Conference 7.286::digital

Forget the fact, that I only know about the open door policy since yesterday
evening...Thanks Didier for telling me. But also sorry, Didier, if I still
do not agree with this.

You seem to forget, that we are in Europe (and especially in Switzerland for
me), and that we are not in the states...I am already afraid, about what will
happen to me, after hitting CTRL/Z in this reply...but that is another story.

Dear Didier, I will talk about Switzerland, as it is this country, were I know
about it...Our managers, are mostly swiss...good swiss managers...swiss mind,
swiss acting, swiss swiss... If I go to see my manager, and tell him, that I
am not happy about something, this will already be an attempt to his "kingdom".
I don't even try to imagine, what would happen, if I go to see his manager..

God Hell!! Never do that...I guess, that I would be applying for a job at
IBM, the day after.

WE ARE IN EUROPE. NOT IN THE STATES! We have to live with European colleagues
and European managers! You cannot just "walk over" a mentality, wich has
been put in our minds for years and years! Of course it would be nice to
have an open door policy, but If you really want that, Didier, then relocate
across the pond. I guess a lot of american managers, would be happy to have
you, and also a lot of Europeans managers, would be happy, to have you off!

OK...I'll go for it. I'll hit CTRL/Z...CU at IBM's..

Norbert

[John, PSW, Bob, help!...]

>Forget the fact, that I only know about the open door policy since yesterday
>evening...Thanks Didier for telling me. But also sorry, Didier, if I still
>do not agree with this.

You are welcome. I don't intend to try to figure out why you have not been 
told about the ODP, it is not my business, but I am pleased to teach you
how it works.

>You seem to forget, that we are in Europe (and especially in Switzerland for
>me), and that we are not in the States...I am already afraid, about what will
>happen to me, after hitting CTRL/Z in this reply...but that is another story.

I don't see the link between being in the States or in Switzerland and the
ODP which is a Corporate policy, and I don't see about what you could be 
afraid.

>Dear Didier, I will talk about Switzerland, as it is this country, were I know
>about it...Our managers, are mostly swiss...good swiss managers...swiss mind,
>swiss acting, swiss swiss... If I go to see my manager, and tell him, that I
>am not happy about something, this will already be an attempt to his "kingdom"
>I don't even try to imagine, what would happen, if I go to see his manager..

Let me clarify the issue. The policy aims at employee satisfaction. ALL
employees satisfaction. The 'last one' in the ladder is not the only one
who could benefit of the ODP. Your manager as well will be happy to practize
it, amd you can be sure that he did it already. Moreover, the goal is not
to fight against his manager, the goal is to be sure that personal problems
between two persons are not a source of trouble. And obviously, don't rush
into your manager's office, telling him that he is a (set term/noecho) and
that you are going to ask his manager to defend you. We are adults, okay?

>God Hell!! Never do that...I guess, that I would be applying for a job at
>IBM, the day after.

For that issue, see the previous note, dear friend!

>WE ARE IN EUROPE. NOT IN THE STATES! We have to live with European colleagues
>and European managers! You cannot just "walk over" a mentality, wich has
>been put in our minds for years and years! Of course it would be nice to
>have an open door policy, but If you really want that, Didier, then relocate
>across the pond. I guess a lot of american managers, would be happy to have
>you, and also a lot of Europeans managers, would be happy, to have you off!

[hmmm.. not sure to understand the last words...]

Listen, once again there is no link between a mentality and the fact that
the policy must be used or not. It is the way to use it which must be 
adapted, not its existence to be discussed or not.

>OK...I'll go for it. I'll hit CTRL/Z...CU at IBM's..

:-) I'm afraid this file is starting faster than I thought previously!...

re -1: I am surprised at what you are saying. What you are saying in fact is 
       that egos play the big role in Switzerland, and people do not like to 
       be criticized (especially managers). I think the goal for DEC employess
       is to do the best job possible for the corporation. When false pride and
       egos get in the middle, being effective in your job would be impossible.

       I found out the Open Door Policy is one of the things I like most about
       being at Digital. I can talk to my manager about any problems I have
       including problems with him personally. Getting problems out in the open,
       is the only way to resolve them successfully. Having problems  
       and not being able to talk about them, makes you incapable of being 
       productive. Managers should be able to realize that. The first priority
       as I see it is to be as productive and be as best as we can at what we
       do and to contribute to the success of the company through being 
       successful at our jobs. If European managers are blinded to what are the
       goals of the company, then the matter should be persued at a different
       level. I am not saying that All managers in the US are open-minded, but
       there is always a way to work out a situation.

       Now the main question is: Is DEC's policy the same throughout the
       corporation? and if it is then I am sure there is somewhere where you
       concerns could be addressed. Am I being too ideal about this?



Nisreen 

       

I suppose .-1 was a reply to .1 and not to .2 ?....

yes Didier..It was response to 3.1

Re: open door policy.....

	I believe that an open door policy is all well and good, but I 
would not want any of my people going to my manager without first:

	1. Coming to me first to attempt to work it out.

			and

	2. Letting me know that they are going to see the manager above me.


The one thing that I hate at work is surprises, and if one below my level 
of work thinks that they are having a problem that I can not solve, and 
that they need to go up two levels to solve it, I AT LEAST WANT THE 
COURTESY OF KNOWING IT! and before the fact not after.

Gale

>===============================================================================
> GVASA::DTL                 The DEC way of working            2-MAR-1985 15:56 
> Note #3                    -< Open Door Policy >-                 6 responses 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>The open door policy allows to solve problems between a manager and
>an employee. To be correctly used, the employee who has a problem with
>his manager has to tell him that he would like to go and ask his
>manager's manager about the particular issue\.

was not clear, Gale?

That was clear, but most employess'es do not see it that way... they see it 
as an opportunity to clear up a problem, that may not be a problem for the 
level that s/he takes it to.

