesses are
worthless; I do not know enough about the processes involved to have
even a chance of correctly identifying "the problem."
It may be that the recruiters consider the various incidents
described in this topic to be evidence of a problem, and are in fact
fully aware of the identity of a single underlying problem or a set of
problems. Awareness of a problem does not imply the power to address
the problem. But *if* the various incidents are evidence of a
problem, then perhaps collecting scattered complaints in a notes
conference is exactly what is needed to make those with power to
address the problem aware of the need to address problem.
On the other hand, since the attitude of the only recruiter to
address this topic seems to be "everything is just ducky," then I
suppose everything is just ducky, and this is the way it's supposed to
be.
Brian Hetrick
|
| 410.50 | In the eye of the beholder | HAVOC::BLAKE | SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RECRUITER | Tue Nov 10 1987 14:24 | 12 |
| Brian,
Your example of a recruiter who was asked to get an offer right
out right away is bizzar, think about it. Manager makes request
and doesn't follow up??? Isn't curious about why no start date or
copy of offer letter??? I'm not saying the recruiter isn't at fault
but the manager needs to shoulder some fault as well.
Re. things being "ducky". I didn't say that! I said I was satisfied
with MY efforts, given my last review I have strong reason to believe
that my customers are too.
Bill.
|
| 410.51 | | RACHET::HETRICK | Brian Hetrick | Tue Nov 10 1987 15:14 | 61 |
| Bill,
Several times I haven't tracked what happened, so I can't say
whether the manager in those cases followed up or not. But in one
case, I was extremely enthusiastic about a candiate -- and bugged the
hiring manager so much that he let me watch each Monday morning as he
called the recruiter to learn the previous week's reason for not
sending the offer letter, and then called the recruiter's manager to
complain that the offer letter had still not been sent.
It only took three weeks for the candidate to evaporate that
time. She was a VERY strong candiate, and got a good job. Elsewhere.
I am glad that you are satisfied with your efforts. As I
mentioned in my note, there are recruiters I have dealt with who are
energetic, responsible, competent, and all-around goodnesses: good
recruiters can indeed occur. I am perfectly willing to believe that
you, personally, are one.
But I don't perceive that the discussion is about individual
recruiters, although of necessity all the anecdotes discuss individual
(although, given the tone of the anecdotes, hopefully not
identifiable) recruiters. I perceive that the discussion is about the
recruitment _function_ within Digital, and the frustration Digital
employees feel with its current implementation.
One of the first things I learned when studying organizational
dynamics is that widespread failures in a function are often caused by
the structure of the organization performing that function, not the
people -- almost always, the individual people are doing better than
anyone understanding the situation could expect, and produce in spite
of the organizational structure, not because of it. The same argument
holds in manufacturing quality control: most failures are systemic,
not individual.
So I don't expect that beating on individual recruiters would be
any more fruitful than beating on any other individuals placed in
impossible situations. What I do expect is that the concatenation of
a number of anecdotes about isolated failures of the function will
result in the identification of a common thread indicative of an
organizational flaw of some sort.
Now, it may indeed be that there _is_ no organizational flaw. In
Digital, I am sure that several thousand job offers happen per day,
several tens of thousands of resumes are read, and so forth. One
would expect some small fraction of these 'recruitment events' to be
mishandled simply due to random causes. But several of the replies
note that a large fraction of these 'recruitment events' are
mishandled, or at least perceived by non-recruiters as mishandled, to
the extent that job-hunting employees, hiring managers, and external
candidates avoid recruiters whenever possible.
My interpretation of the anecdotes offered so far is that either
general expectations of the recruitment function are _much_ too high,
or the recruitment function is being executed _much_ too poorly for
systemic reasons. Neither of these can be dealt with by the
individual recruiter, although he or she can try -- and burn out in
the process.
Brian Hetrick
|
| 410.52 | Good Recruiters do exist! | AIMHI::CHAMBERLAIN | | Tue Nov 10 1987 15:55 | 7 |
| Sometimes when we generalize we are making an assumption that all
people who carry similar job codes are alike. My experience has
been very different from yours. Although the personnel staff does
vary, just as folks in other professions vary, many are very
supportive, helpful, and informative. Perhaps you might contact
another and have better results. I know some great recruiters if
you would like their names. JC
|
| 410.53 | Where there's a will... | HYEND::SFGSEC | | Tue Nov 10 1987 16:36 | 45 |
| I was a contract Employment Coordinator supporting a Recruiter for
three months, so I know (somewhat) of what I speak...The PROCESS
is this: Resumes arrive (via interoffice mail, ENET, FAX, and
sometimes Federal Express) by the 'truckload' daily...The ONLY resumes
that are EVER 'circular-filed' are AGENCY resumes (but they are
first scanned for appropriate background lest a 'great' one get
away). The rest are counted, dated and separated by category
(internal and external). The recruiter with whom I worked TOOK
HOME a huge pile of such resumes weekly, as office time was spent
on the actual interviews, offer letters, coding reqs. and forms
for the aforementioned TESS personnel database system, reference
calls (three per every potential hire), fielding agency headhunters,
ETC. These resumes would then be given to me the following week
for proper copying, forwarding, coding and filing. But before they
are even given to the recruiter, each internal and non-agency external
resume is properly acknowledged with a form letter. (At least OUR
group was good about this aspect of the process. However, I too
have yet to receive acknowledgements from other employment groups
going back three months.)
Once the resumes are processed and sent off to the appropriate hiring
managers, anything can happen. Sometimes they were good about getting
back to us with feedback. Othertimes, zippo. Other managers would
bring in 5 - 6 people for a given position with an interview loop
of 10 people per candidate and take ten years to make up their
collective mind. At this point, Employment (which is
a SUBSET of Personnel) is merely a liaison between manager and
candidate. Nothing is done on the part of Employment AT THIS POINT
until we hear from the MANAGER of the req.
Oftentimes, due process was butchered. Managers hiring people outright
before telling Employment...Managers not knowing which recruiter
was even responsible for their req....Managers having us set up
interviews and then telling us never mind, meaning we had to let
someone's hopes down in the least hurtful, most creative ways ("I'm
sorry, Mr. Jones, but they just froze the budget for outside hires.")
Granted, most managers are not TRAINED in personnel matters -- they
have jobs to do beyond hiring for their group. Perhaps THIS is
an area which could be rectified -- TRAINING in regards to RECRUITMENT
for all involved. Mutual understanding and communication should
not be too difficult an attainment in a company on the forefront
of technology made up of intelligent adults.
MR
|
| 410.54 | it's here | FSTTOO::FOSTER | Frank Foster -- Cincinnati Kid | Tue Nov 10 1987 17:42 | 10 |
| > Granted, most managers are not TRAINED in personnel matters -- they
> have jobs to do beyond hiring for their group. Perhaps THIS is
> an area which could be rectified -- TRAINING in regards to RECRUITMENT
> for all involved.
It's happening. I recently attended a 2-hour "Employment Seminar"
put on by our local Employment people. As a relatively new
manager with several open reqs, I found it VERY enlightening.
Frank
|
| 410.55 | | JOET::JOET | Deatht�ngue lives! | Tue Nov 10 1987 21:20 | 39 |
| re: .45
I read your reply and it really bothered me. Here we have all of
these people giving concrete examples of a serious problem and you
scold them for bringing it up? I can't see how relating these
difficulties can do other than help improve things. Identification
and exposure of a problem is the first step to correcting it.
While I may not personally have any dealings with those responsible for
sending out acceptance letters, I certainly AM affected if a good
potential co-worker is not hired, whatever the reason. I find it
totally unacceptable if it's due to either incompetence or some kind of
"Well, that's the way the system works" attitude.
What really got me, is when you wrote the following:
> Good for you Neil! You've beaten "the system" and applied creativity
> in removing a block in the road. You probably scored points with
> the manager by doing this since it shows you can work situations
> that, at first, seem to be an impasse.
