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Conference heron::euro_swas_ai

Title:Europe-Swas-Artificial-Intelligence
Moderator:HERON::BUCHANAN
Created:Fri Jun 03 1988
Last Modified:Thu Aug 04 1994
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:442
Total number of notes:1429

29.0. "Don't shoot the messanger...." by HERON::ROACH (TANSTAAFL !) Thu Sep 15 1988 10:54

    I just received the following from Dikk Kelly in the US. I offer it to
    you all without comment, other than the fact that I applaude his
    frankness and courage for writing this. I suggest that any comments
    which you do have should be posted here with a CC: to Dikk. 
    
    Pat
        ******************************************************    
    
                       I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:      14-Sep-1988 08:13 CET
                                        From:       
                                                   KELLY@LAOTZU@ISTG@MRGATE 
                                        Dept:       
                                        Tel No:     

TO:  SERAIN@A1NSTC
TO:  ROACH@A1NSTC


Subject: dealing with the AITC


Greetings,

           Since I very often have to interact with outlanders in the 
performance of my job (now working with German, French, Italian, and Japanese 
customers and Digits), and since this is occasionally an intensely frustrating 
experience, I thought I'd do my small bit for inter-AI-group communication and 
offer one humble peon's view of how the AITC sees the world. I hope it will 
help folks outside the AITC who have to interact with us. And, hopefully, it 
will make my own job in Marlborough easier.

National Reputations
--------------------
           If you are coming to the AITC, you may want to remember that we all 
talk to each other here. I have buddies in XCON, in Tools Development, in 
Select, Fellowship, Training, Marketing, and every other group. And we all 
exchange information. So, reputation, in this environment, becomes very 
important. If you abuse someone in one group, all of the other groups hear
about it. If you do someone a favor, it becomes widely known. So, in dealing
with the AITC, you may find that your group's (or country's) reputation
has preceded you - which may smooth your path or make it impossible for you 
to get anything useful out of Marlborough.

Particular Groups
------------------
           Certain groups and certain countries have established reputations 
in the AITC. It is obviously completely unfair to judge an entire country 
based upon the actions of a few individuals, but it happens. 
           The reputation of one country in Europe, for example, (discretely 
naming no names) has been poisoned because of what some people here have seen 
as arrogance, spitefulness, and impatience on the part of Digits in that 
country. I have had great trouble in the last four weeks lining up interviews 
with other AITC Digits for a visiting KE from this country because no one 
wanted to deal with him or his customer. This guy is very pleasant, but his 
country's rep is so bad that it limits him.
           The Japanese, on the other hand, are generally well regarded here
because of their practice of establishing a relationship first and doing 
serious business later. However, they also have a reputation for getting what 
they want by hook or by crook, and the word here is not to commit to anything 
with DEC Japan unless you have a great deal of time to devote to their project
and a clear understanding of what you're getting into. 
          Australians are well-liked in the AITC because they always appear to 
request, rather than demand, information; and they always consider offering 
something in return. 


Reciprocity Is All In The AITC
-------------------------------    
     Many people here have, for a long time, viewed DEC Europeans in general as 
leeches (Pardon me if this sounds harsh or scathing. I'm only reporting, 
not pontificating.) who demand information and never consider offering anything 
in return. (My own experience with DEC Europe has been checkered: mostly good,
some dismal.) And DEC Europeans have often seemed a little schizophrenic to some
of us: insisting that we give them hours of time and resources to further their 
AI efforts, and simultaneously insisting that they are perfectly capable of 
doing the work themselves. 
     Unfortunately, this kind of misunderstanding between AI groups means that 
someone's visit to the AITC is often wasted. (I have seen a new marketing 
director from one country be utterly shunned and avoided as soon as people 
found out where she was from. I'm sure she got only 1% of the help she could 
have gotten if she were from another country.)
     
Suggestions
------------
      It grieves me to see pleasant, affable visitors proscribed because of 
their group's reputation. And it's best not to get into this pickle if you can 
help it. Toward that end, let me offer some unsolicited advice to visitors. 

     To get the most out of dealing with the AITC, you might want to consider 
these helpful household hints:

- Like it or not, when you come to the AITC you represent your country. I think 
the AITC looks far more kindly on certain countries because some first-rate 
people have visited from there. Yaz Yamamoto, Taizo Otahara, and Kazu
Matsudaira from DEC Japan, Dario Tognazzi from DEC Italia, and Tom McBride from
DEC Oz have all boosted their countries reputations here. They've made it easier
for all who come after them.

