| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 255.1 | 100,000 of humanity | BISTRO::PATTERSON | dont duke it out=>nuke it out! | Fri Jan 16 1987 09:40 | 11 |
| Doesnt surprise me. Writing in these notes files leaves a person
wiiiide open. You can get hate mail, corrective mail to your personal
account (on the top of this message), phone calls (due to ELF),
and anything else. That's why a lot of women dont sign a 1st name
at the bottom...they get hassled. With 100,000 bodies now...we
got a lot of "zeros"...people out to cause trouble insted of just
have fun.
KMP....where's the control "C" key????
|
| 255.2 | Set pedantry=on | GOBLIN::MCVAY | Pete McVay, VRO (Telecomm) | Fri Jan 16 1987 10:40 | 25 |
| There are a number of written and unwritten rules concerning this
behavior.
1. A case can be made that this is "use of corporate resources for
personal gain"--that is, the person is using DEC information
or facilities in their own private business. Whether this involves
using your DEC account to run a private business or selling inside
information (mailing lists, personnel rosters, new product info)
to outside people, it's still clearly against corporate personnel
policy and you can get fired for it. (That's the ultimate action:
typically, offenders are warned first.)
2. There's also the social rule of appropriate behavior at appropriate
times. A salesman at a private party who attempts to directly
solicit customers is violating social rules of behavior. People
who use the church directory to contact potential clients are
also violating social rules--such directories aren't published
for that purpose. Anyone who starts a social interaction with
one intention and then switches to a second intention without
warning--as appears to have happened in your case--is violating
the rules of fair play and taking unfair advantage of socially
neutral behavior for personal gain.
Translation of 2: I call telephone salespersons lots of rude names and
hang up, because they take advantage of an instant access to my home.
|
| 255.3 | | CALLME::MR_TOPAZ | | Fri Jan 16 1987 10:45 | 8 |
| It sounds as though it would have been much more appropriate for the
person to have mentioned the product in the same public forum (the
conference) as the one in which you originally entered your note.
That way, you, or anyone else with a similar interest, could take
the initiative to contact the perosn to get more information about
the product.
--Mr Topaz
|
| 255.4 | Was NOT the right thing to do | COGITO::WHITE | Bob White | Fri Jan 16 1987 11:22 | 13 |
| > < Note 255.3 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ >
> It sounds as though it would have been much more appropriate for the
> person to have mentioned the product in the same public forum (the
> conference) as the one in which you originally entered your note.
I disagree. Using the notesfiles to make salespitches for products one
sells on the side is NOT "the right thing to do." This to me includes
not only products one sells for money, but a practice particularly
galling to me, that of selling one's religion.
Bob
|
| 255.5 | generally not a good thing to do | BEING::MCCULLEY | RSX Pro | Fri Jan 16 1987 15:18 | 13 |
| I agree with .4 - that is an even more clear violation of the rules
about using corporate resources (the access to Notes conferences)
for personal gain.
I've been giving this quite a bit of consideration, I am about to start
a personal business in a non-work area having a notes conference
dedicated to it, and am trying to rationalize announcing my business in
the conference when it gets started - it is a service business, so
perhaps I can justify a non-commercial announcement as a service to the
conference readership without pushing any sales pitch? Aren't
rationalizations wonderful? :-)
- Bruce
|
| 255.6 | | RDGENG::LESLIE | Andy `{o}^{o}' Leslie, ECSSE. OSI. | Sun Jan 18 1987 15:41 | 5 |
| I guess it depends on whether your 'trait' is connected to the product.
If you suffer from sweat odour and they are trying to sell you
deodourant, fine. If they are trying to sell you a truck, report
them to personnel.
|
| 255.7 | | POTARU::QUODLING | Hedonists of the world... Party! | Sun Jan 18 1987 17:06 | 6 |
| re .-1
Not if you say that you like driving trucks and don't have
one at the moment...
q
|
| 255.8 | | AKOV68::BOYAJIAN | A disgrace to the forces of evil | Sat Jan 24 1987 03:27 | 5 |
| Of course, if you said you like to get high, and he's
trying to sell you drugs, there's more than just ethical
behavior being violated...
