Conference 7.286::digital

If you're a salaried employee, your own time begins when the job is done.

If you can do the job with your travel on your own time, fine.

If not, and you object to travel (or any other work) outside the normal
working hours, then you have to discuss this with your manager.  Maybe
you can help your manager justify additional manpower.  Maybe not.

/john

    I had never had the luxury of traveling on company time until I
    came to DIGITAL.  Then I found out the customer was being billed
    for 40 hours although I was working 32 (Monday noon thru Friday
    noon) and I started traveling on my own time again.
    
    Marge
    

    Re .2:
    
    Actually, Marge, this brings up an interesting moral question. 
    If you're traveling on company business to address a specific customer
    problem, who should absorb the cost?  The customer (who's obviously
    asked for or contracted for the help)?  The individual employee?
    
    I bring this up because a legitimate case could be made either way.
    If you're "on the job" when you board that aircraft (or climb in
    that car), it can be legitimately argued that you're "working,"
    even if it's just on standby (firemen don't get paid only when they're
    pouring water on buildings).  On the other hand, is "just sitting
    there" worth whatever the per-hour rate is 'til you get there? 
    Or after you've completed the work and are going home?
    
    Opinions?
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Marge,
    
    I'm a little confused.  It is normal and customary business practice to
    charge a customer for travel time.  If you were spending 8 hours a week
    travelling to/from the customer site, then they should be charged for
    that.  I did some consulting for a customer who was 1.5 hours away by
    car.  I was told to charge them for 3 hours of travel and 5 hours of
    delivery every day I was there.  They paid it and didn't complain. 
    So, are you saying that because the customer was being billed for
    the time, you travelled on your own time?  
    
    Anyway, if you are travelling to do a presentation, attend training,
    deliver a demo, or anything that doesn't involve direct revenue,
    I think it boils down to whether or not you can travel during working
    hours and still get your "job" done.  When I was doing a lot of
    travel in my last position, I did most of it in the evenings or
    on weekends.  It was definitely a pain, but I couldn't afford to
    take time away from my "normal" duties.  I also tried to use it
    as justification to get more help.  It didn't work.  In fact, about
    six months later, they decided that they didn't need someone doing
    the job I was doing.  I now have a different job.

    Perry

   Perry,
    
    	The decision was my own.  "Customary business practice" and
    my ability to sleep nights did not jibe.
    
    Marge
    

Look at the SWS Consulting Terms and Conditions.  You'll find that we bill
customers for travel time -- but not for the first 2 (I think; it's been a
few years) hours in each direction.

/john

    I hope that's the case, John... in NORAM Field Service circa '78
    it was not... 
    
    Two hours off each end would have meant that DIGITAL was "splitting
    the difference" with the customer... I'd have been happier with
    that.  The time is indeed non-productive for DIGTAL but it's also
    non-productive for the customer... neither should be required to
    carry the burden.
    
    Marge
    

    Travel time depends on the corporate culture.  On one extreme end,
    U.S. Government regs specify that employees be compensated for travel
    time with comp time.  There are tables and formulas that specify
    how much time is allowed to get to a particular destination.  On
    the other end of the scale, some companies specify that employees
    must travel on their own time.  I don't know if this is actually
    a written policy, but I have a couple of friends that work for two
    different small venture companies.  They do all their travelling
    on weekends and don't get compensated for it (unless you count the
    gross salaries that lured them there in the first place).

    The travel time is, unfortunately, a large part of many jobs.  The
    W4 wage class is predicated on the idea that a 40-hour week doesn't
    work.  I personally detest travel, and fortunately have managed
    to avoid it at DEC.  From this point of view, Marge, I don't think
    you're being fair to yourself: I doubt that either DEC or the customer
    expect you to foot the bill.  You are already performing a large
    service for which both sides should be grateful.  Sleep nights!

    For what it's worth, when I travel from Detroit to Bedford, MA for
    Field Service training, I'm expected to arrive Sunday afternoon
    before the class starts.  Class starts Monday morning, so I can't
    travel Monday morning, and the housing provided (apartments in Lowell)
    aren't ready until Sunday afternoon.  Therefore, I have to travel
    during the weekend.
    
    But, there is a nice side to being WC3 - I get paid overtime for
    my travel...