Unless I'm missing something, recruiters aren't supposed to make
it difficult to get the job as some sort of test. Most of the writers
in this note see this as a very unfortunate side-effect, not something
to laud.
Your suggestion seems to be that we all work harder to get around
the present problem without attempting to fix what's wrong. It's
the same as saying that if interoffice mail took a month to get from
PKO to MRO that we shouldn't complain, but should all rent bicycles
to hand-carry packages between buildings. Although it might really
show off our dedication to our bosses, it would most definitely
impact the company's productivity.
In short, I think that this note, above all others in this conference,
has the best chance of actually getting something changed for the
better in DEC.
-joe tomkowitz
|
| 410.56 | Don't cut the heart out of this conference | DENTON::AMARTIN | Alan H. Martin | Tue Nov 10 1987 23:12 | 20 |
| Re .43:
This conference provides great value to a great number of people.
This topic is an example of this conference at its best.
I do not regard it as "taking over" this conference - it is just a hot
topic this month.
Nor does it seem a good starting point for a set of new topics unrelated to
the existing themes of this conference.
This topic will probably die down soon, or continue in a more constructive vein.
(I think that will come from people who care working this issue *way* up
Personnel's management chain).
"Personnel" (as seen from the average employee's viewpoint) is a central
theme of this conference.
I think that attempting to factor it out into a separate conference will
sow confusion, not bring enlightnment.
HUMAN::DIGITAL ain't broke. Let's not "fix" it.
/AHM/THX
|
| 410.57 | If only we had a computer ... | SYSEFS::MCCABE | If Murphy's Law can go wrong .. | Wed Nov 11 1987 14:00 | 68 |
| Solutions, suggestions , ...
I've been part of, watched and heard of many horror stories about
DEC recruitment. The phrase "managing your career is your
responsibility at DEC" comes to mind over and over. Assisting existing
employees to get new jobs is considered to NOT be job done by
Personnel. Getting new people hired is an organizational recruitment
task, often administered by contract recruiters.
The problems seemingly listed here are:
o Canidate management. Reception, ack, distribution, follow-up
and final status.
o Large volumns of paper sent to each organizational site, each
with select policy, each with territorial rights, little
information exchange between recruitment offices.
o Duplication and time stamping of agency resumes, classification
and forwarding.
o Movement of internal job information for internal canidates.
Well. We are supposed to be a computer company. Why don't we look
like one.
As an engineering manager, I get most resumes in photocopy form and
many internal resumes forwarded. A great deal of duplication. Little
information about other interviews or references is available.
If we did the following over time some reasonable expectations could
be set.
Internal canidates submit electronic copies of their resume
once, to a central location with desires expressed as to
organizations, and locations, and job type they would be interested
in working for. Restrictions on whether or not they would
like to preview targets before the are sent could be included.
Agencies could be asked to provide electronic medium in a standard
format if they wish more timely treatment.
External canidates should be given the option for sending a
text copy of their resume on floppy disk. (IBM format, ASCII)
a large number of applicants to a computer have access to computers
themselves.
A central data entry facility for putting in summaries of written
resumes and a coding mechinism so that an interested manager
or personnel rep could request a copy of the full document.
Automatic acknowledgement and update information for canidates
both internal and external.
Data entry for ALL (maybe regional) resumes could handle
A suspensing system to track progress of ALL resumes, interview
updates and internal references.
This will of course require a corperate level effort, but it should
more than compensate each organization for the redundant and
unpredictiable effort currently being done.
Then we can make it into a product and sell it.
KMc
|
| 410.58 | I think there is such a package ... | SRFSUP::MCCARTHY | Larry McCarthy, LAO | Wed Nov 11 1987 14:33 | 14 |
|
re .-1
I think that we already do sell such a package layered on top of
ALL-IN-1 (did I get the capitalization right ?).
Perhaps someone who's familiar with it (I don't even know the
package's name) would care to comment ...
- Larry.
PS : It's just an observation from an obviously un-quality guy (re:
the n-hundred line reply previously), but it looks like we're on the
trail of a solution here :-}
|
| 410.59 | requistion info from TESS | VAXWRK::TCHEN | | Wed Nov 11 1987 15:04 | 20 |
| This is an edited version of mail sent to me (in reply to .42) by a
person in Corporate Equipment Systems who didn't reply in this note due
to fear of a lynching :-). She will suggest to the employment groups to
look at this note.
******************************************************************************
TESS (TOTAL EMPLOYMENT STAFFING SYSTEM) is used by most recruiters
in Digital. It's a tool which allows recruiters/managers the ability
to share applicant and requisition information as well as provide
reporting for Government and EEO measures.
(Applicant screen captures summary information on Job Codes, Skill codes etc.)
It is only available to Digital Employees by using 'their' JOB RESOURCE CENTER.
Within TESS, There is EMPLOYEE FUNCTION SECTION which allows user to submit
search criteria (Job Code/Site Code) for available jobs/requisitions.
Unfortunately, it is not available without the aide of a recruiter/coordinator
since it requires some assistance. However, once they get you started you're
left alone to search for jobs and/or build your resume on-line.
|
| 410.60 | | AXEL::FOLEY | Rebelious Clueious withoutious | Wed Nov 11 1987 19:46 | 15 |
| re. .48
Narrow attitude???!!!! Is this a case of the kettle calling
the pot black or what?!
.45 flamed. Go tell him to read note #1. I have no intention
of packing up anything and leaving. This is a problem and I
think that we can get the ball rolling right here.. (If we
haven't already)
Please stop taking things so personally.. We're not angry at
Bill Blake. We ARE angry at the system that we percieve to be
not working as best as it could.
mike
|
| 410.61 | | SPMFG1::CHARBONND | and I'll keep on walking. | Thu Nov 12 1987 06:04 | 1 |
| Re. 57 What, then, DOES Personnel do ? I mean, besides reorganize?
|
| 410.62 | let's try to keep to the topic at hand | TIXEL::ARNOLD | Don't take NH for granite! | Thu Nov 12 1987 08:52 | 21 |
| re .61
I think the topic of this note is directed at the recruitment process,
and what "may" be wrong with that process. Let's not digress into
what Personnel as an entire organization does. But on that note,
I've gained a new appreciation for what Personnel really does do,
since my better half works there now. How many of you are aware
that you can attend BU course via video conferencing in ZKO, LJO,
and other places? Or attend workshops on various topics for PERSONAL
CAREER DEVELOPMENT, such as how to interview, how to write resumes,
even how to do effective presentations? One of their biggest problems
seems to be the fact that they are very ineffective at MARKETING.
I've been with Digital almost 7 years and only recently found out
about such things. And they don't have a plan of action in place
to advertise the scope of available things. It's a good thing we
don't sell computers that way.
Well, now that I've suggested that we don't digress, and just finished
doing just that, on with the discussion.
Jon
|
| 410.63 | These Programs can be scarce! | AUSTIN::UNLAND | | Thu Nov 12 1987 11:37 | 21 |
| re .62
> even how to do effective presentations? One of their biggest problems
> seems to be the fact that they are very ineffective at MARKETING.
|
> to advertise the scope of available things. It's a good thing we
> don't sell computers that way.
Should there be a smiley-face here?
On the subject, it's true that Personnel provides a number of benefits
that are not widely advertised, probably because a lot of these
extra-curricular programs are driven on a local basis, by a staffer
who has initiative and *cares* about doing a quality job. Having
worked out of three different field offices, I can attest to the
fact that these programs vary between excellent and non-existant
depending on the local Personnel staff. This situation makes it
difficult to determine what *your* office has available.
Geoff
|
| 410.64 | changing the title | HUMAN::CONKLIN | Peter Conklin | Sun Nov 15 1987 19:34 | 6 |
| Since this topic is about recruiting, I have changed the topic's
title to be "Recruiting at Digital" rather than the original
"Am I the only one?..." This will make it easier for people to find
the topic.