And I still say... Take advantage of the policy... but tell me first, if 
you are going to my manager! Which in my immediate has happened (not to me, 
but to a colleague.... and he knew nothing about it tell it came down the 
other end)

As I stated before, there is training for employees, and there is a training for
the JP&R, and there is a booklet to help to prepare it. If after all that the
fellow doesn't want to understand how the Digital human relationship are, s/he
has better to leave.

Leaprechauns know the colour of quicksand.

Hail and well met, fellow noters.

Didier, me ould segotia, (term of endearment), I have to agree with Norbert.

Some personal rules about mgmt. (I could be applying to IBM as well).

1. NEVER trust a manager or his manager (old school tie buddies).

2. NEVER EVEN THINK of allowing Personnel access to this or any other notesfile
   If you do you will soon see the devious methods they can employ.

3. Digital is a company where "how one is percieved" is the be all and end all.
   Perception takes on huge meanings in this company, so make one mistake and 
   you will pay for it for a long time to come.
   It will affect your career prospects, it will enter your Personnel file,
   it will be discussed at management reviews, it will be debated when you are
   applying for another position.
   Perception is another word for "Freedom to be Predjudiced".

4. OPD policy is a practised myth, management pay lip service to the philosophy.
   "Participative Management" is the phrase often used to describe how its
   operated. It works like this:
   You (the manager) has a proposal, so you put out the "word" about it, as a
   rumour, usually.
   You measure the feedback.
   You now know what objections exist to your proposal.
   You prepare a case to circumvent these objections.
   You isolate the objectors.
   You present your proposal as a "fait accompli"

   KEEP management/personnel away from this file for all our sakes.
   The only "open door" we will see, will be the one we see, on our way out
   the company.

Snake says, boy is this a heavy topic.

Nuts...

In my 13 or so years with DEC I've not come across the mentalities
identified in this note. Maybe there are national differences but the DEC
management courses attempts to introduce managers to the "DEC way" and, if
it is better than the others, then managers will adopt it. In these
courses, I've seen the "old style" practised and it was soon shown not to
work as well as the DEC way in the DEC environment. 

I have had experience of ODP and it worked fine for me. An employee of mine
was dissatisfied with what I was telling him so we went to my boss. He got
the same story there (he should, of course, as it was a staff policy I was
implementing.) He then requested to see his personnel file, as he thought
there was a "black mark" following him around. This was duly set up and the
Personnel Rep showed him his file, with us all present so he could discuss
any issues. There was nothing in his file, of course, but it showed to him
that the ODP worked and he was much happier and prepared to work issues
directly with me and believe what I was saying. 

Don't worry about your personnel records. If you have a concern, ask to see 
them. Policy dictates no-one will refuse that request. If it turns out you 
have an "empire" manager, then look around....

John

Sorry...but what is this story of "personal records" ??

Norbert (who_does_not_know)

re: Snake.	I suppose it is a new kind of humour??? :-)
		Or are you serious, Mike?

	If you are, someone didn't explain clearly what our Corporation
	mind is.

	Didier

	I believe in the Open Door Policy. At least in the States. My
	limited understanding of the European culture does not include
	anything to doubt Norbert's complaints.

	I know several people who have complained up the ranks. Some all
	the way to KO. Several years ago I myself sent a memo (today it
	would be called a 'Flame') to KO. My manager was in Maynard at the
	time for several weeks of training (he was a new hire). When he
	came back he wanted to know how a VP he ran into knew my name. I
	did get a reply from a VP with answers to all my complains.

	Anyway, the only flack that came down on me was, the Regional SWS
	manager asked my district manager to find out why I skipped a few
	steps in the chain. The district manager and I had a very friendly
	chat and there was never (that I am aware of) any negative impact on 
	my career. In fact, sometime after this I left DEC (totally my idea
	and a big mistake). DEC took me back so I know my action did not
	hurt me. My old district manager told me that if my letter EVER came
	back to bite me to let him know and he would explain things.

	If the problem is your immediate boss and his boss cannot or will not
	help then the answer is to find a new boss. Not all that difficult,
	at least not on this side of the pond.

Alfred

>	If the problem is your immediate boss and his boss cannot or will not
>	help then the answer is to find a new boss. Not all that difficult,
>	at least not on this side of the pond.

NO! thousand of times NO!

When there is a problem detected somewhere, it is not by avoiding its origin
that you will solve it. PLEASE, when you meet someone who doesn't understand
(or want to) our mind, drive him/her to a "good minded" person who will help
you to explain him/her that s/he is wrong.

When I meet someone sick, I don't cross the road, I take care of him. If he
doesn't want to listen, byebye!

re: .0
	Correction: In France, and I believe everywhere, the pers rep has
	not to be in the loop. Everybody may go and see him/her for
	anything, but the pers manager is YOUR manager! If you have any
	kind of problem with him, (I repeat), it is Corporate policy, ie
	our boss's will, that you tell him you wish to see his manager to
	try to solve the problem. That doesn't mean that he will, but he will
	listen to you anyway.

Didier

I've met people in the US & UK who have used the ODP successfully, but usually
ended up by sending a personal letter to KO or the country manager and
ended up by being regarded with suspicion and distrust by local managers.
The point is that it must be really worth it and once you start you cross
the Rubicon....so you have to continue right up the line.

On the other hand I know people in US and elsewhere who get "brutalised" 
by their managers ie managers don't give employee support when its requested
and then blame him/her when things go wrong, aided and abetted by your 
friendly Personnel rep.   Maybe this doesn't happen everyhere..just tell me
where it doesn't happen.

It's only policy in the US for employees to see their personnel file and this
is implemented, elsewhere they do what they want.  When I was in 
Ferney-Voltaire I had conflicting stories from personnel.    I was allowed to
read it once, but only after my manager had agreed, but the second time I
was told by the personnel manager that it was not DEC France (FV) policy
to let employees see their personnel files.      Is he going to be fired :-).
They'll fire me first :-)

Remember Murphy's law of Technology
The first myth of management is that it exists.