--- jerry
|
| 255.9 | | VAXWRK::NORDLINGER | There's no notes like good notes | Sun Jan 25 1987 13:38 | 12 |
| Before I have a list of possible traits attributed to me,
even less complimentary than the ones offered, I'll say
I train as a triathlete and practice yoga. This person
offered a diet/health plan.
The reason I was upset is I didn't think it proper they
should take up my/DEC's time with some personal venture,
so far from this note I've gathered perhaps its not as
serious as I thought which is an unexpected though
appreciated conclusion.
John
|
| 255.10 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Sun Jan 25 1987 14:02 | 19 |
| No, it sure doesn't sound all that serious.
There are two policies involved here: First, the policy on soliciting, which
permits soliciting only during breaks or lunch. Obviously, :-) you are on break
any time you're reading or writing a personal mail message.
Second, the policy on using the systems or network for personal profit, which
prohibits flagrant use, such as mass mailings or running a huge inventory
system, but certainly doesn't prohibit someone from mentioning a business in
a personal message or even using a spreadsheet package to keep a small set of
books for a very small business (as long as none of this interferes with
business use of the systems).
From what you've written in .0, it sounds like this was something somewhere
in between a mass mailing and a personal message, but probably not anything
that would bring huge personal profits or impact the business use of our
systems.
/john
|
| 255.11 | | BINKLY::WINSTON | Jeff Winston (Hudson, MA) | Sun Jan 25 1987 19:39 | 3 |
| What happens when someone ASKS for a referral, and you recommend a
good one who also happens to be an associate, relative, etc. you may
'gain' from the referral, but hopefully the asker will too....
|
| 255.12 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Sun Jan 25 1987 20:01 | 6 |
| re .-1
No problem, as long as it doesn't adversely affect the business use of the
systems or become the main method the private business operates.
/john
|
| 255.13 | Not quite the Moonies, but close | NEWVAX::ADKINS | I'm dialing up 911 | Mon Jan 26 1987 21:14 | 48 |
| Although this has not been brought up, I think it deserves a mention.
What about DECCIES who use DEC as a place to gather members for
these pyramid marketing schemes?
About 2 years ago, I was looking around the company for a new job.
I talked to my Group Manager who suggested a few managers for me
to talk to. I talked to one manager who had plans of staffing up
a S/W project in the near future. They were awaiting the PO from
the customer. I talked to him and told him about my background and
he said he'd keep me in mind. All looked OK.
A few days later, I received an inter-office envelope from this
UM that included a audio cassette tape and a note asking that I
give it a listen and get back to him. The tape was labeled "Your
Financial Security in the '80s" or something and had an address
in North Carolina on it. It wound up being an Amway pitch. I felt
that this was cheesy at best, implying "you scratch my back"
leverage since I had a job pending with him. I told a UM in the
building about this and mentioned it to my Group Manager. He said
that he would take care of it.
About a week later, I got a call from this Unit Manager who just
started talking along and asking if I had listened to the tape.
It was obvious that nobody had talked to him about this and I had
decided I didn't want the job (I'm into working for people that
I respect). I said to my self, "Self, if they won't say anything
to him, I will". I proceded to let him know that I felt that his
behavior was sleazy and mentioned words like extortion. He was taken
back but did not seem to think he was doing anything wrong. He's
still around and he's still a manager.
It seems like DEC would frown upon this kind of activity. He used
the internal mail system and the company's time to try to advance
his personal gain. (Not his numbers as related to DEC's business).
I had told my Group Manager and I guess I should have contacted
Personnel, but I never thought about it.
Is this in violation of conflict of interest or use of company
resources? I have an allergy to these kinds of schemes and find
them offensive.
As I said this is not quite the same as the base note, but I think
it falls under the solicitation umbrealla.
Comments?
Jim
|
| 255.14 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Jan 27 1987 00:06 | 6 |
| If he solicited you while you were not on break or lunch, then he violated
company policy.
If he used inter-office mail, then he violated company policy.
/john
|
| 255.15 | re:.14 That's what I thought | NEWVAX::ADKINS | I'm dialing up 911 | Tue Jan 27 1987 15:22 | 1 |
|
|
| 255.16 | Read this on your own time! | TUNDRA::RICER | | Sat Feb 14 1987 16:16 | 49 |
| ****************************************************************
* Do not read this on company time. It is not being written on *
* company time. It is not a solicitation. It is not a sales *
* pitch. Its only purpose is to correct several misstatements *
* in 255.13. *
****************************************************************
Yes, Jim, I do have a few comments, since you brought up the subject.