      This discussion has leaned towards travelling to Customer sites.
    I would be interested in hearing thoughts on cases where WE are
    the customer. As WC2 this barely yet concerns me, but my co-workers
    are salaried, and are out of town close to 2 1/2 weeks per month.
    The vendor doesn't enter into this. The only problem I would have
    with it, is if you accepted a job that was described going in as
    not a travel-required position, and it became one, it should somehow
    be compensated if it impairs your finances or personal life.
      (Now if you always travelled to California or Florida in the winter,
       it would be be a tough job somebody had to do, :-) ...but no,
    Minniapolis in Feb., Pheonix in Aug.   ...... ) 8^


                                            Rick Walker
                                            Vendor Engineering CX0

A am a frequent flyer but I NEVER travel at weekends UNLESS its a life and
death emergency and cannot be avoided OR the task is unavoidable from an
operational point of view (in which case it is planned well in advance and 
I can get time off to compensate). I also avoid travelling in the evenings.

The reasons are two fold:-

	o	Without time to myself with my wife at home to enjoy the 
		life style my salary affords me there would be no point to
		working.

	o	Travelling is *very* tiring and stressful. In order to be 
		at my best to do my job I *need* rest.

DEC employees are human beings and not machines and therefore there is 
a limit to how much you can push them around physically before they crack.
Stress costs this company a lot of money, lets not forget that when we are
auditing the expense accounts!

Dave.

    I do it all ways.  Some times, I will fly on DEC time, others I
    will fly on weekends.  It all depends on the trip.
    
    For example.  My last trip to munich, I traveled on thursday night,
    and arrived on friday morning.  This COULD have given me a weekend
    in munich, but the equipment for training didn't work and I got
    a weekend in the computer room  When I came back, I flew on a friday
    morning, and thus all of that flight time was on DEC.
    
    
    .-1 was right.  Flying is very tiring.  I find that even on short
    flights, I'm really beat by the time I get home.  (Well, maybe it's
    the fighting with the 'T'!)
    
    
    All in all, it comes out in the end.  There's many times during
    the workweek that I come in late, leave early, etc for various reasons.
    I also spend a lot of time traveling.  I figure that what goes around
    comes around, and anyway, I like what I do.
    
    
    -bill

    When I was in Software Services, on the road about 30% of the time
    doing consulting work, usually we didn't bill the customer unless
    they were outside a certain radius from a DEC office. In other words,
    if there was a local office, and they had to bring in a resource
    to satisfy a customer need, there was no travel charged. The customer
    was billed as though the expertise needed was local.   In some cases,
    however, the customer asked for *certain* expertise or *certain*
    individuals for support, and it was written into the contract that
    the customer would be billed (read that arm and leg) for the travel
    expenses.
    
    as for travel, I love it!  I look for the job rec's that have a
    percentage of travel checked in the little box.  The obvious drawback
    is being away from the family.   If you travel on the weekend, talk
    it over with your manager to get some comp time off (WC4 were talking).
    Travel Sunday? Work mon-fri? Travel Saturday or late friday? How
    about  day off on the house next time things slack up?
    
    Travel.. Travel.. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! I love travelin' and seeing new places
    and take advantage of being elsewhere for a day or two...
    
    If all you do is sit in a hotel and grumble that you're not home,
    then you should think about taking more advantage of being 'on the
    road again...'
    
    Cheers,
    
    Gil
    
    

    I do what makes sense:
    
    If I can travel on company time (ie fly Monday and Friday), I do
    it.  This works for things like seminars which are arranged to occur
    on Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday, mid-week meetings, etc.
    
    If I'm going for a week-long session (a 'la Bedford Class), I fly
    on Sunday and Saturday (Flying from the East Coast to Colorado late
    Friday afternoon means I get home in the small hours of Saturday).
    
    Leaving, I take mid-morning flights. Returning I take noon-ish flights.
    This is because it would take a minor thermonuclear device to get
    me going to catch a crack-of-dawn flight (or I'd sleep on the flight
    because I'd get to 6AM by staying up through 5, 4, 3,...). Both sets 
    of flight times get me to my destination in early evening.
    
    I take "light" work with me - stuff I don't need a terminal for
    like documents I need to blue-pencil.  It's also non-critical so
    that if I don't get my blue-penciling done, it won't hurt too bad.
    
    Oh yeah, and if I need to spend a weekend on the road because I
    have meetings on Friday and the following Monday, or the customer's
    system is badly broken...it goes with the territory.
    