/the moderator
|
| 410.65 | | NEWVAX::FILER | | Tue Nov 17 1987 14:08 | 15 |
| I feel that except in large facilities DEC does a poor job
of recruiting or even informing people both inside and outside of
DEC about current openings. I can get the jobs book (which is scheduled
to stop publication in dec.87) or look in the vtx jobs book and
find openings thousands of miles away but to find jobs in local
office is difficult.
It would seem to me that if all job oppenings were listed in
a jobs book (either online or on paper) complete with a discription
of the position, skills needed, job level, physical location, %
of travel required and availability of relocation funds the job
of recruiter would be easier. If people new more about job openings
they could only send resumes in responce to postings that they were
qualified for and interested in. They might even stop going around
personel to find a new position.
Jeff Filer
|
| 410.66 | Comming soon...the VTX version..maybe | BARTLS::SHAW | Bob Shaw | Wed Nov 18 1987 08:58 | 6 |
| The online jobs information reached by VTX contains only jobs
in the greater Mass/NH area. I have been told that when the jobs
book ends in Dec., all jobs will be able to be found in this VTX
version. It will probably be the responsibility of local personnel
departments to put entries into this so only time will tell if it
will be useful as a source of available positions.
|
| 410.67 | I try... | DISSRV::KOSKI | | Thu Nov 19 1987 14:44 | 16 |
| May I make a "small fish, big sea" comment? After reading the overwhelmingly
negative comments in this note I wanted my small say. I am in Employment,
I support the recruiter for VRO & CFO (Concord). It is my
responsibility to acknowledge receipt of resumes. It would be my
preference to call each internal candidate, but alas this would
be impossible. Therefore I send achnowledgement letters out to both
internal & external applicants. I generate these weekly. Their not
bad for form letters, I've even received a thank you from an applicant,
happy to know that there was someone out here in Employment land.
Calls to our office are answered ASAP. We do value our customers,
you the job seekers.
I'm sure there are other small fish out there also trying to make
a difference.
PS. It took me 6 months to move from the Temp world into the regular
world. Glad to be here.
|
| 410.68 | Help??!!!! | MARCIE::UPR | | Fri Nov 20 1987 06:18 | 18 |
| Well, I just read through 60+ notes and learned there are countless
situations the same as the one I'm in now.
I want very badly to get an interveiw for a job opening in AKO.
After three weeks of calling the recruiter every other day (she
was never available) I finally reached her to find that the req's
are, of course, frozen.
How do you find out who the hiring manager is? My present job (or
lack of) leaves me with more time to kill than you can imagine.
If someone could just talk to me, I think they'd see I can be put
to a lot better use. But how do I find out who they are?
Any suggestions welcome....DECXPS::CJACQUES
I have, by the way, sent my resume, but have no idea if it got beyond
the recruiter.
|
| 410.69 | A Few Hints.... | HAVOC::BLAKE | SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RECRUITER | Fri Nov 20 1987 10:21 | 83 |
| Re.: .68
>How do I find out who the hiring manager is?
You could start out by ASKING. Either the recruiter or his/her
coordinator could/should/will give you this information.
Re.: All Job Seekers
Is your resume in order??? 90+% of the ones I see tell me what you
did/do, where you did/do it and when you did/do it, but have little
bearing on what you WANT to do. Consider that the resume is a proposal,
a professional communication, if you will. It should have a clear
focus. It has been my experience that most people in this corporation
change jobs to do something different, related yes, but different
none-the-less. It has also been my experience that a large % of
these people have the requisite experience to do this, but express
it so poorly that interviews never happen. What follows is an example
of what I feel is good format:
Name
Home Adress
Home Phone number
DTN
Mail Stop
Vax mail account
Obective: (a one liner which is to the point)
Education: (highest achieved first) this information can also
be located last.
XZY University. Any Town, USA
BS Electrical Engineering 19XX
GPA X.XX/y.yy
Summary: (this paragraph is your "marketing" paragraph, it should
run 5-8 lines, should be packed with action statements
like, Have done..... Strong Working knowledge of....
Expertise in...... This paragraph should "speak" directly
to the objective, if it doesn't bear on the objective you
don't write it)
Experience: Digital Equipment Co. 19XX to Present
Aspiring Professional (title optional)
This set of paragraphs is where you detail the experience
you have/had which you feel qualifies you to be interviewed
for the job you're bidding (the one in the objective).
Set your thinking in the "25 words or less" mentality,
make every word count, make every sentence/phrase mean
something tword the objective. If it doesn't bear on the
objective than don't expect the reader to want to wade
through it.
Interests: (Use this device to fill the page if you need it, it's
totally optional. If you decide/choose to use this consider
carefully what you list, you can kill a good thing by
being too extream)
In general you're "selling" the experience which is 0-5 years old,
anything beyond that is usually considered to be unmarketable. Keep
the resume to ONE page. If you haven't tweeked interest in one page
the ball game is over. Don't forget, the mission of the resume is
to get you an interview, not an offer, we don't hire resumes. Use
the power of illusion, you can also use "qualifiers" like exposed
to.... fimilar with.... working knowledge of..... The job offer,
if and when it comes, will be based primarily on potential and
chemistry, not to suggest that you don't need pertinent skills.
The average job seeker will spend bewteen 1-5 months on the trail
of a new position, it's not easy. The only endeavors in life that
people do less often are 1) deciding wether or not to seek a spouse
2)deciding wether or not to go for a mortage 3) deciding wether
or not to procreate the species. You spend 1/3 of your life
deciding/living with the above, 1/3 of your life sleeping and 1/3
of your life working, makes sense to do all with as much class as
possible. Your new job starts with the resume, do it with class.
Bill.
|
| 410.70 | Internal references WORK! | JAWS::DAVIS | Gil Davis | Fri Nov 20 1987 22:40 | 10 |
| I've always thought that a few widely-geographically dispersed
references from folks in Senior Sales/Manufacturing or whatever
discipline *and/or* management functions helps on the ol' resume...
Gil
(Who just started a NEW JOB !!! Yeah Yeah!!)
Luck comes in handy too.....
|
| 410.71 | Need Input!! | HAVOC::BLAKE | SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RECRUITER | Tue Nov 24 1987 22:39 | 20 |
| Hey all
I went to some effort to get a constructive dialog going to mend
some of the problems you claim exist with the employment function.
I started with the resume because thats where most problems seem
to start. I'm willing to field your questions/concerns in order
to make DEC a better place to work/change jobs in, maybe get your
referals hired in. Some of you were sure ready/justified to complain,
but nothing is going to change unless we work at it.
I have a head-count cap going which gives me a limited amount of
"spare" time. I'm going to use most of it to strategize with my
customers on how we can effect a more timely/cost effective hiring
program, but I'm going to log in to this conference as often as
I can and do the best I can to turn things around. I invite all
DECrecruiters, who read this, to chime in as you feel appropriate.
Changing jobs is not magic, its hard work!
Bill.
|
| 410.72 | Memo from SO. NH Employment | CLUE::CODY | | Wed Nov 25 1987 07:57 | 35 |
| The following memo was sent to all the managers and supervisors
in Southern New Hampshire yesterday. It is from the So. New Hampshire
employment manager.
Having evaluated customer feedback regarding the handling of employee
referrals and our desire to provide excellent employment service,
the Southern New Hampshire Employment Group has adopted the following
employee referral process effective immediately.
Whenever a recruiter receives an employment referral (a resume or
employment application which an employee is activetly recommending
for employment consideration), he/she will respond to the employee
making the referral by phone to:
a. acknowledge receipt of the resume/application
b. discuss the candidate's qualifications versus current and/or
anticipated openings
c. discuss the course of action to be followed
d. discuss (if appropriate) other employment opportunities outside
of Southern New Hampshire
e. answer any questions
Additionally, an acknowledgement letter will be sent to the applicant
unless the employee specifically requests that one not be sent.