First let's get one thing out of the way: what the UM did was wrong.
But what does that have to do with Amway? Amway warns its distributors
*not* to do precisely what he did. When you see a DECcie breaking
the rules, do you automatically start casting aspersions on DEC?
Amway is not a "pyramid marketing scheme." As a matter of fact,
Amway helped the FTC write the regulations banning pyramid
organizations in the 70's. Amway is a 27 year old, highly-respected,
billion dollar company that operates in 43 different countries. It
has a strict code of ethics that other corporations would do well
to follow.
Amway's Personal Shopper Service is the seventh largest mail order
business in the country. Amway distributors market the best-selling
perimeter alarm system in the country, state-of-the-art water treatment
systems and air treatment systems, and services such as MCI long
distance phone service, Ultimate Travel Network, and prepaid legal
services. We also market GE appliances, Winegard satellite dishes,
the Encyclopedia Americana, and several thousand other products, in
addition to the more traditional home care products.
I can't speak for the UM, but my motivation in sponsoring someone
into the Amway business is to help them succeed. (I know; I can
hear all the guffaws out there in NOTESland. But it's true. I think
that's why Amway is sometimes misunderstood. The entire business is
based on the concept of a win-win situation. You don't often see that
in the business world.) No, we aren't all saints. It's very simple:
I don't succeed until I help others succeed.
Your reference to the Moonies, whatever it was supposed to mean,
doesn't deserve to be dignified by a reply.
If you are comfortable and secure in your Digital cocoon, more
power to you. But please don't belittle those of us who want to get
a little more out of life (and also return more to it, via volunteer
work and charitable contributions) and who want to help others do
the same.
Rod Rice
|
| 255.17 | Amway :== Pyramid Scheme | SAFETY::SEGAL | Len Segal | Sun Feb 15 1987 18:10 | 52 |
| RE: .16
> ****************************************************************
> * Do not read this on company time. It is not being written on *
> * company time. It is not a solicitation. It is not a sales *
> * pitch. Its only purpose is to correct several misstatements *
> * in 255.13. *
> ****************************************************************
Ron, Sorry but I can not possibly read these notes on my own time.
Since I am salaried, DEC owns me 100% of the time!! [I say this
with some seriousness, since DEC owns anything I might invent,
software I might write, etc. even if I do it on my own time with my
own equipment (check Personnel Policies & Procedures if you doubt
me).]
> When you see a DECcie breaking the rules, do you automatically start
> casting aspersions on DEC?
People definitely do! I will remind you of something a former boss
told me when I was a Co-op Student and had a Company car: When you
are driving a marked Company car, YOU ARE THE COMPANY to the
customers, thus you must always be more courteous and polite than
you would normally act. The Company, any Company is the
people/employees who work there. Those that flame at Sears base
their feelings on their experiences with the sales help, not with
the President of Sears! Amway is no different.
> Amway is not a "pyramid marketing scheme." As a matter of fact,
> Amway helped the FTC write the regulations banning pyramid
> organizations in the 70's.
Amway definitely fits my definition of a "pyramid marketing scheme".
I was invited to a get-together of "neighbors" in 1971, only to find
out that it was a sales pitch to sell Amway. To date I have sat
through two of these presentations and the "gold", "silver", etc.
distributors scheme even included a commission after a distributor
retired. I once sat down and calculated a theoretical set-up where
the commissions could reach 83% of the price paid for a product! In
1983 was on a business trip to PNO and there was an Amway convention
at the hotel with over 1000 Amway salespeople there. They were very
secretive when I casually asked them what the convention was. It
appears that the system hasn't changed much over the years. It
wouldn't surprise me at all for Amway to have helped the FTC write
the regulations defining and banning "pyramid marketing schemes", by
helping write the definition, one gets an opportunity to ensure that
they are unaffected by the regulations. [When I worked in nuclear
power, the NRC promulgated a regulation which required plants to
make some measurements at an accuracy level which did NOT exist in
the marketplace. It turned out that a vendor "helped" write the
requirement which would guarantee that THEY would be the sole
supplier of the equipment (which they were developing).]
|
| 255.19 | Solicitation is solicitation | NEWVAX::ADKINS | I'm dialing up 911 | Mon Feb 16 1987 11:19 | 58 |
| Re .16:
I am not writing this on "company time". Today is a customer
holiday, so I take it, too.
