Conference 7.286::digital

    I'd suggest you study the P&P manual, and if you still have questions,
    see your PSA or personnel rep.

Have they really changed the policy?  When I bought my first house when
DEC relocated me from Columbia, S.C. to Charlotte, N.C. (moved the entire
SWS and sales group (me and one salesman!)) house purchase expenses were
not covered.

Even if they haven't changed, special policies often apply, negotiated for
the whole group by the group manager, when a large group moves.

/john

    re: .1  As I pointed out in .0, I have consulted the P&P manual.
    I'm interested in first-hand experiences people have with this policy
    in action. Sometimes that can vary widely from the stated policy.
    

	The announcement of the planned new complex in Atlanta has also prompted
these questions.  The Area F & A guy said that some employees will qualify if
thier commute distance has increased by 10 or more miles.

	Folks in Atlanta also would like to hear war stories!

    
    My case is somewhat different, in that I looked for a job elsewhere
    and moved. I was however a first time home buyer (all because of
    DEC relocation benefits). 
    
    I recently moved from the Worcester, Mass. (Mill) to Chicago (Area
    Office). I bought a house in Illnois. I was able to claim:
    
    	- building inspection fees
    	- attorney's fees

    	- loan application fees
    	- closing costs (upto a 3 points)
    	- title search related fees
    	- stamps (state, local, etc) for the title
    	(I took my closing statement to personnel and let then figure
	    out what I could get reimbursed for. It looked like I got
    	    reimbursed for just about everything on that statement except
    	    for taxes of any form and cash towards the cost of the house).
    
    	- TV cable/antenna hookup
    	- washer/dryer installation
    	- New house: telephone lines
    	- Move from out of state: driver's license fees, car registration
          fees, etc.
    
    I didn't claim everything I have listed here. But let me say that
    if it wasn't for the DEC relocation policy I wouldn't have bought
    the house. I was able to get about $7000 from DEC. Out of this $5000
    didnot have to come from my pocket. THe $2000 is miscellaneous
    allowance for moving into a house. ($1000 for an apartment). I am still
    waiting to find out how much is taxable, etc.
    
    As far as group moves are concerned, I don't know.

    There's a very comprehensive book called U.S. Relocation Guide,
    Current Employees (EA28011-85 6/85 61 8.0).  There's a different
    book for new hires, be sure you get ther right one.
    
    As for eligibility:
    
    "For relocation to be paid, the employee's new work location must
    be more than 30 miles from his or her current home and the new work
    location must increase the employee's commuting distance by a minimum
    of 10 miles.  In addition, the new home must be at least 10 miles
    closer to the new work location."
    
    Note these are different than the rules used by the IRS in determining
    deductability of moving expenses.
    
    Steveg

    There is no problem if you're moving from a house to a house.  
    .0 wants to move from an APARTMENT to a HOUSE.   I don't think the
    relocation rules allow it, but it's worth looking into because of
    the group move nature.   Check with personnel.

    .7 is correct. I'd like to move from an apartment into a house if
    my job moves. Why?
    
    Well, first, of course, the obvious reasons. It's better to own
    than to rent. But also because virtually anyplace we'd move would
    vastly increase our housing costs, rent or buy. If our costs are
    going up so much, I'd be foolish not to buy. In fact, if we moved
    to another apartment, with the rent increase we'd face, we'd never
    be able to buy.
    
    If my job wasn't moving I wouldn't move. I like where I am. But
    as it happens, the move would increase my commute by 15 unpleasant
    miles to a fairly hefty 38 miles, so I feel I must do it.
    
    I posted this question in the TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE file (#195) and
    have several replies. Some people say they have bought their first
    house by virtue of the DEC relo benefits. I'm starting to like the
    sound of this -- except for where I'll be working and where I'll
    be leaving.
    
    DC

    re .7	When I worked in NRO, I rented an apartment.  I got
    transferred (along with 800 other people -  THAT's a group relocation!)
    to WMO,  and took advantage of the Relocation Benefits to buy a
    condo.  There was *no way* I could've afforded to buy anything if
    it weren't for the DEC benefits.   The benefits I got from DEC because
    of the move totalled close to $10K.  (with almost no significant
    increase in tax liability, since DEC was kind enough to throw in
    the "tax adder" to help out).    Thanks to DEC, I now own a very
    nice condominium for exactly 99 cents/month more than what I had
    been paying for rent before the move,  and my savings account actually
    still has some money in it!
    
    re .8 and .0:    Here's the bad news for you:
    	As I understand the Relocation Policy,  the *difference* between
    		a.  Distance from "present home" to "present work site"
    and		b.  Distance from "present home" to "new work site"
    must be 30 miles or more to be eligible for relocation benefits.
    