We belive that this referral procedure will result in employees
being better informed about the status of their referrals. We also
encourage you and your staffs to continue referring quality canidates.
This is a great help to us in our efforts to meet our workforce
needs.
|
| 410.73 | Serious steps in the right direction | VCQUAL::THOMPSON | Noter at large | Wed Nov 25 1987 08:42 | 6 |
| RE: last two replies
Sounds like people *are* listening and trying to help. I couldn't
be more pleased. Thanks.
Alfred
|
| 410.74 | | FSTTOO::FOSTER | Yuppie woe:retriver poop on Reeboks | Wed Nov 25 1987 09:09 | 23 |
| re .69
As a hiring manager, I agree 100%. I see a lot of
resumes and the poor ones get barely a glance.
> Keep the resume to ONE page. If you haven't tweeked interest
> in one page the ball game is over. Don't forget, the mission
> of the resume is to get you an interview, not an offer, we don't
> hire resumes.
This is true; if I don't see what I'm looking for on the first
page, I often don't look at the subsequent page(s). Unfortunately,
I may have skipped over some good people that way.
Keywords are important in resumes, too. Most of the recruiters
I've worked with are not particularly technical, so I have often
given them keywords (eg. MACRO, Rdb) to look for on resumes.
re .72
It sounds like the Southern NH Employment Group has a good idea;
perhaps this should be instituted company-wide.
Frank_who_has_war_stories_from_both_sides_of_this_fence
|
| 410.75 | Well done in .69! | TLE::SAVAGE | Neil, @Spit Brook | Wed Nov 25 1987 09:37 | 3 |
| I agree with Frank in .74 that the resume advice in .69 is dead
on. Thanks, Bill, for sharing it with us. I've filed a hard copy
away and intend to share with others seeking resume advice.
|
| 410.76 | Suggestions for improved recruiting | DELAND::ROBERT | | Wed Nov 25 1987 09:39 | 168 |
| re: .71
Suggestions:
When I was hired at DEC I was also interviewing at DG.
I got three offers, 1 from DG and 2 from DEC.
At the same time I got two refusuals, 1 each from DEC
and DG personel departments.
From what I hear this kind of thing continues today.
It strikes me as embarassing and insulting.
1. Fix it -- it must be just an administrative thing, but
the practice occurs in many companies.
---------------
I've also noticed that refusal letters from Personnel
often take the form, "there are no positions at Digital
that match your profile, but we will place your resume
on file."
Problems: I often tell candidates to not believe this
letter, and to read it instead as saying:
"A particular site or recruitor was unable
to establish a match". Digital may have many
openings for you.
"You're resume will indeed be placed on file,
but nothing will probably come of it." Resubmit
your resume every 3-6 months.
(I don't mean to offend recruiting here, but these opinions
are based on my repeated personal experiences.)
And, if at all possible, try and find an inside
person at the company and work directly with them
and hiring managers; managers are better prepared
to screen resumes against particular jobs (even if
they hate the task) and an inside recommendation
is worth tons of bonus points.
2. Reword the refusual letter to be more accurate, polite,
and suggestively helpful. Every interviewee is also a
potential customer and a human; the letter should be
very respectful and humble. Candidates are hirable
until proven otherwise. The letter should basically:
Thank the person for coming in ...
Express our regrets at being unable to locate
a position at this time ...
Encourage them to try again later, or at other sites
Don't make corporate-wide claims about job openings
that may be untrue.
-----------------------
3. Use more technology and automation. Try and get resumes and
interview forms on-line. Consider OCR scanners. Use MAIL and
notes conferences more.
Provide an external dial-up; let candidates submit resumes
electronically. Within limits, let them scan open jobs.
Invite external agencies to submit electronically. This
is 1987.
[I suspect personel is steeped in confidentiality practices
and so this may seem heretical. However, I'm sure there is
a good deal of information that _could_ be exchanged safely
via networks and a little good judgement and guidelines can
make it work.]
Many of our applicants have PCs and Modems at home; let's
take advantage of DECs high-tech networking and computer
automation.
----------------------------
4. Exploratory interviews.
Many candidate's resumes are written with an assumed job
in mind, and/or fail to highlight a person's skills.
Identify some especially talented interviewers, and when
there is no immediate match, consider bringing the person
in for an exploratory interview. When we spot really good
people let's "make" positions for them. I'd rather hire
one really good person into a slightly awkward job description
than three "meets req.s" into good matches.
The interviewer described above should have real management
skills and experience. Not just the personel variety which
is oriented toward job habits, work experience, etc., as
opposed to looking for raw skills, potential, etc.
(at least it seems that way ...)
----------------------
5. Follow-ups.
When an offer letter goes out (internal or external), the
person should be personally called a few days later. This
can often make the difference to a person with two or more
offers. I'm at DEC because of such a call. I know many
similar stories from associates and friends.
Refusuals should also be followed-up in those cases where
review comments were positive but job match failed. Call
these folks 6 months later and ask them how they are doing.
They will appreciate this even if no job results.
We are building relationships with people here for the future,
and we are building Digital as a people oriented company.
----------------------------
6. Internal only: it is sometimes true that an internal
transfer does not command the same title and/or salary
that the same person would acquire if coming in from
the outside because of inertia in the promotion system.
This is a widely known situation. During the 70's in
particular, external recruitors inspired a good deal
of job hopping because of salary gaps.
We need something inside of DEC that spots these cases
and instigates/INITIATES an adjustment process during
the interviewing process.
When a recruitor sees a person applying for positions
above their rating (and/or salary) some review process
should be triggered. Ask the question, "if this person
and their resume came in from the outside would they
be treated differently?" When the answer is "yes",
help the employee. Don't expect that they completely
know how to work the system. Some do, others don't.
I hope these suggestions are helpful. They are not a flame, though
I do feel emotional about recruiting practices and feel they can
be immensely improved.
I'd like to see candidates leave DEC saying, "My, that was the
nicest personal department I've ever dealt with. They were
extremely helpful, respectful, and polite -- unlike any other
company I've dealt with -- I really want to work for DEC."
Recruiting is our first contact with most employees and first impressions ...
- greg
|
| 410.77 | Staffing | FIDDLE::DELUCO | | Wed Nov 25 1987 12:58 | 2 |
| re.72 Making the statement is a good start but who pays for the
staffing to make all the phone calls and follow up work?
|
| 410.78 | Kudo's to Bill Blake! | SAFETY::SEGAL | Len Segal, 223-7687 | Wed Nov 25 1987 13:33 | 18 |
| RE: .69
I would like to publicly thank Bill Blake for some very constructive
input!
I would also like to see Bill's comments about adding personal
details to a resume (such as: height, weight, date of birth,
marital status, health condition, number/ages of children, names of
personal references, social security number, pictures, etc.).
Personally, I do not think that any of these items have any place on
a resume (references should only be furnished upon request and only
if there is mutual interest, no point on bothering people
unnecessarily).
It also seems appropriate for Bill's hints and some of these
comments to be placed in JOBS.NOTE (OASS::JOBS).
Len
|
| 410.79 | | JENEVR::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Wed Nov 25 1987 13:50 | 5 |
| Re: .78
Some kinds of personal data will (or should) be crossed out before
the resume is circulated - I think married/single is one of those
things. I'm pretty sure current salary is also zapped.
|
| 410.80 | My Hot Button: Understand Requirements | DELNI::JONG | Steve Jong/NaC Pubs | Wed Nov 25 1987 14:39 | 9 |
| I too would like to thank Bill for his excellent input into this
discussion.
In my opinion, the first priority should be for personnel reps to
sit down with hiring managers and understand exectly what the manager
is looking for. The goal should be that the rep screens resumes
exactly the way the manager would, only much faster. Every instance
of "dud gets through" and "hot prospect doesn't get interview" should
be taken as a failure to be eliminated in future.
|
| 410.81 | Happy and Healthy holiday to everyone! | DIEHRD::MAHLER | I GOTTA be learning SOMETHING! | Wed Nov 25 1987 15:06 | 16 |
|
We all owe Bill a beer for this one [but not during lunch of
course]! The information he's provided was free of charge and would
normally cost bucks if farmed out to a resume butcher squad...