> When you see a DECcie breaking
> the rules, do you automatically start casting aspersions on DEC?
In this instance, yes I do. Not at the DEC with Ken Olsen and the
VAX and all the good stuff, but at the large local company called
DEC that I work for. I found the incident distasteful and brought
it up with the "powers that be" locally. And nothing was done about
it (big suprise).
The timing of the sales pitch was very questionable. It implied
"If you play Amway for me, I can get you a job." If DEC choses to
allow this kind of criteria to be used for its employee selections
and placements, then I would indeed say that is a indeed serious fault.
I personally would hope that it would be based more on job qualifications.
> Amway is not a "pyramid marketing scheme."
I don't buy it. As they say, if it looks like a duck and it walks
like a duck and it sounds like a duck.....
> Your reference to the Moonies, whatever it was supposed to mean,
> doesn't deserve to be dignified by a reply.
The Moonies is a reference to an earlier note discussing solicitation
(the topic) by any outside group at DEC. Perhaps the title should
have read "Not the Moonies, but a different solicitation".
I am aware that there are differences between Amway and the Moonies
in their goals. But they do have one thing in common. They try
to recruit persons by going out to find them, they don't rely on
the recruits coming to them. Some folks don't wish to be recruited
by either.
> If you are comfortable and secure in your Digital cocoon, more
> power to you. But please don't belittle those of us who want to get
> a little more out of life (and also return more to it, via volunteer
> work and charitable contributions) and who want to help others do
> the same.
Geez, talk about cocoons. I'm glad for you that you get more out
of life. I sit up nights wondering why my life is so empty. It
must have been awful clever of you to have gotten my 1040 forms
from the IRS so you know that you make more charaitable contributions.
If you want to sell Amway, sell Amway. But do you feel that you
are really in a position to say that you are happier than those
of us who don't or that you are a somehow a more valuable member
of DEC in general or society as a whole? It is this kind of attitude
that has put me off so badly with these kinds of organizations.
I don't feel making those kinds of statements really helps defend
your case much.
Jim
|
| 255.20 | Same disclaimer as in .16 still applies | TUNDRA::RICER | | Mon Feb 16 1987 21:20 | 81 |
| Re: .17
My name is Rod, not Ron. Is that any indication of how well
you read my note?
It's funny you should mention DEC owning you. That is precisely
the reason I'm an Amway distributor. I'm completely independent
and am rewarded in direct proportion to my efforts; I'm not limited
to the x% increase in some salary plan.
You're right, of course, about "YOU ARE THE COMPANY". But when
people flame at Sears, do they flame at the way the company is
organized, and its marketing plan? I doubt it. When people see
some clown in a DEC company car, do they say "That's a sleazy company"
(to paraphrase .13)? I doubt it.
Sure, you can define "pyramid marketing scheme" any way you want,
to suit your purpose. So tell me, just what is your definition?
You're darn right Amway's going to pay me after I retire. Is
DEC going to pay you after you retire?
I also would be very interested in seeing where your "83% com-
missions" came from. The fact that you arrived at that impossible
number casts doubt on how much attention you paid to those two
presentations. Selective listening, maybe? Whatever didn't fit
your preconceived notion, didn't get heard?
Something like $.62 out of every sales dollar does go back to
the distributors, in the form of commissions and bonuses. Is that
supposed to be bad? Please explain. I don't know about you, but
that's a pretty attractive deal to me!
Do you really think that the FTC and Ralph Nader & friends would
have let a big juicy target like Amway get away with any hanky-panky
when they were helping write the rules against pyramid organizatiions?
Re: .19
You don't seem to have read my note very well, either. Could
I have been any clearer than saying "What the UM did was wrong."?
I agree with you 100% on that point. So why repeat yourself?
Since some people seem to be making up definitions of a "pyramid
marketing scheme", what's yours?
Using your (recruiting) criteria, there are several other
organizations that should be lumped together with Amway and the
Moonies:
-Any church that does mission work (almost any church I've ever
heard of!)