    In my case,  the distances were:
    		a.  10 miles
  		b.  45 miles
    
    Difference =    35 miles     (I'm eligible)
    
    In your case,  if I understood correctly,  the difference would
    only be 15 miles?
    
    		a.  23 miles
    		b.  38 miles
    
    Difference =    15 miles     (not eligible)
    
    I suggest that you talk to your PSA,  ask for the booklet about
    Relocation,  give him/her your mileages,  and ask him/her to check
    it all out for you and give you the poop, the whole poop, and nothing
    but the poop.   That's what they're paid for.
    
    Good luck!
    

RE: < Note 300.9 by YAZOO::D_MONTGOMERY "Don Montgomery" >
                -< Relocation is nice!  ...if you're eligible. >-

>    	As I understand the Relocation Policy,  the *difference* between
>    		a.  Distance from "present home" to "present work site"
>    and		b.  Distance from "present home" to "new work site"
>    must be 30 miles or more to be eligible for relocation benefits.
    

	You and the Southern Area Management team have some different 
understandings!  The latest memo (yesterday) from the Southern Area team says 

"30 miles from the new location, increased commute by 10 miles, AND can move 
at least 10 miles closer" gets you eligible for reloc bennies!


	If someone who knows how could copy the appropriate part of the Policy 
and Procedures VTX infobase into a reply, this whole discussion would have
some firm footing! 

    Go by what you have *in writing* from your own management.
    
    When our group moved from PKO to OGO, I received relocation benefits
    and the distance between the two work sites, for me, was < 5 miles. I
    had already been commuting > 30 miles, so the new site made it � 34
    miles. It permitted me to afford to purchase my first home.  I had been
    renting a house before that.
    
    The process was very painless and has happened again for me when
    we were relocated from OGO to WFR.  At that time, I purchased a
    larger house and, again, everything was very smooth.  The vouchers
    were processed quickly and I received money that seemed like a
    windfall. 

    Whats a PSA :-)
    
    In 1977 I moved from the Mill to Merrimack,nh from apartment to
    a house.  I couldn't have afforded a house if it were not for the
    move benifets.  this was a group move.

    In 1984 I moved from Merrimack to TWO (armpit of DEC).  it was an
    individual move.  again full bennies including selling my merrimack
    house to home equitity.
    
    In 1986 I moved from TWO to Merrimack.  This time I did not qualify
    as my house was less distance away.
    
    there were other moves before 1977, too many to mention, but did
    not include houses.
    
    the difference in the last three moves is who wanted me to move.
    The manager wanted me to move to Merrimack and then to TWO.  Full
    benefits in a gray area.  The last move from TWO to Merrimack I
    wanted to move (change groups).  I did not win in the gray area,
    but the new job more than compensated me in type of work.
    Your manager is the key individual.  If you are wanted water can
    move.
    
    ed
    

    Well, I got to .8 before deciding to reply.  If the correct answer
    is in .9-.12, forgive me for being redundant.  
    
    In the 3.5 years I've been with DEC we've moved 3 times, so I've
    got some experience to add.  
    
    1) the real experts are the personnel people, so LISTEN to them,
    and NOT other noters, there is a lot of misinformation in these
    conferences.
    
    2) despite 1, here's some information:
    
    3) it makes NO difference whether you are renting now, if you wish
    to buy a house.
    
    4) the most important thing is this.  In order to do a paid relo,
    a relocation authorization MUST be signed by the incoming cost center
    manager, and the incoming personnel person.  
    
    5) 4 means that the incoming manager must agree to pay relo expenses.
    that is based upon business reasons.  If they have not discussed
    that with you prior to your accepting the position, then you may
    be s.o.l..  It will be strictly up to them.  
    
    6) if the incoming manager agrees to pay relo expenses, there is
    still some room for negotiation.  It all depends on how badly they
    NEED you.  
    
    7) check the jobs VTX infobase, it will show jobs that relo funds
    are allocated for, and those that don't
                                           
    
    an increase of 10 miles doesn't qualify, unless some negotiation
    or exceptions are made.  The formula is 
    
    distance_between_old_residence_and_NEW_location   - 
    distance_between_old_residence_and_old_location   
    
    The difference MUST be 30 miles or more.  
    
    The time to discuss relo benefits is BEFORE accepting a new position,
    NOT after.  
    
    FINALLY, I defenitely could not afford to buy if it was not for
    all that DEC pays; they really pay a lot.
    
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    pnsoehl
                                                                    
    

Below the form feed is the extract from the VTX version of the Personnel 
Policy and Procedures Manual relating eligibility and group moves.