Informational interviews are also key to finding out exactly
what requirements are needed in an area you are interested in. It
is fine to do and can help you evaluate your resume to see if you
even want to send it. Many people send perfectly fine resumes to
perfectly MISMATCHED positions and that's not good. It wastes your
time and the managers time to bring you in to find out there's a
mismatch of interests. When you are being interviewed, you should
also interview the group for potential and fit. It takes a while
to feel comfortable doing this, but it pays of in the long run usually.
|
| 410.82 | | SCOTCH::FUSCI | DEC has it (on backorder) NOW! | Sat Nov 28 1987 12:09 | 10 |
| re: 410.78
> It also seems appropriate for Bill's hints and some of these
> comments to be placed in JOBS.NOTE (OASS::JOBS).
I've already asked for and received Bill's permission to cross-post his
note to JOBS. I'm waiting on a reply to mail I've sent to the moderator,
since the "right" place is write-locked.
Ray
|
| 410.83 | | DIEHRD::MAHLER | New and Improved... | Mon Nov 30 1987 10:36 | 5 |
|
The note has been posted in the JOBS conference and it looks
good.
|
| 410.84 | Past, Present and Future... | HAVOC::BLAKE | SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RECRUITER | Mon Nov 30 1987 11:27 | 50 |
| Re.: .78 & .79
I would strongly encourage applicants to leave personal data off
their resumes. It is illegal for an employer to consider such
information for screening purposes, so why invite discrimination?
Again, the resume should be clear, concise, to the point. It has
been my experience that personal data has nothing to do with how
well a person performs their job. Personal data and/or a picture
invites or allows the possibility of a "subjective" screen, not
that that wouldn't weigh in one's favor, but why take the chance?
A good question, thanks for asking.
Re.: .80
I can't profess to be speaking for DEC recruiting as a whole, but
to understand the customer's (hiring manager) needs is as important
as being able to understand what an applicant can offer. In my own
case I spent a majority of my first two months in this job meeting
my customers so I could learn what they needed as well as their
business plan. It is important for me to have a strategic overview
of my groups so that my tactics fit a plan. Also, inorder to better
serve my customers I've signed up to start pre-MS Computer Science
courses at BU. I have "built" my own uVAX from "spare" parts and
have it up on the net. I feel that it is very important for
DECrecruiters to have a good technical grounding of what our H/W
and S/W are and how they play together.
My advice to any managers out there reading this topic is to make
your recruiter part of your group,invite them to an ocassional staff,
discuss how your need for human resources will effect/impact your
business plan, help make them a "business partner". Most recruiters
only see the on-again off-again nature of recruiting at DEC, sorta
like missing the forest for the trees. It can take months to get
some recruiting momentum, it only takes a few weeks to kill it.
If you as a hiring manager partner with your recruiter than
frustrations are minimized.
Strategic recruiting, the real stuff, to my knowledge and in my
experience, has not yet happened. In an ideal setting all requisitions
would be in the recruiters hands at the beginning of the fiscal
year (with the exception of critical replacements). These req's
would be quarterized and made available to the internal community,
contingency plans, based on availability data, would be drawn so
that employment could line up employee referal, advertising,
road-tripping and agency sources to effect TIMELY cost effective
hires. As DEC becomes more "mature" strategic recruiting becomes
a stronger possibility, rudiments of same surface from time to time
even now. We have a long way to go, but I feel that we are underway.
Bill.
|
| 410.85 | | MRMFG1::C_DENOPOULOS | | Thu Dec 03 1987 22:00 | 34 |
| Wow!! I made it through all 84 reply messages.
Now for me. I am a Human Resourse Manager. In the past ten months
I have placed 30 people and I have 23 left to place by June 1988.
I have dealt with recruiters from Mass. to Cal. I have learned
a few things during this time. Bill, I don't know about your group
but there were only two recruiters that would give out the hiring
managers name. All the others flat out refuse. The ones that did
were instructed that they could give the names to anyone from my
group. There are some that are over-worked, some that bend over
backwards, and some that are the most apathetic(sp) people I have
ever dealt with. The majority of the ones I've dealt with are in
the "over-worked" catagory. These people have to be called a few
times a week to keep things moving. There are also contract
recruiters. The best, by far, recruiter I've dealt with is a contract.
When things settle down after the holidays, I'll be sending the
manager that she reports to a nice long letter. All the apathetic
ones I've dealt with were Dec employees. Remember, I'm not saying
all the Decs are that way. The way I see it, I am better off to
contact the recruiter, send the recruiter the resume,
get the managers name, then call the manager and send him the resume.
Almost all my placements were done this way. BTW, I never send
hardcopy.
I feel that where I have 23 more people to place and then get
myself placed, I can not complain about any of the recruiters.
I'm afraid that when I call later they'll say to themselves "Oh
yah, I remember him. He's the one that complained."
Well, that's it. I just wanted to add a few cents to the topic.
Chris D.
p.s. If there are any managers out there that have jobs open in
the southern N.H. area and Mass. area, we've got the people.
Just mail me the info and I'll get back to you.(I really will).
|
| 410.86 | | HAVOC::BLAKE | Common Sense,The Most Powerful Weapon | Fri Dec 04 1987 10:34 | 20 |
| Chris:
Please be careful with blanket statements, "All other recruiters
flat out refused". You didn't call me! If you feel you mission is
critical (i'd be inclined to think it is) then I suggest to make
appointments with the recruiters in question or their managers,
possibly attend an employment staff meeting to discuss your possible
"solutions" to their staffing problems.
Contract recruiters are, generally, excellent; they have to be,
the competition is severe to be one of their numbers. They also
are paid at or above 2X normal DECrecruiters salary plus overtime.
I have interviewed and participated in hiring several, I was one
when I joined DEC initially. I'm not trying to make excuses or defend
incompetence, it exists. I'd be happy to help you work out some
tactics, off-line, to aid you in adressing your problems, just call.
Bill.
the
|
| 410.87 | Just curious - how do you find each other? | REGENT::EPSTEIN | Bruce Epstein | Fri Dec 04 1987 15:51 | 6 |
| Is there a way for a recruiter in one organization to find out who
the recruiters are in other organizations? In other words, is there
an 'Internal Guide to Digital Personnel Organizations' as there
is for Engineering?
Bruce (not a recruiter)
|
| 410.88 | | HAVOC::BLAKE | Common Sense,The Most Powerful Weapon | Fri Dec 04 1987 16:30 | 15 |
| Bruce,
I have a small book called "Digital Employment Staff Guide" which
gives me the names, phone #s, and mail stops of all known
DECrecruiters, it's updated 1/4ly. It is not a general personnel
guide, but gives only "employment" personnel information. There
are also "one-liners" next to the names giving a general clue as
to what these folks look for, mine reads like (will soon read like):
H/W, S/W,
Advanced Engineering Development William Blake MLO 3-4/A11 223-6347
Bill.
|
| 410.89 | JOB SEARCHING | BPOV09::YGONZALEZ | | Mon Dec 07 1987 10:50 | 15 |
| I certainly have that that experience from recruiters: "You do
not meet the requirements for this job since you do not have experience
in such and such field". At the present time I am looking for another
job, and has been very discouraging to me.
I have met various recruiters looking for help and advise and has
not been positive at all. I have been told that I need a "mentor",
which I don't have, who can help me since I am looking to change
professional fields.
I really appreciate if you can provide the name of someone in your
Personnel organization who might be helpful to me, or perhaps, I
can send you my resume and you can forward it to them.