    BobW

    Well, not really erelevant for you US guys but the German PP&P Manual
    (Personalhandbuch, Richtlinien und Betriebsvereinbarungen Deustchland)
    says in Chapter 1.81, page 2, paragraph 4.4:
    
    "Am Samstagen sowie an Sonn- und Feiertagen sollen Gesch�ftsreisen
    nicht durchgef�hrt werden; daher werden reisen an solchen Tagen mit
    Ausnahme bei Bereitschaftseins�tzen grunds�tzlich nicht verg�tet".
    
    May be John Covert can provide an accurate translation, but it
    basically says that travel on Saturdays, Sundays or public holidays
    is not allowed (and therefore no compensation if someone does it).
    Exception is e.g. FS standby duty etc.

    The policy also defines overtime pay for job levels <= 6. Travel
    time to customer sites is paid in full, tarvel time to e.g. training
    courses etc. only up to 10 hrs per day.
    

re .13:
    
>    Travel.. Travel.. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! I love travelin' and seeing new places
>    and take advantage of being elsewhere for a day or two...
>    
>    If all you do is sit in a hotel and grumble that you're not home,
>    then you should think about taking more advantage of being 'on the
>    road again...'
    
Yes you are right travel can be fun and it is good to be positive about it.

The point I was trying to put across was that the extra hours put in 
travelling, rushing to catch the plane/train/boat/whatever, finding the 
hotel, finding the office, giving that important presentation is very 
stressfull, more so when it is very frequent.

Some poeple I know take advantage of a trip to Geneva in the ski season - 
great! I cannot for two reasons; 1. I cannot afford the cost. 2. I have a 
wife stuck at home who I miss and who misses me and it must be far worse 
for those with children.

If I traveled once a month or less then I would not care but when its every 
other week or more frequent then it tells.

Dave.

    	Non-DEC consulting firms have some set policies.  A large one
    (bbn) that I worked at said: If travel occurred withing a normal
    8 hour working day, it would be billed as regular consulting time.
    Travel on holidays, weekends, etc. was treated the same as on week
    days: up to 8 hr/day charged.
    
    Examples:
    	start		finish		travel time 	billed
    	8 AM		8 PM		4 hr		8 hr
    	8 AM		8 PM		8 hr		8 hr
    	8 AM		8 PM		2 hr		10 hr
    	Sunday Noon	Sunday 6 PM	6 hr		6 hr
    	Sunday Noon	Sunday Mid.	12 hr		8 hr
    	Midnight	10 AM		4 hr		10 hr  *
    
    * For weird hour work, we'd hit 'em for everything.  - Chris
    

	My travel is built around the customer and available
    flights.  I want to work with the customer according to
    their normal work schedule.  Assume 8 AM to 5 PM and ask
    if much "real work" gets done before 10 AM on Monday or
    after 3 PM on Friday.  Maybe shorter lunches or a few late
    nights will make it "average out".  KO would be happy that
    I try to "do the right thing" for the customer and factor
    in the extra stress of early/late travel vs. hotel costs.
    
    Also there is working EXTRA-Hard while I'm there on site!
    Then I have no trouble sleeping nights or taking "comp" time.

    I spent several years with a heavy travel schedule meeting with
    Digital's suppliers, and another issue became important. The frequent
    travel on evenings and weekends to meet these companies' management
    teams at the appropriate time and place relayed the impression that
    Digital is a busy company with dedicated people. This, in turn,
    pays off when we demand that others go the extra mile to help us
    meet our goals (for example, change their ways to meet inventory
    targets). Digital was often complemented for holding focused meetings
    instead of sending in touring bands in blue.
    
    I am sure that on the revenue side of the business there is value
    in the perception that the traveling Digital person is more interested
    in the work at hand than in setting meeting times for convenience
    or (heavensno!) comp time ...
    
    /Larry

re .19:

Agreed but don't foget it can also create the impression of Digital being
unproffessional when the over-travelled person staggers in looking tired 
and drained.

I do not have to meet external customers or suppliers and hope that the 
skills I bring to the job are enough to impress those I do meet and not 
whether I will throw myself under a truck for the company.

Dave.

    I try to travel on DEC's time, either directly or get compensated
    for using "my" time.
    
    I usually go to 2 or 3 DECI (DECUSes?) a year and arrange the following
    schedule:
    
    	Leave on Sat, Presymposium seminar Sun, work 16 hours a day
    monday thru thursday, 6 or so on Fri, then collapse.
    Fly out late saturday after seeing the local scenary.  I figure
    that sight seeing the last Sat covers being subjected to air travail
    (not misspelled).
    
    	If I wanted to fly around in aluminum tubes for fun I would have
    been a cabin attendant.
          