- If you want something from the AITC, bring something to offer in return.
All of us here would like to see demos or presentations on projects going on 
in other parts of the world. We don't see ourselves as the hub of the universe 
here - only as the largest group in DEC doing AI work. And ALL AI work in 
other parts of the globe is of interest to us. If you visit with a demo of a 
tool we've never seen or a program you're devising for a local customer, and 
offer to show people, you'll find several dozen people who recognize you as a 
colleague, rather than as a leech. And we'll all be more likely to want to 
offer your group help.

- Please do not promise what you yourself cannot deliver. Do not promise tools 
to customers unless your own group is building the tool. We don't like being
furiously importuned for a tool because someone has promised it to a customer
somewhere. A tool does not exist until it is released.

- Use the carrot, not the stick. Some people here enjoy travelling. And you 
may be surprised at how much work you can get out of someone here by offering 
them a chance to visit your homebase.

- If you request help, please do not resent that help. Picking someone's
technical brains for two hours, and then explaining to them that there are 
plenty of people back home who could do a better job of the project is begging
for future adamant refusals of assistance.

- Please remember that the information on projects and individuals that leaks 
out through official channels is incomplete and occasionally wrong. I have 
seen a dozen foreign visitors (KEs, managers, marketeers, sales reps) who came 
to the AITC with explicit and detailed shopping lists only to scratch their 
heads in puzzlement over the fact that so much more was going on at the AITC 
than they had been told, and that their lists were so out of date. The fact 
that I've consulted on financial AI projects with 43 customers in the last 
two years surprised people who thought DEC's only financial business was in 
OLTP. Fellowship and Select have done work in every paradigm and every domain 
from Telecomm to Manufacturing to PC to CASE. And the people in our groups have 
experience in everything from image analysis to chemical processing to retail 
banking. If you come to the AITC prepare to fish around. Come with an open mind.
There is much more experience here than gets promulgated in newsletters. But 
you can only gain access to it by informally befriending people.



     I hope this is of some use to someone. Anyone reading it can probably
guess that it is born out of experience with watching visitors painfully 
flail around and rail against people in the AITC when they could, in fact,
have gone home with a bagful of good ideas and a fistful of useful contacts.
Maybe this will be of some use to those folks.

Comments welcomed,

Dikk Kelly



T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
29.1the peon explainsISTG::KELLYgrasshopperWed Sep 28 1988 23:2080
Greetings,


Some explanations from the peon:


       1) I should explain that the letter in the last note was a private 
correspondence between myself and some friends at DEC Europe. It was not 
actually written for public distribution. And it was inserted into the notes 
file without my knowledge. 

       But the note was added to the file because the person who received 
it thought its conclusions valid, and decided - with the best of intentions -
that a larger audience would benefit from hearing how peons in the AITC 
see DEC Europe.

 
      2) The only change I would make to the letter is to extend the list
of excellent people working in Europe who are redefining European reputations
in the AITC through their intelligence, diligence, and earnest effort. The list 
should especially include people such as Andrew Buchanan and Manfred Schlueter,
who have left such favorable impressions here that all who follow them will
benefit.


      3) The intention behind the letter was to prod people into questioning 
how they treat AITCers. We are not DEC's only legitimate AI group. We are part 
of a huge network of people doing AI work. And yet when people come to visit
they often come only to plunder, not to exchange. A lot of folks here would
like to step down from the pedestal. We are just as hungry for information as 
DEC Europeans are, and the letter is a plea for more equitable dealings between 
our respective groups.
        The letter's purpose is not to generate ill-feeling between AITCers
and Europeans. It is to expose ill-feeling which already exists - and shouldn't.


      4) The response from people in the AITC who have seen this letter 
has been hugely encouraging. I was told that someone "had finally broached the 
largest problem that AITCers have with DEC Europe", a problem that has 
not improved in the last year, a problem with no resolution in sight until the
AITC and European AI groups begin to think of reciprocity. I was told that
some Europeans would probably wish to push hot needles under my fingernails
in response, but that no one who read it could deny the letter's veracity. 
In fact, I was strongly advised to add the letter to a notesfile to draw 
attention to a longstanding problem which was not being addressed by either 
side.
     