Some thoughts concerning the Open Door Policy, not in any particular order.

If one is going to use the ODP to discuss a problem with somebody higher
up in the management chain, one should first have discussed the problem with
one's immediate manager and then informed him of the intent to escalate the
issue.  There is nothing worse than getting suddenly hit from above by an
issue that you didn't even know existed.  I would expect that people working
for me would inform me when they disagreed with me on an issue and would
have the courtesy to let me know that they are escalating the disagreement.
Furthermore, if I were a higher-up manager and somebody two rungs down the
ladder came to me, the first question I would ask is, "have you discussed
this with your direct manager?"  If the answer is no, I would say, "well
do so" and the discussion would end right there for the moment.

Before invoking ODP on an issue, one should have one's facts and arguments
well in hand, so as not to waste the higher-up manager's time.  I think it's
important to remember in these cases that the entire reason why the intermediate
level of management exists is so that the higher-up manager can delegate
some of his responsibilities to the lower-level manager.

Just as an aside, IBM has exactly the same Open Door Policy that DEC does.

I would think that all good managers would adopt an ODP even without a
company-wide policy to that effect.  It makes good managerial sense to me
to allow a channel upwards for grievances.  It saddens me to hear that there
are sections of the company in Europe where this is not the case.  Getting
upset over use of ODP (provided it is not continually abused) and black-listing
people who use it strike me as signs of an incompetant manager who is insecure
in his job.

I disagree with Didier about transferring out from under a manager with whom
one has conflicts over issues like ODP.  I say get out as fast as possible.
If anybody (personnel, for example) asks why you're leaving, be completely
honest about it.  It may be appropriate to invoke ODP to let your manager's
manager know why you are transferring.  One of the things managers are measured
on is their ability to keep their underlings productive.  Among other things,
this means keeping them happy (people perform best in pleasant situations)
and just plain keeping them (nothing disrupts a group like people transferring
out of it).  The easiest way to spot a managerial problem situation is by
a high turnover and transfer rate in the group.  Furthermore, the manager
who insists in running an empire or a slave camp holds all the cards.  Once
you recognize the situation is irreconcilable, it is better for you to find
another group.  A good manager will recognize this, suggest that you might
be happier in another organization, and will actually help you find another
job in the company.

--PSW

    It appears from the previous replies that most of us expect that
    somewhere in a particular chain of management there will exist at
    least one "good" manager who understands the ODP and will handle
    issues in a rational manner, and with no malice towards someone
    who has a complaint.
    
    I think the reality is that not all managers are "good" managers
    (by Digital policy definition), and that there may well be some
    isolated organizations (e.g. Swiss???) where the ODP may not work
    well.  I am personally aquainted with a number of managers who operate
    in, what I perceive to be, a politically devious manner.  They may
    give you "lip service" on your complaint, but they will get back
    at you later.
    
    Here in Digital's home turf, there are so many thousands of job
    positions, it is easy for us to think of merely removing ourselves
    from an unpleasant organization and moving to one more acceptable.
    I can appreciate that this opportunity may not exist in some of
    our smaller facilities.
    
    My own philosophy is to examine all the alternatives, even the more
    drastic ones, and before taking a questionable risk, have a plan which
    includes a contingency for any result which may arise.   The ODP
    is helpful if it works properly, but sometimes it may not. 

    re .19: your example of where ODP may not work well possibly being
    in sws is indeed accurate, based on personal experience.  It's sad
    to note that because of it not working well there, I could name
    (as I'm sure others can also) at least a dozen people who have left
    DEC in the past 12 months, a few of those with Cutler-style technical
    abilities now working for the competition....
    
    Jon

    Well, its easy to see that some people live in a dream world.  The only
    open door policy we have here, (CA.USA) is if you don't like the
    conditions the door is open to leave.  It is a dictatorship and you
    don't dare question or go to a higher level without the risk of losing
    your job.  And in these uncertain times, you'd have to be a very big
    fool to do that!

    What organisation?

    
    That has never been true at the places I've ever worked... 
    
    ISV Group Mt View, 
    Workstation Systems Engineering
    Advanced Technology Development
    

re: .23

I suspect that is because you apparently have worked in some engineering
related organization.  I have heard of one field office where the open door
policy is basically, "The door is open.  Feel free to leave anytime."

Bob

    I also have heard some very negative stories about the interpretation
    given the ODP (and other core Digital values) in locations isolated
    from the mainstream.  As a card-carrying-cynic, my reply is 
    
    	"Value those differences!"
    
    :-)

    Digital has an open door policy; the policy is execllent! Some of the
    personnel executing the policy is in serious question. The union
    between personnel and management is also of serious question. The
    reason for the good responses and the bad responses are people not the
    policy. If the correct people are not selected to manage, execute and
    monitor the open door policy then the policy itself is inadequate.
    
    Rex D. Jones
    

    > The union between personnel and management is also of serious question.
    
    That's an under statement!
    It seems to ME that Personnel and Management are ONE and THE SAME at
    Digital!    It is especially apparent during the "transition".
    
     

    
    	The union between personnel & management has always been a fact
    	of life, with this company or any other.  That's the nature of
    	the business.
    
    	Ask yourself who measures personnel on their deliverables?  Who
    	determines if a personnel person is a poor performer?  
      

    In our office we had a picture over the water cooler (remember when we
    had them?), it showed a door opening onto a porch, which viewed a
    scenic display of the ocean; to which someone far-seeing individual had
    attached a note " DECs Open Door Policy ". I say no more.

