Conference 7.286::digital

284.0. "DEC 10 and PDP-6 History Project" by MAY20::MINOW (I need a vacation) Wed Mar 18 1987 12:33

Reproduced from AIList Digest to give it a wider distribution.
(Posted in HACKERS, DIGITAL, and WAR_STORY).  Note that comments
should be sent to Joe Dempster.

From:	RHEA::DECWRL::"[email protected]"
	"AIList Moderator Kenneth Laws" 18-MAR-1987 10:56

AIList Digest           Wednesday, 18 Mar 1987     Volume 5 : Issue 82

Today's Topics:
  Announcement - DEC 10 and PDP-6 History Project,

Date: 16 Mar 1987 1311-EST
From: "Joe Dempster, DTN: 336.2252 AT&T: 609.665.8711"
      <[email protected]>
Subject: Announcement of the DEC 10 and PDP-6 history project
         (PROJECT-10262)


This message originates from 2 sources:

        Les Earnest
        Computer Science Department
        STANFORD UNIVERSITY
        Stanford, CA  94305
        415.723.9729
        ARPA: [email protected]

        Joe Dempster
        DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION
        6 Cherry Hill Executive Campus
        Route 70
        Cherry Hill, NJ  08002
        609.665.8711
        ARPA: [email protected] (MARKET)

The goal of this project is to publish an analysis and history of
the evolution, implementation and use of Digital's 36 bit systems.
This period began with the PDP-6 in 1964 and continues today with
TOPS 10/20 development, which is scheduled to end in 1988.

We are working aggressively to finish the project, and have it
published, by March/April 1988.  This will require that the
completed manuscript be ready to go into the publication cycle
by August 1987!

The project will attempt to answer the following questions:

        1. In what markets/applications were these systems used?

        2. Who were the users of these systems and what impact did
           roughly 2,500 TOPS 10/20 systems have on their organizations?

        3. Who were the principle system architects of these systems?
           What features, and if there had been sufficient time to
           implement them, would have significantly improved the
           architecture?

        4. What impact did the decision to continue to examine design
           extensions to the architecture have on the usefulness and
           acceptability of these systems.  This is in contrast to a
           more common practice today to work from a detailed design
           specification, sometimes dated, building follow-on systems
           which provide increased performance through the use of new
           component technologies and packaging techniques.

        5. What part of the overall design (TOPS10/20) was technology
           dependent and what can still be considered "unequaled" in
           relation to other computer architectures still undergoing
           active development?

        6. What type of development environment (both HW and SW)
           supported and contributed to the evolution of 36 bit
           systems?

        7. What influence did TOPS 10/20 have on other vendors system
           development?

This history will undoubtedly be assembled from many sources and
participants.  Some information will be anecdotal; there will be
interviews with the people involved (users and developers) and technical
papers will be solicited.  Of course there will also be the packaging
and assembly of facts as we see them.

The result will hopefully have sufficient depth to serve as:

        1. An introductory or advanced text on system design and
           hardware/system software implementation.

        2. A analysis of the success and difficulties of marketing
           complex systems into a very crowded market of competing
           alternatives.

        3. A catharsis for those of us who have contributed to the
           development and use these systems and who will now move
           onto new computing architectures and opportunities.

In addition to interviewing directly 25-50 developers, users and
product managers we will continue to work to identify contributors
and significant events up to when the final draft is submitted to
the publisher.  Two "topics" are already under development:

        1. Rob Gingell from SUN is working on a paper which looks
           at extensions to TOPS 20 which would have enhanced its
           capabilities.

        2. Frank da Cruz and Columbia are summarizing 10 years of
           experience and development of TOPS 20 systems.  Some
           effort will also be made to detail the process which
           lead to their selection of a follow-on architecture to
           TOPS 20.

There is a need to develop additional topics which represent the
use and application of the technology (TOPS 10/20) in other areas.
Specific recommendations are welcome as are proposals to develop
them.  A short abstract should accompany any such proposal.  Every
effort will be made to work with individuals or organizations
interested in making such a contribution.

There will be a standalone (no network connections) DECSYSTEM 2020
(YIPYIP) dedicated to supporting the project.  This system has a 3
line hunt group, with all lines accessible from a single number
(201.874.8612).