    	Like a manager I used to work for, I generally try to relax,
    read some paperback or whatever while flying.  Scribbling away at
    some work project while flying seems to me to be a bit of an ego
    trip (look how important I am ... (but I'm flying coach???))
    
    End of flame
    
    /s/ Jim Williams
    
    ps. go ahead, turn me into the bean counters, then they can dragoon
    someone else to go once again to Toronto in Feb, or West coast
    Disney... anytime.

    Regarding Coach....Victor Kiam, the guy who bought Remington Shavers,
    
    'as close as a blade ...or your money back!'
    
    *ALWAYS* travels in the coach section.  According to Victor...
    
    'coach arrives at the same time as first class'.
    8')
    

        And as a boeing engineer once said, "If God had meant for us
        to travel coach, we would all be smaller."
        
        As a 6ft 3inch 240lb person, I find Aircraft Lavatories more
        spacious that coach class.
        
        And I usually do Dec work most of the time when I am flying.
        (Oh, for a keyboard on the plane....)
        

    I also do work on the plane, thanks mainly to my NEC Multispeed;
    640K, MSDOS, 25x80 LCD screen, 2 720K floppies, & battery powered
    for 4-6 hrs.  I don't regard it as being "super important" as mentioned
    in an earlier reply, just making productive use of my time, since
    I cannot sleep on airplanes anyway, almost irrespective of my level
    of fatigue.
    
    On a very full plane in coach, it is impossible to use the computer,
    or really even read something larger than normal magazine-size.
    Newspapers or Computerworld start to infringe of the "space" of
    the passenger sitting next to you.
    
    Also, I am a good-sized person, and on a recent trip, I almost got
    physically ill sitting in the middle seat of a 3-across in coach
    in a fully-loaded coach section, same way for two legs.  On the
    return, I upgraded to first (they didn't have business coach on
    that flight) because the return was equally as full.  No static
    about it from the expense report, and I'd do it again given the
    same situation.  If I can't take that option under these kinds of
    circumstances, my business travel days are over.
    
    Jon

    You shouldn't really be using a computer on an aeroplane, although
    I've seen a number of people doing it. A computer has the potential 
    to interfere  seriously with the navigation and computer systems 
    of the aircraft. 
    
    I flew long-haul about two weeks ago, and we were reminded not to use
    radios, tape-recorders or _any_ electrical equipment, including
    children's toys.. Because of the high-speed switching that goes on
    inside computers, they are _very_ prone to generate interference.
    
    Computers which have been FCC approved usually carry warnings to the 
    effect that "This equipment generates and uses radio frequency
    energy... "  and that  " ...there is no guarantee that interference 
    will not occur in a particular installation."

    I hope this information is useful.
    
    Nigel
        
    

    

    Re .25:
    
    The usual procedure is to check with a flight crew member before
    using anything electronic.  Sometimes it's a "go."  When in doubt,
    if you know anyone who has access to an aircraft, sit inside with
    him or her while she or he turns on the aircraft's radionavigational
    gear.  See if any interference is present (tell your pilot acquaintence
    either to go to a field with a VOT or to fly visually while tuning
    to a VOR for omni check; he or she will know what you mean [even
    if you don't :-)]).  Don't assume that an FCC sticker means things
    are permanently copacetic; it means the item in question passed
    the test _while tested_.
    
    Better safe than sorry.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re .25:
    Flight crew OK is not sufficient!  The owner/operator of the aircraft
    has to give you the OK for *each* aircraft.  I quote from the FAR's
    
    91.19 PORTABLE ELECTRONIC DEVICES
    
    (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person
    may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft
    allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of
    the following U.S. registered civil aircraft:
    	(1) Aircraft operated by an air carrier of commercial operator; or
	(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
    (b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to:
    	(1) Portable voice recorders;
    	(2) Hearing aids;
    	(3) Heart pacemakers;
    	(4) Electric shavers; or
    	(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of
    the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the
    navigation or comminication system of the aircraft on which it is
    to be used.
    (c) In the case of an aircraft operated by an air carrier or commercial
    operator, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this
    section shall be made by the air carrier or commercial operator
    of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In
    the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the
    pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.

    I didn't say that it _would_ cause interference. I said it has the
    potential for serious interference. This is the reason for the
    ban.
    
    In a domestic setting, nearly all personal computers radiate over a wide 
    frequency spectrum, causing interference several hundred yards away.
    