    So the meaning was that: If one had a problem one could go through  the
    open door and jumo in the ocean?
    Ken

    	A manager here once told me that the open door policy means that if
    you have a problem, there's the door! He was kidding, of course, but
    it's often not far from the truth.

    The open door policy, while intended to help ensure everyone has the
    opportunity to be heard, absolutely will be interpreted culturally and
    used / abused accordingly.
    
    
    

    I had an opportunity to use the Open Door Policy just a few months ago
    to try to resolve an ongoing problem with one of my managers.  I
    followed the procedure as carefully as I could, working the issue
    locally for several months, going to Personnel, notifying the manager
    that I intended to use the Open Door Policy when all else failed.  I
    went to the meeting with what I felt was a positively worded agenda,
    and documentation to back up what I wanted to talk about.
    
    Within two weeks of that Open Door Policy meeting, I was suddenly
    given the worst performance review I'd ever received in my life (six
    months ahead of schedule).  This review, while containing factual
    statements, was intentionally made as negative as it could possibly be. 
    This despite the fact that just three weeks earlier my supervisor had
    sat in my office and told me that he was happy with my job performance,
    and despite the fact that the engineering manager who's products I was
    supporting had given me high praise for taking intiatives that, in his
    words, saved this company over $100,000 in projected documentation
    costs for his products that year.
    
    When I asked my supervisor why this was happening, he said "that's what
    happens when you go over your manager's head".  When I asked him what 
    about the "no retaliation will be tolerated" clause in the Open Door
    Policy, he told me that everything they said and did could be justified.
    When I asked him about fair treatment and personnel policies, he said 
    that fair treatment at Digital is exactly what your manager decides it 
    is, and that every personnel policy in the Orange Book is worded in such
    a way as to be subject to your manager's interpretation.
    
    Indeed, retaliation wasn't just tolerated, it was initiated by the very
    manager to whom I went with the Open Door Policy.  He said I "made my
    manager look bad" by bringing up the problem.  He also told me that
    while I had the option of using the Open Door Policy to escalate the
    problem, things would only get worse for me if I did.  Given the things
    that had happened up to that point, I saw no reason to disbelieve him.
    
    During this whole process, I was screamed at, sworn at, called an
    a**hole, told I was stupid (all by my manager), and told that I "just
    don't get it".  Well, I finally "got it" and transferred to another
    group.
    
    Normally, that would be the end of the story.  But now that bogus bad
    review is coming back to haunt me, in the form of evaluation criteria
    for this next round of "transitions" ... in effect, using the Open Door
    Policy is likely to end up costing me my job.
    
    Oh, and by the way ... the issue that I used the Open Door Policy to
    try to get resolved was never even addressed, much less resolved.
    
    So be warned.  Use this policy at your own peril.  My situation proved
    that although policies exist, there's no one going to step to your aid
    to enforce them.
    
    ... Bob
    

    Bob,
    
    Given that your posterior is probably on the line anyway, I'd suggest
    you escalate this issue to Jack Smith - pronto!

    Personally, I wouldnt have signed a review I did not find was to my
    advantage.  I had a situation where I took my review to personnel for a
    "what is your perspective here" kind of discussion before I would sign
    it.  ALL reviews are open to negotiation if you believe they are not
    satisfactory.
    
    Definately bring this one up the ladder.  Now that you are out of the
    area, you may find that this is a little easier to handle.  I hope you
    saved all your documentation and even documented the things the manager
    said (although I had problems with the old your word against his). 
    Gee, I wonder if we had the same manager!!!
    
    -sandy
    

    RE: .33 and .36
    
    Voice from the past.....
    
    Hang in there buddy. We are all on the block now.
    That goes for anyone reading this.
    
    Personally, I come to work ever day, do the job,
    and then go home. Not much pride or reward but a
    paycheck is a paycheck. 
    
    Best of luck to all,
    
    Rick A

    RE .34
    
    If I thought for a second that Jack Smith really cared, I'd have
    escalated it months ago.  FWIW - I think this policy is a nice sounding
    thing that was written primarily for the benefit of the company's
    lawyers (i.e. when someone sues Digital for unfair employment
    practices, the lawyers can then point out that the corporation has this
    neato policy that should have been used to resolve the situation
    internally).
    
    RE .35
    
    I did not sign the review, whereupon my manager wrote on it that I
    refused to sign it and put his own initials there.  I did write a
    rebuttal, which I asked be included in my personnel file along with the
    review.  I also included the review comments from the engineering
    manager I mentioned (because I was essentially "contracted" to his
    organization he was supposed to have input into my review). 
    Ironically, in my review, his positive comments were actually disputed.
    I do not know how much (if any) bearing either my rebuttal or the
    engineering manager's comments will have when my performance is 
    evaluated by those making the downsizing decisions.
    
    As to escalating the matter, I think it would be a complete waste of
    time, and would ultimately only produce negative results.  Besides,
    there are better things for us all to do around here than fight with
    our managers.  I am now in a much more positive environment (isn't it
    interesting how you can transfer to another part of the company and the
    culture is completely different from where you just came) and all I
    really want now is to just put this thing behind me and get on with
    doing the job that this company pays me to do.
    
    I wouldn't even have brought it up, except that I'd hate to see anyone
    else have to go through what I did.  I sincerely wish that upper
    management would either "put up or shut up" when they send messages to
    their employees.  Policies that are made by upper management but are
    then circumvented by middle management are worse than no policies at all.
    
    ... Bob
    

    
>   I did not sign the review, whereupon my manager wrote on it that I
    refused to sign it and put his own initials there.  
           
           I don't remember ever signing my review (maybe once)... is it
           POLICY to have employee sign it?  If not, shouldn't it be?
           
           Steve
           
           PS- I think Mgrs make people sign reviews, ONLY when it's to
           their advantage.

    When working in an engineering group I have always had the opportunity to
    sign and/or refute my review.
    