Both YIPYIP and MARKET will have "public" directories for remote
login (<log>DEMPSTER.PROJECT-10262 <Password>LCGLCG).  MARKET can
be accessed by modem (617.467.7437), however disk quota is limited.
MARKET's primary purpose <DEMPSTER.PROJECT-10262> is ARPAnet TELNET
access.  YIPYIP is a dedicated PROJECT-10262 system.  MAIL can also
be sent to DEMPSTER on either system.

YIPYIP and MARKET will keep a running summary of ideas and comments
up on Columbia's BBOARD software.  KERMIT also runs on each system
for uploads.

SAIL.STANFORD.EDU will support ARPAnet transfers to a "public" area:

        FTP<ret>
        CONNECT SAIL.STANFORD.EDU<ret>
        SEND AFN.EXT<ret>
        DSK: AFN.EXT [PUB,LES]<ret>

SAIL runs WAITS, an operating system similiar to TOPS 10.  File
names are limited to 6 characters and extensions limited to 3.


Implementation details:

        1. User input is welcomed and desired from all application
           and geographic areas.

        2. Input from past and present developers is also desired.

        3. Throughout the project a secondary goal will be to build
           a list of users/locations (installation date, duration and
           disposition) of PDP-6 and KA, KI, KL and KS systems.
           Serial numbers, if available, are requested.

        4. We anticipate that this project will generate a large
           volume of information (which we hope will arrive
           electronically).  Some information, for any number of
           reasons, may not be in line with the project's stated
           goals.  Therefore, all notes, interview material and
           submissions will be donated to the Computer Museum in Boston
           at the the completion of the project to be available for
           future reference and research.

Ideas, contributions, suggestions and criticism are welcome.  As these
36 bit systems were the products of a multitude of people, so too
will be the writing of their history.

    re: .0
    
>    Both YIPYIP and MARKET will have "public" directories for remote
>    login (<log>DEMPSTER.PROJECT-10262 <Password>LCGLCG).  MARKET can
>    be accessed by modem (617.467.7437), however disk quota is limited.
    
    The last I knew, MARKET was connected to the Easynet.  Has public
    dial-in access to this userid been approved by the appropriate
    groups?

>        The last I knew, MARKET was connected to the Easynet.  Has public
>    dial-in access to this userid been approved by the appropriate
>    groups?

    MARKET has had public access via modem for years. Access to the
    EASYNET from there is very closely watched and controlled.
    
    		Alfred

    re: .2
    
>   MARKET has had public access via modem for years.
    
    This is a red herring.  The approval of public access to one userid
    on a system does not imply that public access is, or should be,
    permitted to any other userid on the same system.  Granting public
    access to a userid may require certain userid-specific security
    measures to be in place that the original other of the note posted
    in .0 is either not aware of or has chosen to ignore.

Market is a Dec-20 which has very good security.  It is accessable
over the E-net, ARPA net, and by dial-up.  It is also quite carefully
monitored.

If you have any concerns on this matter, perhaps you should discuss
them off-line with the appropriate individuals, rather than speculate
in a notesfile (where your concerns, if valid, won't get the attention
they deserve).

Martin.

    As a VAXinated TOPS10 system programmer and TOPS20 and RSTS system
    support (guru, nut, wizard, hacker??), I think this idea has GREAT
    merit not only from the historical point of view, but also from
    the point of view of future operating system synthesizing. *ALL*
    of DIGITAL's operating systems had their strong points and it would
    be VERY interesting to bring the history of the first ones together.
    
    I for one would like to believe that if all of the people involved
    in developing the different DIGITAL operating systems got together
    and put their heads together, NO, I repeat NO operating system
    would be able to compete with the superiority of the resulting
    operating system design.
    
    Again, this is an EXCELLENT idea, even if there is no new operating
    system designed. After all, the TOPS series of systems showed the
    world what interactive computing could REALLY do.
    
    
    					Still supporting TOPS10
    					   and RSTS
    					      and last but NOT least
    						     VMS...
    
    							  Warren
    

   "I for one would like to believe that if all of the people involved
    in developing the different DIGITAL operating systems got together
    and put their heads together, NO, I repeat NO operating system
    would be able to compete with the superiority of the resulting
    operating system design."

    Gee, that's just what we did in 1975 when we designed VAX/VMS and its
    initial layered products. (Well, not "all", some did have to work
    on their existing products.) But we did build the VAX team with
    experts from TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, RSX-11D and -11M, RSTS, RT, etc.
    And we made sure that our key designs were reviewed carefully in
    the broadest possible context by more of these experts. I think
    the results speak for themselves.    

     but sometimes they stutter :-)