                               INTERNAL USE ONLY
                                  Eligibility

Mileage Requirement - For relocation expenses to be paid, the 
employee's new work location must be more than 30 miles from his or 
her current home and the new work location must increase the 
employee's commuting distance by a minimum of 10 miles.  In 
addition, the new home must be at least l0 miles closer to the new 
work location.

Details of Policy - Once it is decided to relocate an employee, the 
details of the relocation policy should be explained to the 
employee by the personnel representative and cost center manager.

Timing of Relocation - Except in unusual circumstances or when an 
extended training period at a location other than the employee's 
work location is involved, employees are expected to move within 
three months of their date of transfer.  Approval to extend beyond 
three months must be given by the incoming cost center manager and 
personnel representative.

Authorization - In order to start the relocation process a 
Relocation Authorization Form must be completed and signed by the 
appropriate level of management.




                               INTERNAL USE ONLY
                                  Group Moves

From time to time Digital finds it necessary to move portions of
the business from one location to another.  In this circumstance,
the Management of the organization will formally announce  the 
location of the new facility and the date on which the work 
location will change.  Individuals in the work group will be 
eligible for the provisions of the Relocation of Current Employee 
Policy if they meet the mileage criteria under "Eligibility" for 
Section 5.05.

In addition to the standard policy provisions for the relocation 
of current employees, individuals who meet the eligibility 
criteria and whose work location moves less than 60 miles will be 
provided the following in recognition of the group move 
situation:

     o Timing - eligible employees should be permitted to move         
       up to six months before or twelve months after the work
       location change date.  The extended time is meant to meet
       individual needs and to reduce the potential for adverse
       community effect

     o Commuting Mileage Reimbursement - in group move                       
       situations, there may be circumstances when an employee                 
       is subject to unusual commuting mileage.  The employee
       will be reimbursed up to six months for mileage in the
       following instances:

               condition                     calculation

        - employee moves before the       - new home to current                
          work location change              worksite minus old
                                            home to current work-
                                            site; continues until
                                            the work location                  
                                            moves or maximum 6
                                            months

        
        - employee moves after the        - old home to new work
          work location change              location minus old                 
          or employee elects to             home to old work 
          stay in current home              location for maximum
                                            six months or until
                                            move takes place

        - employee is hired or            - new home to old work               
          transferred at new                location minus new 
          location before the               home to new work 
          work location change.             location until group
                                            moves but maximum six
                                            months.

If the employee elects to remain in the old home, monies provided 
to the employee for househunting expenses and commuting mileage 
remain the employee's.

      Contrary to the statement about mileage in .13, the policy
      in .14 says that
      
      1.  The distance between the employee's old home and NEW
      job location must be greater than 30 miles
      
      2.  The distance between the employee's old home and new job
      location must exceed the distance between the employee's old
      home and OLD job location by more than 10 miles
      
      and
      
      3.  The distance between the employee's old home and new job
      location must exceed the distance between the employee's NEW
      home and NEW job location by more than 10 miles
      

      That is, if you take a new job which is at least 10 miles more
      distant from your current residence than your old job, AND
      the new job is at least 30 miles from your current residence,
      AND if you move at least 10 miles closer to your new job, 
      then you may qualify for relocation.
      
      Dave C.
      who qualified once by a tenth of a mile, and who missed qualifying
      once by two-tenths of a mile.

I agree with .13 except for one thing. The real experts are the Household
Goods people in Concord (dtn 251-1246). They guided me thru all 3 moves,
personnel folks in all 3 cases were not familiar with the policy.

Jenna - who knows the policy by heart

	.15 brings a subtle point to mind.  If you have to PROVE you're moving 
closer by 10 or more miles, doesn't that say you have to already have a 
contract on a house?  And possibly NOT have sold the old one, as your reloc 
hasn't been approved until you show the new address?  Possibly a catch-22!

    Having done two relo's, 1)DCO to LVO & 2) LVO to DWS, Jenna is right
    about the Household Goods people knowing the straight skinny on
    how it works. On both moves I found myself telling the personnel
    folk what was in Section 5. "Oh, really?" 

    lee

    Last fall I was moved from MRO to ZKO, an apartment to a house.
    No problem.  The "P&P" does have a separate section for group
    moves.  Read that if it applies.
    
    Also, a hint for federal taxes.  They list explicitly what is
    allowed for relocation.  The paperwork from DEC (they send a simple
    form to you with numbers) means nothing.  You must be able to prove
    everything with receipts.  Also put points for closing on schedule
    A, not the moving expence form.  I almost didn't, and almost got
    a smaller return!
    