Thank you very much!
|
| 410.90 | | VCQUAL::THOMPSON | Noter at large | Mon Dec 07 1987 11:00 | 6 |
| RE: .89 Have you tried the JOBS Conference (OASS::JOBS KP7 to add)?
I'd suggest a base note covering what you want to do with your resume
in a reply. JOBS is read by a lot of hiring managers and may provide
leads in a number of directions. Good luck.
Alfred
|
| 410.91 | REPLY RE:410.90 | BPOV09::YGONZALEZ | | Mon Dec 07 1987 11:22 | 1 |
| Thank you for your quick response.
|
| 410.92 | All Is Well????.......... | HAVOC::BLAKE | Common Sense,The Most Powerful Weapon | Tue Jan 05 1988 14:24 | 7 |
| Nothing new here in quite a while, you folks all set???
I was kinda hoping to get a few questions from some of the folks
that seemed to be having the problems, felt that there was some
substance to some of the complaints, no??
Bill.
|
| 410.93 | Here's several.... | COMET::AIKALA | Lamborghini Countach under Iacocca. | Wed Jan 06 1988 10:14 | 36 |
| Hi Bill,
I have a question for you maybe. It's not a problem (or maybe it
is), but it does have me wondering.
I went to interview in another state with the hiring manager directly.
I was contacted by him and was told that the next time I was in
the area to get in touch with him and he would give me an interview.
I was also told he couldn't hire at the time (August).
So in August, I contacted him, he gave me an interview, said he
had my resume', again stated his position about hiring capability,
and more or less told me to stay in touch to see if that situation
changed.
About two months later, I heard rumour that positions at that plant,
specifically, the one I was nterested in, would soon go open req.
I could never again contact the manager, by phone (not in) or mail
(never received a reply). So I sent a resume to the personnel
recruiter. She received it, I finally learned after finally landing
her by phone after two straight weeks of phone dailing. She said
yes, she received my resume' and she gave it to the manager who
would be posting the position. Who was the manager I asked, and
it was the same one I interviewed with, so at least he was still
there.
But he already had my resume' and apparently didn't state this
fact to the personnel rep, so it makes me wonder if how we went
about the whole first interview was kosher. Should personnel
have been notified? What would happen if the personnel rep
knew about the first interview? Where do I stand? The position
still hasn't been opened, do I just stay in contact with the
pesonnel rep?
Sherman
|
| 410.94 | Communication is the key | HAVOC::BLAKE | Common Sense,The Most Powerful Weapon | Wed Jan 06 1988 14:27 | 36 |
| Sherman,
My opinion, about the first "interview" you had, is that the manager
was more curious than ready to hire. It's sort of a "between the
lines" interpretation, based on "if you're in the area". What I
get out of that is that he/she doesn't see many (any) internal
candidates and thought there might be something. Ultimately he/she
will have to justify an expensive relocation (I'm assuming your
located on the east coast), if not to his/her management, at least
to his/her budget.
There is another part, which galls me, that says : If Sherman is
a candidate then either hire him or tell, straight out, that you
can't afford it----- don't leave the candidate hanging!!! If Sherman
is not a candidate then tell him that and why not! Seems like common
courtesy is being forgotten.
I would want to hear the managers and recruiters story, but sounds
like no communication there. I would suggest that you send a registered
letter to the manager, return reciept requested. Restate your interest,
and tell him/her that your interested enough to consider the group
(if you are) and adult enough to understand (reasons) why they may
choose not to make an offer. If you get a "dear john" with clearly
stated reasons, then, at least you have the option to enhance your
background to be a more "attractive" candidate in the future. If
you play your cards right, in that case, you may find this manager
seeking you out in the future.
Overall there is nothing wrong with contacting the manager directly;
after all the recruiter and manager are "partners" both trying to
achieve the same end. I never fail to remind my managers (partners!)
that if we both recruite we'll fill the position nearly twice as
quickly. Right now I'd almost kill for two super-star class logic
designers to work on Personal Vax.
Bill.
|
| 410.95 | Ditto... | ADVLSI::HADDAD | | Wed Jan 06 1988 18:15 | 13 |
| Re: .94
Bill:
Please refrain from advertising what you need and who you'd
"kill for" in this Notesfile.
I think I've asked this of you before (see 410.31), and
I'm sure you've simply "slipped" in an accidental ad.
Have you ever considered a position in Sales?
Steve.
|
| 410.96 | | DIEHRD::MAHLER | Boycott CARBUFFS! | Wed Jan 06 1988 18:39 | 7 |
|
Why does it bother you so much? What Bill is doing can only
help DIGITAL. Why don't you join Corporate?
|
| 410.97 | Thanks, but.. | ADVLSI::HADDAD | | Wed Jan 06 1988 19:32 | 9 |
| In fact, my feeling is that Bill's comments have been extremely
helpful and very informative. And I expect that with his drive and
motivation, some good will come out of all this. Wouldn't mind having
him as *my* recruiter!
But this note is not a JOBS Mart. Short and simple. End of that
discussion.
Steve.
|
| 410.98 | can managers solicit a particular person? | 38648::MACKIN | Jim Mackin, VAX Prolog: More LIPS/MIPS | Wed Jan 06 1988 22:55 | 4 |
| I remember hearing awhile back that it was against company policy
for a manager to actively recruit someone, i.e. ask someone if they
would like to work for you when that person did not initiate the contact.
Any truth to this?
|
| 410.99 | no, and yes | REGENT::MERRILL | FONT is a 4-letter word | Thu Jan 07 1988 09:05 | 11 |
| Bill is looking for people FOR someone else - that's his job. I
would not say he was "advertising" because of the lack of specifics.
You do not want managers "raiding" other groups, so there is a policy
discouraging cold calls to recruit someone. However, it is quite
easy to ask a likely candidate, "Do you know someone who could do
<exciting project>?"
Rick
Merrill
|
| 410.100 | As you would care to be treated..... | HAVOC::BLAKE | Common Sense,The Most Powerful Weapon | Thu Jan 07 1988 11:00 | 22 |
| Re. .98:
I generally agree with .99. There is, however, a more formal way
to accomplish the same end without "fear" of causing any hard feelings
or being in violation of policy:
Simply approach the manager of the employee and ask him/her if they
would mind you speaking with the "candidate". I have never heard
of this type of request being turned down.
In the case where you "bump" into a prospective candidate its well
within policy to discuss your HR needs *informally* (the distinction
is simply that you don't have other members of your group
participating, its strictly a 1/1). To totally cover your bases,
if the employee shows interest, ask the candidate to have
a chat with his/her current manager, or do as I suggest in the above
paragraph.
If you have any concerns not covered by the above, consult your
recruiter or personnel rep.
Bill.
|
| 410.101 | To be left hanging is like a smoker w/o cigarettes | COMET::AIKALA | Lamborghini Countach under Iacocca. | Fri Jan 08 1988 09:26 | 70 |
| BOY! That's the last time I try to enter a note here while in this
conference. That's the 3rd time I've come to the end of the text only
to find out "NETWORK ABORTED LOGICAL LINK." From now on, I'm creating
the text outside of this conference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Bill,
I have to agree with you on leaving someone hanging. I've been trying for
a little over a year now to migrate to California via DEC and have been
hanging just about that long. BTW, I'm in Colorado.
Leaving the particular destinations anonymous, I have applied to several
locations out there. This is not meant to pick on the west, it's just
the only experience I have to expound on. Every resume' I have sent has
taken anywhere from two to six weeks to learn that they even received
the darn thing. EVERY time I did learn it was received was because "I"
finally landed the personnel rep.
I have left messages (there must have been pages of memo's on the desk
of applicable personnel rep) with the message center, I have left a
home phone number complete with answering machine, I have left three
different DTN extensions, I have sent E-mail both in DECMAIL and VAXMAIL
format. Still, in every case where I finally learned something, it was
because I was making the effort, not once the other way around, and this
is not exaggeration.