      The response from DEC Europe that I've been privy to has also been 
hugely encouraging. Since sending the letter, we've received a list of AI 
demos given at DECWorld, a catalog of AI customers doing DEC business in one 
European country, job offers, lists of local AI projects in two countries, 
offers of Bordeaux rouge et chocolat extra fin, lists of relevant Digits to 
contact for particular AI domains and paradigms in two European local offices, 
and offers from four European KEs (in four different countries) for assistance 
in joint AITC-European AI projects.  Evidently, the letter had its intended 
effect of encouraging exchange between the AITC and DEC Europe.

     Since the letter was written, the group I work in has had visits from 
KEs from DEC Deuschland, DEC Italia, and, soon, DEC France. We have done AI 
training and E.S. prototyping work with customers from France, Germany, Italy, 
Oz, and Japan. We have entertained senior level managers from Italian, and, 
next week, French, and German customers. We have distributed AITC newsbriefs to 
DEC Europeans, along with lists of customer AI work being done in Fellowship, 
AITC organization charts, lists of contact names, synopses of AITC policy 
planning meetings, and answers to several dozen specific questions by DEC 
Europeans. 

     We welcome this kind of exchange. And if it took only one letter to
redress such a longstanding imbalance in our relations, then, perhaps, what 
we should concentrate on exchanging first is mail.


     Comments welcome.

                Not actually such a scurrilous rogue as some would claim,

                                                                   Dikk Kelly
                               

29.2Why it was posted...HERON::ROACHTANSTAAFL !Thu Sep 29 1988 18:1834
    Just a quick follow-up from the rouge who had the gall to post a
    contraversial note in the file. My only apology is to Dikk for not
    checking with him first. I will, however, explain my motivations
    for anyone interested:
    
    I knew that I was not the only one who had received the memo but
    had no idea how wide a distribution it had (VAXmail source). I
    interpreted it in the same manner that Dikk explained his motivation
    in 29.1; i.e., it wasn't intended to point blame, but to bring to
    light existing ill-feelings, justified or not. 
    
    I felt that I had two choices; a) to do nothing while the memo quietly
    spread around Europe festering more ill-feelings as people
    (mis)interpreted it in their own way or b) get it out in the open by
    posting it in this file and, once the dust settles, move forward with
    its real intent of promoting a better working relationship amongst our
    worldwide AI community.
    
    This is a relatively closed notes file and I know most of you both
    professionally and socially. I definitely wouldn't describe ourselves
    as timid, given the way we good-naturedly beat each other up in
    and out of the classroom during our Forums. At the time I posted
    the note I had the intention of defusing a potential problem instead
    of starting one. I'm sorry for anyone who may have taken its contents
    personnally. I certainly didn't intend it that way by posting it
    and I'm confident that Dikk didn't either when he wrote it.
    
    If anyone thinks that the note should be deleted, contact me privately
    via VAXmail (HERON::) and I'll remove it.
    
    Sincerly,
    
    pat
    VAXmail
29.3Met a nice leech one day.....YIPPEE::FITZGIBBONJoe Fitzgibbon EAITC ValbonneFri Sep 30 1988 09:4210
    
    Pat,
    
    	Nice of you to apologise but I do not think you need to. If
    we are to understand each other then this kind of info needs to
    be communicated - and I think we are all mature enough not to react
    in a hasty or ill-judged fashion. So don't you dare delete that
    note.
    
    Joe.
29.4at the risk of beating a dead horseISTG::KELLYgrasshopperMon Oct 24 1988 20:3769

    Thought a sample of the unsolicited responses I've received from Europe 
and the AITC as a result of the first note might be of some remote interest to 
someone. (The letter has circulated beyond this notesfile.) I'm preserving 
anonimity here, but if someone recognizes a quote from her/himself, please 
feel free to elaborate. I have not changed a word in any of these fragments, 
and feel the quotes represent the tone and central points of each person's 
letter or call.

from Europe:
"I have been enjoying your latest missives and, in particular found your note 
on "dealing with the AITC"; it's all too easy for us here to fall into the 
traps you highlight - sponges & scorpions abound in ANY enterprise."