    I too am in the group that DAve (.0) works in. I've got a slightly
    different problem with the moving and wondered if anyone knows the
    answers.  (the personel people tell me something that doesn't make
    a whole lot of sense)
    
    
    Currently, i live in Newton and commute to the Mill.  The distance
    is just over 20 miles.  I own a 3 family house with my brother and
    we live in one unit.
    
    The move will make my commute either 35 miles (if I take the fast
    route) or 31.2 miles (if I drive through hudson/marlboro)  under
    these guidelines, I would qualify for a relocation benefit.
    
    
    now comes the sticky part.  They tell that I don't qualify because
    I will not sell my present house.  PERIOD, end of discussion. Now:
    
    	If I sold it to my brother for $1.00 and rented from him, I
    	would qualify.
    
    	I think If I moved out and rented an apartment (now I'm considered
    	a renter) I would qualify.
    
    
    This doesn't seem fair.  I cannot make the decision to sell the
    house.  (my brother and I have an agreement that we'd stay in the
    place for a certain amount of time, about 1/2 of which has passed
    by.  AND anyway, I don't want to sell the house.  I'll be able to
    move out ANYWAY this year some time and the house will pay for itself.
     It is down right stupid to sell something under these circumstances)
    
    
    So, is there any hope?  I'd rather NOT try some underhanded dealing
    with my brother to sell the house for $1.00 to get around some
    rediculous ruling from DEC.   (for that matter, how the hell does
    DEC know what I do for living space? (unless of course I tell them))
    
    
    -bill

Several thoughts about your situation:
        
1.  According to the "group moves" section of the personnel policy on
    relocation of current employees, if you're eligible under the mileage
    criteria, you can move
    
	    up to six months before or twelve months after the work
 	    location change date.  The extended time is meant to meet
  	    individual needs and to reduce the potential for adverse
   	    community effect.

    Does the extra time help you at all?

    2.  It's not clear to me that you are required to sell your house in
    order to take advantage of the other parts of the relocation program
    (moving costs, costs of buying a new house, etc.).  I am currently in
    the process of relocating, including buying a new house and moving.
    I fully expect to close on the new house (and I may even move into
    it) before I'll be able to close on the sale of the old house.
    
    The relocation policy explicitly does not pay for bridge loans or other
    costs of carrying two houses.  But no one has asked me to swear that I
    am trying to sell the old house. If you want to carry two houses,
    I think DEC will let you do it, and will still pay for relocating,
    as long as you *are* moving in order to make your commute reasonable.

    Bob

< Note 300.20 by MILT::JACKSON "Bill Jackson DOESN'T take American Express" >
                                     -<  >-

    I too am in the group that DAve (.0) works in. I've got a slightly
    different problem with the moving and wondered if anyone knows the
    answers.  (the personel people tell me something that doesn't make
    a whole lot of sense)
    
    
    Currently, i live in Newton and commute to the Mill.  The distance
    is just over 20 miles.  I own a 3 family house with my brother and
    we live in one unit.
    
    The move will make my commute either 35 miles (if I take the fast
    route) or 31.2 miles (if I drive through hudson/marlboro)  under
    these guidelines, I would qualify for a relocation benefit.
    
    
    now comes the sticky part.  They tell that I don't qualify because
    I will not sell my present house.  PERIOD, end of discussion. Now:
    
    	If I sold it to my brother for $1.00 and rented from him, I
    	would qualify.
    
    	I think If I moved out and rented an apartment (now I'm considered
    	a renter) I would qualify.
    
    
    This doesn't seem fair.  I cannot make the decision to sell the
    house.  (my brother and I have an agreement that we'd stay in the
    place for a certain amount of time, about 1/2 of which has passed
    by.  AND anyway, I don't want to sell the house.  I'll be able to
    move out ANYWAY this year some time and the house will pay for itself.
     It is down right stupid to sell something under these circumstances)
    
    
    So, is there any hope?  I'd rather NOT try some underhanded dealing
    with my brother to sell the house for $1.00 to get around some
    rediculous ruling from DEC.   (for that matter, how the hell does
    DEC know what I do for living space? (unless of course I tell them))
    
    
    -bill




Bill, why don't you take the mileage allowance for the 3 months 
allowed, and negotiate a deferred relocation package for when you 
do sell the house, since you say you are planning to do that in 
the next year.

    Well, now the questionis moot.  
    
    The group move has ben cancelled, adn I never had to really find
    out what the real ruling would be.
    
    
    We will be moving some time in the future, but I'll cross that bridge
    when I have to.
    
