Conference 7.286::digital

In 1978, I moved from Corporate Software Support (used to be called
HOSS) to an engineering position with no trouble whatsoever.

Martin.

Isn't there something called the "Engineering Review Board", which is
responsible for reviewing the promotion of employees with "Technician"
titles to "Engineering" status?  I don't know whether the review is
necessary when the individual has obtained a relevant college degree,
or is always used when promoting a tech.  Perhaps the same procedure
is relevant when changing the job classifications of certain individuals
who are software specialists.

While I do not know (nor am I asking to know) the educational backgrounds of
the authors of .0, and .1, the differences in their experiences could
conceivably be explained by this hypothesis.
				/AHM

    Maybe I'm an idjiot but I ask "what is the big deal?"  If you are
    getting the same pay or better and if you think the job is great,
    why turn it down?  Titles are easily handed out and for most
    applications they mean nothing.  
    
    What means alot is that you are happier with the job change.  There
    are more beni's that just straight pay or title.  As I understand
    it Dec has stopped giving raises on lateral transfers.  So that
    might be your concern.

    I think .0 is giving yet another example where a "rule" is used
    to justify an action that can't be justified using good judgement
    and the Personnel Policies and Procedures Manual.
    
    It's called creeping bureaucracy and everyone ought to demand to
    see in black and white each "rule" that's applied to them and by
    what authority is the "rule" promulgated.
    
    Folklore isn't a way to run a company.

I'm relatively new to this place (2 years) but have watch this particular
issue with a great deal of interest.

So here goes...

<<Flame on>>
Seems to me the whole "engineering title" comes from a great deal of
insecurity on the part of the folks who give the titles.  As one who has
a MS in CS and just recently gave up the "engineering title" to become a
software specialist doing a job I like a whole lot better, this
discussion speaks to a whole world of engineering elitism.  Yes, I know this
used to be an engineering company and not a management company.  Yes, I
know being an engineer implies a certain level of training/skill.  But I
also know the old saw that if buildings were engineered the way software
is, one woodpecker could destroy civilization.  

This nascent industry (and company) has yet to make the transition from a
science to business.  This is reflected in the high esteem of engineering
relative to any other group in this corporation.
<<Flame off>>

What does it mean to be an engineer?  Hardware?  Software?  Two different
answers, neither one of which I could give in one cogent sentence.

	RE: .5
    
    >Finally, I believe that there is a policy within the company
    >not to give raises (and promotions?) as a result of moving within
    >the company. The company doesn't want groups to be competing with
    >each other with the company's money.
    
	I know of several people within DEC that have gone from one
    job to another within DEC that have gotten a promotion and/or a
    raise when transferring jobs.  I too had heard that rumor, and in
    checking it out - that is all it is - a rumor!
    
    Gale

    Re; raises & promotions during transfer.  This apparently falls
    into a gray area.  If you spend some time reading the PP handbook,
    you'll notice that there are very few places where it says that
    "this will happen..." or "this will occur...".  More often than
    not, the policy states "this SHOULD happen..." or "this MAY happen".
    Promotion and/or raise during a transfer falls into the "should
    not happen" category, but certainly not "will not happen".  This
    is not a cut; the policy may sound ambiguous, but I think the allowance
    for considering a specific individual's case in particular is more
    important than simply referring to the book & quoting policy.  Two
    brownie points awarded.
    
    But in this case with the eng title, I took it as an insult.  My
    experience level and qualifications for the job were already known
    within that group (and they even admitted that).  If there were
    a question about that, they wouldn't have offered it!  Yes, they
    said I could go before the elite eng review board in 6-12 months,
    but I felt no need to be "on probation".
    
    Jon

    First of all, I agree with a previous reply that titles tend to
    be somewhat meaningless.  If everything about the job (including
    salary range of course) was desirable, I certainly wouldn't quibble
    about the title.  After all, how many hundreds of vice presidents
    does every large bank have making $15K a year?
    
    But...
    