    When working in a field organization, I didn't even get to READ my
    review until AFTER it was in personnel's hands. So, I never got to sign
    it.
    
    Reviews seem to be done differently depending on where you work.
    
    I don't know if there is  policy on this or not.
    
    Judy
                                                               

    All reviews are SUPPOSED to be signed by the employee.  But, as with
    many things at Digital, policies get changed depending on the manager
    involved.  For example, I have only been asked to sign one review in my
    10+ years.  Of course, there were many years when the manager didn't do
    a review, but that's another story.
    
    Bob:  A word of advice.  Go to Personnel and ask to see your file. 
    Check to make sure your rebuttal is included in the "official" version.

    Definately see your file.  I know I made sure mine was "clean" when I
    left my last job.  It took me a while to stop "looking over my shoulder
    and start trusting" once I started in this new job, but like you said -
    it's pretty strange that things can be so different in each
    organization.
    
    -sandy
    

    You should also know that only "in cycle" reviews can be used for
    layoff selection, meaning at least 12 months must have elapsed since
    the last review.  When our group had to go through the selection
    process, we were given reports generated by Personnel which contained
    the last two performance ratings for each individual in the group.  Any
    reviews done out of cycle did not appear.
    
    Al
    

    I agree, go see your file.
    
    I had a bad experiance with ODP as well, what I learned was:
    
    	don't start unless I am willing to go to KO if need be
    	document everything, and once a mgr is on the distribution list,
    		keep them on it, as I move up the food chain, there-by
    		putting preasure on each level of mgmt to resolve it before
    		it goes any further
    	consider a thank-you, copying the entire distribution and 1 level
    		higher, once the issue is resolved.
    
    I know for a fact that upper mgmt (like Smith) read their mail. 
    Whether they act on it or not is an open question, but they read it,
    and, so far as my experiance is concerned, seem to act.
    
    Obviously, before I would do the above, I would need to be sure in my
    heart that I wanted the visibility.  But, the only way bad mgmt will
    change (if it will change at all) is from the bottom up. Question is,
    at what cost.
    
    BTW, did you use your 'open door resource'?  If you ask me, upper level
    mgrs are the wrong ones for odr's. They should be senior level
    consultants, not managers, IMHO.

    
    
    	My immediate reaction to .33 was something I was told while
    	in the USN.  While complaining to an old salt about it not
    	being right that I should have to serve the Chief FT and the
    	"Gunner" (CWO4) coffee, and then wash thier cups when they 
    	finished with them, I was told that I was right, it was wrong
    	and I really didn't have to do it if I didn't want to.  But
    	he then said, "listen kid, you can lead a horse to water, but
    	you can't make him drink, BUT you can make him wish the ****
    	he did!"  
    
    	Made sense, so I kept my mouth shut and served 'em coffee.  When 
    	I became a petty officer I no longer had to.  Ever since..... I've
    	never "taken advantage" of any open door policy.
    
    

>    All reviews are SUPPOSED to be signed by the employee.  


After I discovered a review in my permanent files that I had neither signed
nor even seen, I asked personnel if it were not part of the P&P for an
employee to know about a review.

They said that this was up to the interpretation of the manager.

...

I agree with the others here that you should review your records on a regular
basis.

al

.45 hints at the basic fallicy of any "Open Door Policy":  In
organization where you can freely do the "Open Door" thing you don't
need such a policy because no one is going to retaliate.  However, 
political slimes where you need the policy to protect people are filled
with folks who are ready to retailiate.  Catch-22.

.38>    As to escalating the matter, I think it would be a complete waste of
.38>    time, and would ultimately only produce negative results.  
    {...}
.38>    I wouldn't even have brought it up, except that I'd hate to see anyone
.38>    else have to go through what I did.      

    One reason to escalate might be to spare someone else from having to
    endure the same.
    
    Management heads are on the block too.  Having such escalations on
    record certainly will not improve the performance review for a manager. 
    Pushing the retribution issue a level or two further would probably
    suffice to get it resolved, simply because it becomes clear that if it
    is not resolved you'll keep pushing and each level of management that
    hasn't resolved it becomes vulnerable to a negative review from their
    next-up.  Probably should be done fairly soon after the fact, however. 
    I'd probably line up the new job and immediately start pushing to fix
    the retaliatory review.
    
    Incidentally, I once tried using ODP and felt it was a sham.  Problem
    as I perceived it was that the Personnel consultant involved felt he
    was not there as an independent objective facilitator but instead "to
    represent the corporation's interests" (he said something like those
    words).  I had no real problem with that view except that he then
    seemed to assume that "the corporation's interests" was synonomous with
    "the manager's position" and thus inevitably opposed to the employee's
    concerns in any dispute.
    
    I felt the result of my foray into the ODP was a mediocre success, only
    because it provided poor communication about topics that had had no
    communication previously.  It's a good idea in concept, but loses
    something in the implementation (unless all parties involved are truly
    exceptional individuals, in which case there's likely no need for it at
    all anyway!).

RE .45

I get your point, but I'd just like to make the observation that Digital isn't
the military, and I think if this company were to apply military mentality to
their management techniques, they'd be committing corporate suicide.  Every
high-tech company relies on the creativity and initiative of it's employees 
for it's continued existence ... and nothing kills creativity and initiative
quite as efficiently as a military style of management.

Also, I'd like to point out that the corporation went to a lot of time, effort,
and expense to revise the Open Door Policy last year, and then sent every DEC
(or is that D.E.C.) employee a brochure telling them what a wonderful policy
they'd come up with and exactly how to use it.  If they don't want us to use
this policy, then why'd they do that? (Rhetorical question, I already supplied
my views on the subject.)

BTW - I wouldn't object to getting my boss a cup of coffee, but I'll be damned
if I'd wash his cup ... :^)

RE: .46

>>    All reviews are SUPPOSED to be signed by the employee.  