    -bill

    You don't have to sell the house.  You are entitled to the relocation
    benefits given to a person who owns a house, i.e. the closing costs
    etc (I think there are some differences if you already own versus
    if you rent), per the relocation policy.  I just went through a
    similar relocation where we own a 3-family and we lived in one of
    the apartments.  I kept that house and bought another and DEC just
    relocated me according to the policy.  It's none of their business
    whether you plan to sell or keep that house unless you plan to sell
    it to DEC in which case your relocation would cost more.  It should
    just be treated as though you were selling the house yourself, where
    DEC doesn't get involved in the sale process at all, even though
    you plan to keep it.
    
    Read Policy 5.05 for all the details.  Nowhere does it say that
    you cannot keep you current house and still get the relocation
    benefits.
    
    Cathy

A friend of mine transferred from Manhattan to Charolette.  He kept his condo
in NYC (is renting it out) and bought a farm - all under relocation.

Yeah, and he brings his pigs to the office...;^))

K.

     I have a question regarding relo benefits.

     Policy as I understand it is, you will be eligible for the 
     benefits 6 months prior to the move and up to 1 year after  
     the move.

     My wife will be eligible for relo benefits in Febuary. Her
     group is moving in July '88. Given the real estate market 
     right now, we'd like to start looking.

     My real estate agent has told us that if we find a house 
     now, we could sign a P&S and then close when we become 
     eligible for the benefits.

     My question: Does DEC consider the 6 months prior to be from 
     the date of the P&S or the closing date?

     daryll

    RE.: .27
    
    Policy in DEC is more a suggestion than a mandate, I believe that
    it is so by design rather than default. Being in employment, and
    having relocated scores of new hires and transfers, I have much
    experience in this area. The philosophy operating here is to minimize
    the impact of the relocation on the employee. In one case I worked
    it was important for the employees children to finish high school
    at their present location, so we were able to extend the relo benifits
    for 18 months. The key is agreement.* IN WRITING* Simply get the
    sponsoring cost center manager to agree to a time table that suits
    your needs, get it in WRITING, and you're all set.
    
    
    Bill.

Re .27:

>     My question: Does DEC consider the 6 months prior to be from 
>     the date of the P&S or the closing date?

Neither.  The 6 months are measured from the day the GROUP moves.  From the
10-Aug-87 edition of Personnel Policy 5.05 (Relocation & Travel -
Relocation of Current Employees):

Section 15 - Group Moves

"
In  addition  to the standard policy provisions for the relocation of current
employees, individuals who  meet  the  eligibility  criteria  and  whose work
location  moves  less than  60  miles  will  be  provided  the  following  in
recognition of the group move situation:

     o Timing - eligible employees should be permitted to move     
       up to six months before or twelve months after the work
       location change date.  The extended time is meant to meet
       individual needs and to reduce the potential for adverse
       community effect
"

It could be to your definite advantage to attempt to obtain the extension
(as .28 recommends) regardless of the real estate agent's scheme.  Relocation
pays for "Actual and reasonable legal and title fees".  If you have a
lawyer help you draw up your P&S, then you will be more likely to be able
to get reimbursed for the lawyer's fee if you are covered when you incur
the fee.  (Having a lawyer helped, because he deleted some conditions
and added some new ones.  We wouldn't have thought of all of them ourselves).

There is a spiral-bound booklet which explains the relocation policies.
You should attempt to obtain a copy from Personnel as soon as possible.
Especially in the case of a group move, you should be given a copy
eventually anyhow.  However, it wouldn't hurt for you to learn about
the rules a little early.

Also, the UCOUNT VTX server has the entire U.S. Personnel Policies and
Procedures manual on-line.  That is where I extracted the text about
the group move policy.


Onlookers should be aware that the 6 month/1 year timeframe quoted in .27
is for Group Moves.  People making individual relocations should not delay
incurring charges just because they think they have the rest of the year
available.
				/AHM

    Be warned:  the policies are printed in the spiral-bound book, but
    they may have changed since the booklet was printed!  Consult an
    up-to-date orange binder (U.S. Personnel Policies and Procedure)
    or the VTX infobase for the latest.

     Re:.29

     I don't think I was clear on the situation.

     What I really want to know is does the P&S have to take 
     place in the 6 month period?

     Would we qualify if we signed a P&S now and closed within 
     the 6 months prior to the move.

     I've already read all the P&P booklets. 

     thanks
     daryll

>     What I really want to know is does the P&S have to take 
>     place in the 6 month period?

	The point is *talk to the relocating CC manager*.  Anything 
	you work out together is what is important, no matter what the
	P&P date guidlines indicate.  If it is clear that your intent 
	to move is the result of relocation, then you should have no problem.