-Any social, civic, or charitable organization that ever recruits
members
-Any business that has recruiters in its personnel department
I'd say we are in pretty good company...
Don't worry, your 1040 is safe and unviolated. There are many
Amway distributors who donate more to charity in a year than you'll
ever think of making in a year, working for DEC. Whether you do
or don't donate, volunteer, or even make lots of money has nothing
to do with what I was saying. What I was saying was, "You live
your life and I'll live mine. But I don't appreciate your slandering
what is an important part of my life." I made no comparisons between
anyone. I certainly wouldn't be so presumptuous as to say I was
better or happier than anyone. I do know that *I* am a much better
and happier (not to mention financially better off) person than
before I joined the Amway business. Why shouldn't I offer other
people the chance to do the same for themselves?
Oh, and thank you for your magnanimity in allowing me to continue
to "sell Amway", as you so eloquently put it.
Rod Rice
should be lumped together with Amway and the Moonies
"pyramid marketing scheme", what is yours?
I'll
|
| 255.21 | Stray lines... | TUNDRA::RICER | | Mon Feb 16 1987 21:30 | 4 |
| Sorry about the 3 stray lines at the bottom of .20. Guess I need
to learn more about how this editor works.
Rod
|
| 255.22 | I quit | NEWVAX::ADKINS | I'm dialing up 911 | Mon Feb 16 1987 23:13 | 13 |
| Re .20:
I see no point in continuing this.
My first note was about the implication that a job could be arranged
in return for cooperation in a secondary financial venture.
I hope you make lots of money and are incredibly happy until the
end of time. But please do not approach me with any of your wares.
If I want to buy something, I'll go to a store.
Jim
|
| 255.23 | | SERPNT::SONTAKKE | Vikas Sontakke | Tue Feb 17 1987 11:58 | 3 |
| Can this discussion be moved to AMWAY conference please?
- Vikas
|
| 255.24 | Amway is Not MY Bag | SAFETY::SEGAL | Len Segal | Tue Feb 17 1987 13:14 | 83 |
| RE: .17, .18, & .20
Rod, sorry for misspelling your name, I typed it from memory of your
message and "blew it"!
If you have the proper "make-up" to be a salesperson, maybe Amway is
the solution to your being "owned" by a company. Personally, I
tried selling (my Father was an independent salesperson for 40+
years, I tried his product line and also sold {as an independent
rep} for Tech Hifi's parent company before they ever got into the
franchising game) and found that I would starve to death before I
could succeed as a salesperson. As stated in another Note, it takes
a "special breed" of person to succeed in the sales field. At least
I realize that I do not have what it takes, so I am content to earn
a salary doing some things that I enjoy doing. [Different strokes
for different folks!]
YES, people do make disparaging comments about a company based on
what they see of the company, whether it is a clerk, delivery
person, manager, etc. This is human nature and we can say anything
we wish, but we are unlikely to change it.
I am not a lawyer, but I define a "pyramid scheme" as a system where
you have a long chain of personnel, each of whom draws a commission
based on what the people under them in the "pyramid" sell. This is
as opposed to a number of salaried people, with only a few layers of
commissioned personnel under them. Theoretically, the "pyramid" can
grow to an infinite length (at least until you run out of people)
with commissions paid all the way up the chain.
If you (Rod, .20) state that "Something like $.62 out of every sales
dollar does go back to the distributors, in the form of commissions
and bonuses.", then my "83% commissions" estimate can't be that far
off?
I do not remember all the numbers that I used to figure the 83%, it
was ~1971 when I attended the sales presentations! However, I do
recall sitting there, adding up all the commission %-ages that they
presented and included the retirement %-age to come up to that
theoretical value. AT THE PRESENTATION, I raised this issue and the
presentor did NOT challenge my calculation. Long ago, I trashed all
this information, as I had/have no interest in Amway.
When I went to my first presentation, I had NEVER heard of Amway, so
I had NO preconceived notions!! Rod, Please save your sarcastic
remarks (.20), they don't add anything to the discussion!!!