And that's one aspect of the real problem here ... Digital has all these nicely
worded policies.  And everybody knows how they're SUPPOSED to work ... and
nearly everybody admits that they DON'T work the way they're supposed to.  I
think you summed up the reason for that rather nicely ...

>>    They said that this was up to the interpretation of the manager.

And that is really the heart of the problem ... there's no consistent way in
which the policies are applied.  My former boss said essentially the same thing.
It's often confusing working in a company where the implementation of corporate
policies is not consistent from group to group.  That confusion costs the
company in a lot of ways ... low morale, lack of trust, hesitancy in situations
that call for bold action, and many more ways that don't show up on any
manager's metric sheets.  Say what you will, but I think people tend to work
harder and smarter when they know where they stand with management.  While
some parts of Digital are better than others in this respect, I think it's
a part of our "culture" that is generally holding us back from becoming the
company that the visionaries among us feel we can become.

>>    I agree with the others here that you should review your records on a 
>>    regular basis.

Sound advice indeed ... what goes in your personnel record is apparently also
a matter of interpretation.  I have a friend who checked his personnel record
upon transferring to another job only to find a review that was quite different
in content than the one he had received and signed ... surprise !!!

RE .48
        
>>    Incidentally, I once tried using ODP and felt it was a sham.  Problem
>>    as I perceived it was that the Personnel consultant involved felt he
>>    was not there as an independent objective facilitator but instead "to
>>    represent the corporation's interests" (he said something like those
>>    words).  I had no real problem with that view except that he then
>>    seemed to assume that "the corporation's interests" was synonomous with
>>    "the manager's position" and thus inevitably opposed to the employee's
>>    concerns in any dispute.

Again, I think it's because of the leeway given for "interpretation" at an
individual level.  During my situation, I ended up dealing with two Personnel
consultants.  The first one took basically the same position as you describe.
The second interpreted her role quite a bit differently, and was very helpful
from my viewpoint.

As you said, it's basically a good idea, but it loses something in the
implementation.  It loses that because it's too open to interpretation.  And
although there are "Open Door Managers" in charge of being the ultimate
arbitrators in the process, that's a bit like letting the fox guard the
hen house ... by the time you've escalated things all the way to the Open
Door Manager, you've already been through enough to wish you'd never heard
of the Open Door Policy.

FWIW - After going through the experience once, you'd have to put a gun to
my head and threaten to use it before I'd ever consider using the ODP again.

... Bob

    re: .49
    
    most of these policies are a result of lawsuits brought over the
    years where companies have lost in the courts, the results have
    been policies, like these, that protect the company in a court case
    and/or are the direct result of government regulations....
    
    they are written with an eye toward the legal aspects, to protect
    the company...anyone who thinks differently is kidding themselves..
    
    

A few replies ago, someone suggested that we are faced with a Catch-22.  In
organizations that NEED to use ODP, it is liekly to fail.  In those which don't,
well, we'll never know.

But do NOT assume that "management" always "wins".  First off, it is hard to
believe that anyone can win in what rapidly becomes a no-win situation.  

Mnay years ago I had a situation with one of my reports.  Following a year
long deteriorating situation, including verbal warnings, written warnings, and
intercessions by our HR Consultant, I gave the person what I felt was a well
documented and justified performance review.

You guessed it - the person went ballistic.  I directed the person to HR and 
ODP and the next thing I knew, both I and my immediate manager were on the ODP
carpet - NOT for our actions but rather, for allowing the person to cause
"noise" further up the line.  The HR consultant "suggested" that I embellish
the person's review, give a decent increase, and then pass the person on to
some other unsuspecting hiring manager.  To my own shame and regret, I gave in
and someone else inherited my problem.  I was curious a few TFSO's ago and
looked in ELF to discover that person X isn't here anymore.

What should this, and other notes on the subject, tell you ???  Well, I have
worked places were ODP works just fine, and that includes a couple sites in DEC.
I have also worked places where there was no commitment to anything other than
the APPEARANCE of an unbiased process.  I truely wish that I could have 
unquestioning faith in ODP, but I am old and (hopefully) wise enough to test
the water before I dive in.  The sword of a poorly implemented ODP cuts both 
ways.

mj

    
    Re .49
    
    	That my experience occurred while in the military is academic.
    	The point being made, then and now, was that being right doesn't
    	assure success/victory/justice.  There are the "right" things to
    	do in a given situation, and then there are the "smart" things to
    	do in that same situation.  Not necessarily the same.
    

> ...The HR consultant "suggested" that I embellish
> the person's review, give a decent increase, and then pass the person on to
> some other unsuspecting hiring manager.

	With advice such as this emanating from HR, is it any wonder
    why this company is in such a pathetic state?  I suppose in order
    to keep a good employee, the same HR person might also recommend
    giving the employee a very average (if not poor) review as well
    (so that nobody else will want to hire them)?

				  -davo

I there report on my experience with ODP.  No action, May to August.

(Although that's better than the nightmares reported in 3.33 and 3.51!)

    
    Well DEC's ODP works so well Palmer wants an Ethics office established.
    If this isn't a sad state of affairs,I don't know what is.

    Just asking: will we have a VP in charge of ethics? what a job!
    
    Ken

    I just hope that VP of Ethics doesn't become an oxymoron ...
    
    Steve

    
    set mode=cynical
    
    the only open door I have ever come across in DEC is the one marked
    "EXIT". Any other open door led to humiliation, usually. Exceptionally
    it led to something else, but that was real rae in 1983, let alone
    today.
    
    An awful lot of us are using the ODP, too.
    
    Sad, eh, for the company whose ethic was "do the right thing"?
    
    I remember what happend to Ed Fortmiller.
    
    /a
    

    maybe Mr. Oxy Moron should be appt'd to the Veep of Ethics!