    I have no idea why the engineering title was withheld from your job
    offer.  My feelings about titles notwithstanding, however, I feel very
    strongly that you have a right to an answer.  Have you insisted that
    you be given a reasonable explanation? You mentioned that the Personnel
    organization indicated the manager had no right to do that.  It's
    wonderful that they said that, but what were they willing to DO about
    it?  Did they just say "Sorry, pal, you've been wronged" and drop it
    there?  Pat was right when he said you have every right to demand
    to know under what rule this decision was made.  I would certainly
    pursue the matter in search of some explanation.
    
    						Patricia

    Within Field Service, the concept of an engineer review board exists
    as well, although probably in a different context.  I can take (for
    example) a job in District Support, and then work towards doing
    my PSE (I think it stands for Product Service Engineer, but I could
    be wrong) after the fact.  It's not something that comes with the
    job -- it indicates that I've achieved some sort level of knowledge
    about a specific product set, or at least satisfied the requirements
    of the review board.
    
    I have never tried for a PSE in my present job.  I've never found
    that it hampered me in my work, or that it affected my raises. 
    I could never really be bothered taking the time out of what I do
    to get ready to go before the board.
    
    But I don't loose sleep over it, either.  Given the scenerio in
    .0, I think I'd take the job, and then think about the review board.
    
    b.

    re .10: of course I pursued getting an answer, both at the time
    that Personnel made the offer & in subsequent phone calls.  The
    explanation is [apparently] that the policy is very green and orange
    in this regard: if a person is coming into an eng organization and
    does not currently possess the eng title, he will not be given an
    eng title, regardless of his/her qualifications or track record.  
    In this case, I knew I was qualified for it, as did the interviewing 
    manager, as did several employees within that group.
    
    As far as the previous offer WITH the title, after mentioning that
    to the Personnel rep, I was told in no uncertain terms that that
    manager did not have a right to make that offer, offers must come
    through and be approved by the Personnel organization.
    
    Salary was the same (domestic generally don't get raises during
    a transfer, internat'l almost always do), but it was the aspect
    of not feeling that a probationary period was required.
    
    Jon

    I made the switch from SWS (Specialist IV or Principle Specialist)
    to Senior Software Engineer in 1984 with no fuss, no muss.  The
    only loss was a 1 year delay in promotion (Immediate promotion to
    SWS Consultant vs. 1 year delay to Principle Engineer).  
    
    I've only heard of one case where the Eng. Review Board was invoked
    on the software side.  
    
    I really doubt there has been a change in policy; sounds like a
    crock to me.
    
    -Ken
    VAX BASIC Development 

    I worked for over four years as an engineer in France. The title
    means something there, just like the "Doctor" title in Medecine.
    If you say you are an Engineer, you'd better have the Diploma to
    back it up.
    
    I also worked for 15 months in the UK. In the UK, an Engineer is
    the person who fixes your toaster when it breaks.
    
    The Engineering Institutes in different countries try to protect
    the use of the title "Engineer" with differing effort and success.
    
    MFG
    

I believe that the whole matter us solely up to the hiring manager/supervisor 
and the personnel rep for that group.  I will cite 2 examples:

1. About 9 years ago I hired a person from diagnostics to work for me as a 
software engineer.  I forget what his title was in diagnostics but he 
definitely was not an "engineer".  By simply signing my name on a piece of 
paper he became a Software Engineer (J15).  No muss, no fuss, no hassle.
Personnel knew exactly what I was doing and so did his former supervisor.  
They (diagnostics) didn't like it but they were helpless to stop it.  At that 
time software engineering had no review board or other such procedure.  BTW, 
the salary he was getting from diagnostics fit nicely into the J15 range.