I also know someone in California who managed to snag the personnel
rep once on the phone. Said person told the rep to call me right then
if she would please, because I was at that moment standing by the phone
at work. Personnel rep told my contact to have me call her back in
5 minutes because she absolutley had to go to the bathroom. Guess
what? It would be another two weeks before I finally nabbed her again.
Granted, a person gets busy. But if they're THAT busy, how about having
another person get in contact with the desperate job seeker? Leave a
message with someone, so that it can be relayed. I work in a customer-
orientated group. We would fry here, if one person came forth with such
a blatant disregard in communication courtesy. We have stringent corrective
action for lesser disregards.
Howver, the last thing I will do is try to go above someones head, or
raise hell. It's hard enough as it is to get out there, and I have
a bad feeling it would worsen should I try to get a little more
common courtesy. It is the hardest, most frustrating thing in the world
to be the employee who is isolated from they who are making all the
decisions, or who have the keys to the gateway you're trying to access.
I would like to be there, to personally walk into the personnel reps
office for some straight answers when I need them, instead of having to
rely on day-to-day long distance attempts, placing mega-phone calls,
sending endless E-mail messages, and all the while your stomach is
churning inside, because you may have already lost the position to a
local candidate who has the "homeboy" advantage, thanks to all the
time that is passing. How am I supposed to know that in all the
time it takes just to get a confirmation on my resume', that they
haven't already found their man/woman?
That is why it is necessary to get a prompt receipt of your resume'.
It helps so much to know it got there, to hear them say whatever
they have to say, i.e., you're in the running, we need to schedule
an interview, or, we've already filled the position, or, you're
qualified but you'll need to get here on your own means, whatever.
Knowing something early on takes away alot of anxiety.
Sherman
|
| 410.102 | Particular problem... | CIRCUS::JG | Jim Gettys, Systems Research Center | Fri Jan 08 1988 17:25 | 8 |
| Before you go make a flap; Northern California personnel hired
a very nice man to help them with their recruiting problems less than
six months ago.
He died of a heart attack a couple weeks ago. Needless to say,
this is not helping the situation. As yet, there is no replacement
I know of, and given the current hiring situation, it is less than
clear it will be fixed anytime soon.
|
| 410.103 | He who hesitates... | KIM::PENNINGTON | All that's gold doesn't glitter | Tue Jan 12 1988 20:32 | 16 |
| Just to add my own 2 cents to this topic, I was EXTREMLY frustrated
by recruiters in the Washington, DC area recently. We were told
that there were many openings of all levels in the technical fields
(not to mention a chronic problem in administrative areas) and that
we should forward the names of anyone we knew who might be interested.
I sent the names and resumes of two people, both of whom had at
least 8 years of experience with DEC hardware and software, and
both of whom were very interested in working for Digital. After
getting the run around for several weeks, I called the managers
who were doing the hiring, and they assured me that they had never
heard of these people or seen their resumes. To make a long story
short, boot subsequently took positions outside of Digital, one
as the head of MIS at Washington National Airport, the other as
a configuration specialist at a large corporation that manages over
60 some hospitals. It is evident that both are very qualified and
capable people, and it is this companies loss that they work elsewhere.
|
| 410.104 | let's keep the discussion going | HUMAN::CONKLIN | Peter Conklin | Tue Jan 12 1988 22:38 | 23 |
| � One reader complained about a few recent topics. The following is
the feeling of one of the moderators. Other moderators concur that
the existing notes are not out of line, i.e., they are acceptable.�
I don't think he's out of line at all. I believe that the comment
about recruiting is based on Bill's saying he needed a person of
some kind badly. xxxx made similar comments, as those in the
mail, in HUMAN::DIGITAL the same day he sent the mail. Though the
words were stronger in mail then in the note. I did not think the
'advertisement' was an abuse let alone a blatant abuse. It was an
off hand comment relating to the issue being discussed.
Even if it were a blatant recruiting attempt, posting that you are
looking for a person of a given qualifications is nothing like going
to a specific individual and asking them if they'd like a job. I
believe that Bill's comment is well within the letter and the spirit
of policy and acceptable recruiting practices as I understand them.
xxxx's "three strikes and you out" comment I *do* find out of
line. As is his apparent attempt to sound like "the powers that be".
I know he's not a moderator and unless he's in upper management I think
he came down a little strong for my taste.
|
| 410.105 | The "other" side.....???? | HEIDI::BLAKE | Common Sense,The Most Powerful Weapon | Wed Jan 13 1988 12:48 | 36 |
| Re. .103:
>We were told....
Did you send *them* copies of the resumes? In any complex loop,
if one exists, its better to send more rather than less. I realize
that this may seem wasteful, but whats an extra stamp or so in such
a case? In any case where you know who the hiring manager is send
to both him/her and the recruiter, maybe even a note to the recruiter
saying something like, "copies of this/these have been sent to manager
X, to speed the process".
>.... all levels in the technical fields....
From your brief discription of what the candidates ultimately got
for new jobs sounded like they were management types getting very
high salaries. I realize that this is speculation on my part, but
it appears to be within the realm of your note.
> I called the managers, and they hadn't seen the resumes.....
Was it too late at that point or did the managers drop the ball
as well?
I suggest, if you feel strongly, that you send letters/E-mail into
that personnel chain of command. I have done some speculating with
your note, but fully realize that WDC recruiting might be totally
responsible. If thats the case, then a letter from you might speed
the "healing" process. If you choose to make no input, you have
no reason to expect even one iota of change.
As part of DEC's recruiting "machine" I appreciate your efforts,
and, dispite your experience, encourage you to keep at it.
Bill.
|
| 410.106 | Nice idea, but...... | CANYON::ADKINS | A shorter Personal Name | Wed Jan 13 1988 17:46 | 23 |
| > I suggest, if you feel strongly, that you send letters/E-mail into
> that personnel chain of command. I have done some speculating with
> your note, but fully realize that WDC recruiting might be totally
> responsible. If thats the case, then a letter from you might speed
> the "healing" process. If you choose to make no input, you have
> no reason to expect even one iota of change.
Having gone through this in the semi-recent past,
I got the strong feeling that boat-rocking was not welcomed.
Bill, I think that your concept is a good one, but one that I haven't
found to be very realistic. Personnel, not unlike some management
types, do not want to hear the errors of their ways. I'd like to
be more positive about effecting change, but I seriously wonder
who is listening.
I can sympathize with the frustration on .-2. My job leads came
via the grapevine, not the official channels.
Ex-DCer,
Jim
|
| 410.107 | Another candidate "left hanging" | XCELR8::HARDY | What, no wiseacre comment? | Thu Jan 21 1988 07:17 | 55 |
|
Hi all,
I had hoped my first note in this file would be more positive,
but unfortunately, I recently was involved in a situation much like
the person in 410.101...
I am a temporary contractor (lead operator) who has worked with
DEC products for a few years now, and would dearly love to be a
permanent employee...As new jobs are being posted all the time on
the VTX (despite the freeze since October) and also being advertised
(marketing, finance, and hardware engineering, at least) in the
Boston area and southern NH papers, I was given to understand that
a site with critical manpower needs and customer support responsi-
bilities could get a waiver...
I have sent out about 30 resumes and cover letters to DEC sites
in these areas, with most sites at least acknowledging receipt within
2-4 weeks. However, about three weeks ago, I received a phone call
from a manager at one of the sites to whom my resume had been forwarded
by a recruiter. I was invited to come in for an interview, which
I did, driving through a winter storm, and waiting about an hour
for the manager to arrive. We had a nice talk and a tour of the
facility, and several days later I was invited back for a second
interview with the employee currently holding the job in which I
was interested (Wage Class 4, about 2 levels "above" my current
position). We also had nice, hour-long talk, and I was told that
the manager would contact me very soon, as the position was critical
and people were running around there doing three or four different
jobs apiece.