At the presentations, they made a pitch about how great it is to
work for yourself, asking each person if they weren't disatisfied
with their "lot in life", needed more money, etc. I had just
started my first engineering job after graduating college, was paid
for overtime (with lots of it), recently married, two incomes, with
no debts, and rent of only $160./month for a real nice 1000 sq ft
apt within walking distance from work!!! I was very happy with my
"lot in life", plus I knew that I couldn't sell, so I was a poor
candidate!!
My basic objection to Amway is the way the dealers/distributors try
to hide what they are doing, if it so great, why make it a secret
and attempt to get people to listen to the presentation by deceptive
means (e.g. get-together of neighbors, etc.)??????
When I finally pried some info out of the Amway convention folks I
met on my visit to PNO (at the hotel/resort we stayed at), Rod why
did each person tell me that they couldn't afford to give up their
primary job and sell Amway full-time? If it is such a money-maker,
logic tells me that a fair percentage of them would be doing it
full-time. My guess (please note that I do say GUESS!) is that much
of the fat commission checks which were displayed at the
presentations I attended must be funnelled further down the chain of
the pyramid of salespeople. Thus, the salesperson probably doesn't
net (after paying the people working for them, and for them, etc.)
anything like the sums in the original check.
Personally, I enjoy working in my "coccoon" at DEC; and I find it
quite satisfying (and it has some financial rewards to) to teach
college part-time and working as a police officer part-time. I
would rather do these things for a few extra $$ than try to sell
products of any sort.
Rod, Good luck on making your fortune with Amway, everyone has to
find their niche in life.
|
| 255.25 | 2 JOBS? | SNO78A::ORME | Smile | Tue Feb 17 1987 16:35 | 6 |
| No doubt somebody will correct me if I am wrong but..
I thought that DEC policy was that no-one working for DEC could
have a second job. Is this the case?
ted
|
| 255.26 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Feb 17 1987 17:41 | 9 |
| > No doubt somebody will correct me if I am wrong but..
> I thought that DEC policy was that no-one working for DEC could
> have a second job. Is this the case?
You're wrong. No one working for DEC may have a second job in an area affecting
DEC's business (without permission). Second jobs unrelated to DEC's business
are none of DEC's business.
/john
|
| 255.27 | | POTARU::QUODLING | Gak! My Brain is fading! | Tue Feb 17 1987 18:44 | 5 |
| unless, they impinge on the employee's effectiveness to digital,
and the employee starts mixing the two.
q
|
| 255.28 | | HAYNES::DENSMORE | get to the verbs | Wed Feb 18 1987 08:01 | 5 |
| re .27
...in which case it would be treated as a performance problem.
Mike
|
| 255.29 | "AMWAY" conference ???? | LEROUF::BREICHNER | | Thu Feb 19 1987 07:06 | 7 |
| Did I see in this conference a pointer to an AMWAY conference ???
If yes, does AMWAY sponsor it ?
Or is it benefitial to the Decies ?
I'd rather ignore it !
Fred
|
| 255.30 | Some people sell detergents, others sell condos | SERPNT::SONTAKKE | Vikas Sontakke | Thu Feb 19 1987 08:23 | 4 |
| Would you believe that it is an `Employee Interest Conference',
just like say, REAL_ESTATE?
- Vikas
|
| 255.31 | And Amway does both! | TUNDRA::RICER | | Thu Feb 19 1987 16:19 | 23 |
| Well, almost. There is now an Amway Realty Network and we'll
soon be originating mortgages, too.
Yes, Vikas, I'm leaving, in just a minute... :)
I never quite felt warm & fuzzy (that's a good one for CLICHE, isn't
it?) about posting those notes to DIGITAL, but since this is where
the aspersions were being flung around, this is where I answered
them.
Len, I'd like to thank you for your calm and rational note (.24).
I didn't intend any sarcasm toward you, as I will explain when I
send you mail shortly.
I agree with Len: "Different strokes for different folks." But
I would add the request that others not knock my "strokes" on the
basis of incomplete or old or incorrect information and without
knowing me and how I run my business.
Rod Rice
|
| 255.32 | topic closed | HUMAN::CONKLIN | Peter Conklin | Sun Mar 01 1987 14:58 | 5 |
| I believe that all viewpoints on this topic have been sufficiently
expressed for the DIGITAL way of working conference. Therefore,
I have closed this topic and set it /NOWRITE.
-sincerely, HUMAN::DIGITAL owner
|