from the AITC:
"Congratulations to your note. Really good! You are right in terms of your 
remarks mentioned in the letter, however, you're rather polarizing differences 
by talking or stressing it too much. I'm pretty cautious about making any 
judgement about a person upfront, you're dealing with individuals not with 
members of group who have per definition the same characteristics. The group 
they are coming from might give you certain indications about what you may be 
expecting, however, I try to place those expectations very far back in my mind. 
Thanks alot for your explanations in your reply and don't get my comments 
above wrong. You are dealing more often with AITC outsiders than I do, 
therefore, therefore, this is probably a more pragmatic, practical approach 
and guideline than my general philosophy or ... ?"
{editor's note: ellipsis inserted by writer, not editor}

from the US:
"Dikk, I really really do appreciate the communications you've started 
with your letter, don't excuse yourself for it!!"

from the AITC:
"RAT OWN! RAT OWN! Tell it like it is! But we don't say leaches in my group. 
We say brainsuckers. I'm sick of being the trough for those guys to feed in.
I go there and they stiff me. Then they come here and expect a day of my time."
(Amurkin editor's note: "RAT OWN" is slanguage for "Right on", an exclamation
of strong approval formerly in common usage, now employed as humourous code 
between people of a certain generation in the US.)

phonecall from the AITC (approximate quote):
"They feel over there that you are making up a problem that doesn't exist,
and that you're picking on people who don't deserve to be picked on.
They don't know anything about anyone being turned down by anybody in the AITC.
And it gives all of us a bad name when you say things like that."

phonecall from the AITC (approximate quote):
"Hey. When I told you to get those people away from me, I didn't expect World 
War III. Don't back down. It's tough telling the truth when other people don't 
want to hear it. But Truth is mightier than politics!"

from Europe:
"Reciprocity:
        I understand your concerns regarding reciprocity. To say nothing of the
fact that a little reciprocity shows polite consideration I think that an
exchange of views, ideas and experiences can only helpful. please let me know
if can help."  

from the AITC:
"I have had the same problems with the same people that you mention in 
NOTE 29.0. But I don't think it will do any good to tell anyone about it. 
I know you. You're always trying to improve everything. But it doesn't do any 
good. In order to get people to change they have to admit they have a problem. 
and that's not going to happen. They'll say you have the problem or that you 
are the problem. Nobody ever blames themselves when they screw up. You have to
do what I do. Just say no. When they ask for something, just say no. Then they
become someone else's problem."

29.5SELECT::KELLYgrasshopperFri Sep 15 1989 01:1755
    
    I thought I would add just one last update to this ancient note.
    
    I just spent some time with the Marketing director I (inadvertently,
    I assure you, but very wrongly) maligned in that letter long ago.
    (the start of this particular note)
    
    This was someone who, by rights, should have had it in for me; but who
    was not only entirely gracious and pleasant, but sincerely interested
    in resolving any difficulties, and moving beyond them, and solidifying
    the business arrangements between our groups - allowing both our groups
    to help each other.
    
    A more charming, intelligent, and capable person I have never met.
    And I humbly publicly apologize for any problems that past letter may 
    have caused for this person or for anyone in her country. 
    Any apparent nastiness was purely unintentional. And the bile in that 
    note was the result of past problems with other people that have long 
    since been resolved.
    
    The letter itself, thinking in retrospect, was probably the result of
    several bad days in a row at the office, my nasty habit of expressing
    opinions too freely, and more time on my hands than I should have had.
    The overly open and opinionated habit is one that I think I'm stuck with.
    But the freetime and bad days are gone, so no further crabby notes should
    be forthcoming.
    
    I have to say, while I'm in the process of trying to clear to air here,
    that over the last year I've had the rare good fortune to associate
    with a lot of fine European folks: customers and Digits both. They have
    been uniformly talented and affable people, and I regret any inconvenience 
    or raised blood pressures that original letter generated.
    
    That letter did give me the chance to meet some great people from
    Europe though. It has been an ice-breaker for a long time now. European 
    folks would stroll by here with a US friend showing them around and be 
    told my name as they walked by. "Oh. So that's you," they'd say, eying me
    with a smile, "the one in the notesfile." Then we'd end up in a long 
    conversation together or over at my house eating supper with my family. 
    So, it wasn't a complete disaster after all.
    
    But I had to scribble one last response here, and say that after coming 
    full circle, I'm ready to write a very different note now praising and
    thanking European folks for not only not closing this notesile to
    cranky foreigners, but for actually befriending and working with the cranky
    bugger who wrote what must have seemed a pretty surly and mean-spirited
    letter.
    
    And thanks, too, to the Marketing director who impressed me so much
    with her forbearance and graciousness that I had to - just out of fairness -
    put in this one last reply.
    
    Much Wiser,
               Dikk Kelly