2. About 3 years ago I had a person who I helped become an "engineer" thru an 
on the job process.  With the help of two personnel reps I formulated a 
career/job plan and worked with the individual to implement it.  The plan 
included specifics as to training needed, projects to accomplish this, 
promotion plan (including job codes unrelated to engineer), etc.  When this 
person was, in my opinion, ready for that promotion to J15, personnel 
suggested that I have the person go in front of some kind of review board 
just to make it official.  SWE had no board then so I just arranged interviews
with 3 managers who I knew would do the right thing (ie. write a positive
recommendation).  Fair?  I think so.  Did we do the right thing?  Yes, again.

The above just goes to prove that if a manager wants something bad enough for 
someone, and he can justify it, then it WILL happen.

     The biggest problem here, as I see it, is that this matter is handled
     very inconsistently not only from organization to organization, but
     also inconsistently between different locations within the same 
     organization.

     For example, most Design groups seem to have very strict ERB's
     with quite high standards.  Some Manufacturing plants have ERB's,
     but their requirements vary significantly.  A number of departments
     have abandoned all pretense of ERB's, and leave it up to the
     discretion of the hiring manager.  

     A previous (large) company I worked for was very strict about not
     allowing the use of the title "Engineer" without that sheepskin,
     or a very close facsimile thereof.  They did, however, have more
     job ranges for technicians that allowed them to keep advancing 
     into higher ranges.  Thus, it was ok to be a career tech, and there 
     was no pressure to go for a job with the engineering title just
     to find a higher paying job.

     While different organizations within DEC will always have different
     needs, there really is the need for at least a consistent set of
     guidlines throughout the company.

    
    	In ABO, there is almost no reference to an ERB. Most of the
    desig{/support engineering folks are non-sheepskined techs.... and
    they are DAMN GOOD!   As a{sheepskinned en{ineer I have the utmost
    respect for them. If you{can do the job, the{hell with the paper!!!!
    
    	Sorry for the emotionalism, but if yo{ can do the work, you
    S{hould ge{ paid for it.... Seems like a regional thing.....
    
    
    	-John

    re .17
    As a matter of fact, it is a regional thing. There was discussion
    of this subject in some of the engineering mags. In some states
    it is illegal to use the title 'Engineer' unless you have passed
    the state board, whether you have a sheepskin or not.
    
    Bob Mc
    

        A friend of mine got a promotion a while back. Someone asked him
        what he wanted on his new cards. He answered "Software God". As a
        joke, they printed up some for him with that title. 
        
        I always wanted "Software Guru" on mine, but kind of like the
        "Software Generalist" that I heard someone else suggest. 

        Bob "Senior Software Specialist" Kaplow

    re: .7                                         

    >	I know of several people within DEC that have gone from one
    >job to another within DEC that have gotten a promotion and/or a
    >raise when transferring jobs.  I too had heard that rumor, and in
    >checking it out - that is all it is - a rumor!
    
    Do you mean transferring within DEC and at the same time getting
    a promotion and a raise is a rumor?  If you don't think it can
    happen, think twice!  I know someone who got a promotion AND a
    hefty raise while moving from engineering to the field with
    absolutely NO hassle from personnel or management and this is
    no rumor.

    Tom

    I prefer the snobbish way of refering to people, as used in London,
    
    Martin "Something in Computers" Howard

    re .7 and others:  It was my understanding that if you move but
    don't change job codes, then your salary does not change.  If you
    get a promotion to a new job code, then unless your current salary
    is below the minimum for the new job code, your salary does not
    change immediately, although the new job code affects your next
    salary review.  I would not be surprised if there are exceptions
    made if a hiring manager is sufficiently desparate.
    
    Also, I believe that there were special rules in effect during the
    salary freeze for a few years ago.  Things that kept managers from
    sneaking raises under the table by giving promotions.
    
    (I don't know any of this other than by having my former manager
    explain it to me, and I may be remembering wrong...)
    
    Burns
    

    It's somewhat difficult to give an "unplanned" increase in the middle
    of the salary planning year, though certainly not impossible.  Each
    manager gets a "pot" of money in April and divvies it up among his
    people.  During the year, as he observes performance, he can move
    that money around any way he wants.  But there is no more money
    for increases.
    