Nine days later, I called and was told the manager was tied
up in a meeting until lunch. I left my name and number, and tried
again in midafternoon, only to be told that the manager was now
gone until the following week (four more days). On that day, I
again had to call, and was then told the manager was out sick. I
asked if anyone was available that could advise me as to my current
status in regard to the open position, and was told by the party
answering the phone that the manager "...can't hire me because of
the freeze..." At no time during our phone conversations, or during
the interviews, was the hiring freeze discussed, until that last
conversation.
Now, everyone in the world knows that DEC has a hiring freeze,
so why post openings in the VTX network and bring people in for
multiple interviews at sites where manpower needs are supposedly
critical if they can't be hired? It has now been three weeks, about
six phone calls on my part, and two VAXmail messages, and I still
have received no word or even courtesy acknowledgement from this
particular site. In addition, I've heard similar tales of woe from
other employees, temporary and permanent, in this area...
DEC is going to have difficulty attracting qualified personnel
if this is a typical example of recruitment practices and common
courtesy. I guess I just don't understand why our job searches
have to be so aggravating at a company that is supposed to be in
the top ten of companies to work for in America.
Thanks for the opportunity to sound off...
Disappointed Dave
|
| 410.108 | Answer to .107 | CLUE::CODY | | Thu Jan 21 1988 08:06 | 7 |
| Re .107
You are right when you say the hiring manager should have told you
about the freeze and how it affected his group.
The reason jobs are posted and interview's conducted during a freeze
is so that as soon as the freeze lifts hiring managers can make
offers immediately.
|
| 410.109 | Yes, but are we playing fair? | TLE::SAVAGE | Neil, @Spit Brook | Thu Jan 21 1988 11:22 | 14 |
| Re: .017 &.108:
I've just started to become involved in the interviewing process and
have some misgivings about our recruiting motives. In discussing the
situation here I find a motivation much like that described in .108.
Hiring managers seems to regard interviewees like "money in the bank";
when the freeze opens a crack, they can quicky draw on their interview
"accounts." Also, there is the "hot prospect" perspective -- maybe
this is the one-guy-who's-so-good-we-can-get-a-waiver.
My concern is this: Are we leveling with the interviewees, or stringing
them along? Do they understand the conditions as the hiring manager
knows them to be, or are they naively expecting this is a straight
forward hiring interview, with a real job up for grabs?
|
| 410.110 | The Frustration is Real.. | WRECKS::BLAKE | Learning Every Day, Growing All The Time | Thu Jan 21 1988 13:30 | 52 |
| Re. .107, .108, .109
The *reason* that things are so mixed up is that a "freeze" isn't
really always a freeze. Managers tend to think that their projects
are all "critical" path in nature and that if they find the "right"
candidate they will be able to hire. Roumers don't help matters,
by the time news of a hire up at ZKO gets down to MLO it appears
that the ZKO facility is on a hiring binge. Managers run off half
cocked, crank up the interviewing process, set expectations and
then top it off by being rude (mostly I believe that they are too
embarassed to speak directly with the candidate).
During these "times" I tell the candidate, up front, before interview
what our situation is and let them decide. When an external hire
is indicated I make sure we have all the authority before I start
sourcing, that way we move smoothly through the hiring process.
The "bank-the-applicant" trip rarely works out. If a candidate is
strong enough to be able to get a DEC offer there are plenty of
other corporations that will/do think so also. Candidates, who are
career minded rarely put all their "eggs" in one basket, hence DEC
looses, but does gain plenty of wasted time. Interview time can
cost up to $400/hr, never mind travel expenses.
The real or at least semi-real *reason* for these hiring haitus'
is to get our employee/gross revenue ratio in line with our industry
competitors. IBM is ~$136K/employee, AT&T is ~ $110K/employee, and
DEC is ~$65K/employee. Some people I've spoken with say that the
figure is "right" for our time/place in the market, I don't buy
it, I think we have a problem. I appologize for bringing this up
without a solution, none of the options I can imagine are attractive.
The hiring freeze is the *easiest* method of controlling the employee
part of the ratio, this assumes that revenue will continue to grow,
I hope so.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, managers are told that lack of workforce
is an unacceptable excuse for poor project performance. I don't
envy the squeeze that puts our managers in, I can excuse them some
craziness in hiring. The alternative is to "redeploy" current group
members to get a replacement requisition(s) to hire someone with more
"horsepower". Sends the message "grow (fast) or go" to our employees.
I see some solutions, but they are not without risk. (are we getting
too conservative??)Implementing a quarterized hiring plan keyed
to projects, giving our managers some REAL authority, making them
totally accountable for delivery, getting them to be less "turf"
consciencious......
Sorry if I haven't answered your questions, the "flavor" is here,
though.
Bill.
|
| 410.111 | | DIEHRD::MAHLER | Engineer | Philosopher | Traveler | Thu Jan 21 1988 14:43 | 4 |
|
Amen in a Chorus Full of A-men. Hear ye HERE YEE!
|
| 410.112 | | DELNI::SILK | serving time | Thu Jan 21 1988 20:53 | 9 |
| But maybe some of these hiring practices result in the hiring of people
who contribute to keeping that productivity-per-worker figure low?
Is there a cyclical effect here?
DEC sure does have a hard time getting itself together to grab the
best candidates, as a whoooolllleee lotta complaints in a previous
note pointed out!
Nina
|
| 410.113 | TRYING TO HELP CHANGE THE PERCEPTION | VENOM::ALVARADO | | Wed Feb 10 1988 13:11 | 14 |
| HELLO OUT THERE....I HAVE JUST FINISHED READING 112 STATEMENTS
REGARDING RECRUITNG IN DIGITAL. I AM AN EMPLOYMENT CONSULTANT AND
FOUND IT QUITE INTERESTING. WHEN I WASN'T IN EMPLOYMENT I, MYSELF,
EXPERIENCED MOST OF THE SITUATIONS SOME OF YOU ENCOUNTERED. WHEN
I BECAME A RECRUITER, I VOWED THAT I WOULD NOT LET ANY OF MY CLIENTS
GO THROUGH, WHAT I HAD GONE THROUGH. I BELIEVE EVERYONE SHOULD
BE RESPECTED WHETHER YOU ARE AN APPLICANT, A HIRING MANAGER, OR
SOMEONE JUST LOOKING FOR INFORMATION.
I AGREE WITH BILL BLAKE IN ALL THAT HE STATED TO HELP YOU BECOME
MORE EDUCATED IN THE AREA OF EMPLOYMENT.
REGARDS,
SARA ALVARADO
|
| 410.114 | Helpful Hint | CELICA::RAYNA | Rayna Shine... | Fri Feb 26 1988 17:40 | 29 |
|
Re: 113 Hi Sara! Glad to see you utilizing notes!!!
It would be very helpful to Recruiters and Personnel Organizations
if Employees would put their BADGE NUMBER at the top of their resume'.
This way, recruiters could input the BADGE # into TESS (Total
Emmployment Staffing System - used to match applicants with requisitions)
and the name and other related information about employees could
be pulled directly off the EMF (Employee Master File). There is less
chance for errors this way (as long as your EMF record is up-to-date;
check with your PSA to make sure) and would help to eliminate duplicate
applicants in the TESS database. When employees send their resumes out
to several recruiters, they are not always entered under the same exact
name. Thus, TESS views them as different people and this makes it difficult
for TESS to perform the job it was intended to do - match applicants with
requisitions.
Thanks for your co-operation on this matter! Happy Job Hunting!
Regards,
Nancy Rayna
Personnel Data Systems
TESS and VTX JOBSBOOK support
(Questions/comments/suggestions? Please send mail to HOMBAS::JOBSBOOK)
|
| 410.116 | Sayonara | VIKING::TARBET | Clorty Auld Besom | Mon Feb 29 1988 17:31 | 8 |
| <--(.115)
Sad t'hear that, Bill; you have always sounded like the sort of
recruiter DEC ought to have a lot more of!
Best luck!
=maggie
|