    The OPD policy is nothing but a joke!  I've seen it used in a couple of
    instances, and tried it myself just recently...  The only thing that
    happened in all of these cases, was basically - mgmt sided with mgmt,
    and the employee was left right where s/he started.  Scr*w*d!
    
    B

	This was probably said before.....but it really depends on
	your manager.....

	At the present time, I have a manager that I can interrupt
	just about anytime, and who will listen and *always* get 
	back to me.

	Mikki N.

    
    .-1
    
    At your other job right?  Not at Digital.
    
    
    

	If it "depends on your manager," then there's no point in having the
	policy.

	Roy

    In a long-ago session on EEO supervision, after viewing a film on four
    case-studies where managers suffered (but less than the employees
    involved), I asked how the open-door policy would have done better.
    
    The instructor looked around the room, said, "It's your open-door
    policy; you are the ones implementing it; what would you have done?"
    
    What an education.  Few in the room were comfortable with, let alone
    familiar with, any orange-book-based policy.  They answered from their
    past experience, upbringing, reasoning.... everything except policy.
    They were being honest, and I hope I'm not telling tales out of school.
    But here's the bottom line.  Those who manage, define the outcome by
    their behavior.  Just like driving laws: on the road what the drivers
    actually do, as much as what police do, defines the driving environment.
    
    I also thought it curious that a followup class, "Remedial
    Familiarization with Digital's Open Door Policy", was never announced.
    I took this to mean that it is up to us to nurture the policy, there
    was unlikly to be any deus-ex-machina implementer-descending-from-the-
    clouds. 
    
      

    
    
    Ah, the Open Door Policy.  I tried that one a little bit ago.  Man, did
    I learn quick what a joke it was!
    
    I had a problem with my immediate manager and, after having tried to
    correct the problem, brought it up with his manager.  I was taken into
    a conference room (no more than four feet away from occupied offices)
    by the "higher-up" manager and had my butt chewed out BIG TIME for
    "bothering me with these problems", as the manager stated.  Not only
    was I reprimanded, it was within earshot of many people, AND a personnel
    representative was there in TOTAL agreement with the manager.  It was
    completely two-against-one!
    
    In the end, they said that the manager will write a formal reprimand/
    warning and get it to me (and to the personnel rep) ASAP.  I sat idly
    by with my lawyer waiting for this to happen.  It never did.  I assume
    that someone up above pointed out that they were going against the
    open door policy.
    
    Of course, I never received an apology nor an explaination.  Not a word
    was ever mentioned about the incident.  Perhaps it's on my record and I
    was never sent a copy.  Who knows.
    
    Oh, that higher-up manager who doesn't believe in the Open Door Policy?
    He was just made a Vice President.
    
    
    
    Carl.

    
    Why don't you check with "Personnel" or whoever handles it and check
    out your permanent record for any formal reprimand?
    
    IMHO, you must always be cautious when employing the "Open Door
    Policy".
    
    Best of luck,
    
    Dennis
    

>    IMHO, you must always be cautious when employing the "Open Door
>    Policy".
    
    Especially when you're not quite sure where the door leads to... :-)

    I am about to find out what this "Open door" is all about.
    I do not have a problem with my manager or my managers manager. BUT
    someone somewhere in our organization has decided that I should not be
    paid 100% of a claim that I put in for overtime (hours worked beyond my
    normal amount of daily hours) The project was HUGE and will bring
    Digital BIG money. The amount that I have claimed is substantial
    (approx 6 months salary) The work that had to be carried out was too
    much for one person and many mails for extra resources later, I was
    still alone. At no time during the project did anyone at Digital say
    "Sorry but we cannot pay you overtime" or "Don't work past 6pm. Infact
    I received many mails of appreciation. My loyalty to Digital is 100%
    but Digital's loyalty to me is about 20% (A calculation based on the
    amount that has been proposed I except. Digital does not have a problem
    of whether I was working or not but rather that I did not have my
    managers approval for the hours worked. Digital are still trying to
    tell the customer how to dance. Not a wise move at this time. "Sorry Mr
    Customer but we only have one person available and your turnkey system
    will not be ready on day x as he will only work from 9 to 6 but please 
    send the cheque to...."  Not once was I asked not to work additional
    hours. only to be told as a senior I should "Manage my time" Now to me
    that means if I don't receive renumeration for hours worked, I take
    time off. Much as I would like to have some time off (about six months
    in this case) I have clients problems to attend to (And time to manage)
    External legal litigation in a civil court is an option..I have legal
    aid (Legal insurance)...so legal matters won't cost me a cent! BUT what
    will my working relationaship be with Digital??? Maybe by the time I
    get to court Digital won't exist.........
    
    ......... 
    
    

Hmmm, I believe that JOBURG:: is in South Africa, yes?

I have no idea how labor laws, etc. are there.  In the US, those of
us in Wage Class 4 are considered "exempt" employees.  This generally
means that we are "exempt" from receiving any overtime pay at all.
(except for very specific situations like on-call, getting called-in after
hours, etc.)

All of us understand this, and most of us work the extra hours anyway.

You need to find out what the expected norm and legal standards are in
your locale before taking further steps.  

I was once repeatedly promised
by Digital personnel and several levels of management (verbally, of course),
that I would be paid overtime while working on a customer project.

The customer was perfectly willing to pay Digital extra for the OT. (WITH
a built-in profit for Digital!).  

Bottom line, Digital could never figure out how to pay us the overtime, and so
lost out on the healthy margin that they would have made on the overtime
payments.  

Kevin

It's not clear from  your reply as to whether you are entitled to overtime
payments in your contract of employment.

If you are, it's clear cut, go see a lawyer now, they'll have your money 
very quickly indeed.

If you are not entitled to overtime payments in your contract then what led 
you to believe you would receive them? If your management led you to 
believe you would be paid and you have any evidence in a written form or a 
witness then you should again see a lawyer. You have a good case.