    If he hires a new employee from outside, he settles on a salary
    for that employee and that much money is added to the "pot".  If
    he transfers in an existing Digital employee, that employee's current
    salary is added to the "pot", plus whatever was allocated by that
    employee's manager last April as a planned increase.  No more than
    that, and no earlier than what was in the plan.
    
    So...
    
    To bring in a new employee and give him/her an unplanned increase,
    the manager has to take some money away from someone in the existing
    group.  I'm sure that has happened, but I for one would require
    an EXCEPTIONAL situation to do it.
    
    						Pat

    Re. -1
    
    There is also a building wide pool of excess money, to be used as
    a buffer that can also be tappped.  Mind you this means usually going
    to the plant Staff/Manager or BOD of the building to tap into
    this reserve fund, but the manager can do it, and can cover the
    salary increase this way also. 
    
    GLK

    The "pot" description is essentially correct. However, there is
    no building-wide pot. Some managers may save a pot for their group.
    This may correlate with buildings, but not always.
    
    What is new in the past year, is a formal measurement system for
    managers that reflects whether or not they hold to the plan, in
    the overall pot sense. The metrics are: total raise dollars, average
    interval between raises, average participation rate (% of employees
    getting raises in a year), and number of promotions.
    
    Prior to the past year, these rules were in place, but there was
    no formal measurement system, so some groups violated the plan badly
    while others managed to plan. In January, 1985, Executive Committee
    formally committed to the measurement system. In setting out the
    salary plan guidelines this January (1986), they used the measurements
    from the previous year. With this commitment, we should see a much
    more consistent application of the plan across all functions and
    groups.

    re. .22  If your manager felt you deserved a promotion BUT had no
    open jobs at that level, you could indeed transfer, be promoted,
    and get raise at same time.  A number of variations on that theme
    have probably happened from time to time.
    
    There are also exceptions for those who change "career paths" as
    in switching from engineering to sales or vice-versa since the
    appropriate salaries may be different.
    
    
    	Rick
    

The justification my manager gave for why we generally don't get raises
when transferring is that managers shouldn't bid against each other
for internal transfers.  The "pot of salary money" explanation is also
a good reason.  Every year, each organization within Digital gets a
"bogey", which is the average raise to be permitted for all employees
over the year.  This is broken down further until at some level, all
the managers get together and argue out which of their people is getting
which raise, making sure that the average matches the group bogey.  So
if your manager praises you highly in your salary review, but your raise
is below the bogey (assuming you can find out what it is), then you know
that your manager is BSing you - this happened to one woman I know (who has
since left the comapny for unrelated reasons).  Of course, the first review 
after a transfer or job title change is an exception.

People have said that titles don't matter much, and I basically agree.
In Digital, more so than most places, it's your reputation that matters,
not your title.  But titles do have two important values.  First, they
broadly speaking correspond to quality, at least in engineering.  If someone
is a "consulting engineer", that means they've gone before a review board
that has recognized that they are hot stuff.  And if someone is a "corporate
consulting engineer", they might as well write "software god" or "hardware
god" on their business cards - it means the same thing.

The other way in which titles are important is for salary.  Yeah, you might
have the same salary now independent of your title.  But in my group, at
least, the amount of your raise is affected by whether you are high or low
in your salary range.  Anyway, I'd say to take the job if you like it and the
salary, and then fight out the title issue - once you are in, you're in a
good position to do so.  And if a review board is required after all, well,
it's no worse than the hoops they make people jump through to get sheepskins.
A certain aptitude at hoop jumping is essential for almost any enterprise.

	Larry

    An article in Digital This Week is titled 
    
    "New Titles available from Digital ..."
    
    you don't suppose?    :-)

re: -1,

	...just when you thought it was SAFE to be a software engineer...

						-DAV0

It's late at nite (and 2+ years) since the last reply but...I don't think
anybody mentioned that whether or not you're an engineer NOW may
effect your MARKETABILITY should you decide to join another company.

Scott.