    I know this from personal experience, having both ham radio equipment
    and air band receivers at home. In practice, the metal of the aircraft
    hull would cut out most if not all of this interference, but it's
    a question of risk management. Would you take a 1 in 100 chance
    of disturbing the proper operation of the aircraft? 1 in 1000?
    1 in 100000?
    
    Some airlines seem to be more sensitive to this issue than others. 
    
    I would ask the airline. [On the ground, not in the air -- the flight
    crew are pilots, not technicians]

Different airlines have different attitudes.  For example, the official
policy of British Airways is to allow the operation of any electronic
equipment (except radio/TV receivers which are totally banned by all
airlines) except during takeoff and landing.  I recall that they said that 
malfunctioning equipment on board the aircraft is much more likely to cause 
interference with the navigational systems that anything a passenger may 
use.

jb

    One way of viewing what's business and what's not:
    
    From the company's perspective, your business insurance protection
    is in force from the time your trip begins until the time it ends. 

    Re .27:
    
    Okay, I was recalling 91.19 b(5); I stand corrected to 91.19 c.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

Airlines that allow the use of portable computers at all usually have a 
list of those computers that are approved.  Things like Tandy 102 laptops
are usually on these lists.  Things with disk drives often are not.

Call the airline and ask if your particular computer is on their list.

Also, anything bigger than a Tandy 102 would practically have to be used in 
a First Class seat anyway.  Even a Tandy 200 will have problems if the 
passenger in front of you reclines his seat.

    Since I got my laptop at the end of January (NEC Multispeed *with*
    2 disk drives), I've flown on British Air, Delta, Eastern, United,
    and Pan Am.  I've always asked (before boarding) if it was OK to
    use and the answer has always been yes so far.
    
    It's definitely much easier in Business Coach or (gasp) First Class,
    but in the 3-across coach section, if there's nobody in the middle
    seat, it still works out pretty well.
    
    Jon

    One thing to consider when bringing 'lap top' computers on the airplane
    is their affect on the other passengers.  I remember being on an
    evening flight after a **long** week of out-of-town business.  All I 
    wanted to do was to sleep.  During the four-hour flight, the gentleman
    sitting directly behind me kept his keyclicking going constantly.
    Unfortunately, the plane was too crowded to move.  I asked him if
    he could stop because the noise was irritating, and got some excuse
    about this being a business trip, and he had business to tend to.

    Last month, I took a Swissair flight from Geneva - Zurich - Boston,
    and when going through security there was a LARGE sign saying that
    all electronic devices must be checked in the bagage hold and were
    not permitted to be carried on.
    
    
    Although the trip from Boston - Zurich - Geneva didn't say anything
    about it, and I used my Walkman to listen to tapes.
    
    
    -bill

re: .34,.35

I recall most airlines having a policy of NO electronic equipment being
allowed to be in operation, ala portable PC's, as the EMR/EMF the
equipment generated could possibly foul up the planes navigation/radio
gear.

    The best bet for sleeping in planes is to buy a package of those
    dispoable hearing protectors, which you can get at a gun shop (the
    DEC helicopters used to give them out free - having flown one for
    a while so I don't know if this is still true), and get an eyeshade
    (some airlines have these available anyhow, especially on night
    flights - you can try asking).  The person doing something noisy
    nearby might REALLY need to finish whatever it is, and, anyhow,
    planes are incredibly noisy even if all the passengers are asleep
    (or trying to sleep).

    I took a flight to/from Atlanta this week on Eastern.  For the first
    time ever, something was said about my laptop computer, but it was
    only a statement from the stewardess saying that I shouldn't turn
    it on until we reached cruising altitude, and to please turn it
    off when we started the descent.  According to her, that's the time
    when the majority of the avionics in the cockpit are in use and
    susceptible to interference.  (?)
    
    re .34 and keyclick irritation.  I give my seat-mate a choice. 
    He/she can listen to the sound of occasional keyclicks **OR** he/she
    can listen to regular & high-decibel-level SNORING.
    
    Jon

re .38:
    
>    re .34 and keyclick irritation.  I give my seat-mate a choice. 
>    He/she can listen to the sound of occasional keyclicks **OR** he/she
>    can listen to regular & high-decibel-level SNORING.
    
How considerate of you, I hope you don't identify yourself as a DEC 
employee.

Dave.

    Speaking of computers on airplanes, on a recent flight, the brochure
    from SkyPhone (is that the right name?) said something about in
    the future they would be offering data services?  Now that would
    be cute.  Reading your mail from your airplane seat.  Somehow, I
    suspect it would not be cheap, however.
    
    Burns