If you have no basis for your claim and you just assumed you would get
overtime then I doubt that your claim is valid.

Dave.

    In my contract of employment it clearly states "You will be required to
    work overtime and will be payed for this overtime according to local laws.
    I would have prefered to have been at home but priorities are priorities.
    Not the exact words but similar. Thanks all for your support; Ivan.

    I have just heard that the open door policy (The door has been closed
    maybe?) is not the correct forum. So now it will take its course in a
    "Grievance Procedure". for those who know what this is: "71461,261"
    Keep in contact when I'm gone (if) and I will let you know what
    happened.

re.72:

Ask if you can tape the meeting or take someone with you to the meeting. 
Be prepared for the defence. For example:-

1 You didn't work the hours.
2 Overtime is only paid when approved in advance.
3 The work could have been accomplished in normal hours.

Make some notes beforehand to counter such points. Refer to your contract.
If you can't counter a point raised then make no comment other than 
"noted". Don't concede anything without taking legal advice.

Dave.

    >Overtime is only paid when approved in advance
    
    This is the point that my management have as defence. As you are aware
    "Joburg" is our node in Johannesburg, South Africa. The Digital office
    opened in July 1993 and unfortunately I received the "Overtime Policy"
    in either March or April: At this point I had worked 90% of the
    overtime claimed. The project started in November 93 and ended June 94.
    At all times were my management aware that I was working extended hours 
    on this project. Now if management believes that I would would work
    without compensation; then they avoided it on purpose. I don't have a
    problem excepting time off as compensation, but then it should be in
    reasonable biteable chunks. Otherwise I will have Friday and Monday off
    for the next 50 Years.   Ivan.
      

    
    
    So you worked 30 hours a week overtime for nine months?
    
    
    Mike
    
    

    
    and didn't turn in a time card?

>    and didn't turn in a time card?

    What's a time card? (Well, I know because I've worked for close to
    three years in the U.S. now, but before coming here I had no need
    for time cards or didn't even know such things existed and couldn't
    care less even if I knew somebody in the U.S. needed them. ;-)
    
    ...petri
    

    RE .75 ....+40 hours a month for 6 months......

    Names have been removed...to protect the... 
    A message to ....
    
    ----------------------------------------------------
    I am feeling victimized (By Digital Management) about the issue of "No 
    authorization for overtime worked" on the xxxxxx Project. My commitment 
    to the success of this project was what Digital expected from me. At
    the onset of the project, I committed myself as a Digital employee to   
    work at this Project knowing that for the following 7 months we would
    be working extended hours. I do not believe for one moment that any of  
    those people that attended the planning meetings <My direct manager
    included!>(Digital xx, Digital xxxxxxx, xxxxxxx, XXXX and xxxxxxx) at  
    the onset of the project believed that we would work an 8 hour day. The 
    project time schedules were extremely tight and without the many long  
    hours worked, this project would not have succeeded. The success of
    this project has been noted to me with appreciation from Digital XX,    
    Digital Xxxxxxx, Xxxxxxx, XXXX and Xxxxxx. I am not alone and was part 
    of a team. Ethically (My own ethics definately but also those of       
    Digital's when it wants (needed) to make this a "Reference site") I     
    would not have even thought of informing our client that I would only  
    work an eight hour day after the requirements at the onset of the
    project were that the work be completed by certain dates to achieve the 
    milestones required.
    
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Somewhere someone is forgetting that the Client's requirements were for
    this project, for everyone to work as a team. Not for one person to
    excuse himself/herself after 8 hours. GET REAL!!!! Think Client and you
    will be an asset to Digital. Think bonehead and you are a liability. 
    
    Now I,m going to go blow some steam off ....I think this calls for some
    scuba diving ....yes yes now were talking!      Ciao all, Ivan. Ps
    Anyone want to buy my pile of 50 memo's of praise?    Ivan. 
    
    

I thought it would be the good old tried and tested "in advance" argument. 
This is a very common tactic used to save a few pennies by unscrupulous 
companies.

If you can show that your management 

1) knew you were working extra hours
2) recognised the need to work extra hours

then go and get legal advice now.

Recognising the need to work extra hours could just be a resourcing plan
shared with management. 

Good luck,
Dave.

    It is already 2o+ years ago, but I vaguely remember from going through
    a chemicals company union regulations on paying and payroll that
    requiring an employee to work over 52 hours/week and some number of
    hours within any 48 hours was illegal. This was in the state of NY and
    it could have been a safety consideration.
    
    I don't know what South African rules are like but you just could
    expose Digital to other trouble if you get them to pay you for this 
    overtime (and admit that they required you to work these kinds of hours). 
    
    
    Al
    

>================================================================================
>Note 3.81                       Open Door Policy                        81 of 81
>ULYSSE::ROEMER                                       13 lines  25-JUL-1994 09:18
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                         -< 6 months without OT pay?? >-
>
>    It is already 2o+ years ago, but I vaguely remember from going through
>    a chemicals company union regulations on paying and payroll that
>    requiring an employee to work over 52 hours/week and some number of
>    hours within any 48 hours was illegal. This was in the state of NY and
>    it could have been a safety consideration.
>    
There are similar rules in France on the number of overtime hours a person
can work in consequetive. 

Go for it.

Ren�

    Digital and I came to an agreement and paid to me 90% of my claim.
    A far cry from 20%! Thanks to all who wrote memo's. BTW I cannot get
    my controller to Put in writing the words "You are hereby AUTHORIZED
    to work on xx/xxx/xx!!! What does happen is that this person writes a
    memo to me acknowledging my request for overtime.
    
Thanks to all who supported me and informed me. 
    
    There is no such thing as open door policy.....You want to open the
    door, get an axe a BIG axe. The only time the door is open is when
    there's no one 'ome.
    
    Cheers All regards Ivan.